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  • jamievilla 3 Dec 2012 13:20:48 523 posts
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    Mourinho available in the Summer apparently. Commence the scramble.
  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 13:24:02 86,962 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    You can see why the fans might want to get someone else in before Wenger leads them off a cliff - the problem is who else would you get in?
    You could take a chance on someone like Martinez, but what if it all goes horribly wrong?
    Similar issue to us with Harry (although without the being a dick about pay rises to make the decision easier).

    Problem is that any team that isn't bankrolled by billionaires is going to hit a glass ceiling, and probably no manager can get past that.

    But yeah, even with the risk of dropping out the CL, I don't think they'd sack Wenger. He's earned more than that. Another season like the last few though will imo be the final straw come the summer.
  • TheSaint 3 Dec 2012 13:27:42 14,303 posts
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    Far too late for the post it was referring to.

    Edited by TheSaint at 13:28:05 03-12-2012
  • The-Bodybuilder 3 Dec 2012 13:44:27 14,135 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Another season like the last few though will imo be the final straw come the summer.
    Which just so happens to coincide with his contract finishing.
    He's already said he's going nowhere this morning. Board will never sack him, so there.

    Still wished we got AVB. No matter how much the media wanted to jump on his back, in the bigger picture, he's actually doing good job.

    Surprise, good manager in doing good job (chelsea doesn't count for anyone).
  • Shikasama 3 Dec 2012 14:36:16 6,756 posts
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    I do think it is sad to for Wenger's legacy to be tarnished by the current state of the Premier League. Whatever his success with Arsenal the man had a great, great influence on football in this country and his philosophies (I mean that in the true sense of the word, not the Rogers sense) have been used around the globe.

    In the modern premier league era I think there have only been three men to change and evolve football on a fundamental level and they are Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho.
  • LeoliansBro 3 Dec 2012 14:40:26 43,816 posts
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    Shikasama wrote:
    I do think it is sad to for Wenger's legacy to be tarnished by the current state of the Premier League. Whatever his success with Arsenal the man had a great, great influence on football in this country and his philosophies (I mean that in the true sense of the word, not the Rogers sense) have been used around the globe.

    In the modern premier league era I think there have only been three men to change and evolve football on a fundamental level and they are Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho.
    Abramovich :D

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 14:40:42 86,962 posts
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    Probably fair.
  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 14:42:48 86,962 posts
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    The only thing I will say is that money and financial doping and all that isn't the only thing that have stopped Arsenal having more success in recent years. Wenger spoke of an experiment about six or seven years ago, and it has failed irrespective of financial doping.
  • nickthegun 3 Dec 2012 14:44:02 59,454 posts
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    you could make a case for kenny and the first team of harlem globetrotters.

    Or keegan and the 'were going to score two more than you' era.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • THFourteen 3 Dec 2012 14:48:41 33,186 posts
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    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    Still wished we got AVB. No matter how much the media wanted to jump on his back, in the bigger picture, he's actually doing good job.
    Ugh no thanks. No matter what i think of him as a manager, the last thing i would want is his smug weasley face associated with our club every time i turn on the tv or go on the club website. And his wierd crouching shit.

    I in no way think Wenger should be sacked, but come the end of his contract i will be happy for a change. I think there are too many Arsenal fans afraid of change. I don't buy this "OMG if wenger leaves we will go down and down and down and be shit" attitude. He has done a huge amount for arsenal football club, but in the last few years, he has (IMO) been overseeing us become slightly worse and slightly worse every time. I disagree with his transfer policy - not so much allowing players who want to leave to leave, but more his continual purchase of huge money players on huge wages who turn out to be shit - arshavin, chamakh, gervinho, giroud, etc etc.

    Also his youth policy has failed, our team is fully made up of very expensive purchased players barring Wilshire and Gibbs (who is injured all the time anyway). He has taken good quality young players like Ramsey, Walcott and the OC and failed to move them forwards in the manner i would have expected given their potential. And he has taken reasonable quality experienced players eg Arshavin and turded them out too.

