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  • Deleted user 24 September 2012 13:24:29
    MetalDog wrote:
    Do you really believe that the status of the family you're born into doesn't affect your prospects in education and employment?
    Money does, not class. A hundred years ago yes.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 13:26:13 23,697 posts
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    Yes, I'm not saying wealth is not a factor, just that it's not the sole factor. Wealth alone, as others have pointed out, tends not to alter people's perception of someone's class and it definitely doesn't alter their social skills - that takes time, new social peers, etc. Some people make the journey looks easy, others - like your lottery win man up there - crash and burn.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Ka-blamo 24 Sep 2012 13:28:07 7,306 posts
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    Whoever said to you metaldog that there is no class(system) anymore was a moron.

    The divisions are as evident as ever.
  • LeoliansBro 24 Sep 2012 13:28:39 43,639 posts
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    Are they?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deleted user 24 September 2012 13:30:28
    Where we would in the past label a class we would now probably identify as a minority group (even if the size remains the same).
  • Zidargh 24 Sep 2012 13:31:30 1,671 posts
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    The decadent divisions of 'class' do not exist anymore between the middle and working classes. Take for example my girlfriend's father. Technically, he is actually a 'Lord' in that his workplace bought him the title for a laugh. Indeed, whilst he doesn't live in a private estate, he does have a lovely old house in the centre of a historic town. However, he generally only associates himself with those you would call 'working class' down the local pub.

    Yes there is a disparity in wealth today, but conforming to a higher-class is usually a choice and generally makes you a pompous twat.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 13:36:25 23,697 posts
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    If we are all so horrified by the class system then, why is the label 'underclass' being used to indicate not just the wealth-level, but the supposed social attitude of the group so labelled?

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Ka-blamo 24 Sep 2012 13:37:05 7,306 posts
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    Bloodline, education, money, well brought up, values etc can be said to be the difference but there are exceptions to each one of those on both sides.

    It can be all reasons and none or one. It's a tough one.
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Sep 2012 13:37:32 39,411 posts
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    You talking about chavs?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Ka-blamo 24 Sep 2012 13:46:02 7,306 posts
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    Zidargh wrote:
    The decadent divisions of 'class' do not exist anymore between the middle and working classes. Take for example my girlfriend's father. Technically, he is actually a 'Lord' in that his workplace bought him the title for a laugh. Indeed, whilst he doesn't live in a private estate, he does have a lovely old house in the centre of a historic town. However, he generally only associates himself with those you would call 'working class' down the local pub.
    I'm technically a Princess, My work brought me a tiara for a laugh, Indeed, whilst I don't live in a castle, I do have a lovely bedsit in hackney. However, I generally only associate myself with those you would call 'middle class' down the pub.

    So as you can see the decadent divisions between the monarchy and the middle class don't exist anymore.

    If you want anymore anecdotes that explain topics I don't really understand then PM me.
  • Megapocalypse 24 Sep 2012 14:20:35 5,370 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    If we are all so horrified by the class system then, why is the label 'underclass' being used to indicate not just the wealth-level, but the supposed social attitude of the group so labelled?
    The 'underclass' is an entirely separate group and membership is voluntary. It is an attitude believing government and state owe you everything whilst contributing minimal if not nothing.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 14:29:50 23,697 posts
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    @Megapocalypse I disagree. The majority born into that group will have major disadvantages passed on to them by their parents, diet, environment, peers, society's attitude towards them and their financial status. Most will not overcome these disadvantages on their own. A minority will buck the trend, but most won't. That's not just an attitude and it's not entirely voluntary.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • LeoliansBro 24 Sep 2012 14:32:56 43,639 posts
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    Diet?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 14:34:43 23,697 posts
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    Diet while you're growing up can affect your brain in some fairly lifelong-effect ways.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Deckard1 24 Sep 2012 14:36:39 27,582 posts
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    Mowgli thinks he's a hamburger

    Hush you ponce

  • LeoliansBro 24 Sep 2012 14:41:16 43,639 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    If we are all so horrified by the class system then, why is the label 'underclass' being used to indicate not just the wealth-level, but the supposed social attitude of the group so labelled?
    It's this I don't agree with. You've merged two different concepts into one, those on low incomes, and the (admittedly large subset of this) those who are lazy, feckless, Daily Mail fodder.

    Nobody else is doing this in here (that I can see).

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 14:52:07 23,697 posts
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    If I understand you correctly - and I'm not convinced I do - I think the concepts are often linked. Take it up to the other end and you see the same sort of thing, don't you? Eton old boys, etc.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 14:59:12 86,783 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    Do you really believe that the status of the family you're born into doesn't affect your prospects in education and employment?
    "Status", like "class" is a word wrapped up in different interpretations that will just drive this towards a semantic discussion.

    The factor that by far the most determines your prospects for education and ultimately employment is wealth. An upper class family that loses all its money will have far less opportunity than a plumber who earns 90k. The class thing is a red herring.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 15:06:35 23,697 posts
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    We'll have to agree to disagree, I think. My folks were working class when I came along, but my father's, mother's previous middle class upbringing had a trickle down affect on me in the form of moral instruction, diet, aspirations, reading, culture, outlook, radio 4 listening habits ;)

    I think you lose that sort of thing pretty quickly from the point of wealth removal though. A couple of generations down the line if you're not actively trying to maintain it, perhaps. Almost certainly the same going up too.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 16:01:15 86,783 posts
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    The only class I believe still really exists in this country is the upper class. That really is a closed club that you're either born into, or you're not, and even buying Harrods doesn't get you there.

    Working and middle though, the line is very blurred, and the fact that you can move between them to me suggests they are not classes in the truest sense.
  • LeoliansBro 24 Sep 2012 16:02:51 43,639 posts
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    Alan Clark noted in his diaries that a friend had commented on Michael Heseltine: 'An alright sort of chap, but you see he had to buy his own furniture.'

    There's the remnant of the old class system, right there.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

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