The quote's do worry me however, World tendecy and the convenants were obscure(and to be fair i thought they didn;t work out that well)and could use a bit more explanation.|
Now while i do love the mystery of the lore through reading item descriptions, i do think this game could use a bit more direct lore through character dialogue's. While again, i loved the mystery some of the dialogue's were to stale and the typical japanese style of: Talk to me again for 20 times and after ''something'' happened for more lore should be thrown away.
My main concern lies in the level and combat design and difficulty.
Dark Souls II • Page 3
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Rajin 722 posts
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quadfather 23,964 posts
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I remember when we were all playing demon's souls and dark souls was announced, people were saying the same thing. "Open world, but what about the nexus. I love the nexus approach" etc etc.
It'll be fine! It'll be brilliant, and we'll all die lots
Edge's mention of increased accessibilty worries me a tad. I hope they mean that in the sense of a more fleshed-out tutorial section and nothing else. That's the only thing Demons and Dark needed.
I have to agree with EpicNameBro on this subject. The reason the game felt so special was the way each game mechanic worked together as a supremely balanced whole, whether by accident or design. Fucking with any of that is definitely going to make it worse, and that includes the inclusion of an Easy mode or obviuos developer placed messages in the main game.
The fact is, the game would not be remotely as good if it was left to just the combat, upgrade system, level design, etc. It's everything along with the punishing lack of accessibilty that makes it work. Frankly without the need to study and experiment there would be none of the tension or fear that fuels these games, and they'd be just poor as a result.
Besides which, anyone wanting an 'accesible' hack'n'slasher that you can play without having to properly concentrate have literally hundreds to pick from (and probably already have), so fuck them and leave us this baby as is!
So I vote no to an increase in accsessibilty.
If they go down the Bioware route of "every time you press a button something awesome has to happen" combat, I think I will die a little inside.
To put it more simply. To go down the same path of accessibilty of other RPG devs in thepursuit of more money, they will in fact lose sales as they will then be competing directly with tons of other generic hack'n'slashers.
And they will lose that fight.
I think the biggest worry is doing something like Arkham City. Swapping intricacy for broad scale.
Making things more accessible is a noble goal, but the problem is that its become little more than another word for dumbing down in practice.
Its inscrutability-ness is its USP.
It has to keep it, or it's a Souls game in name alone.
Any move away from that and, yeah, it just moves into a large pool of generic RPG's.
And that pool isn't even poisoned, or anything!
Getting the impressions from views on here and on GAF, a few people have already made up their minds on this game already. Of course its only a minority but the ammunition is already in place to slate the game because of those words from EDGE which i think is a bit unfortunate. I guess the pressure really is on, with miyazaki on the sidelines and its being the third game in the series. I know how fickle some people are, i guess it be too cool to like dark souls soon. After all we know nothing of this game really. Everyone going numpty on a few choice words.
/grumpy and tired
seriously though, perhaps its just the case of giving it a more defined narrative, having a bigger purpose to the game world.
Edited by joelstinton at 21:14:38 09-12-2012
It's just 'cus we're passionate about dying in new and cruel ways.
The next Dragon Age/Skyrim/CoD/MW/FIFA etc can do whatever the fuck they like, this game matters because it dared to do something different. Not fucking up that different is key.
People are just bemoaning the possibility. Speculation is not condemnation.
Trafford 7,805 posts
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OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG DARK SOULS 2!!!!
I did hear that they are toning it down (according to some website.)
I really hope they don't.
The Souls games are the only game series I actually have faith in.
I love Dark Souls so much I even got a Dark Souls tattoo on my leg.
(Don't worry, the tattoo was free and I was a test subject for someone trying tattoo's. Its probably my favourite tattoo out of the ones I have.)
Edited by Architect_z at 23:21:32 09-12-2012
Dangerous_Dan 2,390 posts
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Well the new director Shibuya has a Monster Hunter background and that game design and especially the bosses are really well crafted. From what I've seen and heard they are better than those in the Souls series. (A.I. and stuff)
So actually that could work out quite well if he is going to use his talents wisely.
