Are you proud to be English? Page 9

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  • Dougs 11 Feb 2013 16:02:59 64,903 posts
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    @Brem

    Or water filters. Just think about that.

    Edited by Dougs at 16:03:16 11-02-2013
  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:03:08
    The space race was due to cold war. It makes governments throw money at r&d. In peace time we throw money at the poor.

    Edited by Pepsipop at 16:03:21 11-02-2013
  • LeoliansBro 11 Feb 2013 16:03:25 41,865 posts
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    meme wrote:
    War doesn't progress things as well as we'd like to think, all it does is shift the focus. WW2 gave us nukes earlier, but shelved development of the transistor.
    I found myself wondering this over the weekend. Of the improvements to medicine drive by the Second World War and the loss of life, which had the bigger impact?

    To put another way, did the total number of years of life lost (through conflict, residual impoverishment etc) outweigh the total number of years won (through accelerated medical advance keeping everyone alive longer, technological improvements helping with quality of life etc)?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 11 Feb 2013 16:04:08 20,756 posts
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    Pepsipop wrote:
    The space race was due to cold war. It makes governments throw money at r&d. In peace time we throw money at the poor.
    BURNING
  • RedSparrows 11 Feb 2013 16:04:50 20,756 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    meme wrote:
    War doesn't progress things as well as we'd like to think, all it does is shift the focus. WW2 gave us nukes earlier, but shelved development of the transistor.
    I found myself wondering this over the weekend. Of the improvements to medicine drive by the Second World War and the loss of life, which had the bigger impact?

    To put another way, did the total number of years of life lost (through conflict, residual impoverishment etc) outweigh the total number of years won (through accelerated medical advance keeping everyone alive longer, technological improvements helping with quality of life etc)?
    Can't be totted up.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 11 Feb 2013 16:05:34 6,654 posts
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    The second world war also gave birth to the idea of the welfare state. Not just technical accomplishments, it has shaped the world we live in.

    A lot of good/bad two sides of the same coin paradoxes in human history

    Edited by bitch_tits_zero_nine at 16:05:59 11-02-2013
  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:05:55
    The Space Race would have arguably happened without the Cold War. The ideas for it started in the 20s, for one thing. The Cold War, again, just shifted the focus from it being of scientific interest to military. It became an arms, rather than a technological, race. Ballistic missiles and all that.
  • LeoliansBro 11 Feb 2013 16:06:16 41,865 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:

    Can't be totted up.
    Is that the same as saying 'too close to call'?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 11 Feb 2013 16:07:45 20,756 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:

    Can't be totted up.
    Is that the same as saying 'too close to call'?
    No, it's saying 'you cannot possibly weigh the moral calamity and the moral benefit from this massive web of events and meanings without cheapening the very thing you hope to strengthen.'

    You could do it coldly, analytically, but ultimately it'd miss the point of it all, and be a waste of work, imo.
  • Deckard1 11 Feb 2013 16:08:19 25,414 posts
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    I think I'd like to be Hawaiian.

    Called it

  • RedSparrows 11 Feb 2013 16:08:49 20,756 posts
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    P.S. take it to the History Thread, yo.
  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:12:17
    Reading this thread is like watching 20 Alan Partridges debate with each other.
  • LeoliansBro 11 Feb 2013 16:12:52 41,865 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:

    Can't be totted up.
    Is that the same as saying 'too close to call'?
    No, it's saying 'you cannot possibly weigh the moral calamity and the moral benefit from this massive web of events and meanings without cheapening the very thing you hope to strengthen.'

    You could do it coldly, analytically, but ultimately it'd miss the point of it all, and be a waste of work, imo.
    Yup, but realistically it's one of two scenarios.

    1) Either the positive or the negative impact is so evidently, clearly disproportionate as to demonstrate WW2 was ultimately beneficial / detrimental to the human race from a lifespan perspective.

    2) It's too close to call.

    This is not a moral question, but a mathematical one. Morally I cannot see the justification for being the aggressor in almost any conflict.

    /beatnik peace loving hippy

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deckard1 11 Feb 2013 16:13:06 25,414 posts
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    BillCityfingers wrote:
    Reading this thread is like watching 20 Alan Partridges debate with each other.
    That sounds incredible!

    This is much, much worse than that.

    Edited by Deckard1 at 16:13:27 11-02-2013

    Called it

  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:13:29
    Ww2 destroyed the empire.
  • andytheadequate 11 Feb 2013 16:13:32 7,956 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:

    Can't be totted up.
    Is that the same as saying 'too close to call'?
    It depends whether penecillin would have been discovered and mass produced without World War 2. World War 2 accelerated its progress but it would have probably happened eventually. That's why it's impossible to say.

