Revolution in the middle east Page 54

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  • kalel 15 Nov 2012 11:08:25 86,414 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    Both sides could grow up, stop posturing and pouting and sit at a table and talk. Other countries have managed this, why not Israel & Palestine?
    That's a huge simplification of a situation that doesn't really show any understanding of the history or psyche of either side.
  • senso-ji 15 Nov 2012 11:09:46 5,797 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    Both sides could grow up, stop posturing and pouting and sit at a table and talk. Other countries have managed this, why not Israel & Palestine?
    I think it's because of their stagnant leaders. Arafat was the Palestinian's representative for god know how long and Israel, despite being one of the few democracies in the region, insists on keeping Barak, Netanyahu and Peres at the forefront of their governments.

    This issue will only resolve itself when both Israel and Palestine elect new, tolerant, forward thinking politicians that are willing to make huge sacrifices to achieve peace.
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:10:30 6,521 posts
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    @kalel good analogy. Except it misses out all the other stuff the soldier does/has done that the people are angry about.
  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 11:10:51 826 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    This issue will only resolve itself when both Israel and Palestine elect new, tolerant, forward thinking politicians that are willing to make huge sacrifices to achieve peace.
    Hahahahaha... forward thinking politicians. Man you're hilarious.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 11:11:35 43,244 posts
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    Pity when the Allies were sat round in the ruins of WW2 and someone stuck the 'Where Shall We Put This New Israel' form under Churchill's nose, he didn't go with Canada.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • MetalDog 15 Nov 2012 11:12:19 23,708 posts
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    A lot of the trouble is that both sides have been treated really, really badly and people that have been brutalised tend to act like utter cunts. They don't think 'oh, that was horrible, I should behave differently', they go and do unto others as has been done unto them.

    The only way for this to ever resolve is for large powers to stop enabling both sides and really pressure them both to pack it in. Israel needs to give back land its stolen, Palestine needs to declare the rest Israel's land now. It will not end until both of those things happen.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • jellyhead 15 Nov 2012 11:13:27 24,350 posts
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    @disusedgenius Ok.

    Both sides could grow up, stop murdering each other and sit at a table and talk. Other countries have managed this, why not Israel & Palestine?

    ... but it won't happen until something catastrophic occurs that demands intervention. They have been killing each other for so long that i doubt either side has a chance to calm the rabid dogs on their own sides down enough to talk properly.

    There's so much wrong thinking on both sides it astounds me. Peace> I think both sides have been at this for too long for that to be an option.

    This signature intentionally left blank.

  • sport 15 Nov 2012 11:14:46 12,576 posts
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    I think we need the power of social media to bring about change!
  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 11:15:09 826 posts
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    It’s way beyond such a romantically simple solution now. This won’t end until one side is left bloody and beaten on the ground. At that point everyone will round on whoever’s left standing and start tutting at them. That is, unfortunately, just the way the shitty UN works.
  • kalel 15 Nov 2012 11:17:37 86,414 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @kalel good analogy. Except it misses out all the other stuff the soldier does/has done that the people are angry about.
    I wasn't actually trying to sum up the last thousand years with that analogy. It was a comment on the views about one side having disproportionate military might to the other.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 11:17:49 43,244 posts
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    it's an old school scrap for land in a modern age empathy driven world.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 15 Nov 2012 11:19:18 86,414 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    A lot of the trouble is that both sides have been treated really, really badly and people that have been brutalised tend to act like utter cunts. They don't think 'oh, that was horrible, I should behave differently', they go and do unto others as has been done unto them.

    The only way for this to ever resolve is for large powers to stop enabling both sides and really pressure them both to pack it in. Israel needs to give back land its stolen, Palestine needs to declare the rest Israel's land now. It will not end until both of those things happen.
    Yes.

    The solution is actually probably in other world affairs having an unpredictable effect. Could be economy, environment, a different war etc etc.

    That was kind of how the Irish situation made such progress in the end.
  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 11:19:44 826 posts
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    They should go for the Star Trek solution to this mess.

    Abbas and Nety should have a shirtless cage match with impractical looking spears. The winner gets to keep the whole shitty region.

    My money would be on Abbas. He looks like a biter.
  • 4gate 15 Nov 2012 11:19:48 362 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @kalel good analogy. Except it misses out all the other stuff the soldier does/has done that the people are angry about.
    It also misses out the fact the soldier has watched his family annihilated periodically, with much worse things than rocks, whenever someone needs a scapegoat.

    Edited by 4gate at 11:21:13 15-11-2012
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:20:30 6,521 posts
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    @kalel Fair enough.

    The thing that sickens me is how most of the world seems to view Palestinian lives as being worth a fraction of Israeli lives. After so many years of persecution you'd think Jewish people would be able to recognise themselves doing it.
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:21:34 6,521 posts
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    @SClaw all the while the prettiest girl in the land is waiting to kiss him...
  • senso-ji 15 Nov 2012 11:23:58 5,797 posts
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    sport wrote:
    I think we need the power of social media to bring about change!
    I take it you haven't read the tweets between the IDF and AlQassam Brigade...
  • whatfruit 15 Nov 2012 11:24:57 1,291 posts
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    The problem is after this much conflict and propogated hatred between Isreael and Palestine, the only soultion that will satisfy both parites is the complete annihlation and destruction of the other.