    Having said all that, the quality of the side on paper, has not matched up to the performances in the league or in big cup games for a few years now. I think motivational skills are definitely an issue, as is the refusal to change the 4-3-3 system which hasn't worked for 5+ years.

    There is something wrong, and something has been wrong for a while.

    I am totally happy to ride out the storm and wait for him to leave (i dont think he will be able to fix the mess he's made), it saddens me that he will leave with the fans booing him as he doesnt deserve it, but its time for a change.

    If it doesnt work out with the new manager we can sack them, and find another one, same as we did with stewart houston and bruce rioch. We may laugh at chelsea, but actually there is nothing wrong with sacking managers who don't work out, you can give people time, but it doesn't need to be endless.

    In the industry i work in, if you are shit you get fired and everyone around you goes "yeah he was a bit shit wasnt he" not "OMG we should have given him time".

    football is a job and a business, not a sport or anything for enjoyment or entertainment so there should be no qualms about that.

    Edited by THFourteen at 14:49:02 03-12-2012
  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 14:51:01 86,962 posts
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    Have you seen Wenger's face?
  • THFourteen 3 Dec 2012 14:51:33 33,186 posts
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    Not from my position in the stadium no, i did not see the face.
  • Blotto 3 Dec 2012 14:52:44 2,773 posts
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    I do wonder however whether the "experiment" was what he really wanted to do or brought about because of limited finances from the Stadium move and the inflated player prices and wages brought about by doping.
  • nickthegun 3 Dec 2012 14:56:39 59,454 posts
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    Financial doping doesnt turn decent players bad almost overnight.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 15:00:38 86,962 posts
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    Blotto wrote:
    I do wonder however whether the "experiment" was what he really wanted to do or brought about because of limited finances from the Stadium move and the inflated player prices and wages brought about by doping.
    Contradicts what TH14 is saying about you actually spending a reasonable amount on shit players.
  • QotSAfan 3 Dec 2012 15:02:50 1,687 posts
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    @THFourteen I agree with all that, however, personally I want Wenger out by this January before he can spend any transfer funds and muck it up for a new manager. Would love it if we got Moyes or Vincenzo Montella. Plenty of potentially great managers in the world at the moment, they just need a shot at the big time.
  • Blotto 3 Dec 2012 15:04:24 2,773 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Blotto wrote:
    I do wonder however whether the "experiment" was what he really wanted to do or brought about because of limited finances from the Stadium move and the inflated player prices and wages brought about by doping.
    Contradicts what TH14 is saying about you actually spending a reasonable amount on shit players.
    The experiment is well and truly over now though, he's replaced it with buying shit players with the occasional good player. (FWIW I think Giroud is pretty good).
  • thedaveeyres 3 Dec 2012 15:04:48 10,884 posts
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    I think Wenger's dream was to leave Arsenal having entirely paid up the new stadium, all the while maintaining Champions League football. He so nearly did it... still might. Either way, it's a noble aim and a decent situation to leave the club in. Unfortunately for Arsenal, they've been bought out by a chump who is unlikely to build on the incredible financial foundation AW has forged.

    D****** ******r

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  • Kay 3 Dec 2012 15:10:17 17,820 posts
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    QotSAfan wrote:
    @THFourteen I agree with all that, however, personally I want Wenger out by this January before he can spend any transfer funds and muck it up for a new manager. Would love it if we got Moyes or Vincenzo Montella. Plenty of potentially great managers in the world at the moment, they just need a shot at the big time.
    That's crazy. He certainly won't leave now, with his Arsenal reputation at an all-time low, and risk fans remembering him this way. He's got a couple of years left on his contract, and he'll at the very least see them out. As far as he's concerned, in 2014 if he leaves the club still in the CL and in a healthy financial position for his successor to build on, that will be a success.

    Edited by Kay at 15:12:27 03-12-2012
  • Kay 3 Dec 2012 15:15:09 17,820 posts
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    This bit from F365 sums it up well:

    Five wins from the first 15 games is worrying; a five-point gap to fourth is not insurmountable. It's time for a reality check at Arsenal.

