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  • Youthist 7 Oct 2013 11:24:15 10,021 posts
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    neems wrote:
    Damn it Kalel you're supposed to be a gibbering wreck this morning, none of this sensible and fair appraisal bullshit.
    Well this "they need time to gel" stuff I don't agree with necessarily.

    Losing 0-3 to a bargain basement Allardyce team should be a major concern IMO.

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • nickthegun 7 Oct 2013 11:26:34 60,148 posts
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    We might actually do well if we qualify for brazil. Troll logic dictates that we only play well against decent teams, so being unseeded thanks to being shitty bastards for the last few years means we are guaranteed to end up in the group of death.

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  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 11:29:42 87,930 posts
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    Youthist wrote:
    neems wrote:
    Damn it Kalel you're supposed to be a gibbering wreck this morning, none of this sensible and fair appraisal bullshit.
    Well this "they need time to gel" stuff I don't agree with necessarily.

    Losing 0-3 to a bargain basement Allardyce team should be a major concern IMO.
    A one-off bad result is never cause for "major concern". If it becomes a trend then yes, but at this point no.
  • robc84 7 Oct 2013 11:30:51 5,709 posts
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    I think the team certainly needs to gel. We have so many new key players, it was never going to work 100% straight away.

    That said, there is no excusing the result. Very poor. But I'm hoping it was just a bad day at the office and we will move on.

    Thing is we always seem to have 1 result we can pinpoint at the end of the season (when we inevitably miss out on 4th on goal difference). This could well be that result.
  • President_Weasel 7 Oct 2013 11:31:28 9,382 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    President_Weasel wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    The problem is the only thing rising out of the ashes of the golden generation is a generation of shite.
    The problem is the perception of them as any kind of "golden generation" in the first place. Golden generations win things.
    They had the talent to win things and should have at least seen us through to a final. They had several champions league trophies between them and were considered some of the best players in the world in their positions.

    Its just that they played like cunts whenever they put on an england shirt.
    They were "considered some of the best players in the world in their positions" by the English press who overhyped them, and some of them were carried to the Champions League by better foreign players in their teams - to be fair to the England players, most of them were good enough to be in teams competing in the Champions League without embarrassing themselves, but none of them were the spark that made a good team great.
    And to be fair to Ashley Cole he was one of the best left backs in the world for a long time despite being intensely dislikeable.
  • BeardedGamerUK 7 Oct 2013 11:36:18 1,466 posts
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    kalel wrote:


    West Ham got it exactly right. They nullified our attacks and took their chances well. It was textbook stuff. Fair play to them.

    A voice of reason and yes we did :) You'll probably end up playing in Europe next season anyway.
  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 11:44:40 87,930 posts
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    robc84 wrote:
    I think the team certainly needs to gel. We have so many new key players, it was never going to work 100% straight away.

    That said, there is no excusing the result. Very poor. But I'm hoping it was just a bad day at the office and we will move on.

    Thing is we always seem to have 1 result we can pinpoint at the end of the season (when we inevitably miss out on 4th on goal difference). This could well be that result.
    It's one we can put behind us, but I do think AVB should learn a few things i.e. Defoe is not the solution to our goalscoring issues, Dembele can't play more than one game a week, Sandro is a big game player, Lamela is probably ready for more football and Benny should be recalled from QPR ASAP.
  • robc84 7 Oct 2013 11:55:20 5,709 posts
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    I was surprised (and a little disappointed) to see defoe start. Part of me can understand why as he has scored a few goals, but mostly against very poor teams (villa aside of course ;) ).

    I like townsend but wonder whether someone like holtby may be a better option in some games, but I guess we wouldn't have any width then.

    I am surprised Sandro isn't starting more PL games. The man is a beast. Wonder whether he should be our 1st choice DM and either Demblele or Paulinho slot in alongside him.

    Re Benny, can we actually recall him?
  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 12:02:38 87,930 posts
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    Benny can come back whenever we want I think. That's the advantage of loaning to a club outside the PL.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 7 Oct 2013 12:08:16 25,942 posts
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    The complete lack of incisiveness/creativity is the concerning thing so far this season. Eriksen looks good, but he's the only one who seems to have an eye for opportunities.

    The only chances we do get seem to fall to our more defensive midfielders and the strikers are getting nothing.

    Early days though, but needs to change. Walker is doing my head in too.

