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  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 10:57:41 16,248 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    There are quite a few english players playing abroad. Admittedly, a lot of them are journeymen after a final pay day, but there is a reasonable amount of talent playing all over europe.
    I meant who went abroad to develop and gain experience at a young age, not to cash in at the twilight of their careers.

    There was a recent player from a top club who rejected s loan bid to Ajax for QPR.
    I'm aware one wants to stay close to their family, but from a career development point, playing for Ajax week in week out is far far more beneficial for any young player.
  • Latin 5 Sep 2013 11:00:28 4,075 posts
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    @mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

    Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:01:44 16,248 posts
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    And even if you take journeymen into consideration, "a reasonable amount" pales in comparison to the German, French, Spanish and other young players littered all over European academies.

    Its actually a very unreasonable amount, when one considers the idea of developing young players.

    And its not like young English players don't get offers, because they do. But its pretty much accepted that English players, especially the young ones, don't want to go abroad.
    Which questions just how much they really want it.
  • Deleted user 5 September 2013 11:03:00
    Latin wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

    Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.
    Give him time. He's only had 3 games. The Chelsea game was bore draw due to Chelsea's tactics more than ours.
  • Mr_Sleep 5 Sep 2013 11:05:28 20,463 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Once you experience perfection see how you feel about losing it.

    Probablywinningitthisonetoolol
    I don't see why you wont win it, it's practically the same team and you have the best striker in the country. Every team is struggling to play amazingly yet, I'm sure it will click.
  • Mr_Sleep 5 Sep 2013 11:08:44 20,463 posts
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    It's amazing when McMonkey seems like the more moderate United fan :-P
  • nickthegun 5 Sep 2013 11:11:02 68,483 posts
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    You have to mitigate that with the fact that we have good academies all the way through the leagues. We have an infrastructure like nowhere in the world so we naturally take in far more players than other countries.

    Its not that our players should be going to the likes of holland, its that they are far more likely to be picked up by an academy over here, so why should they go abroad?

    Take the kid at QRR, as an example. The championship is probably a more competative league than the dutch top tier and he is far more likely to get noticed by a bigger club playing in london than he is in amsterdam. Its not purely 'he doesnt want it enough'. There are a million reasons why he elected to stay in england.

    Edited by nickthegun at 11:13:08 05-09-2013
  • graysonavich 5 Sep 2013 11:17:25 8,272 posts
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    Because a 10 minute appearance off the bench at FC Twente away would change the course of English international football for countless generations.
  • Latin 5 Sep 2013 11:20:02 4,075 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Latin wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

    Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.
    Give him time. He's only had 3 games. The Chelsea game was bore draw due to Chelsea's tactics more than ours.
    I'm all for patience, but this transfer window, his press conferences, his post match interviews and most importantly his team selections and substitutions have not filled me with any hope. He looks like Hodgson at Liverpool. Good managers but wrong clubs.
  • Mr_Sleep 5 Sep 2013 11:20:20 20,463 posts
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    I'm sure the English game would be helped a great deal by not having such a hateful media attacking the coaches at every opportunity. Oh and a manager who actually tries to build for the future as opposed to just saying it.
  • Deleted user 5 September 2013 11:25:37
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Once you experience perfection see how you feel about losing it.

    Probablywinningitthisonetoolol
    I don't see why you wont win it, it's practically the same team and you have the best striker in the country. Every team is struggling to play amazingly yet, I'm sure it will click.
    Yes but we have THAT midfield, which has finally been improved but I fear not enough considering everyone else has improved as well.

    We have the potential to win but maybe not the right team at the moment. Then again if Moyes has bought Fellani so that Kagawa has protection behind we could be jizztastic.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:26:04 16,248 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    You have to mitigate that with the fact that we have good academies all the way through the leagues. We have an infrastructure like nowhere in the world so we naturally take in far more players than other countries.

    Its not that our players should be going to the likes of holland, its that they are far more likely to be picked up by an academy over here, so why should they go abroad?

    Take the kid at QRR, as an example. The championship is probably a more competative league than the dutch top tier and he is far more likely to get noticed by a bigger club playing in london than he is in amsterdam. Its not purely 'he doesnt want it enough'. There are a million reasons why he elected to stay in england.
    Completely disagree on virtually all counts.
    For one, we don't have good academies all the way through, we have a very poor academy system beyond s handful of clubs (West Ham, Arsenal, Watford, Villa, Everton, Crewe, Southampton, Spurs are just some of the few.....and I'm dubious of even putting arsenal in there, beyond what arsenal fans think).
    Its the entire reason why the FA and the PL forced the (somewhat rubbish) EPPP system upon UK Football. Grassroots football in this country is not good.

    I really don't get where on what basis you feel we have infrastructure "like nowhere else in the world".

    And do you honestly believe he'll get noticed by a "bigger club" (do you mean "British club"?) at QPR at one of the most renowned and arguably the best academies in the world? The level of education he'll get at Ajax utterly DESTORYS anything he'll learn at QPR if he wants to become a genuine top class player, rather than just get signed by Sunderland. And this was a loan for the first team, so he would even get the chance to play in Europe.
    In fact just this week stats showed he Dutch league made more money tan any other league in selling players to top and decent clubs.

