Who should come and who should go? Page 2

  • Page

    of 386 First / Last

  • unsung_hero 28 Apr 2008 20:54:57 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    kentmonkey wrote:
    I suppose on the contrary I just think you rate both far too highly (especially in the case of Hleb, who drifts in and out of games and rarely delivers any end product at all) and I don't just rate players because they play for Arsenal.

    Gareth Barry, for me, is a better all rounder than Flamini. He's not Flamini, they're different players, but overall if I had to choose one, I would choose Barry. A player who has been loyal to his club for years, despite being able to earn more money elsewhere, and only now thinking about moving on to finally win some silverware.

    I probably respect Barry as a professional more than I do Flamini, if he leaves like we expect in the summer, but he is certainly not the better player, and it would be devolution for us to sign him. In many ways Barry reminds me of Gilberto, a tidy and composed and loyal trooper who puts in a solid shift of work each game. Flamini is the opposite of this, like a man on speed, someone who doggedly sprints from box to box chasing every ball, exploding into challenges, and giving our team a real drive and momentum in everything we do. See how sluggish we have been with Denilson playing in this first half, with Flamini instead we would have someone picking up all these loose balls, and stopping these half hearted break aways.

    Flamini, alone, gives us balance, symmetry, a complete nimble and technical midfield, as well as his defensive prowess. Barry only gives us the latter, and his capable, but basic passing. I know I've done nothing to convince you, simply echoing the same points over and over, but I can't rieterate enough how valuable Flamini has been this season, and how much of a step backwards it would be to replace him with Barry.
  • Dougs 28 Apr 2008 21:02:01 67,034 posts
    Seen 6 minutes ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I was actually thinking of Barry for LM more than the middle. Not right for us there, but could do a job wide left.
  • Dougs 28 Apr 2008 21:04:51 67,034 posts
    Seen 6 minutes ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Oh, and KM, I fundementally disagree with your views on Hleb. To me, he is essential to the way we play. He rarely wastes a pass, keeps the ball brilliantly and has been outstanding this year, especially the first 6 months. He's tailed off a bit recently, probably looking East towards Italy. I reckon he's one of 4 or 5 players AW puts on the team sheet first.

    Edit: Sorry, that sounded rather shouty. Wasn't meant to. :)
  • unsung_hero 28 Apr 2008 21:08:23 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Dougs wrote:
    Oh, and KM, I fundementally disagree with your views on Hleb. To me, he is essential to the way we play. He rarely wastes a pass, keeps the ball brilliantly and has been outstanding this year, especially the first 6 months. He's tailed off a bit recently, probably looking East towards Italy. I reckon he's one of 4 or 5 players AW puts on the team sheet first.

    Big +1
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 13:33:18 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Dougs wrote:
    Oh, and KM, I fundementally disagree with your views on Hleb. To me, he is essential to the way we play. He rarely wastes a pass, keeps the ball brilliantly and has been outstanding this year, especially the first 6 months. He's tailed off a bit recently, probably looking East towards Italy. I reckon he's one of 4 or 5 players AW puts on the team sheet first.

    Edit: Sorry, that sounded rather shouty. Wasn't meant to. :)

    Didn't sound shouty at all mate, not at all.

    I just don't see him as being essential to the way we play; if we played to his strengths then maybe, but he's not a winger, which is what Arsene wants him to be. He can't cross, he really, really can't, so much so that whenever he gets into a position to cross...he cuts back...every...single...time.

    I'm lucky to work with a few guys that aren't Arsenal supporters but yet don't knock any of our players purely because they don't play for their teams. They think Adebayor, Fabregas, Flamini, Clichy, Sagna (impressed everybody), RVP (when fit) and Walcott are all quality. They all take the piss out of Hleb though, purely because he never wants to take a chance, and just does the same thing every time he's in a position to cross, which is check back and usually try to lay it to Clichy.

    I also disagree that he very rarely misses a pass, he's very wasteful, IMO, anywhere near the box. He just doesn't make decisions quickly enough, and usually chooses the wrong one when he's finally made up his mind.

