The Scottish Fitba Thread v3.0 Page 3

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  • Vortex808 21 Nov 2012 15:47:29 6,951 posts
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    I'm not about to eat humble pie, since I have never gloated about the situation of either yourselves, or hearts. The current state of scottish football saddens me.


    I have taken issue with how both of those clubs have been run, and with the attitude of various fans from both sides of the OF thinking there is a conspiracy against them however, as it plainly rubbish. There can't be aconspiracy against both of you.

    Every club has shit to deal with which has pushed some close to the edge over the years. Hibs and Celtic almost went to the wall, Dundee, Motherwell, Livingstone, Clydebank all had issues too.

    Currently, Rangers and Hearts have it in spades, that's mostly down to mismanagement and the HMRC pursuing tax avoidance much harder in the current financial situation. That is a UK agency and nothing to do with any other club having an axe to grind. I would suggest your ire should be directed at the policies of previous boards.

    Edited by Vortex808 at 15:48:16 21-11-2012
  • Armoured_Bear 21 Nov 2012 15:49:10 10,275 posts
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    craigy wrote:
    "Tube", too.
    What about 'hunkers'?

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  • Andee 21 Nov 2012 16:05:16 680 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Celtic did it with one player whereas with Rangers it was the owner down to the clean, dozens of people and untold millions.
    And Celtic also payed the tax on that EBT when they realised it was a potential problem.
  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 16:08:26 454 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Celtic did it with one player whereas with Rangers it was the owner down to the clean, dozens of people and untold millions.
    It was legal , there are no millions owed to anybody or millions lost. As has been stated by HMRC. Only in your fantasy world is this correct. Once again please deal in facts.

    This attitude of rangers are bad, must be punished, must be punished , must be punished is not healthy (keep coming up with reasons they are certainly making me laugh). You have let your own hatred get in the way of any sane thought.
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 16:23:38 7,591 posts
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    Vortex808 wrote:
    I'm not about to eat humble pie, since I have never gloated about the situation of either yourselves, or hearts. The current state of scottish football saddens me.


    I have taken issue with how both of those clubs have been run, and with the attitude of various fans from both sides of the OF thinking there is a conspiracy against them however, as it plainly rubbish. There can't be aconspiracy against both of you.

    Every club has shit to deal with which has pushed some close to the edge over the years. Hibs and Celtic almost went to the wall, Dundee, Motherwell, Livingstone, Clydebank all had issues too.

    Currently, Rangers and Hearts have it in spades, that's mostly down to mismanagement and the HMRC pursuing tax avoidance much harder in the current financial situation. That is a UK agency and nothing to do with any other club having an axe to grind. I would suggest your ire should be directed at the policies of previous boards.
    I wish the other thread was around, the amount of gloating was atrocious. We've had our club destroyed and beaten to within an inch of its life. We were the victims of horrendous circumstance. In the other thread that hearts fan got all the sympathy, especially when he said something along the lines of "and we haven't done anything as bad as rangers have". Well that's crap. I really think everyone should be asking themselves what the hell they were playing at over the last several years, it's disgusting.

    As for the previous boards, it seems that the ebt scheme was legal so what ire can I direct to that board? I can direct ire to the lack of support from fellow fans / football clubs / organisations. The SPL love us so much we haven't received prize money. The SFA have kept millions of pounds worth of transfer payments that is our money. These organisations have done little to try and help us. Both are guilty of allowing Whyte to proceed unchecked.

    We, as fans, have a lot to be angry about.
  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 16:24:18 454 posts
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    Andee wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Celtic did it with one player whereas with Rangers it was the owner down to the clean, dozens of people and untold millions.
    And Celtic also payed the tax on that EBT when they realised it was a potential problem.
    The problem with Juninho was they hadn't declared it to SPL/SFA so had to settle issue.
  • Andee 21 Nov 2012 16:45:40 680 posts
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    Pompeybear wrote:
    Andee wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Celtic did it with one player whereas with Rangers it was the owner down to the clean, dozens of people and untold millions.
    And Celtic also payed the tax on that EBT when they realised it was a potential problem.
    The problem with Juninho was they hadn't declared it to SPL/SFA so had to settle issue.
    It wasn't an SPL or SFA issue. The difference between the Juninho EBT and the ones mainly discussed in the Rangers context was that the Juninho payment was after his contract was terminated, as severance pay, and not while he was a registered player.
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 17:27:09 7,591 posts
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    Who cares now?
  • dufftownallan 22 Nov 2012 02:06:41 4,723 posts
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    what Starbucks are doing right now is perfectly legal, does it make it right? should we be happy with the malpractice?

