From now on I'll just download the games to save me the hassle that IS DRM Page 5

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  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 12:05:40 27,276 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    I don't have another point. It all seems to speak (or possibly scream) for itself.

    I'll throw The Witcher 2 into the mix though. (That's a PC game from last year, darkmorgado)

    But I'm not going to spell that one out, either. :p
    Well you sort of did, because you typed it ;-)

    But if we're going to talk about Witcher 2, I feel obliged to point out that CD Projekt have said it was pirated several million times, compared to about 1 million legitimate sales.

    So it's not quite a ringing endorsement for stating that DRM-free encourages legitimate purchases.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:11:20 12-11-2012

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • disusedgenius 12 Nov 2012 12:07:39 5,271 posts
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    bigbandluva wrote:
    The thing is that I would recieve a working product would I have downloaded it instead. Would I hade decided to get the game from TPB instead of the store I would probably had had a nice evening last night, instead of this shit. It's not right, IMHO.
    But if you'd had the internet connection to download said game you'd also have an activated, working game from the legit copy, no?
  • Chopsen 12 Nov 2012 12:08:12 15,834 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    But I'm not going to spell that one out, either. :p
    Why not? You're hardly going to win an argument by being obtuse. It just makes you look as if you don't actually have a point and other people will assume they've won, and you're just too much of a wendy to admit it.
  • RobTheBuilder 12 Nov 2012 12:24:51 6,521 posts
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    As with all piracy versus DRM debates does this not come down to the same few things as always?:

    1. Piracy is a massive problem

    2. However, to presume that all pirates will buy a game if they cannot pirate it is ludicrous.

    3. DRM is a pain in the ass that makes little difference to piracy, but annoys real customers.
  • sport 12 Nov 2012 12:27:30 12,677 posts
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    4. You wouldn't download a car.
  • disusedgenius 12 Nov 2012 12:27:53 5,271 posts
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    4. DRM as a service is great when it works (see: Steam) but there are limits (see: Ubisoft)
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 12:29:17 86,809 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    As with all piracy versus DRM debates does this not come down to the same few things as always?:

    1. Piracy is a massive problem

    2. However, to presume that all pirates will buy a game if they cannot pirate it is ludicrous.

    3. DRM is a pain in the ass that makes little difference to piracy, but annoys real customers.
    There is actually a principle at stake here as well. I don't think anyone thinks all pirates would buy the game if they didn't download it, but that doesn't mean they should just get what they want for free.
  • RobTheBuilder 12 Nov 2012 12:44:45 6,521 posts
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    @kalel I agree, but given DRM makes little difference as to whether they do or not, punishing those who DO buy the game seems wrong.

    I also wonder what links there are between piracy and game buying.
    As with music, where those who copy actually spend far more on music than those who don't.

    Maybe in many cases, pirating games leads to buying more games at a later date.

    For example: When I was younger, myself and other people used to always get given pirated games. We simply didn't have the money to buy them, so we copied them.

    However, pirating those games helped to make me a lifelong fan of gaming, and those pirated games are part of the reason I have been buying games ever since, and haven't pirated a game in probably a decade or more.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 12:45:22 12-11-2012
  • andytheadequate 12 Nov 2012 12:45:07 8,111 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    PenguinJim wrote:
    I don't have another point. It all seems to speak (or possibly scream) for itself.

    I'll throw The Witcher 2 into the mix though. (That's a PC game from last year, darkmorgado)

    But I'm not going to spell that one out, either. :p
    Well you sort of did, because you typed it ;-)

    But if we're going to talk about Witcher 2, I feel obliged to point out that CD Projekt have said it was pirated several million times, compared to about 1 million legitimate sales.

    So it's not quite a ringing endorsement for stating that DRM-free encourages legitimate purchases.
    But people who pirate games are unlikely to buy everything they pirate.

    I recently watched a dodgy copy of mission impossible ghost protocol but there was no way in hell I'd have bought a copy of it so they didn't lose a sale. If its free people will download something for the sake of it, like people do with demos. I downloaded tribes and team fortress 2 as they are free to play, played them for 30 minutes each and unlikely to ever touch them again. Suppose these weren't f2p and were actually pirated, would that mean both games had lost a sale? Of course not as I would never have paid for them
  • RobTheBuilder 12 Nov 2012 12:46:33 6,521 posts
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    I should add that one of the reasons we are getting all these annoying 'free now pay later' games is piracy. So if you pirate games and complain about them, it's your bloody fault.
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 12:47:15 86,809 posts
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    Also don't forget that pirating funds terrorism.

    Somehow.

    Apparently.
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 12:50:46 27,276 posts
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    andytheadequate wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    PenguinJim wrote:
    I don't have another point. It all seems to speak (or possibly scream) for itself.

    I'll throw The Witcher 2 into the mix though. (That's a PC game from last year, darkmorgado)

    But I'm not going to spell that one out, either. :p
    Well you sort of did, because you typed it ;-)

    But if we're going to talk about Witcher 2, I feel obliged to point out that CD Projekt have said it was pirated several million times, compared to about 1 million legitimate sales.

