The UK General Politics Thread Page 63

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  • thedaveeyres 3 Dec 2012 15:14:40 11,252 posts
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    What about the aardvarks? Will somebody please think of the aardvarks.

    D****** ******r

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  • Deleted user 3 December 2012 15:14:51
    Well, the only thing I can think of, without a great deal of knowledge is to raise VAT. The only fair solution is to tie tax to the transaction.

    Taking starbucks as the example, if they don't like the cost profit ratio of a cup of coffee, they are free to fuck off.

    Someone will sell a cup.
  • LeoliansBro 3 Dec 2012 15:15:50 44,505 posts
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    whatfruit wrote:
    @LeoliansBro because the hole is too big and needs filling now is how I read it.
    No it isn't that - they're specifically prevented from doing it, and the other options open to them will not drive the increase in capital any more quickly.

    I think it is to drive a certain behaviour in the banks, but in the absence of a logical fiscal purpose to it, it is an artificial construct and the Government's track record with those should convince the BoE to steer well clear in this instance.

    I hope there's a better reason than that though.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Psychotext 3 Dec 2012 15:23:26 54,391 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Well, the only thing I can think of, without a great deal of knowledge is to raise VAT. The only fair solution is to tie tax to the transaction.
    Super, but I bet they wouldn't reduce personal taxation to cover the difference. It would be a pure cash grab.
  • Deleted user 3 December 2012 15:25:53
    heh like I said I'm not an expert but I'd rather err on the side of socialism :p
  • Moot_Point 4 Dec 2012 16:25:32 4,332 posts
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    You're sacked!

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 16:34:11 27,410 posts
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    What annoys me most about the whole thing isn't necessarily that the corporations do it - as LB said they have an obligation to be as efficient as possible - it's the successive failure of governments to simplify the tax system that causes this shit to happen and be viable in the first place, as well as the fact that they railroad over normal people but are happy to enter into "discussions" with large companies about how much they want to pay.

    I also can't help but feel that in simplifying the tax system and getting rid of so much of the stupid red tape (exactly how many different tax codes are there now?), whatever loss they make in people resultantly paying less tax they will make up in the huge savings of no longer needing to administer such a ridiculously convoluted system, possibly making the whole exercise financially neutral for government whilst improving the experience for the public (which is, surely, the ultimate purpose of government - to make things as good for the public as possible at the least possible expense, especially for a Tory administration).

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  • LeoliansBro 4 Dec 2012 16:37:28 44,505 posts
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    With huge savings comes huge unemployment.

    /Fiscal Uncle Ben

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Moot_Point 4 Dec 2012 16:47:39 4,332 posts
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    We all knew the Tories would strip the infrastructure of this country to cut spending, so I am surprised those in the civil service have kept their jobs for so long.

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 16:48:31 27,410 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    We all knew the Tories would strip the infrastructure of this country to cut spending, so I am surprised those in the civil service have kept their jobs for so long.
    You need to watch more Yes, Minister ;-)

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  • LeoliansBro 4 Dec 2012 16:49:57 44,505 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    We all knew the Tories would strip the infrastructure of this country to cut spending, so I am surprised those in the civil service have kept their jobs for so long.
    Just like we all know that Labour bloat the civil service in an attempt to control everything centrally and decide everything for you, and the Lib Dems try to remain relevant but are increasingly unheard.

    There are plenty of Tory policies I find abhorrent, but I'd rather see a leaner civil service.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 16:51:01 27,410 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    With huge savings comes huge unemployment.

    /Fiscal Uncle Ben
    Civil Servants aren't human beings ;)

    Joking aside, it's better to end up with a more efficient administration (ESPECIALLY in HMRC) than a stripped back and woefully under-equipped public service.

    There's also an argument to be had that a more efficient tax system across the board would be good for the private sector and growth in general, freeing up personal income whilst giving businesses room to breath, grow and for smaller businesses to be established.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 16:55:00 04-12-2012

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  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 16:54:23 27,410 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Moot_Point wrote:
    We all knew the Tories would strip the infrastructure of this country to cut spending, so I am surprised those in the civil service have kept their jobs for so long.
    Just like we all know that Labour bloat the civil service in an attempt to control everything centrally and decide everything for you, and the Lib Dems try to remain relevant but are increasingly unheard.

    There are plenty of Tory policies I find abhorrent, but I'd rather see a leaner civil service.
    On the basic principles, Lib Dems are, like the Tories all for a smaller central government, the difference is they advocate going about it through localism and giving more of a say and freedom to local administrations who are best placed to know the needs of their own community whilst the Tories prefer a strong central government, albeit smaller and cheaper to run.