    persecution complex? probably warranted; both sides of the OF hate each other and you can be guaranteed 95% of fans outside the OF fucking despise both of you. celtic and rangers have been poison to the scottish game for the past two decades, they've taken and taken with little regard for giving anything back, all the while openly courting a move to a bigger arena whilst insisting the scottish game would shrivel and die without them.

    you support an unpopular club; man up.

    don't get me wrong tho, I absolutely have sympathy for the fans of rangers, but your ire should be directed at those running the scottish game, the same lot that allowed the old firm to dictate to the rest of the spl what should happen by installing an 11-1 voting structure for change. your club has fallen victim from a desire to see radical change in our game more than it has from blind hatred, it seems that the fall of rfc has been a catalyst for this, we can only hope that this whole sorry mess will pay some dividends for the good of all, it's just unfortunate that its you rangers fans who have had to pay the biggest price for it.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 06:54:36 7,591 posts
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    Sorry but telling someone to man up after what has happened to us and our club the last few years is just arrogant nonsense. It wasn't just unfortunate, the whole thing was scandalous, and as I said before, the muted reaction to this news and the lack of any remorse from those that shouted about our guilt is damning. The damage was done, people got their pint of blood and couldn't care less whether it was warranted or not.

    You can have your moral opinions, but I'm sure all Celtic fans don't lose sleep at night wondering what failed attempt Lennon will make next at trying to avoid tax.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 10:30:37 454 posts
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    dufftownallan wrote:
    what Starbucks are doing right now is perfectly legal, does it make it right? should we be happy with the malpractice?

    persecution complex? probably warranted; both sides of the OF hate each other and you can be guaranteed 95% of fans outside the OF fucking despise both of you. celtic and rangers have been poison to the scottish game for the past two decades, they've taken and taken with little regard for giving anything back, all the while openly courting a move to a bigger arena whilst insisting the scottish game would shrivel and die without them.

    you support an unpopular club; man up.

    don't get me wrong tho, I absolutely have sympathy for the fans of rangers, but your ire should be directed at those running the scottish game, the same lot that allowed the old firm to dictate to the rest of the spl what should happen by installing an 11-1 voting structure for change. your club has fallen victim from a desire to see radical change in our game more than it has from blind hatred, it seems that the fall of rfc has been a catalyst for this, we can only hope that this whole sorry mess will pay some dividends for the good of all, it's just unfortunate that its you rangers fans who have had to pay the biggest price for it.

    I think the Rangers fans have more than manned up. we could have shrivelled up and died, but attendances have been booming , atmosphere in Ibrox has changed to a slightly more lighter note. Younger players are getting their chance which surely can only be good for scottish games, teams in 3rd division have hit the jackpot and Rangers visits are keeping some of these teams afloat for years. So to tell us to man up , I don't think so.

    We are now fighting our corner rather than let people spout pish about us.

    The next assault will be 'its morally wrong!' . Has anybody on here got an ISA ? I have, to avoid paying tax on it . Maybe I should not use it so as to pay more tax. Every company in the world has practices to avoid paying higher taxes. Mr Lennon himself tried to use one.
  • Vortex808 22 Nov 2012 10:40:32 6,951 posts
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    Pompeybear wrote:

    The next assault will be 'its morally wrong!' . Has anybody on here got an ISA ? I have, to avoid paying tax on it . Maybe I should not use it so as to pay more tax. Every company in the world has practices to avoid paying higher taxes. Mr Lennon himself tried to use one.
    :rolleyes:

    So now an ISA where you are allowed to save a little extra on a set amount of savings per year by not paying a little tax on the Interest you earn on savings is the same as not paying a lot of tax on a more sizable 'loan', which isn't actually a loan, but is actually a players salary?

    The difference in tax avoided on the salary, I mean loan, relative to tax on your interest, would be quite a difference especially with interest rates at a record low.

    The logic at work here is astounding.

    Edit:

    Let's break it down a bit.

    10000 maximum tax break for an ISA at 4%(generous interest) = 400 interest per year. Tax avoided on 400 per year.

    10000 (per week) player salary top up/ "loan" Tax due 40% + NI? (or whatever the top earner tax rate is now). Tax avoided, say 4000 a week. That's over 200k a year in missing tax.