    I really don't think we'd miss him. We'd miss Flamini more, but I think we can replace him (I certainly don't think Flamini is World Class or irreplaceable, he's bloody good but let's remember that he's only had one great season and this could easily be a one-off. I don't think it is, but how many other players over the years for Arsenal and other clubs has one player had a phenomenal season, only to then go backwards from there). Hleb going, for me, will only improve the balance of the team as we will then potentially have the option of purchasing a winger who does want to cross, who does want to put in killer balls and who won't refuse an opportunity to shoot when he has one.

    Hleb is undeniably good, and in the right team I think he could be really very good indeed. I just don't think he's what we need, which for me is a Maxi Rodriguez/Mancini/Ribery or somebody of that ilk.
  • Dougs 29 Apr 2008 13:36:44 67,034 posts
    Seen 6 minutes ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Alex rarely plays on the wing though - he just comes and goes where he pleases, and is invariably involved with Cesc in most moves we put together. I know what you mean about his indecision though, he does dwell a little and could easily shoot more. I'd be interested in his Opta pass/completion rate stats actually.
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 13:41:09 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    That's kinda the problem though, for me anyway. He should be playing on the wing, he's clearly meant to be playing left wing, but he goes awol into the centre and we become unbalanced.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hleb is a bad player. I do think he's frustrating and needs to be much more decisive and less predictable, but he's undeniably good. I just honestly think we'd play better as a 'team' with more structure, somebody on the left that would do a job there and put in some killer balls for Ade, as well as bag more than 5 goals a season from that position (he should really be getting 10 for me in 50+ games, if not more).

    I also remembered another player I'd like us to sign at the weekend...Sylvain Distin. I think he'd be the missing link in our back four; quick, can mark a player and is really good in the air.
  • Dougs 29 Apr 2008 13:45:16 67,034 posts
    Seen 6 minutes ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I gave up caring about where our wide players played years ago! They've never conformed to type under Wenger really. Although there's no denying that Alex was much better when played behind Ade at the start of the season.

    Not sure about Distin - seems to have a touch of the Senderos/Silvestre for me - can be outstanding for 85 mins then go AWOL.

  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 13:47:17 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I do wonder with him if that's because he has a few loonies around him, thus he has to cover. I do know what you mean, probably just giving him the benefit of the doubt that it's the lack of real defensive quality around him.

    Heh, on second thoughts then, that's probably not what we need! :o)
  • THFourteen 29 Apr 2008 13:57:02 33,108 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    unsung_hero wrote:Stuff about Barry

    Couldn't agree with you more.

    Nothing against Barry, but he's no more than a trier really, he lacks that final quality that makes you a world class player, and he'll always just be a good player.

    Left foottedness is a bonus i guess, but doesn't overcome his other kindof obvious deficiencies.

    Bring back Manu!
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 14:07:52 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I don't think you need to be World Class though. I just think you need to bring qualities that a team doesn't already have.

    I think we need a 'trier'. I think we need someone to just do a job in there and prevent the back four from the constant barrage of attacks that they have had to face this year.

    He's got different qualities to Flamini, and he may not be the answer, but I don't think writing somebody off purely because they're not World Class is wise. You can't have a team of 11 World Class players, for a start they wouldn't necessarily gel let alone the wage bill for all of those.

    I suppose I think Barry brings qualities we lack in there; strength, good passing (he's better than you're giving him credit for there), great heading ability, a cool head, determination and fantastic defensive qualities. That won't be for everyone I know, but I think with him in the middle (if Flamini does go) and somebody like Ribery on the left, we'd be a better team.
  • THFourteen 29 Apr 2008 14:26:46 33,108 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    True, you don't have to be world class to play for us.

    I just think that there ARE world class midfielders who offer this:

    Vieira
    Makelele
    Essien
    Hargreaves (maybe not)
    Mascherano
    Flamini (soon to be)

    we shouldn't have to settle for someone who's not brilliant IMO.

    We already have Song/Denis/Gilberto who can do jobs in that position.
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 14:30:56 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I don't think Song/Gilberto or Denilson are either there or that quality now though. Song could be very good, but he needs another 1-2 years yet minimum I think. Denilson I really don't think will make it as a DM, perhaps a wide man or even AM, but not a DM. And Gilberto really isn't what he was, bless him, even though I really do still like the guy and wish him all the best. Model professional that guy, someone to be really proud of having in our squad I think.