    Isreal cares little for international rules or directives, because it has never severly punsihed by the international community when it does use disproprotiante force. Someone used the analogy of Isreal as a neglected dog that attacks defensively when ever it is threatend. I prefer to think of it as Staffie Bull terrier that has never been trained, so it terriorsies the neighbourhood while it's handalers offer meek apologies after it has torn the face off some child.
  • Chopsen 15 Nov 2012 11:25:01 15,727 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    @disusedgenius Ok.

    Both sides could grow up, stop murdering each other and sit at a table and talk. Other countries have managed this, why not Israel & Palestine?

    ... but it won't happen until something catastrophic occurs t
    Well, yeah, that's the point isn't it?

    We've only seen peace in the West because we've repeatedly been shown the consequences of solving problems through warfare, and what happens when you take that to its logical conclusion (the world wars), and have stood at the edge of sending the whole world to oblivion during the cold war.

    There will be some kind of catastrophic, possibly nuclear, military/paramilitary event, and then everybody will calm the fuck down.
  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 11:26:55 826 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    sport wrote:
    I think we need the power of social media to bring about change!
    I take it you haven't read the tweets between the IDF and AlQassam Brigade...
    That part is so surreal I'm not even sure I believe it. Two sides, having an actual warish thing, somewhat dissing each other on friggin' twitter? Welcome to the 21st century folks. It's alllllll broken.
  • kalel 15 Nov 2012 11:28:24 86,414 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    The thing that sickens me is how most of the world seems to view Palestinian lives as being worth a fraction of Israeli lives.
    I don't think that's quite true, I think if anything the world's sympathies are starting to shift the other way now. Most people seem to sympathise more with the Palestinian cause (and rightly so). Certainly the majority of the media (BBC, Guardian, Times etc) have shifted to a pro-Palestine viewpoint. It's only really the Torygraph and the Fail who are predictably not.

    After so many years of persecution you'd think Jewish people would be able to recognise themselves doing it.
    Well, yes. A horrible irony. Again though, Israel don't see beyond their own protectionism. They just don't give a fuck about anything else.
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:31:00 6,521 posts
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    @kalel actually I agree that most of the general public have a sympathy with Palestine, however governments and media still either back Israel blindly or ignore the whole problem.
  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 11:38:41 6,987 posts
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    Oh, I forgot something to add to the analogy. We could add multitudes of people, locally and internationally, having no direct connection to any of this, who nevertheless for some reason feel they must support one "side" of the rock-thrower/gun-holder conflict exclusively. Either you're against those fascist gun-holders, or those other fascist rock-throwers. There's no middle ground here. Pick a side, bitch, and stick with it until the end.
  • whatfruit 15 Nov 2012 11:39:28 1,291 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    The thing that sickens me is how most of the world seems to view Palestinian lives as being worth a fraction of Israeli lives.
    I don't think that's quite true, I think if anything the world's sympathies are starting to shift the other way now. Most people seem to sympathise more with the Palestinian cause (and rightly so). Certainly the majority of the media (BBC, Guardian, Times etc) have shifted to a pro-Palestine viewpoint. It's only really the Torygraph and the Fail who are predictably not.
    The BBC if is has changed its view towards Israels actions this must have been very recently. During the 2008 Gaza war the BBC prohibited Tony Benn from reading out a charity fund raising number for Palestenian humnatarian aid.

    During the 2006 Lebanon war the BBC called it a war between Isreal and Hezbollah, glossing over that Isreal pretty much flattened Bierut and large parts of southern Lebanon. They also failed to report, or chose to omit that while the war did begin because Hezbollah took a number of Isreal soldiers hostage, they did this in order to use them as leverage to get a number of their supporters released who had been subject to illegal rendtion, and who continoue to be held as poltical prisonrs in Isreal to this day.

    Edited by whatfruit at 11:43:04 15-11-2012
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 11:41:58 43,244 posts
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    There's a real danger of oversimplifying in this thread. Someone's going to say 'people feel bad for what's happening to Palestinians now but also bad for what happened to Jews then' in a minute.

    Oops, I just did. GODWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 15 Nov 2012 11:42:14 86,414 posts
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    Another thing is that if we're going to mention America and the West's dubious role in supporting Israel, I think it's only fair also to mention the likes of Iran and Syria's role in the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas.

    Again, this is a total clusterfuck.
  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 11:44:19 6,987 posts
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    Richard Koshimizu knows what's really going on.
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:49:25 6,521 posts
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    @Mola_Ram The one side or the other thing is a problem, but given most of the world's powers seem to support Israel no matter what they do, it's not surprising people want to back the Palestinians.
  • disusedgenius 15 Nov 2012 11:52:03 5,225 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    but given most of the world's powers seem to support Israel no matter what they do
    That's actually a false statement though. The world is pretty split on it - it just depends on where you get your news.
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:54:31 6,521 posts
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    @disusedgenius It doesn't ever appear that way, especially given the US and their total support.

    It's definitely less one sided than it used to be though, that is a good thing.
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