    So it's not quite a ringing endorsement for stating that DRM-free encourages legitimate purchases.
    But people who pirate games are unlikely to buy everything they pirate.
    I agree, but the argument works both ways, which is my point. There's also little to suggest beyond conjecture that removing DRM entirely would lead to a sales increase. So arguing either way is purely speculative and it's a question that can never be answered because, due to the nature of the problem, there will never be any solid data to go on.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • sport 12 Nov 2012 12:51:03 12,677 posts
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    I believe the pirates are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the pirate's laughter remind us how we used to be...
  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 12:57:08 23,697 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    I agree, but the argument works both ways, which is my point. There's also little to suggest beyond conjecture that removing DRM entirely would lead to a sales increase. So arguing either way is purely speculative and it's a question that can never be answered because, due to the nature of the problem, there will never be any solid data to go on.
    I think the way both Steam (limited hassle these days) and GOG are quite good examples of how well games sell when you make them less of a pain in the arse for the customer. You also have lots of limited or DRM free models in the indy scene to observe, some of which suffer from piracy more than others depending on their approach.

    So, it's not purely speculative and there is data to go on.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 13:04:32 27,276 posts
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    Possibly.

    I do wonder though what percentage of Steam (and GoG, but less so) purchases are simply for games that have been discounted by ridiculous amounts. A large amount of the games on there are actually pretty expensive when they're not on a sale.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • PenguinJim 12 Nov 2012 13:07:20 5,811 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    PenguinJim wrote:
    But I'm not going to spell that one out, either. :p
    Why not? You're hardly going to win an argument by being obtuse. It just makes you look as if you don't actually have a point and other people will assume they've won, and you're just too much of a wendy to admit it.
    But I'm not actually arguing anything - it's obvious that DRM is not directly linked to piracy.

    I don't blame people for knee-jerk-reacting and thinking DRM is a direct result of piracy. It's an obvious conclusion if you don't think about it. But what exactly could I possibly "win" here that I haven't already? darkmorgado is now making my point, too. :)

    It seems to be pretty pointless adding anything to this thread, anyway - see, RobTheBuilder didn't even look at the last page which would have corrected a lot of their 'misconceptions'. (POLITENESS)
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 13:08:56 27,276 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    darkmorgado is now making my point, too. :)
    I'm not convinced I am, unless I spectacularly misunderstood whatever point you were trying to make originally.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 12 Nov 2012 13:11:22 6,654 posts
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    When I used to pirate, I'd have so many games that ironically, I didn't play or invest very much time in them at all.

    Now I buy all my games, mostly off Steam if available or Origin, I wouldn't know how to go about getting cracked versions.

    I still don't equate piracy with criminality though, in terms of other people that choose to do it.
  • disusedgenius 12 Nov 2012 13:13:07 5,271 posts
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    Post deleted
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 13:14:00 86,809 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    I don't blame people for knee-jerk-reacting and thinking DRM is a direct result of piracy.
    Aw, how generous of you. Thanks.

    I believe it is a direct result of piracy. That doesn't mean I'm so naive as to think the many other advantages don't occur to devs and publishers and play a role, but fundamentally it was engineered around that issue.

    It's no cleverer to leap to the deeply cynical point of view than it is to think everyone in this world is honest and righteous.
  • superdelphinus 12 Nov 2012 13:38:49 8,038 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:

    I still don't equate piracy with criminality though, in terms of other people that choose to do it.
    I honestly don't understand this point of view. It's a fairly obvious example of criminal activity. Do you really mean you don't think it's that 'bad' of a criminal act?
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 12 Nov 2012 13:43:55 6,654 posts
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    Yep, I mean I grew up taping music off the radio and films off television.

    I see piracy as kind of an extension of that in terms of criminality.
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 13:48:50 86,809 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Yep, I mean I grew up taping music off the radio and films off television.

    I see piracy as kind of an extension of that in terms of criminality.
    You can see it how you want, but that's a bit of a stretch.

    it's more comparable to loading up a C90 with spectrum games at a mate's, but even at the age of 6 I knew that was wrong.
  • UncleLou Moderator 12 Nov 2012 13:49:36 35,492 posts
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    bad09 wrote:
    Yet DRM time and time again provides little or no protection.
    That might be true in many cases, but I am pretty certain (make that: absolutely sure) that the working always-online DRM of Diablo 3 played a major role in > 10 million copies sold.

    Edited by UncleLou at 13:49:53 12-11-2012
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 12 Nov 2012 13:54:20 6,654 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Yep, I mean I grew up taping music off the radio and films off television.

    I see piracy as kind of an extension of that in terms of criminality.
    You can see it how you want, but that's a bit of a stretch.

    it's more comparable to loading up a C90 with spectrum games at a mate's, but even at the age of 6 I knew that was wrong.
    Heh, I guess you're the better man. It didn't help that I used to work for a software developer and everybody else used to pirate, including the development tools and system software by the company itself.

    Nothing like peer acceptance.
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 13:58:01 86,809 posts
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    I think there is a bit of a grey area around stuff being publicly broadcast and recording it, then sharing it, possibly on a torrent to the world... I believe nobody has been taken to court over this yet.

    But the lengths you have to go to these days to pirate software with hacking and jail-breaking etc etc. It's not really a grey area.
  • Deleted user 12 November 2012 14:18:31
    UncleLou wrote:
    bad09 wrote:
    Yet DRM time and time again provides little or no protection.
    That might be true in many cases, but I am pretty certain (make that: absolutely sure) that the working always-online DRM of Diablo 3 played a major role in > 10 million copies sold.
    And steam DRM bumped up sales of FM enough to employ 17 more people.
  • JayG 12 Nov 2012 15:19:33 841 posts
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    It is kinda happening now with consoles though, look at the last James Bond game. You can't play Skyfall without a internet connection.
  • nickthegun 12 Nov 2012 15:26:38 59,365 posts
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    Its been happening for ages. I remember loading up mass effect 2 on the xbox when my broadband was down and origin telling me to go fuck myself if I wanted to play with the blood dragon armour.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

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