    Vieira/Makelele are also passed it, Hargreaves isn't as good as Barry, imo. Essien won't leave Chelsea, Masherano won't leave Liverpool (and I wouldn't want him, great player, not sure about his character).

    Barry isn't the answer to all of our problems, just that he's someone available who could really strengthen our squad in the right areas with the right qualities to improve us. There could be someone else available though, probably from Kuwait or somewhere random, that Arsene will uncover and buy for 1.25m in the summer that turns out to be a hit. There's no one better at that than him after all.
  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 14:32:33 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Post deleted
  • Dougs 29 Apr 2008 14:33:01 67,034 posts
    Seen 6 minutes ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    As I said earlier, my consideration of Barry was purely as someone who could come in and do a good job in LM rather than CM.

    Edit: And agree unsung, nice *ahem*summary. :)
  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 14:34:37 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    kentmonkey wrote:
    I just don't see him as being essential to the way we play; if we played to his strengths then maybe, but he's not a winger, which is what Arsene wants him to be. He can't cross, he really, really can't, so much so that whenever he gets into a position to cross...he cuts back...every...single...time.

    But that is the way we play!

    Expecting him or anyone to cross is missing the beauty and quality of our style of play, which although can occasionally be frustrating, is the most satisfying thing about being an Arsenal supporter, and Hleb is an absolutely vital component of this.

    I'm lucky to work with a few guys that aren't Arsenal supporters but yet don't knock any of our players purely because they don't play for their teams. They think Adebayor, Fabregas, Flamini, Clichy, Sagna (impressed everybody), RVP (when fit) and Walcott are all quality. They all take the piss out of Hleb though, purely because he never wants to take a chance, and just does the same thing every time he's in a position to cross, which is check back and usually try to lay it to Clichy.

    Hleb is inextricably underrated by most people, but then you can almost forgive them for not understanding the way we play, an excuse you don't have. It's almost like your colleagues are pressuring you into disliking Hleb and you are watching him through cynical analytical goggles, focusing only on his mistakes and weaknesses. Really consider how me, and other fans, can have such markedly contrasting opinions on him.

    I also disagree that he very rarely misses a pass, he's very wasteful, IMO, anywhere near the box. He just doesn't make decisions quickly enough, and usually chooses the wrong one when he's finally made up his mind.

    I disagree completely, because you are completely incorrect. He is sometimes perfect, and usually not far off, always making cute accurate passes that cut through opposition. Consider his opta stats, fourth in the league with an 83% success rate, which is higher than Fabregas, and likely most players in the league, which is even more impressive considering the creative and penetrative nature of most of his passes. I will also link this video (MotD analysis), which although is only one game (and a top one at that), is fairly representative of a typical performance.

    I really don't think we'd miss him. We'd miss Flamini more, but I think we can replace him (I certainly don't think Flamini is World Class or irreplaceable, he's bloody good but let's remember that he's only had one great season and this could easily be a one-off. I don't think it is, but how many other players over the years for Arsenal and other clubs has one player had a phenomenal season, only to then go backwards from there). Hleb going, for me, will only improve the balance of the team as we will then potentially have the option of purchasing a winger who does want to cross, who does want to put in killer balls and who won't refuse an opportunity to shoot when he has one.

    I couldn't disagree more, him and Fabregas are our two most important attacking players, both dictating everything we do, and everything we do is usually immeasurably beautiful to watch. He is second no one when it comes to playing an intricate passing/movement game.

    Hleb is undeniably good, and in the right team I think he could be really very good indeed. I just don't think he's what we need, which for me is a Maxi Rodriguez/Mancini/Ribery or somebody of that ilk.

    But Arsenal is the right team, the perfect team, one that plays entirely to his qualities.
  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 14:43:05 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Post deleted
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 15:00:17 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Unsung, you can eugilise all you want to, I don't rate Hleb. Saying things like 'I'm being pressurised into not liking him' is, to be perfectly frank, quite pathetic and childish. Do you really honestly think I could be pressurised into not liking somebody? Do you think I'm 12?

    I don't just talk to non-arsenal fans, I happen to live in a small village with seven of us that all watch it regularly (on TV/PC), one of which came to a match with me earlier in the year when I met up with Dougs and TH14 and, if I had more money, would go more regularly with him as he goes quite often. He and the other five find Hleb frustrating and inessential to the team and we all agree that he's not what we need to progress. If he plays as a support striker, he rarely takes a chance, and rarely creates a goal.

