DmC (Devil May Cry 5) Page 16

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  • JinTypeNoir 21 Jan 2013 23:35:59 4,392 posts
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    @DaveMayCry

    I thought it would have been obvious by the cancer frog reference in my epic post. The boss battle where Lilith willingly lets herself get swallowed inside a baby-faced cancer frog and you have to fight it in Crazy Musical Visualizer Arena, yay! Blech. That boss battle is so uninspired, both the enemy design, its moves and the way you fight it.


    SomaticSense wrote: Capcom had to do something drastic with the franchise or it was at huge risk of dying.

    And what we've ended up with is a more story-focused DMC game, with less back-tracking, gorgeous and imaginative environment design, a couple of ingenious and genuinely exciting set-pieces, and a fluid combat system bettered by no other non-Kamiya birthed game in this genre (and which is far closer to the roots of the franchise than anyone was expecting).

    For starters, how the hell does a game like that deserve such idiotic criticism? And secondly, the franchise could well have died such was the spanking by the Umbra Witch, but instead we have a potential GotY based on quality alone and one of the best of the genre, ever.
    For starters, how do you know that the franchise was at a huge risk of dying? We know Capcom wanted bigger numbers for it, but do we really know that it wouldn't just go on a long hiatus between sequels because of lack of developer resources, had this not happened? No, its just conjecture.

    For enders, the game isn't really all that much more focused on story than then other games, and the story is hands down the most retarded in a series known for its bad story lines. How on earth people can watch the sequences and not cringe at how awful the attempted edginess and darkness is, and the obvious and heavy-handed characterization and the completely repugnant and tacky atmosphere is beyond me. Shooting babies in wombs, enemies that a 6th grade boy would draw clumsily in a notebook and declare bad-ass, they tried to drug me and I'm so messed up boo hoo expository scenes -- oooh, look he's having sex with strippers who wore angel wings! On what planet is this a good thing, and not tacky, clumsily executed and in really bad taste? I hate stuff like this. At least the earlier games had a funny protagonist and much better supporting characters who provided fun interaction and the games weren't trying so hard to be edgy.

    But I reasoned that I could skip or ignore the cutscenes if the gameplay was good enough, but its just not all that remarkable and screwy in several essential ways. Though this game throws a lot of combat systems at you, it doesn't evolve much in depth at all. You may enjoy it, but I argue that you are enjoying a cheap wine from a thrift store -- there's nothing wrong with that, but its certainly not as good as you could be drinking.

    Also, screw people who act like backtracking is an evil to be avoided whenever possible. When you design it well enough, so it isn't just walking with no action or new discoveries, it adds a lot to level design without taking away anything. But no, I guess everything must be streamlined for maximum badass at every second these days.

    I'll give you that some of the environmental design is creative and visually interesting. Shame they didn't make actually affect the fights in meaningful ways most of the time, like the past games did.

    khaz wrote:
    Ninja gaiden black, ninja gaiden 2, dmc3, dmc4, god hand, vanquish, demons souls, dark souls are all games with superior combat systems and crucially, considerably more challenging games. It's nowhere near to being one of the best of the genre ever. It is however surprisingly good and for once actually feels like a proper game considering its ninja theory. The colour coded enemies are grating though, not sure why they're in the game at all. It's like they want to punish the player for no reason whatsoever. Argh!
    I notice Bayonetta is missing from your list. Why?

    I think the color-coding was a good idea in theory, just not ninja theory. With this series you always have the risk of getting too esoteric and losing the audience and color-coding was at least a good concept to easily clue in newcomers to how you get better at these games. I feel like a better Western developer or the Japanese teams would have done a better job at integrating it into the game.

    The bigger problem is that the attacks have problems in animation and sound effects, mostly in area of the impact communicated to the player and how the game gets across hit detection and strength, not giving you as good of a cue as previous games, and this leads to a game where all the oomph comes from the environment, while the enemies and Dante are just kind of "eh." Its got some of the theory down right, just the execution leaves a lot to be desired.
  • Syrette 21 Jan 2013 23:37:17 43,525 posts
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    Not read any of your posts (just too long if I'm honest) but is this some anti-Western thing?

