The Islam Thread. Page 26

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  • gammonbanter 7 Mar 2013 23:45:18 1,415 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    He is an insufferable, arrogant cunt - and probably the only mainstream figure in the media who has the balls and fortitude to highlight the vile nature of the religion of Islam. The media is always quick to highlight and ridicule the idiocy of Christianity (and rightly so) but let's be honest here - Islam is often treated with kidgloves. It's laughably referred to as the religion of peace where if you read the scriptures you'll see it's easily the most violent of the big three.

    /atheist rant over.
    Can't imagine you've "studied" the scriptures more than a few Google searches or reading a few posts on Reddit.

    Apologies if you have a theology degree.
  • Deleted user 7 March 2013 23:55:03
    I'm really confused.
  • Rusty_M 8 Mar 2013 00:18:35 4,344 posts
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    It's a great paper for racist and ignorant people. It's a terrible paper for reasonable, intelligent people.

    The world is going mad. Me? I'm doing fine.

  • -cerberus- 8 Mar 2013 11:45:06 2,057 posts
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    Graveland wrote: During my early 20s I read the Koran in English and partly in Arabic, read large parts of the Hadith/Sunnah, read various books on Islamic history, listened to various lectures by Muslims on Islam and actually converted to the faith.
    I will never understand how easily human beings let themselves be manipulated. I was raised a Catholic and when I was a wee lad, my parents forced me to attend sunday school. I of course hated it because the whole religion/cult thing just didn't make sense to me, I officially rejected the faith when it struck me that I was the only one in the group asking questions. The rest of them all sat there, like the bug-eyed mouthbreathers that they were, mindlessly absorbing whatever garbage was poured into their ears. Quickly I was looked upon with resentment for being critical, "friends" turned their backs on me, and when the teacher himself couldn't give me a straight answer, I knew being part of this wasn't the brightest of ideas. Had a nice chat with my parents afterwards and was sent to music school instead.

    Edited by -cerberus- at 11:46:04 08-03-2013

    "You see it too? For me, it's always like this..."
    (Angela Orosco - Silent Hill 2)

  • RedSparrows 8 Mar 2013 11:54:09 20,738 posts
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    It's not simply a matter of 'EVIL INDOCTRINATION FOR MORONS' vs 'BRAVE RATIONAL SOULS'.

    But heyho.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 8 Mar 2013 11:54:20 6,654 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    So you didn't; that doesn't negate that scientific discovery has driven technological development in every war point blank.
    How can something a few hundred years old be responsible for all wars for the last ten thousand?
    Science has been a human organic process throughout our entire existence. Why do people consider it a modern ideology?

    I'm not talking about the space race, my idea of science is just discovery of knowledge through applied logic.
  • Stickman 8 Mar 2013 12:15:27 29,394 posts
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    -cerberus-, sounds like you got things all worked out. If only everyone else had your superior brain power. Guess you're just special though.

    THIS SPACE FOR RENT

  • mcmothercruncher 8 Mar 2013 12:31:48 5,702 posts
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    -cerberus- wrote:
    Graveland wrote: During my early 20s I read the Koran in English and partly in Arabic, read large parts of the Hadith/Sunnah, read various books on Islamic history, listened to various lectures by Muslims on Islam and actually converted to the faith.
    I will never understand how easily human beings let themselves be manipulated. I was raised a Catholic and when I was a wee lad, my parents forced me to attend sunday school. I of course hated it because the whole religion/cult thing just didn't make sense to me, I officially rejected the faith when it struck me that I was the only one in the group asking questions. The rest of them all sat there, like the bug-eyed mouthbreathers that they were, mindlessly absorbing whatever garbage was poured into their ears. Quickly I was looked upon with resentment for being critical, "friends" turned their backs on me, and when the teacher himself couldn't give me a straight answer, I knew being part of this wasn't the brightest of ideas. Had a nice chat with my parents afterwards and was sent to music school instead.
    Very similar for me too. I remember hating having to do prayers and sing hymns in Primary School. I have vivid memories of making myself yawn a lot so I wouldn't have to join in. I'm not claiming at that stage that I had any sort of extra insight, I clearly didn't- the religious CofE stuff just sat really uneasily with me from as early as I can remember.

    Later on the Chemistry teacher thought it was hilarious that I asked where God was when he was going through the constituent parts of air. I'd been informed he was "all around us" in R.E. earlier.