    Edited by StarchildHypocrethes at 13:07:24 07-10-2013
  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 12:15:49 87,930 posts
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    Lamela has been brought in at great expense with the intent of him ultimately being our main creative player, but it's obvious he's just not quite there yet, and I think it's right to ease him in.

    Eriksen wasn't quite in the game yesterday. He's definitely going to struggle at first against more physical sides. That will come though too.

    We really just need some patience, which is why it's annoying that AVB dropped Soldado for that game. He needs the games, and I'm certain would have scored a couple of those that Defoe fluffed yesterday.
  • Youthist 7 Oct 2013 12:34:33 10,021 posts
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    They were "considered some of the best players in the world in their positions" by the English press who overhyped them, and some of them were carried to the Champions League by better foreign players in their team.
    I don't know, I think in terms of "very good quality" the likes of
    1 GK David James
    2 DF Gary Neville
    3 DF Ashley Cole
    4 MF Steven Gerrard
    6 DF Sol Campbell
    7 MF David Beckham
    8 MF Paul Scholes
    9 FW Wayne Rooney
    10 FW Michael Owen
    11 MF Frank Lampard

    From a starting national 11 is strong for a national side. To get a lot of players coming through at the same time that are (meant to be) quality is quite rare and they normally dominate for a period because other national sides have weaknesses alongside better players during those times. Over the last 10 - 15 years we have seen France, then Spain, and maybe Belgium now have similar periods. But England definitely had a time when it had strength throughout large parts of a national starting 11. Compare it to now, for example, where half of them are sub-par bench warmers.

    Edited by Youthist at 13:00:50 07-10-2013

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • nickthegun 7 Oct 2013 12:49:47 60,148 posts
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    I think, tbh, there is a tendency to... underhype is probably the wrong word, but just as these players were sometimes unjustly built up by the press, there is an equally bad tendency to just write them off as shit, with added bonus points for being carried by the foreign players in their teams when they won domestic honours.

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  • Syrette 7 Oct 2013 13:26:05 43,598 posts
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    Man Utd fans have really taken to Fellaini:



  • The-Bodybuilder 7 Oct 2013 14:55:38 14,225 posts
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    What is Englands philosophy and playing style?

    When people talk about the "golden generation" and roll out a list of individual names, its easy to forget the best teams, and any successful playing team, have a certain style and philosophy to their play. IMO, it's this part of football that is heavily underrated by the English media and supporters.

    What was the "Golden Generation's" style of play beyond a list of names that warranted for them to be considered so great? Apart from playing arguably their most gifted centre midfielder out on the left?
  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 14:59:23 87,930 posts
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    I dunno. In terms of international football I think it's generally more about being lucky enough to have a number of great players at one time, or even just one ultra good player.

    It's only very recently that Spain won things more because of a style. In fact in the past teams that were characterised by a style of philosophy (70s Samba Brazil or Total Football Holland) didn't win anything.
  • Youthist 7 Oct 2013 15:01:29 10,021 posts
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    What the FA should have done is get hold of a really top European coach with a proven track record and dodgy morals, then throw millions of pounds at him to get him to work out our best system with those players. That would have sorted it out for sure.

    Edited by Youthist at 15:03:22 07-10-2013

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • The-Bodybuilder 7 Oct 2013 15:08:23 14,225 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I dunno. In terms of international football I think it's generally more about being lucky enough to have a number of great players at one time, or even just one ultra good player.

    It's only very recently that Spain won things more because of a style. In fact in the past teams that were characterised by a style of philosophy (70s Samba Brazil or Total Football Holland) didn't win anything.
    70s Brazil didn't win anything? Man I always presumed they did. But even the other Brazil teams had a style of play, though as you said heavily reliant on individual flair.
    We also had Italy (boring defensiveness) that one them something, heck even Greece and their defensive style got them the Euros (still lucky as heck). Germany has always been known for their counter attacking too.

    I guess my point is that they always seemed to play as a kind of cohesive team with a clear type of play.
  • Dougs 7 Oct 2013 15:09:36 68,059 posts
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    Well, aside from the 1970 side. (which was awesome)
  • oceanmotion 7 Oct 2013 15:10:42 15,972 posts
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    France were rock solid with some class to get them through.

    I would say to be effective now, you need to retain possession, fast and clever defenders, close down as a team, midfield domination, creative, fast and powerful going forward.

