Spanish Inquisition

By Johnny Minkley Published 29 September, 2006

Peter Moore talks Peter Jackson, HD-DVD and slugging it out with Sony.

Big guns, big announcements and a big, hairy man who made a film about a big, hairy ape. X06 was Microsoft's most assured stage performance yet, backing up a solid Christmas games line-up with a bunch of major new games and exclusives as it threw down the gauntlet to Sony just ahead of the PS3 launch.

Despite having stayed up all night to 'network' at Microsoft's swanky post-conference bash (the 30-minute queue for the barbecue drove us to drink, your honour), we dutifully hauled ourselves up at the crack of dawn to spar with Xbox top dog Peter Moore. On good form as ever, he attempted to explain what on Earth it is Peter Jackson's supposed to be doing, while promising more games for the masses and taking the now traditional swipes at Sony.

Eurogamer: If we can begin by talking about your partnership with Peter Jackson. It was a great headline-grabbing announcement on the night, but we're still not entirely clear what he's doing. In the follow-up conference this morning he said he wasn't really interested in making games but wanted to find new ways to tell stories - so what will he be doing?

Peter Moore: What you've just said is the key, he's not interested in games. And what he means is he's not interested in the current definition of what games have been in the past.

He's one of these guys that sometimes, and he'll tell you this, has difficultly saying in a coherent way what it is that he's doing. But you know in that brain that he's simply figuring out what all this is about and then applying the brilliance of who he is to this medium. And when we look at what needs to happen in the future, we need to progress the medium. He is the master of that - he revolutionised filmmaking.

What Peter's been working on is really fact-finding and absorbing what the business is. It helps that he's a very passionate gamer. He's more interested in game releases than movie releases. And believe me who knows what games are coming out.

So it may be frustrating that he couldn't put it in a box, but what you heard last night was that we're going to work with Microsoft Games Studios and Wingnut Films to develop Wingnut Interactive. The great advantage he has down there as well is that a lot of those guys are hardcore gamers.

I think an evolution of the medium is what's going to happen, and it's going to evolve over time as to how we roll out what's going on.

'Spanish Inquisition' Screenshot 1

Jackson's a 'voracious absorber of all things Halo,' Moore tells us. Hence the film and game spin-off.

Eurogamer: But is it actually games he's going to be working on?

Peter Moore: If you will describe them when they come out as the format we now right know as videogames, yes. You've got an extension to the Halo universe - he's a voracious absorber of all things Halo and he will be working with Bungie on a new game experience that is Halo. And then there will be new intellectual property that he'll be trying to develop.

Wingnut Interactive is a partnership that is a sharing of ideas, a sharing of resources, both human and fiscal. We've made a commitment to each other to get this thing going and get it going immediately.

Eurogamer: People were sceptical when you announced your target at E3, but you now seem very confident of hitting 10 million units this year.

Peter Moore: We feel even better about that after last night. Certainly reading what you guys said - it felt like we were doing our job, given the content and the reasons for people to buy. We'll continue to deliver on our commitments; inventory is flowing into the markets. The other thing people forget is that we continue to open up new markets.

We open up in India this weekend, and while it's still an evolving economy, it's a billion people. And I was very impressed to be in New Delhi and see how things have grown. Retail malls are growing middle-class, and these are economies we never engaged with in previous generations of videogames. And we haven't even touched places like China and Russia which eventually will evolve into consumer markets. So yeah, we feel real good about our numbers.

'Spanish Inquisition' Screenshot 2

Software titles that expand 360's appeal, like Guitar Hero II, are in development, says Moore.

Eurogamer: You said on stage that there's now "something for everyone" in 360's software portfolio - but I'd disagree with that. You're doing a great job at making games for gamers, as was proved by the range of content on display last night. But you still lack titles that will genuinely broaden the audience in the same way that SingStar and Buzz has for Sony and Nintendogs and Brain Training has for Nintendo. Where are these types of title?

Peter Moore: We recognise that what we call the Family Funster stuff, if it's a category, is something we need to do better on. I will say that we do a lot of research on who's playing Xbox Live Arcade, and you may think that's still just gamers. But when you really dig deep down into research in households, more and more people are getting engaged in Arcade games.

Now we're hearing a lot of research that dad loves playing Pac-Man, Galaga, Street Fighter.... That is a demographic that's maybe not interested in Fable 2. And Sensible Soccer is something they remember with great glee. Arcade is certainly a platform to have better experiences on.

The camera opens up all types of possibilities not just with video chat but interesting ways to interact with the game.

Eurogamer: Okay, other family members may be playing Arcade, but mum or sister isn't going to buy an Xbox 360 for Arcade, where they are buying PS2 for SingStar and DS for Nintendogs. You do have Viva Pinata coming, which is aimed at kids, but when are we going to see other titles with broader appeal?

Peter Moore: Well, it's not a huge number, but there are now people forming focus groups who have gone out and bought an Xbox 360 purely for Arcade. They're not hundreds of thousands, but we are seeing that. Now what that does to our attach rate, I don't know. But you are seeing people who are used to downloading things, and this is a digital distribution model, who quite frankly may never buy a disc. And I'm not sure what I think about that.