    As an early teen, we had one lesson where the R.E. teacher revealed just what a twisted fundy she was. Her "friend" came in to one lesson and described in great detail every aspect of how Jesus supposedly suffered on the cross. Even bought a Cat-o-nine-tails and took us slowly through how it must have felt for the poor fucker as each piece of skin was slowly torn from him bit by bit. Described the pools of blood as his shreaded flesh hung off in strips. To a class of 13 year olds.
    Again, no genius, but that lesson really got me thinking about how desperate many religions are to instill fear and awe in people in order to cow them and stifle free thought.
  • RedSparrows 8 Mar 2013 14:16:04 20,738 posts
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    What about people who willingly and happily give themselves to a religion?
  • -cerberus- 8 Mar 2013 14:35:51 2,057 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    What about people who willingly and happily give themselves to a religion?

    "You see it too? For me, it's always like this..."
    (Angela Orosco - Silent Hill 2)

  • RedSparrows 8 Mar 2013 14:37:36 20,738 posts
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    Where the hell is that from?
  • mcmothercruncher 8 Mar 2013 15:14:10 5,702 posts
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    I don't want to be confrontational, but, what about them?
  • Khanivor 8 Mar 2013 15:33:35 39,862 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Science has been a human organic process throughout our entire existence. Why do people consider it a modern ideology?
    One, it is not an ideology. Two, it actually has a distinct definition. Three, it is a process which was not solidified and practiced until a few hundred years ago. When you link the words science and discovery you really are leaving yourself no wiggle room.

    Now, you could say technology has influenced the waging of wars ever since someone figured out how to sharpen a stick but, while true, that wouldn't tie science into death and killing.

    While we are on the topic, warfare is what drives the development of weapons. Spend a few thousand years shooting arrows at people you don't like and eventually someone will figure out a different way of putting sharp sticks into people from a distance. When you consider that over the millenia, mankind only really markedly improved on the bow and arrow as a weapon of warfare two times, (the crossbow and longbow) then it's not really a massive flag to wave for any determination as to the reasons for technological advancement of warfare.

    Or, to draw an analogy: if I spend twenty years wiping my arse in only one direction then one day wipe it in two directions, the revelation that my arse gets cleaner is not a scientific fucking discovery.

    Edited by Khanivor at 15:35:46 08-03-2013
  • RedSparrows 8 Mar 2013 15:36:10 20,738 posts
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    Well, globally, many people do follow a religion, willingly or otherwise.

    I realise neither you nor cerberus were necessarily implying with your comments that 'religions are for control' in their entirety.

    But it does touch upon a concurrent lack of understanding that I think lots of people have about religion, and its one that is missed by otherwise very observant people, or dismissed too easily: namely, that lots of people are of an explicit religious persuasion and are happy to be so, and see it as a great source of joy and love. If they do not stand in the way of your life, and of science and the arts and all other cultural matters, then I see absolutely no issue with this.

    If they are 'stupid' or 'ignorant' or 'fooled' by being this, then I think that's a touch condescending (once again, I am not saying either of you were suggesting this, more it's the usual wank that you see elsewhere on the web), and also, not entirely honest, in a sense - it's ignoring, or doing down, a really important aspect of human experience.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 15:39:43 08-03-2013
  • mcmothercruncher 8 Mar 2013 16:22:18 5,702 posts
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    No, that's definitely not what I'm saying, I'm with you in fact- if someone derives comfort from religion, then more power to them.

    Personally, I'd not find that satisfactory. And I suppose I was saying that I've never found the religion explanation for things satisfactory, from as early as I can remember. I need to see evidence and reasoning before I can sign up to something and I need to find my own way there too.

    I quite firmly believe we'll eventually discover topologies in the brain that pre-dispose people toward theist/atheistic thinking and that that will go some way to both explaining why the two sides struggle so hard to see each other's point of view- we're hard wired not to!
  • RedSparrows 8 Mar 2013 16:27:03 20,738 posts
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    I'm not sure we'll discover such a thing, but I have no basis to say that beyond a hope that we don't. Biological differences will never help just causes, sadly.

    I quite understand your point of evidence and reasoning, and I am similar to you. At the same time, I cannot help but feel it's missing the point in certain respects: this is not a good or bad thing. I'm not talking about individuals, more about humanity in general, and what constitutes 'evidence' and 'reasoning' in the light of (apparent) divine revelation et al.
  • mattigan 8 Mar 2013 16:41:04 1,429 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Science has been a human organic process throughout our entire existence. Why do people consider it a modern ideology?
    One, it is not an ideology. Two, it actually has a distinct definition. Three, it is a process which was not solidified and practiced until a few hundred years ago. When you link the words science and discovery you really are leaving yourself no wiggle room.