    I don't expect everyone to think the same, I'm not trying to convince you to think otherwise either. I'm telling you my opinion on the matter. Telling me that my opinion is wrong, and trying to convert me into some love-in for Hleb isn't going to work.

    I know how Arsenal play, I've supported them for 27 years, I don't need someone telling me how we play. We all have different opinions on what would work, who would be best, who should go.

    I don't really care for Opta passing stats, they don't show how good those passes were, whether they penetrated the defence, whether they all went backwards to Clichy, nothing. Hell I could make 84% of my passes if I was to only pass the ball five yards, and I can't play football anymore. What they don't conveniently show is how many times he's dwelled on the ball, lost it, chosen the wrong ball completely (still made the pass, but chosen the completely wrong one for the situation), nothing like that. I could counter-argue that he has only set up 8 goals all season. 8 from someone who supposedly does cute penetrative passes.

    I don't mean for this to be aggressive, but constantly trying to turn me into a Hleb lover and preaching to me about how we play, how beautiful we are, how cute he is and how the sun shines out of his backside, isn't going to convert me. See I'm not someone that can be 'pressurised' into thinking something I don't believe. The fans are split on Hleb, probably 50/50, and I'm on the other side of the fence, able to see that he's undeniably at times a great player and at others a frustrating ineffective one. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, what is is that for me we need something different to a Hleb. We need a Pires or a Ljungberg, a goal-getting assist machine of a winger/AM. Something Hleb really isn't, no matter how many 5 yard passes he completes.

  • THFourteen 29 Apr 2008 15:14:44 33,108 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Maybe Hleb just has a really big willy.
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 15:16:37 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    :o)
  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 15:42:04 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Post deleted
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 15:49:01 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I'll just agree to disagree as I really don't think you're understanding what I'm saying (or don't want to), there was so much contradiction between your posts ('your friends opinions aren't valid' compared to 'most fans like Hleb' a few posts back), you're being incredibly patronising and condescending ('you and your tiny village', 'conformity', 'large number of opinions are wrong', 'your opinions are misguided') and I haven't got the energy for this 'debate'.

    EDIT: Nice delete.
  • w00t 29 Apr 2008 16:02:10 11,065 posts
    Seen 22 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Let's all get along!

    Who's for a cuppa Bovril? That Clichy's good, isn't he?

    The day charity died - NEVER FORGET

    (the mic was OK in the end)

  • Dougs 29 Apr 2008 16:06:54 67,034 posts
    Seen 6 minutes ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    It's like me and KM re Senderos all over again. :)

    I know some people don't rate Hleb. I do, and so do many others, but I guess only one person's opinion really counts in the end eh?!
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 16:07:55 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Nah, our friendly banter on Senderos was fun. I ended up being right though! ;o)

    And yes, Clichy is fantastic, he even puts Hleb's crosses in for him!
  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 16:09:41 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    I was just writing a long and patronising post about how some opinions are better than others, and how some people are incapable of appreciating a higher quality of football, and how Arsenal is too good for some people. I stopped my self though, because I am above that.

    ...
  • kentmonkey 29 Apr 2008 16:11:29 20,544 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    unsung_hero wrote:
    I was just writing a long and patronising post about how some opinions are better than others, and how some people are incapable of appreciating a higher quality of football, and how Arsenal is too good for some people. I stopped my self though, because I am above that.

    ...

    Oh I don't know, you could have used the delete button again.
  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 16:13:45 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Oh shit, that told me.
  • w00t 29 Apr 2008 16:20:38 11,065 posts
    Seen 22 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    unsung_hero wrote:
    I was just writing a long and patronising post about how some opinions are better than others, and how some people are incapable of appreciating a higher quality of football, and how Arsenal is too good for some people. I stopped my self though, because I am above that.

    ...
    Dude, this is not helping your cause. Relax...

    The day charity died - NEVER FORGET

    (the mic was OK in the end)

  • unsung_hero 29 Apr 2008 16:21:25 939 posts
    Seen 6 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    I'm fully (half) joking.
  • Page

    of 386 First / Last

Log in or register to reply