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  • LeoliansBro 4 Dec 2012 16:55:44 44,505 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    With huge savings comes huge unemployment.

    /Fiscal Uncle Ben
    Civil Servants aren't human beings ;)

    Joking aside, it's better to end up with a more efficient administration than a stripped back and woefully under-equipped public service.

    There's also an argument to be had that a more efficient tax system across the board would be good for the private sector and growth in general, freeing up personal income whilst giving businesses room to breath, grow and for smaller businesses to be established.
    Right, this is an odd combination of non-sequiteurs and parrot-fashion party politicking:

    'More efficient administration' means fewer staff. Where do you think the costs of the bureaucracy are?

    'Woefully underequipped public service' is a strawman. Why is that what is happening here?

    And you think central savings should go towards reduced taxes to help enrich consumers and help small businesses (which don't really need help in this way as they only pay taxes if they're profitable). Why prioritise this over closing the deficit?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deleted user 4 December 2012 16:57:12
    DM doesn't contribute by paying taxes anyway. He shouldn't get a say in political matters.
  • Moot_Point 4 Dec 2012 16:57:38 4,332 posts
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    @LeoliansBro If by lean, you mean overworked and stressed due to pressure, then that's exactly what we'll get. And I am sure all the sacked workers who will have to claim benefits (I doubt all will get redundancy) are loving being jobless, knowing the system they have help set up will screw them over.

    Edited by Moot_Point at 16:59:22 04-12-2012

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • LeoliansBro 4 Dec 2012 16:58:12 44,505 posts
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    I don't know, we could use his special brain as a kind of Casio Mentat.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 17:08:52 27,410 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    DM doesn't contribute by paying taxes anyway. He shouldn't get a say in political matters.
    I pay plenty of tax thanks.

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  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 17:17:55 27,410 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I'll tackle these ones separately.

    'More efficient administration' means fewer staff. Where do you think the costs of the bureaucracy are?
    I never said it wasn't as it's an inevitable byproduct of greater efficiency.

    'Woefully underequipped public service' is a strawman. Why is that what is happening here?
    The increase in burden on front-line staff (not just talking the obvious candidates such as the NHS here but in general) and reduction in services is one of the undeniable effects of where the cuts are being targeted.

    And you think central savings should go towards reduced taxes to help enrich consumers and help small businesses (which don't really need help in this way as they only pay taxes if they're profitable). Why prioritise this over closing the deficit?
    Greater growth and more successful businesses = more VAT, more exmployment in the long run, and overall a greater Tax take across all aspects of taxation (excepting perhaps inheritance) whilst the byproduct of job creation from growth leading to greater employment and lowering the burden of welfare.

    I never said reduced taxes, I said a more efficient system - people overpay tax just as often as they underpay it. The whole lot combined wouldn't in itself enough to sort things out single-handedly of course, but I think overall and in the long-run, the benefits would outweigh the immediate impact of a spike in unemployment and a cost in implementing a new system.

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  • LeoliansBro 4 Dec 2012 17:18:30 44,505 posts
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    Genuine question: on what income? I thought you were living on your disability and NHS cash settlement. You don't sublet as your thunderbumming housemate left and with current interest rates I can't see you earning any investment returns worth a damn.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 17:21:56 27,410 posts
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    I do sublet actually, I got a much better replacement (and in the process ironed out all the holes that caused the problems last time)!

    I have a modest personal income based on various bits here and there (which is declared).

    Plus, tax isn't simply income tax - VAT, fuel, alcohol and tobacco duty, and also even people who receive benefits are still liable to pay income tax on those benefits if certain ones take them over their personal allowance.

    But, if it's all the same to you, I would really rather discuss the issue than have yet another thread being turned to focus on my own personal affairs.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 17:22:36 04-12-2012

    Edited by darkmorgado at 17:23:12 04-12-2012

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  • chopsen 4 Dec 2012 17:32:40 16,125 posts
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    You've used this place like your personal blog, documenting in tedious detail every last minutiae of your little life for us all, and you're getting all cagey about what your income is for? Hmmmmm.... I wonder what it is you do for money that even *you* don't want to tell us all about it.
  • mrpon 4 Dec 2012 17:37:52 29,183 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    I do sublet actually, I got a much better replacement (and in the process ironed out all the holes that caused the problems last time)!
    So you did shag him!

    Give yourself 5 or gig, you're worth it.