    That seem comparable to you? Obviously all rough figures, but I think the point is there.

    Edited by Vortex808 at 10:50:32 22-11-2012
  • President_Weasel 22 Nov 2012 10:41:45 8,972 posts
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    could we have a 3.1 thread without your repellent whining in it?
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 11:02:24 454 posts
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    Vortex808 wrote:
    Pompeybear wrote:

    The next assault will be 'its morally wrong!' . Has anybody on here got an ISA ? I have, to avoid paying tax on it . Maybe I should not use it so as to pay more tax. Every company in the world has practices to avoid paying higher taxes. Mr Lennon himself tried to use one.
    :rolleyes:

    So now an ISA where you are allowed to save a little extra on a set amount of savings per year by not paying a little tax on the Interest you earn on savings is the same as not paying a lot of tax on a more sizable 'loan', which isn't actually a loan, but is actually a players salary?

    The difference in tax avoided on the salary, I mean loan, relative to tax on your interest, would be quite a difference especially with interest rates at a record low.

    The logic at work here is astounding.

    Edit:

    Let's break it down a bit.

    10000 maximum tax break for an ISA at 4%(generous interest) = 400 interest per year. Tax avoided on 400 per year.

    10000 (per week) player salary top up/ "loan" Tax due 40% + NI? (or whatever the top earner tax rate is now). Tax avoided, say 4000 a week. That's over 200k a year in missing tax.

    That seem comparable to you? Obviously all rough figures, but I think the point is there.
    What planet are you on?
  • ResidentKnievel 22 Nov 2012 11:06:43 6,120 posts
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    I wish Craigy was the only Rangers fan who posted :(

    Scottish football threads have a lot of similarities to Nintendo threads

    [code]Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don't have a weird obsession with any platform.[/code]

  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 11:10:04 454 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    could we have a 3.1 thread without your repellent whining in it?
    Ahhh I see. Have a read through this thread, as its constant attacks on Rangers and how as you put it 'they are still cunts' ,both myself and Arron are at least trying to counter argue the attacks, you want it closed and stop the whining (counter arguments).

    Stop posting fantasy land garbage and we will stop defending.

    Maybe I should start posting drivil about your club and see how long before you start whining or would you be happy with it?
  • ResidentKnievel 22 Nov 2012 11:14:29 6,120 posts
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    I'm the one who said Rangers were still cunts, not Pres_Wes.

    They're still cunts.

    [code]Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don't have a weird obsession with any platform.[/code]

  • craigy Staff 22 Nov 2012 11:21:20 7,525 posts
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    @ResidentKnievel \o/

    I can understand why everyone is angry.

    For a lot of people -- including some relatives of mine up the road -- all this stuff has created a crisis of identity. People can associate themselves so tightly with a football club that the club becomes who they are, so any form of criticism (justified or not) is seen as an outrageous attack on them as a person. You can see how that manifests itself in this thread: people can't be civil for even a moment, and all kind of accusations and insults fly. It's daft.

    Cos I'm down in Brighton and only half Scottish (!) I feel a little distanced from the heartbreak of it all, so talking about it doesn't create the same sharp pain as others experience.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 11:22:36 454 posts
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    Apologies Pres for the mis quote.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 11:33:21 454 posts
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    Maybe better to split the scottish league thread into 2 , SPL and SFL :-)

    Would probably kept the chat more football orientated than old firm point scoring.
  • nickthegun 22 Nov 2012 11:38:16 58,784 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    could we have a 3.1 thread without your repellent whining in it?
    This is another reasons we dont want them down here. We get enough of that as it is.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • dufftownallan 22 Nov 2012 12:15:37 4,723 posts
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    my "man up" request was to aaron constantly whining about people having a go at his club in this thread. my point is that rangers have always been hated, it's natural (albeit not condonable) that people will continue to put the boot into rangers, aaron would be better served rising above it and concentrating on matters at hand, and I urge that instead of lambasting fans of other clubs, he should be complaining about the people who run the scottish game, the real villains of this particular piece.

    pompey, the vast majority of gers fans have rallied behind their club and its been heartening to see, fairly commendable in fact and its at loggerheads with aarons ramblings in this thread; most gers fans have moved on and are looking forward, aaron seems to be acting like the obnoxious bulied kid at school bemoaning his plight whilst failing to realise that no one gives a shit.
  • President_Weasel 22 Nov 2012 12:30:18 8,972 posts
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    ResidentKnievel wrote:
    I'm the one who said Rangers were still cunts, not Pres_Wes.

