The Islam Thread. Page 4

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  • Moot_Point 17 Feb 2013 15:10:14 4,603 posts
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    PhoenixFlames wrote:
    I couldn't listen to more than 10 seconds of that twat Muslim on the video.
    Haha. As I listened it made me laugh a little because the guy trying a little too hard to convince Dawkins his point was valid. Very ironic.

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • Moot_Point 17 Feb 2013 15:57:41 4,603 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    Islam is complete bollocks. The same can be said about Christianity. By moving away from the shackles of Christianity, Europe is arguably a better and more open and tolerable society. Religion didn't bring about these changes, it was the rejection of religion that brought enlightenment.
    Very well put, I agree. The thought of Islam trying to replace the declining religions in the west is a scary thought to me to be honest. (Scary as in a civil war as people ultimately reject religion as a form of mass control)

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • Ziz0u 17 Feb 2013 16:40:51 8,648 posts
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    Please don't insult my art.
  • Cadence 17 Feb 2013 16:47:49 1,696 posts
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    /looks at bedsheets

    /sadface
  • RedSparrows 17 Feb 2013 16:53:31 24,166 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    Graveland wrote:
    Islam is complete bollocks. The same can be said about Christianity. By moving away from the shackles of Christianity, Europe is arguably a better and more open and tolerable society. Religion didn't bring about these changes, it was the rejection of religion that brought enlightenment.
    Very well put, I agree. The thought of Islam trying to replace the declining religions in the west is a scary thought to me to be honest. (Scary as in a civil war as people ultimately reject religion as a form of mass control)

    It's simply not enough to break society into 'religious' or 'irreligious' and expect one to be evil and one good. Enlightenment/Romanticism might be a more useful division, as both can be religious/not religious, and even then, one isn't 'good' and one isn't 'bad'. Religious people can be scientists, and scientists can be religious, or not, or whatever.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 16:53:59 17-02-2013

    Edited by RedSparrows at 16:54:30 17-02-2013
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 16:54:59
    EuroStalker wrote:
    Religion has a purpose, to instil moral values. Humans are not born knowing what is good and bad. It is kind of a knowledge which is passed from parent to child, mainly through beliefs.

    Without religion, human race would be no different from animals. It is people's beliefs throughout history which has lead to the ascent of man. Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Mayans, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, Indians etc. all had belief systems which saw them develop and evolve.

    Atheism is for simple minded, insular people. If left to Atheists, semen on bed sheets would be considered great art.
    Sweeping generalisation tbh. It's possible to be a decent person with a sound moral compass with or without religion imo.
  • RedSparrows 17 Feb 2013 16:55:27 24,166 posts
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    Also, Eurostalker, whut.
  • RedSparrows 17 Feb 2013 16:57:33 24,166 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    But they are absolutely wrong.
    And how is that your problem? Or Dawkin's problem. It's a bigger version of going up to people playing Rock Band and going "You're not really playing that, STOP HAVING FUN".

    So what if you know it isn't real, they're happy with it.
    It really isn't the same as enjoying Rock Band. Rock Band is real for one thing. I don't understand this it isn't real but they're happy with it argument. Why should I or indeed anyone be happy with so many people believing in utter nonsense?
    It is real for them. Why are you allowed to tell them it's not?i, with respect, doubt you are entirely rational about all aspects of life
    Why am I allowed? Why not? Just to be clear I don't go around asking people if they're religious and then tear then down but if they make a point of bringing up religion I give my opinion on the subject. :)
    Of course you are allowed, in the sense of having the capacity and opportunity to do so, in social interaction.

    Philosophically speaking, however, you are unable to make that judgement with anything like a useful effect. You can pick up on problematic areas of belief - where it meets practice, for example - but you are simply not able to do any more.
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 17:26:55
    Maybe it was the two world wars that provoked the adoption of political solutions and the prolonged period of peace in western europe, not 'the rejection of religion'
  • phAge 17 Feb 2013 17:35:16 24,442 posts
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    EuroStalker wrote:
    Culture has a purpose, to instil moral values. Humans are not born knowing what is good and bad. It is kind of a knowledge which is passed from parent to child, mainly through culture.

    Without culture, human race would be no different from animals. It is people's culture throughout history which has lead to the ascent of man. Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Mayans, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, Indians etc. all had cultural systems which saw them develop and evolve.
    Fixed for truth. Religion is a (sometimes substantial) part of any culture, but the latter shapes the former at least as much as the other way around (along with several other variables, like climate).

    To think that religion is the sole (or even major) reason a society develops and evolves is... amusing. But wrong. Quite a lot, even.
  • riceNpea 17 Feb 2013 17:39:19 592 posts
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    EuroStalker wrote:
    Religion has a purpose, to instil moral values. Humans are not born knowing what is good and bad. It is kind of a knowledge which is passed from parent to child, mainly through beliefs.