  • JinTypeNoir 21 Jan 2013 23:43:27 4,392 posts
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    DFawkes wrote:
    I know roughly 0.0001% of people care about such things, but is the story a part of the same series as the first 4? I think it's was set before the first 4 (and before 3, the first in the series chronology), but given it's a reboot I'm not sure if it takes place in the same universe.

    As far as I can tell, it looks like it's the same sort of reboot as the Incredible Hulk film - not really covering the same time period as Hulk so it doesn't go against the existing story as such, but it isn't really a sequel. Any thoughts? Or more specifically, does anyone but me care about the story?
    Other than just watching the cutscenes and smirking, I never really followed the specifics of the story enough to say whether this could be wedged into the same universe, but no. I don't think so. The details of several key characters are so completely different and the idea of the setting strikes me as in a completely different ball field from the rest of the series. It's not even Mega Man X to original Mega Man.

    Granted, I haven't won the game yet, but Vergil's character alone seems completely unrelated to the Vergil we all know and love. Its character assassination at its most tacky.
  • JinTypeNoir 21 Jan 2013 23:50:08 4,392 posts
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    Syrette wrote:
    Not read any of your posts (just too long if I'm honest) but is this some anti-Western thing?
    Here's one sentence from that post:

    "I feel like a better Western developer or the Japanese teams would have done a better job at integrating it into the game."

    What do you think? Of course not.

    There has been a problem with Japanese developers hiring out Western developers to make mediocre games this generation, but that was also a problem last generation on a lesser scale and as we all know Japanese developers are perfectly capable of making mediocre or horrible games on their own. In particular, I think the people who made Painkiller would have done better job with this, if it were possible. That's about the extent of what I think of that.
  • King_Edward 21 Jan 2013 23:52:44 11,454 posts
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    The first 4 games didn't really have a coherent canon anyway. In the first game Dante barely recalled having a brother, so any real relationship between Dante and Vergil is already on thin ice in that sense.
  • Dave_McCoy 22 Jan 2013 00:02:57 2,776 posts
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    JinTypeNoir wrote:
    @DaveMayCry

    I thought it would have been obvious by the cancer frog reference in my epic post. The boss battle where Lilith willingly lets herself get swallowed inside a baby-faced cancer frog and you have to fight it in Crazy Musical Visualizer Arena, yay!.
    Now...are you sure you've played it. I don't remember that bit.
  • JinTypeNoir 22 Jan 2013 00:08:20 4,392 posts
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    You're accusing me of not playing the game and you don't remember one of the only boss battles in it?

    This is rich.
  • JinTypeNoir 22 Jan 2013 00:13:52 4,392 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    The first 4 games didn't really have a coherent canon anyway. In the first game Dante barely recalled having a brother, so any real relationship between Dante and Vergil is already on thin ice in that sense.
    One of the things that confused me most before Devil May Cry 4 came out, was that wasn't Vergil's appearance in the original called Nero Angelo? So when everyone was calling Nero a new character in previews, I was like, "Wut?"
  • khaz 22 Jan 2013 00:16:20 2,787 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    @khaz

    Totally different enemy arrangements on harder difficulties. They still telegraph their attacks quite early.

    Also, Ninja Gaiden 2? Really? Urrrgh.
    Terrible camera but the combat was exquisite.

    @JinTypeNoir because somatic's post already mentioned Kamiya which automatically means dmc1 and bayonetta.

    Edited by khaz at 00:16:51 22-01-2013
  • Dave_McCoy 22 Jan 2013 00:25:04 2,776 posts
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    @JinTypeNoir
    Hah, I think you forgot the specifics of it. Lillith doesn't 'willingly let herself get swallowed by a baby-faced cancer frog', that's Mundus' spawn and is part of her. It's the demon's child and she's using it to protect her. Not really a cancer frog, not even sure where the cancer reference is from...but still.