    They're still cunts.
    To be fair, I do rather agree with Resi.
  • Mekanik 22 Nov 2012 12:38:41 3,429 posts
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    dufftownallan wrote:
    my "man up" request was to aaron constantly whining about people having a go at his club in this thread. my point is that rangers have always been hated, it's natural (albeit not condonable) that people will continue to put the boot into rangers, aaron would be better served rising above it and concentrating on matters at hand, and I urge that instead of lambasting fans of other clubs, he should be complaining about the people who run the scottish game, the real villains of this particular piece.

    pompey, the vast majority of gers fans have rallied behind their club and its been heartening to see, fairly commendable in fact and its at loggerheads with aarons ramblings in this thread; most gers fans have moved on and are looking forward, aaron seems to be acting like the obnoxious bulied kid at school bemoaning his plight whilst failing to realise that no one gives a shit.
    +1

    Aarons attitude in his posts is what puts me off bothering trying to converse in this thread.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 12:43:27 7,591 posts
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    I think you'll find there is actually a huge amount of anger about the situation for most rangers fans. If you can't see how wrong the whole situation is and how disgusting some (most) fans and authorities acted during that period then you're a part of the problem. I feel sorry for you that your hatred for Rangers is so strong that you feel no remorse about the things you've said or the delight you've taken from the situation. It's just a pitiful reminder of why we need to move away from Scotland. The only cheats in Scotland are those that claimed we were guilty without holding all the facts.

    Edited by AaronTurner at 12:44:10 22-11-2012
  • Armoured_Bear 22 Nov 2012 13:09:19 10,275 posts
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    Rangers fans with their anger and sense of injustice can go f*ck themselves, the idea that they've been hard done by is utterly laughable. They basically ruined Scottish football by spending way outwith their means (decision or not, they got away with avoiding millions in tax that other clubs around them didn't). This coupled with Bosman was the reason that so many clubs started bringing in expensive mediocre foreigners and shitting on youth development.
    Just compare the SPL pre-Murray with it nowadays.

    When Rangers went into liquidation (completely of their own doing) the SPL and SFA did everything in their powers and beyond to stop them having to go through what any other club in their situation would and their fans have never stopped whingeing.
    FFS just STFU,get on with football and you'll be back where you think you belong the season after next.
    As Gretna and Livingston fans how they feel, eh.

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  • dufftownallan 22 Nov 2012 13:21:47 4,723 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    I think you'll find there is actually a huge amount of anger about the situation for most rangers fans. If you can't see how wrong the whole situation is and how disgusting some (most) fans and authorities acted during that period then you're a part of the problem. I feel sorry for you that your hatred for Rangers is so strong that you feel no remorse about the things you've said or the delight you've taken from the situation. It's just a pitiful reminder of why we need to move away from Scotland. The only cheats in Scotland are those that claimed we were guilty without holding all the facts.
    who is this aimed at?
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 13:24:03 7,591 posts
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    Rangers were certainly not the only club in the UK using ebts, nor the only company. It turns out that our administration of them was correct. You're wrong in implying that administration and liquidation were entirely our own doing, the big tax case had a very serious effect on it and I have no doubt in my mind that the original company would still be standing if we didn't have to go through that and all the scare mongering.

    Again, regarding the SFA and spl trying to help us, can you explain that? They wanted us in the SPL with heavy sanctions do it would be impossible for us to win anything, how does that help? They have also withheld millions of pounds from us, again, how does this fit into your scenario?

    I tell you what though, I guess I should shut up, you've heard be talk for a couple of days and you lot were well within your rights to have a go for several years....
  • dufftownallan 22 Nov 2012 13:29:41 4,723 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    FFS just STFU,get on with football and you'll be back where you think you belong the season after next.
    hehe, division one?! ;o)
  • Gaol 22 Nov 2012 14:31:17 2,263 posts
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    No point in trying to get sympathy from these other fans Aaron, they've had years of watching us win stuff, I'm afraid the boots on the other foot for a wee while, that's life.

    In any case, it wasn't these fans that brought us down, or even the SFA/SPL - it was HMRC taking forever to bring this tax case to a resolution that made us unsellable; and I still think Murray has a lot to answer for. If he was so confident of the tax case he wouldn't have sold us to a known conman.
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