  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 17:42:29 27,410 posts
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    mrpon wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    I do sublet actually, I got a much better replacement (and in the process ironed out all the holes that caused the problems last time)!
    So you did shag him!
    Lol, no.

    Theres an assumption on this place that I am a totally open book and discuss absolutely everything, just because I discuss a lot. That's not accurate.

    My other reason here was clear - This is a general discussion, my thoughts were offered without any context to personal experience, and I am sure I'm not the only one that finds it tedious when threads end up derailing into endlessly more pedantic and demanding questions about the minutaie of my personal affairs in order to scrutinise and criticise me.

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  • spamdangled 4 Dec 2012 17:43:06 27,410 posts
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    /back to topic

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  • Moot_Point 5 Dec 2012 12:07:54 4,332 posts
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    Stop lying!

    David Cameron and Jeremy Hunt have been ordered to stop claiming that NHS spending has increased after the official statistics watchdog found health funds had fallen.

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • whatfruit 5 Dec 2012 13:00:26 1,605 posts
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    anyone watching the budget who is not at work? fancy posting us some info, I will let you touch my weasal.

    bobomb wrote:
    so it's not really on her terms, it's on his terms, because she isn't real.

  • spamdangled 5 Dec 2012 13:14:16 27,410 posts
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    I have it on, but nothing massively exciting so far.

    It's mainly blah blah here's some statistics blah blah businesses so far, though I missed the first 10-15 minutes.

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  • X201 5 Dec 2012 13:26:19 15,576 posts
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20606382


    FUEL
    The 3p-a-litre increase in fuel duty, planned for next January, is cancelled

    BENEFITS AND PENSIONS
    Most working-age benefits to rise by 1% for each of next three years

    From 2014-15 lifetime pension relief allowance to fall from 1.5m to 1.25m

    Basic state pension to rise by 2.5% next year

    Child benefit to rise by 1% for two years from April 2014

    Local housing allowance rates to rise in line with existing policy next April but increases in the following two years capped at 1%

    Changes to welfare to save 3.7bn by 2015-16

    TAXES AND ALLOWANCES
    Basic income tax threshold to be raised by 235 more than previously announced next year, to 9,440

    Threshold for 40% rate of income tax to rise by 1% in 2014 and 2015, from 41,450 to 41,865 and then 42,285

    Main rate of corporation tax to be cut by extra 1% to 21% from April 2014

    Inheritance tax threshold to be increased by 1% next year

    Bank levy rate to be increased to 0.130% next year.

    5bn over six years expected from treaty with Switzerland to deal with undisclosed bank accounts

    HM Revenue and Customs budget will not be cut

    ISA contribution limit to be raised to 11,520 from next April

    No new tax on property value

    No net rise in taxes in Autumn Statement

    ECONOMIC GROWTH
    Predicted to be -0.1%, down from 0.8% predicted in the Budget

    Forecasts for next few years are: 1.2% in 2013, 2% in 2014, 2.3% 2015,
    2.7% in 2016 and 2.8% in 2017

    GOVERNMENT BORROWING/SPENDING
    Point at which debt predicted to begin falling delayed by a year to 2016-17

    Deficit is forecast to fall this year, as is cash borrowing

    Deficit to fall from 7.9% to 6.9% of GDP this year, to continue falling to 1.6% by 2017-18

    33bn saving to be made on interest debt payment predicted two years ago

    Deficit fallen by a quarter in last two years

    Government spending as share of GDP predicted to fall from 48% in 2009-10 to 39.5% in 2017-18

    Spending review to take place in first half of next year

    Departments to reduce spending by 1% next year and 2% year after

    JOBS AND TRAINING
    Unemployment expected to peak at 8.3%

    TRANSPORT
    Extra 1bn to roads, including upgrade to M1

    1bn loan to extend London's Northern Line to Battersea

    EDUCATION AND FAMILIES
    1bn to improve good schools and build 100 new free schools and academies

    270m for further education colleges

    INFRASTRUCTURE
    Ultra-fast broadband expansion in 12 cities

    600m for scientific research

    Annual infrastructure investment now 33bn

    1bn extra capital for Business Bank

    Gas Strategy to includes consultation on incentives for shale gas

    OVERSEAS AID
    Promise to spend 0.7% on development to be honoured next year, but not exceeded

    Edited by X201 at 13:27:38 05-12-2012
  • LeoliansBro 5 Dec 2012 13:31:21 44,505 posts
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    X201 wrote:

    1bn extra capital for Business Bank

    That'll be because they upped the capital requirement for banks a couple of days ago. Not a penny for business lending.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

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