    Come on, your hate of it is a little embarrassing. Just let it go, you don't like it, and that's fine. You're not convincing anyone who does enjoy it. No need to pointlessly pick holes in it. Oooh, the review said the animation is fluid..how does that help the game?..because the animation is fluid, no further explanation needed. Better than the moves looking a jarring mess.
  • JinTypeNoir 22 Jan 2013 01:22:51 4,392 posts
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    Dave_McCoy wrote:
    Hah, I think you forgot the specifics of it. Lillith doesn't 'willingly let herself get swallowed by a baby-faced cancer frog', that's Mundus' spawn and is part of her. It's the demon's child and she's using it to protect her. Not really a cancer frog, not even sure where the cancer reference is from...but still.
    Because it looks like a tumescent frog. I know what it supposedly is in the story, it is just ridiculous and dumb, so I described it the way it comes across. I just played that part last night. (It's Tuesday morning in Japan right now. The game came out on Thursday, I bought it on Saturday.) This game's story reminds me of something like The Anatomy of Hell.

    Come on, your hate of it is a little embarrassing.
    I think there is a grand total of one post in this thread by me before this game got released. Everything else is what I've thought after I started playing it. It's entirely possible to criticize this game and not like it without being a raging, drooling fanboy. In fact, I think some people who are reacting at that segment may be doing so because they themselves have done something similar in the past and are having an "Oh shit" moment of realizing their stupidity and covering it up by making these generalizations about the fan base. I can't be sure, but it comes off that way to me.

    If you're willing to humor me for long enough, let me tell you a story about fan expectations. In my time on this forum, I have defended Fallout 3 and Bethesda, the Prime series (though I don't even like Metroid), various Final Fantasy sequels, Telltale's Monkey Island games and Wind Waker, all games that got shitstorm reactions from fans about changes to their franchises. If you were to follow my posts on my forum throughout the years, you'd see time and again, how I moaned about how people need to keep a more open mind about sequels if you want new things and innovation, especially with the reality of how expensive games are to make. I argued that who owns the creative soul of a series is too murky of an issue to claim, "This is not [insert franchise here]." and that language like "So-and-so developer have betrayed their fans." is ludicrous. I used to recommend Maximo to people who liked Ghouls & Ghosts because I thought it was actually better than the old school classics that inspired it and that was another series Capcom farmed out to a western developer.

    I can point you to two times in the last ten years that I thought a sequel was a disgrace to the franchise name. One time was with the Leisure Suit Larry games like Magna Cum Laude, which were hideous and mean-spirited, awful and tacky non-games from hell compared to the clever point and click adventures of the past. I'm not alone; nobody likes these games. I think this is the first time I've ever written anything about how disappointing that was at an attempt at restarting a franchise.

    The second time was with Final Fantasy X-2. I decided not to play it because I loved the ending of the first game and even playing with the idea of resurrecting a dead character went so far against my principles of good storytelling (among other things to be gleaned from the previews) that I just reasoned it wasn't for me and didn't touch it. I've never said anything bad about the actual game, just the concept which was repulsive to me, and have avoided discussion about it because I obviously wouldn't be able to say anything worthwhile.

    Devil May Cry was the first game I ever played on the PlayStation 2. It is the game that most convinced me to get one. It is a special game in my memory. 2, eh I sold. 3 still stands as one of my favorite action games ever. 4 I really liked. If there is another one in the vein of those games I will not cry emo tears into my pillow at night. Unfortunate, but oh well. Just like I'm sure if we're patient enough there will new Mega Man games in the future and getting on Capcom's case about their treatment of Mega Man would be fruitless.

    What is infinitely more infuriating though, is being this kind of person and told that to talk about what it does wrong and the ramifications of that would put me in the same category of people who go on and on because Dante's hair isn't white. This game represents a lot more than simply the experience you get my putting the disc in. A lot of people have a lot of different opinions about many of the issues of cinematic gaming, imagined or real fall of in Japanese console game development, out of control budgets squeezing out more humbly made games, developers chasing those Call of Duty dollars, the way the media carries itself, maturity in handling adult content in games, and the infantile need to prove that games can tell stories as well as other mediums by making them dark and edgy. There is a lot to talk about. The controversy has less to do with Dante being so iconic than it does with it being a perfect storm of controversies that swirl around gaming right now.

    Better than the moves looking a jarring mess.
    Funny that, because certainly not all of them, but quite a few are a jarring mess.