    There can be a million reasons for why he didn't want to go but as someone who worked in the academy level, the number one reason was home sickness.
  • Deleted user 5 September 2013 11:27:01
    Latin wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Latin wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

    Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.
    Give him time. He's only had 3 games. The Chelsea game was bore draw due to Chelsea's tactics more than ours.
    I'm all for patience, but this transfer window, his press conferences, his post match interviews and most importantly his team selections and substitutions have not filled me with any hope. He looks like Hodgson at Liverpool. Good managers but wrong clubs.
    Come on. Apart from the retarded transfer window (mainly not his fault) he's made pretty much the same choices that Fergie would've.
  • nickthegun 5 Sep 2013 11:30:04 68,483 posts
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    I cant really be bothered getting in to a point-for-point, mega-quote nit-pick-a-thon with you but, suffice to say, I think you are talking out of your arse.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:30:42 16,248 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    Because a 10 minute appearance off the bench at FC Twente away would change the course of English international football for countless generations.
    As supposed to a 10 minute appearance off the bench of QPR will do the trick.
    Unless you actually have some insight to add, I'm not interested in participating in one of your borish passive-aggressive argumentative traps please.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:33:15 16,248 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I cant really be bothered getting in to a point-for-point, mega-quote nit-pick-a-thon with you but, suffice to say, I think you are talking out of your arse.
    Did you learn that from our unrivalled infrastructure?

    I'm making my comments based on first hand and even recent comments from those at academies. What are you basing it on?
  • SolidSCB 5 Sep 2013 11:34:44 9,663 posts
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    I don't know about other United fans, but I'm inclined to give a bit of time to the new bloke in charge. Especially considering he was hand-picked by a man who spent the previous 26 years bringing us to where we are now. I'm sure he sort of knew what we were looking for in terms of a replacement.
  • nickthegun 5 Sep 2013 11:34:49 68,483 posts
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    I refer you to my previous comments.
  • graysonavich 5 Sep 2013 11:37:29 8,272 posts
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    England were equally as shit when it was fashionable to go out to Spain or Italy for a couple of years.

    Youtz want to stay in England because, and whisper it quietly, the England set up from bottom to top is generally far better than anything they will find in a sunnier climate.
  • Latin 5 Sep 2013 11:39:00 4,075 posts
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    @mcmonkeyplc Fergie would have sold Rooney for one!

    I don't think he would have been so negative against Chelsea especially as Chelsea were so bad, he might have started with a similar set up but when it was clear they were offering nothing, I think he would have gone for it.

    The Liverpool game was just small time mentality from Moyes, RVP was totally isolated and leaving Kagawa out of the squad entirely was a joke.
  • Deleted user 5 September 2013 11:40:39
    SolidSCB wrote:
    I don't know about other United fans, but I'm inclined to give a bit of time to the new bloke in charge. Especially considering he was hand-picked by a man who spent the previous 26 years bringing us to where we are now. I'm sure he sort of knew what we were looking for in terms of a replacement.
    I agree. We've played shit for the past 3 seasons and won 2 leagues!
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:40:40 16,248 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I refer you to my previous comments.
    Answer = Nothing.

    I'm aware.
  • nickthegun 5 Sep 2013 11:42:14 68,483 posts
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    I actually have my FIFA A badge and coach at a well known championship club
  • SuperCoolEskimo 5 Sep 2013 11:43:03 11,108 posts
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    Apparently Moyes turned down a move for Thiago because he hadn't seen enough of him to know if he was good enough.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:43:03 16,248 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    England were equally as shit when it was fashionable to go out to Spain or Italy for a couple of years.

    Youtz want to stay in England because, and whisper it quietly, the England set up from bottom to top is generally far better than anything they will find in a sunnier climate.
    When was it ever fashionable for young players to go out to Spain or Italy?
    And the England set up is better than what they would find in Spain, Netherlands and Germany? Ok then.

    2022 World Cup here we come.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:45:32 16,248 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I actually have my FIFA A badge and coach at a well known championship club
    I've mentioned what club I worked at (West Ham up until a season ago), so I'm sure you wouldn't mind mentioning what championship club you're at.
  • Mr_Sleep 5 Sep 2013 11:47:21 20,463 posts
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    Latin wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc Fergie would have sold Rooney for one!
    What, like when he sulked, agitated for a move and then had a massive, unreasonable pay rise under Fergie.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Sep 2013 11:47:22 16,248 posts
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    And as far as I'm aware, FIFA don't make badges.
  • Deleted user 5 September 2013 11:48:40
    Latin wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc Fergie would have sold Rooney for one!

    I don't think he would have been so negative against Chelsea especially as Chelsea were so bad, he might have started with a similar set up but when it was clear they were offering nothing, I think he would have gone for it.

    The Liverpool game was just small time mentality from Moyes, RVP was totally isolated and leaving Kagawa out of the squad entirely was a joke.
    Fergies last act was basically telling Rooney to shut up and stay put.

    What was negative about our approach to the Chelsea game?

    The liverpool game was wank but I think losing Rooney so close to it effected us. I have no idea why Kags was left out, that is a massive mistake if he's fit, but according to his own press conference Moyes doesn't think he's match fit yet.

    That is one that will increasingly piss me off, leaving Kagawa out.
  • nickthegun 5 Sep 2013 11:50:35 68,483 posts
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    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    I actually have my FIFA A badge and coach at a well known championship club
    I've mentioned what club I worked at (West Ham up until a season ago), so I'm sure you wouldn't mind mentioning what championship club you're at.
    And what did you do there The-Bodybuilder? Were you involved in coaching at all levels? Were you on an FA committee for Football education, privy to the state of academies at all levels of the game?

    Or did you hear a few blokes talking about the state of football while you were hanging around the car park?
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