All the Elder Scrolls talk is nothing Shibuya himself said, here's a nice short article about that.
Though I hope Bamco is wise enough to not interfere with the creative aspects.
We don't know who came up with the melee system, that probably was not all Miyazaki himself. The things he seems to be keen on is the idea of failure and challenge and the need for patience. And the sense that it's cool to tell a story not in a straight forward fashion but with little hints and leave it to the player to discover it, or not.
So what I make from all that stuff so far is that they want to make the story a bit more in your face and not looking up all the details in an item description.
Which is fine with me as long as it keeps its secrets and does not fall through that trap door of Elder Scrolls style (which just does not engage me at all).
I somehow get why they want to make a sequel and not a spiritual successor, from a creative point of view that is. The game could be improved on many levels and this time with the added support of fresh blood they might pull it off. Let's hope it becomes something like a swan song of this generation.
Edited by Dangerous_Dan at 23:44:21 09-12-2012
@Dangerous_Dan - Just watched that video about difficulty. It was pretty good actually.
Obviously after hearing the things about DSII being more accessible, I was really worried.
The difficulty argument (to me), relates to old school games.
I was playing the original Mario the other day.
Demon's/Dark Souls are obviously incredibly more complex than the original mario, however (as we all probably know)....in Mario, you try to get to the boss at the end of the level, by getting past any obsticle in your way.
If you die, you start again, and dieing means losing a life.
Its practically exactly the same concept as the souls games.
Get to the boss by overcomming any obstacles in the way. And try not to die or you might lose souls.
And Mario is hard! I dont know if anyone else thinks that, but I cant complete a level without being extremely patient and cautious, and even then, it doesn't guarantee that I wont lose a life or 2 in the process.
So with the difficulty argument, they could make Mario easier, by giving the person infinite lives and less holes to fall down. Sure more people would probably complete it, but where would be the sense of achievement. If Mario was easy, it never would have made it in the game industry, and Mario is one of the most well known games of all time.
I think the difficulty is paramount to the success of the souls games, and I really really hope they don't add any difficulty settings, or tone down the difficulty.
As I've mentioned before, Dark Souls can be easy, if you know how weapons scale, know how the armour works, know which spells/items/buffs/rings are effective etc. Plus theres no excuses with bosses as you can summon people for help. And the guy on the video quoted, "if you're stuck, there are thousands of Dark Souls fans who would be more than happy to help you out"
We'll just have to pray they don't mess with anything too much for the sequel eh.
I guess we should think of ways in which accessibility would improve Dark Souls? What can it learn from Skyrim?
The thing is when I ask myself this all I actually think of is ways in which Skyrim would improve if it was more like Dark Souls.
I think that they could make a few things a little less obscure. Like joining Kaathe was way too difficult. Make it hard to find, sure, but as soon as you've placed the lord Vessel, you're fucked. And why wouldn't you place it?
That struck me as being a completely arbitrary requirement. Give me the option to make good with Kaathe at any time FFS!
@PazJohnMitch Skyrim plus Dark Souls combat = Legendary. Throw in some atmosphere and you have game of the century...
That is precisely what I was thinking.
So far on the accessibility front I have come up with:
NPCs: On Dark Souls it was never really clear to me the motivations of the other characters and how I should interact with them. For the most part I ignored them so I will have missed out on quite a lot of what they had to offer.
I quite liked how I did not know what was going on with them but a few pointers as to when they are ready to talk about something new would be nice. If I talk to someone 3 times and they say the same thing each time it is unlikely I can be bothered to talk to them again.
It would also be nice to know where they are as they seemed to just disappear quite a lot.
Covenants: Again I did not really understand these. However I know this was fully my own fault for not trying. A little more info into why they are useful would be nice. But only an initial pointer.
Where to go next? Signposting: Now this is something that I really do not want to change as I really enjoyed getting lost and fighting enemies which were to hard for me. If I die a number of times I am happy to give up and look for an alternative path.
However one of my friends quit at the very beginning as instead of heading to the Undead Burg he went straight to the Catacombs and got destroyed by the first two skeletons. He found the route down but never noticed the little path upwards which he should have took. A second of my mates refused to play the game based on this account of how unfair the game was.