    Edited by JinTypeNoir at 01:23:49 22-01-2013
  • Dave_McCoy 22 Jan 2013 02:24:29 2,776 posts
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    @JinTypeNoir

    Look, I was probably being facetious for the most part. I keep an open mind when it comes to most games, much like you. I never had a problem with Metroid Prime, Wind Waker, New Monkey Island etc. Obviously Devil May Cry is closer to your heart then mine and I was playing Devil's Advocate. It's a shame you don't like it but I've really enjoyed it. I like DMC 1 and 4 and feel this isn't so far off but clearly you do....I can't agree on the animation thing though :)

    Oh, and I see what you did with DaveMayCry...very clever.
  • King_Edward 22 Jan 2013 08:20:24 11,454 posts
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    JinTypeNoir wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:
    The first 4 games didn't really have a coherent canon anyway. In the first game Dante barely recalled having a brother, so any real relationship between Dante and Vergil is already on thin ice in that sense.
    One of the things that confused me most before Devil May Cry 4 came out, was that wasn't Vergil's appearance in the original called Nero Angelo? So when everyone was calling Nero a new character in previews, I was like, "Wut?"
    Nelo Angelo. It was supposed to be Nero Angelo (Black Angel) but was mis-translated.
  • SomaticSense 22 Jan 2013 19:23:56 8,353 posts
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    @khaz

    I wouldn't exactly say the Souls games are quite of the same genre, and Vanquish certainly isn't (nor does it even have a melee combat system besides 'mash melee'). But to my mind only the DMC, Bayonetta, and NG franchises have arguably a more accomplished combat system for the genre.

    And DmCs is at least up there with them. Bemoan the direction of the franchise as much as you want, or the misguided placement of weapon-specific enemies, or the shortage of bosses, but it's surely hard to refute that it has an excellent combat engine.

    Edited by SomaticSense at 19:26:56 22-01-2013
  • SomaticSense 22 Jan 2013 19:38:03 8,353 posts
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    Feanor wrote:
    SomaticSense wrote:People seem to have forgotten that just a few years ago the last 'true' sequel got it's arse royally pounded by Bayonetta. A game which it was what DMC creator Kamiya saw was the next step for the genre. Capcom had to do something drastic with the franchise or it was at huge risk of dying.
    What we've got is a game that averages two whole points higher on MetaCritic, but sold a third as many copes in the first week in the UK as DMC 4 did.

    DMC is at greater risk of dying now than it was back in 2008.
    Yes it's speculation. But it was speculation that was rampant pretty much everywhere around the time of Bayonetta's release. In fact the change in direction itself can be seen as proof that Capcom believed this too.

    Sales figures aside, DMC4, when viewed alongside it's competitors of the time, was sign of potential stagnation for the series. Capcom didn't need to go as far as rebooting it, but heyho. At least we have a decent story to go along with all the largely positive changes that would've happened regardless.

    Edited by SomaticSense at 19:38:33 22-01-2013
  • JinTypeNoir 23 Jan 2013 16:28:30 4,392 posts
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    The new Devil May Cry sold 110,429 copies last week on the PS3 according to Media Create. The Xbox 360 did not chart in the top 20, so its currently unknown how well it did. However, Famitsu has both, the PS3 version selling 115,243 copies and the Xbox 360 version 5,827 copies. Again, according to Famitsu data, combined that's slightly less than half what Devil May Cry 4 did it first week, where it sold 212,373 and 40,169 copies, PS3 and 360 respectively. Eventually, it sold 440,000 copies.

    Devil May Cry 620,000
    Devil May Cry 2 450,000
    Devil May Cry 3 430,000
    Devil May Cry HD Collection 80,000

    All of that is Famitsu data.

    As you can see, in Japan, though it never reached quite as high as the first game again, the series sold very consistently. Devil May Cry 3 and 4 have sold steadily, increasing their sales every year for six and four years, respectively. The original sold steadily for 3 years. Devil May Cry 2 is the abnormality for obvious reasons, as it only charted for the year it was released in.

    Edited by JinTypeNoir at 16:33:16 23-01-2013
  • Deckard1 23 Jan 2013 16:31:00 28,085 posts
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    Thanks Jin!! Keep up the good work!
  • StarchildHypocrethes 23 Jan 2013 17:19:10 25,916 posts
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    Research suggests this is currently the worst thread on the Internet.
  • Gearskin 24 Jan 2013 21:36:37 2,045 posts
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    Who is this Jin guy and why does skimming his posts cause me PHYSICAL PAIN!?

    Im playing through SoS now, just starting Under Watch.