    Still, an interesting point. So many technological and medicial break throughs are because of war.
  • LeoliansBro 11 Feb 2013 16:14:11 41,865 posts
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    Shush revan, adults are talking.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 11 Feb 2013 16:15:24 20,756 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:

    Can't be totted up.
    Is that the same as saying 'too close to call'?
    No, it's saying 'you cannot possibly weigh the moral calamity and the moral benefit from this massive web of events and meanings without cheapening the very thing you hope to strengthen.'

    You could do it coldly, analytically, but ultimately it'd miss the point of it all, and be a waste of work, imo.
    Yup, but realistically it's one of two scenarios.

    1) Either the positive or the negative impact is so evidently, clearly disproportionate as to demonstrate WW2 was ultimately beneficial / detrimental to the human race from a lifespan perspective.

    2) It's too close to call.

    This is not a moral question, but a mathematical one. Morally I cannot see the justification for being the aggressor in almost any conflict.

    /beatnik peace loving hippy
    Yes, technically, you can question it, and add numbers up.

    But even in the process of that 'science', you'd be making literal value judgements about cost/benefit in a way that'd be very, very clumsy with anything vague. So you could get a 'result', but how useful it would be is hard to judge.

    It's a reason I find economics fascinating, and also quite worrying.
  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:18:25
    Deckard1 wrote:
    BillCityfingers wrote:
    Reading this thread is like watching 20 Alan Partridges debate with each other.
    That sounds incredible!

    This is much, much worse than that.
    True, I suppose that would at least be funny.

    Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:18:45 11-02-2013
  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:20:38
    Touching on what was said earlier it is madness that many people celebrate st Patricks day and don't st Georges. Also it is almost taboo to raise Georges cross instead of tge union flag yet no one bats an eyelid if the Scottish or welsh flags are raised. For example the Scottish and welsh fire service have their flags on their uniform yet the English don't.
  • RedSparrows 11 Feb 2013 16:22:07 20,756 posts
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    It's not madness. It has historical roots. It's not simply a matter of 'pride' or 'political correctness' or whatever other boring bogey man is being wheeled out.

    Not that they're mutually exclusive, of course.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 16:22:43 11-02-2013
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 11 Feb 2013 16:22:48 6,654 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    But even in the process of that 'science', you'd be making literal value judgements about cost/benefit in a way that'd be very, very clumsy with anything vague. So you could get a 'result', but how useful it would be is hard to judge.

    It's a reason I find economics fascinating, and also quite worrying.
    It's probably why the Tories are such cunts. To form policies based on a science where they have abstracted the notion of cause and effect on an individual human level.

    Everything is Maths. Pensioners freezing.. Maths.
  • Mr_Sleep 11 Feb 2013 16:23:48 16,249 posts
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    Isn't it more ridiculous to be celebrating saints on a national level?

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • neilka 11 Feb 2013 16:24:51 14,942 posts
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    Pepsipop wrote:
    Ww2 destroyed the empire.
    That was Luke Skywalker.
  • Bremenacht 11 Feb 2013 16:27:00 15,753 posts
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    Is neilka busy this afternoon or what?

    Bremenacht wrote:
    Pepsipop wrote:
    Technology wise, no doubt. Brings an urgent need to things. Medical and scientific research goes through the roof as well as the more obvious weapons etc.
    True. We wouldn't have penisillen if it wasn't for the space race.
    Come on man! I'm trying to set them up for you!

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Deleted user 11 February 2013 16:27:05
    Or having a saint who isn't English?
  • Bremenacht 11 Feb 2013 16:27:18 15,753 posts
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    AHA!

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • kalel 11 Feb 2013 16:28:34 83,875 posts
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    I think it's really interesting that the story of St George features a dragin. A fucking dragon!!

    I mean, I'm aware much of the bible and other religious stories leans towards the fantastical, even to the extent of having a talking snake in one, but a dragon? That's a whole other level.

    We should have Saint Aragorn, and Saint Sean Bean in Game of Thrones, and Saint Luke Skywalker.
  • Bremenacht 11 Feb 2013 16:30:05 15,753 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    Isn't it more ridiculous to be celebrating saints on a national level?
    English saints are the best sort really. Irish saint: treads on snakes. English saint: slays big boffing dragons.

    I'm proud of our English saints, although I respect Jewish saints too and am proud to call them my friends.

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Bremenacht 11 Feb 2013 16:30:22 15,753 posts
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    Gah!

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

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