    Slowly working your way to the opposing box then playing sideways or down the wings in hope of getting a cross in doesn't really work too well against good teams. Too easy to defend and counter against. Slow and predictable won't get you far even with a great player or two. Just leads to frustration.
  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 15:12:19 87,930 posts
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    They did win it in 1970, but the better known lethargic styled classic 70s Brazil side didn't win anything.

    I'd also say England do have a certain "style" of play, although it's certainly as not defined as Catenaccio or whatever agreed. Fast and physical is our thing though.

    I think most often you just need a half decent team and a bit of luck to win a tournament. Again, Spain are really the only team I've known in my lifetime to win stuff by simply being by far the best team in the tournament.
  • FWB 7 Oct 2013 15:58:47 44,668 posts
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    Bit gutted we lost because of some seriously dodgy decisions, but City were better so can't complain. And I liked our record against them. :(
  • faux-C 7 Oct 2013 18:18:29 9,398 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I dunno. In terms of international football I think it's generally more about being lucky enough to have a number of great players at one time, or even just one ultra good player.

    It's only very recently that Spain won things more because of a style. In fact in the past teams that were characterised by a style of philosophy (70s Samba Brazil or Total Football Holland) didn't win anything.
    Total Football Holland will live a lot longer in the memory than the all conquering Spain team IMHO.
  • RedSparrows 7 Oct 2013 18:31:38 22,902 posts
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    I don't agree. Cruyff et al - yeah. But Spain have won their three main tournies in a row.
  • kalel 7 Oct 2013 18:39:15 87,930 posts
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    I agree. Plus that Spanish style is now changing the way literally everyone plays the game (much as Spain did back in the 40s and 50s).

    I think there's every chance centre forwards won't exist in a few years' time, and that's thanks to Spain (and in truth thanks to Barca who Spain copied).
  • Deleted user 7 October 2013 18:41:51
    kalel wrote:
    They did win it in 1970, but the better known lethargic styled classic 70s Brazil side didn't win anything.

    I'd also say England do have a certain "style" of play, although it's certainly as not defined as Catenaccio or whatever agreed. Fast and physical is our thing though.

    I think most often you just need a half decent team and a bit of luck to win a tournament. Again, Spain are really the only team I've known in my lifetime to win stuff by simply being by far the best team in the tournament.
    I agree that this is generally England's style of play, although the last few years we seem to have often gone for the strong and slow approach. The players don't suit it but we've chosen managers that like it.
  • grey_matters 7 Oct 2013 19:06:32 3,774 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    They did win it in 1970, but the better known lethargic styled classic 70s Brazil side didn't win anything.

    I'd also say England do have a certain "style" of play, although it's certainly as not defined as Catenaccio or whatever agreed. Fast and physical is our thing though.

    I think most often you just need a half decent team and a bit of luck to win a tournament. Again, Spain are really the only team I've known in my lifetime to win stuff by simply being by far the best team in the tournament.
    I agree that this is generally England's style of play, although the last few years we seem to have often gone for the strong and slow approach. The players don't suit it but we've chosen managers that like it.
    I don't think that Fast and Physical has been England's style of play for years now. There was an emphasis put on technique a while back (and rightly so) and anything with connotations of Hoofball was scorned. So the pace is long gone from England's game at the gain of very little. Keep and increase the focus on technique but re-introduce some blood and thunder like the Germans have over the last few years and you'll get something that's a lot more watchable and occasionally, I reckon, pretty successful.
  • faux-C 7 Oct 2013 19:08:36 9,398 posts
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    England won't progress until they stop playing Hodgeball.
  • MrFlay 7 Oct 2013 19:14:37 746 posts
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    England can quite easily play decent football with the right players and a decent, progressive coach. You have already got some great players and a lot of very exciting young talent. I really do think the long term progress is hurt when players are played in the senior team while still eligible for the under-21s or under-19s. Spain and Germany almost never do this. I think a group of players who played together from u-19 level up to senior level would be a far better team than what you currently have.

    Similarly Ireland have some decent players, not as many as England admittedly, and we were playing some absolutely terrible football under a dinosaur of a coach.
  • Trowel 7 Oct 2013 19:48:05 17,797 posts
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    Cashley out of Friday's game \o/

    http://www.thefa.com/england/News/2013/england-meet-at-sgp-071013

    Wonder if they'll pass to Baines. Or even let him take a free kick.
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