    Ya know what... This is the most "fun" I've ever had with this IP and I've had a lot of fun with all the games. Even DMC2, if you can believe it.

    Story, characters, art style, music. General tone and attitude. All brought together by an endlessly smooth combat system that is extremely accessible and satisfying to experiment with.

    Love it. GOTY runner.
  • King_Edward 24 Jan 2013 21:48:31 11,454 posts
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    PC version tomorrow. Hope DF get a comparison out quick.

    Any benefits to the PC versions of DMC3 & 4? They're in a deal with this on Steam.

    Edited by King_Edward at 21:53:18 24-01-2013
  • khaz 25 Jan 2013 06:57:37 2,787 posts
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    SomaticSense wrote:
    @khaz

    I wouldn't exactly say the Souls games are quite of the same genre, and Vanquish certainly isn't (nor does it even have a melee combat system besides 'mash melee'). But to my mind only the DMC, Bayonetta, and NG franchises have arguably a more accomplished combat system for the genre.

    And DmCs is at least up there with them. Bemoan the direction of the franchise as much as you want, or the misguided placement of weapon-specific enemies, or the shortage of bosses, but it's surely hard to refute that it has an excellent combat engine.
    Souls and vanquish are absolutely the same genre. Intricate combat systems with varying levels of depth and width to deal with many enemy arrangements and their own combat systems. And they are more accomplished than dmc.

    None of this reflects on dmc's combat system poorly as it does flow smoothly and I can see why ninja theory took certain aspects of it and made it a little more accessible. This isn't a genre that normally attracts a mass crowd so wanting to attract more people is a good thing.

    But those of us who've been playing games of this ilk for a long time...I can see why they feel somewhat upset. Ultimately all games of this kind revolve around the combat and a system that fluctuates between accessible and indepth, it can be somewhat jarring. And that bayonetta, vanquish and dark souls were the last 3 games of this type; so dmc's more accessible approach stands out even more.

    I still kinda like this game though but I don't think it has the long term legs of the previous two games in the series. And my disdain for ninja theory prior to this game makes me even more astonished that I like the game at all so clearly they're doing something right. But people who feel strongly about this will dislike it period so jin's viewpoint is perfectly valid to me as well.

    I froth at the mouth when people mention fps and console in the same sentence. :)

    Edit: IPad's auto correct....#%{^]^*#+#*^>~<^}

    Edited by khaz at 06:59:53 25-01-2013
  • mikew1985 25 Jan 2013 08:25:41 12,756 posts
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    Uggh, issue with the PC version not downloading, but telling me everything is downloaded. Checked integrity of game cache and everything, just doesn't seem to want to actually download the files

    Edited by mikew1985 at 08:25:51 25-01-2013
  • neilka 25 Jan 2013 08:31:53 15,991 posts
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    It's happening to me too, and apparently everyone who used a retail/GMG key rather than buying from Steam directly.
    http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3062184

    Hopefully it'll work once it's released at 6pm!

    A map is like comparing velocity and speed.

  • neilka 25 Jan 2013 08:32:48 15,991 posts
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    Actually the store page says it's released now so it's not a preload issue anymore...

    A map is like comparing velocity and speed.

  • mikew1985 25 Jan 2013 08:38:39 12,756 posts
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    Yep, it's just a not working issue.
  • mikew1985 25 Jan 2013 09:09:33 12,756 posts
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    Working now.
  • khaz 25 Jan 2013 10:02:34 2,787 posts
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    Initial reports are that it's 60fps even it's all shiny wotsits on? And that it's actually a good port and swaps between m&kb and pad flawlessly. Plus full controller config?

    Hmmm. Once I hear reports in this thread I'll switch to pc version I think if this is all true.

    The 60fps thing seals it for me really, if the performance is consistent that is. I just loaded up Bayonetta and suddenly going back to 30fps here is quite odd.

    Did they give a reason why dmc was gonna be 30fps?

    Edited by khaz at 10:06:03 25-01-2013
  • King_Edward 25 Jan 2013 12:52:14 11,454 posts
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    They said it was to have a more interactive world.
  • NotSoSlim 25 Jan 2013 13:50:30 3,125 posts
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    Finally working but PS3 pad crashes the game. Fudging annoying but great port.
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