But I recognise it's still something we need to do. With Viva Pinata there's this interesting concept of building an animated series - this is Microsoft doing children's television, creating IP, working with 4Kids who've been very, very good with us in collaborating with Rare.

And there's a lot more in the future of how we'll bring Viva Pinata to market, obviously for a younger demographic - we're looking at 8-12 year olds, and we're going to take them online in a safe way.

If we'd said two years ago we'll have stuff for 8-12 year olds on Xbox Live I'm sure you'd have given me a slightly puzzled look. But I recognise that and we are doing a lot of stuff, we're just not ready to announce it yet.

'Spanish Inquisition' Screenshot 3

Viva Pinata aims to entice games in a younger demographic to Xbox 360.

Eurogamer: So these types of games are definitely in development?

Peter Moore: Oh yeah. And it's more than just games. Buzz, Singstar, Guitar Hero - there are peripherals and stuff of that nature. Things that in some instances take the controller away and give you things you feel more comfortable with.

You make a good point that, in the traditional sense, we're checking the boxes of a lot of genres and that's important. I think people feel real good about seeing Banjo back. Blue Dragon is something that's a risk, but I so believe in that game. I have every intention of localising that game and it's a unique game experience.

Is it always a risk because it's too Japanese? Well I don't believe in that. I think great games are great games. These are the great storytellers from Japan, from anime, manga and of course games. If you're going to hit 100 million you need to address that market. We're still finding ways to be able to do that, but we will. I absolutely guarantee that we will.

It's about getting people to interact with the games console, regardless of whether they do it for 30 hours a week or ten hours a week, whether it's my mum or my sister or my daughter. Those are the people we need to get.

Eurogamer: The HD-DVD drive is coming later this year. How much of an impact do you expect it to have, and how many units are you bringing to market?

Peter Moore: We're not going to give specific numbers. These are early days for the HD-DVD player. Our goal is to provide choice, as I said ad nauseam last night - when we look at what gamers are looking to spend their money on right now, some of them are fortunate enough to have 50-inch TVs, and those are the ones who'll say that for £129 this is a great deal.

You've got to remember with the Xbox 360 that a lot of the heavy lifting's already done - as you now know we natively output in 1080p, so for the player that attaches in it's a nice extension to their entertainment centre. But it's probably not for the majority of people right now. And the HD-DVD versus the other guy format 'wars' are still far from being resolved. But it was very important to us that we're able to provide a choice to that consumer.

Eurogamer: You've done a great PR job so far in accusing Sony of forcing people down a technology path they don't necessarily want with Blu-ray, while you offer consumers a choice with the HD-DVD add on. But isn't it actually the case the Blu-ray is fundamental to PS3 in terms of games, enabling it to do things in terms of data and streaming that you can't?

'Spanish Inquisition' Screenshot 4

'Gears of War looked pretty good on DVD9 last night' - Moore on whether next-gen DVD storage is necessary for next-gen games.

Peter Moore: So if you take the model that you still need bits of plastic for data and streaming, using your words, fine. I don't think that's the model going forward. It's our view right now - consumers are telling us more and more as memory is becoming cheaper and HDDs are becoming bigger and the ability to store things... I have what I think is the optimal set-up. I have a Media Centre PC with a 250Gb hard drive connected to my Xbox 360. If you think you have to have huge optical disc storage formats, fine. I tell you what, Gears of War looked pretty good on DVD9 last night.

And the ability for Rockstar to deliver extra content, hours of extra gameplay, exclusively for 360 doesn't require huge optical disc storage. Call it PR or not - it's our messaging and that would be PR, and there's nothing wrong with PR [gestures to PR in the room and laughs]. But it's a fact. We've got to be cognisant that not everyone wants to fork out that kind of money.

We learned our lesson very much with the original Xbox - building a hard drive into every box, ahead of what consumers were looking for in that particular experience. You don't want to burden the box. That's the balance you have to have in this world of consumer devices - you've got to have enough to make it attractive as a value-for-money proposition.

Eurogamer: So you don't believe there's any advantage for PlayStation 3 with Blu-ray in terms of the games we'll be seeing over the next few years?

Peter Moore: The thing I'd say is that Sony Corporation is almost on the brink of betting the company on Blu-ray. And that's just paraphrasing from analyst reports and as a consumer. And we are not in the business of closed formats. The ability for consumers to make that choice is important to us.

First and foremost it's a games console. I talked about it last night. At the core is your games, the next thing we worry about is your friends, then finally the outside layer is lifestyle. And I would argue that maybe Sony has that reversed. It's as simple as that. If I look at lifestyle and friends - I'm sure there's going to be a PS3 online service - and then games seems to be on the outer core. That's just my opinion.

We're very clear on what we're building here and that's a superior games experience and not a blunt object to win a high-definition movie war. Sony is mired in the past of technical devices.

Picture of Johnny.

About Johnny Minkley

Eurogamer TV's Johnny Minkley is a veteran journalist with a lifelong passion for games and the games industry. He uses Twitter more than most people use air.