    As I wrote after the north London derby, the thrashing of Spurs only papered over the cracks in the team's performances and that win remains the Gunners' sole victory in their last six Premier League matches. But talk of an era ending following Saturday's 2-0 home defeat to Swansea is both pre- and post-mature; the club are still in three cup competitions this season, while a title tilt has been impossible for a number of years.

    Arsene Wenger has made a rod for his own back after claiming Arsenal could win the Premier League in September, but it would have been foolish for anyone to have believed the manager. This is an incredibly tough division - the European Champions only finished sixth last year - and after losing Robin van Persie in the summer, the Gunners were bound to struggle in their fight for fourth.

    Chelsea are also finding life difficult at the moment, with one win in their last seven top-flight matches. But the difference between the Blues and Arsenal is that Roman Abramovich will probably spend 46million on Falcao in January to serve as a (relatively) short-term fix. This financial doping maintains a glass ceiling at the top of the table that Arsenal currently have no hope of smashing through.

    For a club that has won the Premier League three times in the last 15 years, it's difficult to accept second best but, as much as Arsenal appear to be in a period of decline, their seven-year slump is mainly influenced by the rising power of money. Wenger spoke of the team's psychological issues after Saturday's defeat and these extend to the club as a whole, with Arsenal forced to acknowledge they are now only leaders of the chasing pack.

    With the Premier League out of reach for the foreseeable future, Arsenal realistically have only three trophies they can challenge for each season. Of those, the Champions League has been dominated by one of the best teams in history over the last six years (since they narrowly beat the Gunners in the 2006 final), the FA Cup has been won by only six clubs in the last 17 years (four of which have won the Premier League in that time), and the League Cup is seen as a fifth-rate competition (below Champions League qualification), with Liverpool's achievement last season dismissed by their rivals.

    Football is largely uncompetitive and after several years at the top it seems Gooners are only just starting to realise there is no god-given right for Arsenal to win any of these competitions. Complaining fans should at least be grateful that their club is in a far healthier position compared to the vast majority of others in the pyramid.

    There are, of course, many things Arsenal fans should feel ungrateful about, with ticket prices at the top of that list. It seems inherently wrong for the club to charge the highest prices in a league they can't win, but at the same time they operate on a supply and demand basis - if the stadium wasn't full every week, the board would have to reassess their pricing structure.

    One final point is that while it's painful to see the best players leave every year, this is something that almost every club, especially below Arsenal, has to deal with. Even Manchester United were powerless to prevent Cristiano Ronaldo's move to Real Madrid, while as a Blackburn fan I've watched the winners of the club's Player of the Year award depart in a steady stream, often to fail at other teams - such as Roque Santa Cruz and David Bentley - which only makes it worse.

    The clubs Arsenal players have left for highlight the Gunners' position under the glass ceiling, with Van Persie departing to have a genuine crack at the Premier League, Samir Nasri, Emmanuel Adebayor and Gael Clichy leaving for Manchester City's money (or success that is based entirely on money) and Thierry Henry and Cesc Fabregas heading to one of the biggest clubs in the world at a time when they had/have the best team.

    It seems absurd to chastise Wenger for allowing top players (who he developed) to depart, when Henry is lauded every time he returns to the Emirates. It's worth remembering that Wenger has also had offers to leave, having been courted by Real Madrid for many years, but has chosen to stick with the club.

    Times are hard, yes, but Arsenal also have a lot to be proud and positive about. So quit whining.
  • Blotto 3 Dec 2012 15:23:05 2,773 posts
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    My main gripe right now to be honest is the performances, so many of them are dull and the same issues come up every time. To be honest though, if we get top four again I'm not going to say Wenger out. Top four, another win over Spurs and a nice cup run (preferably Champions league but I'd be happy with FA Cup and content with league cup aslong as it was at least to the final) and I'd be fairly happy.