    Without religion, human race would be no different from animals. It is people's beliefs throughout history which has lead to the ascent of man. Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Mayans, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, Indians etc. all had belief systems which saw them develop and evolve.

    Atheism is for simple minded, insular people. If left to Atheists, semen on bed sheets would be considered great art.
    you have left me speechless. i've tried to issue a rebuttal and this is the best i can do. i am staggered that you actually believe that.
  • CosmicFuzz 17 Feb 2013 17:42:51 25,609 posts
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    To be fair, aside from the last paragraph he makes some fair points. I don't agree that without religion now we wouldn't be able to evolve. We've made great strides in the near past and I doubt all of the scientists etc were religious.

    Come listen to us discuss the Playstation Experience in Episode 11 of Open Source. zoolophage writes in!

  • CosmicFuzz 17 Feb 2013 17:44:11 25,609 posts
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    And I don't know if it's been said already, but the problem with Islam is that it's still directly tied to their laws. That's something we left behind in the crusades.

    Come listen to us discuss the Playstation Experience in Episode 11 of Open Source. zoolophage writes in!

  • disusedgenius 17 Feb 2013 17:46:04 5,613 posts
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    Saying that religion helped culture to evolve puts the cart before the horse, for me. Seems more that organised religion is a product of culture evolving.
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 17:47:06
    Haven't the Chinese outlawed religion?

    I think an ethical debate is the least of a fundamentalists worries for practice in the peoples republic.
  • disusedgenius 17 Feb 2013 17:49:28 5,613 posts
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    No, they tried back in the Mao era. Didn't hold very well.
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 17:50:56
    cheers for the correction
  • CosmicFuzz 17 Feb 2013 17:52:22 25,609 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    Saying that religion helped culture to evolve puts the cart before the horse, for me. Seems more that organised religion is a product of culture evolving.
    I see what you're saying, and I probably agree with you, but wasn't some form of religion around before culture properly developed?

    Actually having typed that i'm not sure. What is culture anyway, and how do you define when it came about? And is religion as simple as believing in some greater power, as in why the sun rises etc? Because that form of religion must have been around for aaaaaaaages.

    Come listen to us discuss the Playstation Experience in Episode 11 of Open Source. zoolophage writes in!

  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 17:56:27
    Religion is a form of culture surely.
  • Fake_Blood 17 Feb 2013 18:00:44 4,445 posts
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    No, culture develops over time.
    Islam does not.
  • disusedgenius 17 Feb 2013 18:05:30 5,613 posts
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    Interesting, maybe it is the eternal truth then?
  • thelzdking 17 Feb 2013 18:05:55 4,413 posts
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    EuroStalker wrote:
    Religion has a purpose, to instil moral values. Humans are not born knowing what is good and bad. It is kind of a knowledge which is passed from parent to child, mainly through beliefs.

    Without religion, human race would be no different from animals. It is people's beliefs throughout history which has lead to the ascent of man. Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Mayans, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, Indians etc. all had belief systems which saw them develop and evolve.

    Atheism is for simple minded, insular people. If left to Atheists, semen on bed sheets would be considered great art.
    The idea that morality cannot exist without religion is utter nonsense.
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 18:09:08
    Islam is proven to be malleable though; as societies have developed around it.

    In Egypt, women used to be prominent and respected within society; now you have female lawyers giving up their careers to look after the children of builders.
  • disusedgenius 17 Feb 2013 18:25:58 5,613 posts
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    Oh my, what a daring opinion you have. I simply must think of a stinging rebuttal.
  • CosmicFuzz 17 Feb 2013 18:31:10 25,609 posts
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    I know, that's such a blinkered view EuroStalker. Surely religion should be teaching of acceptance of others and their beliefs, even if their belief is that there is no god? And what is your definition of a "survivor"? I know plenty of people who have got through tough times, some are religious, some are not. Your statements are very sweeping and show a very poor view of the world.

    Come listen to us discuss the Playstation Experience in Episode 11 of Open Source. zoolophage writes in!

  • MrTomFTW Moderator 17 Feb 2013 18:31:27 39,753 posts
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    OR you could just watch this video I saw on Reddit:

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • Inertia 17 Feb 2013 18:32:19 677 posts
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    Are the atheists you know dead? Then they are survivors by default on a grand evolutionary scale.

    Have you seen "Touching the Void", and the guy whose rope got cut off, bust his legs and managed to survive, yep, you know what's coming next. He is an atheist.

    But thanks for your pet theory even if it doesn't add up to a hill of beans.
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