A third friend played it quite a lot but reached a point they could not progress beyond. At the same point in the game I had discovered a hidden path and had set about exploring a few other places instead which were off the main route. When he was getting really annoyed I showed him the hidden path.
The other routes I had discovered were actually all more difficult than the one he was dieing on. However the fact they existed and he could slowly prod them and explore a little kept him interested. This gave him some new motivation and he continued on to complete the game. He was however very close to quitting.
So From Software should be trying to find a way of keeping me happy by limiting handholding but introduce some kind of mechanic to keep other people like my friends interested. A way of gently pointing people in a different direction they may have missed. (However in Dark Souls style it does not have to be the right direction, just new).
Edited by PazJohnMitch at 04:36:17 10-12-2012
Yeah, I think that the NPCs in Demon's Souls were spot on, because even they all seemed full of character (well, I'm not including Stockpile Thomas obviously) and their status in the world was clear.
This guy can't hack the demon slaying any more. She has given up on the dark arts. This dude won't stop until he's gotten every ounce of knowledge out of the world, this other guy is a cold blooded assassin, that guy's a fucking chancer, she has fallen but her motivations were pure and the dude that's with her loves her absolutely, this guy was an adventurer but he shit his pants and couldn't go any further...
I'll bet that you know each and every one of the those characters without having to think very hard.
In Dark Souls, you have far less in the way of recognizable memorable characters I think.
Combat training: Zelda games tend to offer NPCs that you can spar against. Introducing one of these that will offer you tips would be useful.
There should be distinct differences from Zelda however! In Zelda you had to spar with them to learn new techniques. In Dark Souls the techniques should already be available to you and the sparring partner is only there to allow you to practice it safely / remind you it is there if you forget.
You should also be able to "accidentally" forget to equip a wooden sword when you fight the NPC. This would obviously anger them and lead to a fight to the death.
And as for Covenants, I feel justified in saying that if you hadn't read how to do it on the internet, your chances of having been able to join the Darkstalkers would have been very very low! If I could fix the game, I would make it so that after beating the 4 kings, you could still join Kaathe, even if you had already joined with Frampt. I mean, why wouldn't you be able to?
Also, although I'm against over-simplifying, I'm not against simplifying. In this case, I'd tidy up the Covenants a bit.
The Darkstalkers would suffice as the bad-guys. Then have the Darkmoon Blades as the revenge artists. That'd be cool. The Forest Covenant seemed like it was just a general arena group, and the Dragon guys were honorable duelists. Then Solaire's crowd seemed like the "Help you survive Dark Souls" group, so that's cool too.
I feel like they should have woven the pyro covenant into one of those groups somehow, and the same for Nito's group. It's too fractured...
A map: Again this is not something I personally want but the option to be able to look at a map on the menu screen could be useful. (A mini map however is a huge no, no).
It is important that the game does not pause when you look at the map and it should only be updated when you reach a bonfire. Looking at a map should be something that you do at your own risk.
Weapon Development: Now I do not want to see a clear weapon development tree from the beginning of the game as this would remove the discovery. However it would be nice if the game drew one on the fly as you evolve weapons.
So for instance if you combined a +10 Machette with a fire stone and it turned into a flaming short sword it would be nice if the game recorded this successful combination in a diary somewhere. (Especially if the same weapon could be formed from a different combination).
Telepathic.Geometry wrote:Oh I disagree. The NPC's in Dark Souls were more personal, so you personally were only likely to connect with a few (for good reason), but they were all wonderfully crafted characters.
In Dark Souls, you have far less in the way of recognizable memorable characters I think.
Stop talking about changing things in DS, it makes me sad.
Edited by King_Edward at 06:40:28 10-12-2012
No way, Demon's Souls NPCs were more numerous and better developed than Dark Souls'. But, it's all opinion so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or go to Lordran and try to kill each other... ;D
I was just trying to think of things which would make the game more accessible without adversally effecting the feel of the game.
Maybe I went too far?
I was just seeing if there was a way to make the game more accessible without making it easier.
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