    My hope for this summer is greater than its been for awhile because we don't have one big player that we rely on that might leave. Sure we have some players who could be leaving, but overall its highly likely that for the first time in ages our signings won't be inferior replacements but additions.
  • THFourteen 3 Dec 2012 15:37:19 33,186 posts
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    @Kay The problem with people who keep writing that sort of article, and the fans who support them is that they are all similar sorts of people - safe, secure, unambitious, happy to look at those below them and say "well at least we aren't starving children in Africa".

    I was brought up differently, to be ambitious, strive for better things, look at the people above and say "why cant we be more like them". Why shouldnt we strive to be a better team? Because of what happened to Leeds? Why live in fear like that. Nobody is saying that we needed to go out and spend 5x30m on Rooney level players. But a little bit of speculate to accumulate would have been a good risk to take.

    Football is a cyclical game, we had the opportunity with spending a little more money at the right times to take ourselves forwards, 2008 being a prime example where we chose to stick rather than twist and it cost us the league. When we have been in a position where we had good players, for example Nasri and Fabregas, we chose not to strengthen, but to stick, and rely on them with no quality in reserve, rather than to spend the extra 10m and bring in (eg) Arteta and Reina when the squad really would have benefitted from it.

    Thats what annoys me the most, missed opportunity.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 3 Dec 2012 15:41:30 6,654 posts
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    Wow; I wouldn't take moyes over wenger. Big balls gambling ftw.
  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 15:55:30 86,962 posts
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    Reminds me of your average Spurs board. The constant argument is between the "we could have won the league" side and "we could have been the next Leeds" side.

    My general position is there's a lot more below is than there is above, and that's (slightly) more true for Arsenal. It's like twisting on 18 essentially.
  • jamievilla 3 Dec 2012 16:02:58 523 posts
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    Well with Mourinho going at the end of the season would you be surprised to see Wenger go to Real Madrid? Would Arsenal fans take Mourinho?(hypothetically)
  • kalel 3 Dec 2012 16:08:00 86,962 posts
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    It's a moot point I suspect. He'll go to City or PSG, or very possibly return to Chelsea.

    I don't think even United could get him, even with all the links. He's too expensive (in both his wages and the players he'd need to sign).
  • Dougs 3 Dec 2012 16:10:17 67,190 posts
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    Unless there is a catastrophe, such as relegation, there's not a cat in hells chance of AW leaving before his contract is up. He'll still fancy his chances to turn it around this season, and if he doesn't he'll have one year left to prove that the poor performance was a fluke. Think he'll move on after that though. The real worry is whether you trust the board to find the right replacement, given all the football men have moved on. Personally, I think AW will recommend his successor too.
  • nickthegun 3 Dec 2012 16:17:11 59,454 posts
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    There will be one thing, as per usual that papers the cracks. Youll tank city, win a cup or get to the semis of the CL.

    I would love to see mourinho go to arsenal, though.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • Kay 3 Dec 2012 16:19:31 17,820 posts
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    @THFourteen Implying that Wenger doesn't have ambition is doing him a massive disservice. I mean, this is the guy who said he'd try to win the league unbeaten, and then actually went on to do it two years later.

    If anything he's too ambitious, and it seems to me that he's always had this romantic notion of creating a winning team with very little, especially with the financial situation since we moved. That's why he always stuck with and had belief in the same players, that's why he never openly criticises anyone, and that's why he always hypes up the team and claims they can challenge for honours whenever they have a half-decent run. As the article said, we're a top four team at best, anything more should be a bonus.

    People talking about it being an end of an era on Saturday made me laugh. In reality the era really ended with the 8-2 last year - that's when Wenger realised that his "experiment" had truly failed, that's what made him make five deadline-day panic-buys, and that's why he spent close to 40m on proven internationals over the summer in order to keep up with the leading pack.
  • oceanmotion 3 Dec 2012 16:23:03 15,820 posts
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    Arsenal have been like this on and off for a few seasons. He always brings them back. I think he has to actually buy decent players to put an end to the problems. Cut down on buying a billion youngsters on a high wage and be more focused with spending on some mature players. There is good buys out there that don't cost an arm and a leg.
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