    Now, you could say technology has influenced the waging of wars ever since someone figured out how to sharpen a stick but, while true, that wouldn't tie science into death and killing.

    While we are on the topic, warfare is what drives the development of weapons. Spend a few thousand years shooting arrows at people you don't like and eventually someone will figure out a different way of putting sharp sticks into people from a distance. When you consider that over the millenia, mankind only really markedly improved on the bow and arrow as a weapon of warfare two times, (the crossbow and longbow) then it's not really a massive flag to wave for any determination as to the reasons for technological advancement of warfare.

    Or, to draw an analogy: if I spend twenty years wiping my arse in only one direction then one day wipe it in two directions, the revelation that my arse gets cleaner is not a scientific fucking discovery.
    One, Agree
    Two, Hmmm
    Three Nope don't agree, Science has only been called 'science' for a few hundred years, if you consider it a process of experementation to achive a desired consistent result and test ideas using similar method, refining and refining until the truth or as close as can be reasonably achieved is known. Then the fact it is conducted these days largely on paper and computers with advanced quipment is irrelevant i.e. the 'traditional' view of scientific process. Humans have been experementing to achieve the best result then passing on the knowledge so that future generations can further refine technique with further experementation for millenia, separately from any outside influence from a 'god'. Sure god has had a lot of credit for successes, but do you really think we would have come as far as we have as a species without science in some form before gods arrived on the scene a couple of thousand years ago?
  • Bremenacht 8 Mar 2013 16:55:58 15,739 posts
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    Just two thousand years ago eh?

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Inertia 8 Mar 2013 17:07:19 674 posts
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    @Khanivor

    I think Euclid did science that was more than wiping his arse. And Pythagoras and a thousand more men too. We still use their theories in science because they were using good maths.

    Keeping it on topic you could also discuss Islamic science and it's role in civilizing the world. Not only through passing on the Greek and Roman works which were lost to the West but also in developing new ideas of science and philosophy too.

    If you define science as the hypothetical-deductive method then a lot of modern science doesn't pass muster. They had used the standard model of matter before they had confirmation of the Higgs boson.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 8 Mar 2013 19:39:50 6,654 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:


    Or, to draw an analogy: if I spend twenty years wiping my arse in only one direction then one day wipe it in two directions, the revelation that my arse gets cleaner is not a scientific fucking discovery.
    I completely disagree with you.
  • Khanivor 8 Mar 2013 23:52:42 39,862 posts
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    OK then, Ima gonna call Scientology a religion, seeing as the meaning of words is only relevant to the point an individual is trying to make.

    Might as well say religion caused all wars too, if we are going to blame science for someone figuring out how to make a pointier sword.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 9 Mar 2013 10:23:55 6,654 posts
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    @Khanivor Also, a word is, imo, defined by the context in which it is used. I didn't say it qualified as an 'ideology' but used in the context of a modern counter argument to religion would imo make it one.

    Just my opinion.

    I wiki'd the definition of the word 'science' and it comes from the latin
    Word for knowledge which is far more general and less specific than your
    apparent definition although you haven't said what that is?

    Wiping your arse and more generally, personal hygiene and it's impact
    on peoples health was a profound scientific discovery imo.
  • bladdard 9 Mar 2013 16:59:01 811 posts
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    While we're on science lots of Muslims will have you believe Islam has been responsible for scientific breakthroughs and invention.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

    Others will tell these inventions had nothing to do with Islam.

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Inventions%3F_How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World
  • senso-ji 9 Mar 2013 19:13:53 5,277 posts
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    bladdard wrote:
    While we're on science lots of Muslims will have you believe Islam has been responsible for scientific breakthroughs and invention.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

    Others will tell these inventions had nothing to do with Islam.

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Inventions%3F_How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World
    I believe the article that isn't hosted on a fiercely Islamaphobic website.
  • RedSparrows 9 Mar 2013 19:25:48 20,738 posts
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    Islam kept Greek philosophy alive whilst Europe wanked on the dark. It doesn't change the horrors and the glories of either, but it is true.
  • RedSparrows 9 Mar 2013 19:27:00 20,738 posts
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    On/in same thing.
  • mcmothercruncher 9 Mar 2013 19:34:59 5,702 posts
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    You tell my other half that.
  • bladdard 9 Mar 2013 20:19:35 811 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    bladdard wrote:
    While we're on science lots of Muslims will have you believe Islam has been responsible for scientific breakthroughs and invention.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

    Others will tell these inventions had nothing to do with Islam.

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Inventions%3F_How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World
    I believe the article that isn't hosted on a fiercely Islamaphobic website.
    Perhaps but it does seem to provide references to the source information.
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