Read more articles from Johnny by visiting the Johnny Minkley archive page.

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Comments (126) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Azazel #1 5 years ago

    Kind of considering the HD-DVD now... Don't really care much for King Kong tho tbh

    *EDIT* - How cool does that Guitar Hero II controller look btw? :D gibsontastic
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 16:27

  • bag-in-box #2 5 years ago

    I would like to hear what they have to say about the high numbers of broken boxes.. Still waiting for someone not afraid of asking and presenting the evidence.
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 16:30

  • peterfll #3 5 years ago

    Hmmm.... this seems to be Mr Moore getting back on track after making those ridiculous comments the other week about who the ideal 360 consumer was......

  • Pac #4 5 years ago

    @bag-in-box

    You're not wrong. Had to take mine back to Game yesterday after Dead Rising caused it to freeze at regular intervals.

    Word of advice to early adopters - get machine changed before warranty expires.

  • Gurgeh #5 5 years ago

    Already been asked (22nd)

    [link url=h ttp://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13902
    ]http://bi z.gamedaily.com/industry/featur...[/link]

    "An MS spokesperson told GameDaily BIZ today, "Yes, it is true. As part of our standard and ongoing process of analyzing repair data, we recently noticed a higher than usual number of units coming in for repair. Upon further investigation, it was further discovered that the bulk of the units were isolated to a group that was part of the initial manufacturing run of the console. Returns for repair are coming in for a variety reasons and it's a higher rate than we are satisfied with."

    The MS representative could not provide us with an exact figure for the failure rate, but it's clearly above the three to five percent range that MS had been claiming originally. As such, the company also revealed that in an effort to make amends with consumers, it will compensate those consumers who bought an Xbox 360 prior to 2006 and have had trouble with the machine. "We've made the decision to comp repairs for consoles manufactured before January 1, and provide refunds to the small group of customers who have already paid for repairs," the rep explained.

    Microsoft also stressed to us that this should not be considered an extended warranty of any sort and it does not apply to Xbox 360s produced in 2006."

  • JHuxley #6 5 years ago

    "We're very clear on what we're building here and that's a superior games experience and not a blunt object to win a high-definition movie war. Sony is mired in the past of technical devices."

    Easy pickings, eh? Yeah, I'm sure Micrsosoft have never used trojan horse tactics before. They're whiter than white, just like Mr Moore here. He has no ulterior motives. Oh no.

    Seriously, not much I'd disagree with there. Not too much I found interesting, either.

  • toy_brain #7 5 years ago

    Hmm, he did seem to skirt around the issue of DVD vs BR storage capacity quite a bit. Went off on one hell of a tangent.

    But I suppose you have to if yer in that kinda position.

  • Darren #8 5 years ago

    /wants a Wii!

  • king_skins #9 5 years ago

    where are the previews & hands-on reports from X06?? I wanna read about Forza2!!

  • Yossarian #10 5 years ago

    I don't think Moore was depicting his 'ideal' consumer in that little ramble a few weeks back, but more obviously the average consumer, and particularly the average American consumer. as things stand. and from my experiences on XBL chatting to stoned college kids at 4am their time, it's a somewhat accurate depiction.

  • kangarootoo #11 5 years ago

    "If you will describe them when they come out as the format we now right know as videogames, yes."

    Oh ffs. We are skating dangerously close to "artist formerly known as prince" territory with that one. Lets just call them games PM, because thats what they are. The dictionary got there first on that one mate.

    Oh I know its his job to say these things, and usually I would be the one defending him by saying that.

  • Yossarian #12 5 years ago

    "Hmm, he did seem to skirt around the issue of DVD vs BR storage capacity quite a bit. Went off on one hell of a tangent.

    But I suppose you have to if yer in that kinda position."

    I think there's only so many ways you can reiterate that nothing so far (apart from Resistance, apparently, and I'm sceptical) has pushed past the capacity of a DVD9, and Oblivion is often cited as evidence that it's going to take a mammoth game to do so. furthermore, multiple discs were common in the PS era, and still are on PC, and no one complained. if Blu-Ray were offering something more -- like faster disc reads over DVD9, for instance -- it might be a different story. but that's not the case.

    what Blu-Ray does for games currently:
    1. allows for multiple languages on one disc!
    2. affords the duplication of content in different sectors to compensate for being a little slower than DVD9.
    3. drives up the cost of production
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 16:52

  • #13 5 years ago

    Came off pretty well. Very confident, as usual, and not pansy-assed questions either.

    I gues it's hard not too when you show all that content the day before. Like 3-5 times more than your primary cometitor. And in addition you already have 2-3 times more already out.

  • Xerx3s #14 5 years ago

    /throws a PS3 at yellowtruck

    ;)

  • kangarootoo #15 5 years ago

    "Blue Dragon is something that's a risk, but I so believe in that game. I have every intention of localising that game and it's a unique game experience."

    Please leave the Japanese dialogue as an option. The voicing in the movie I saw was great, and I fear the translated dialogue will lose much of the appeal.

  • Les #16 5 years ago

    "Because i'm not buying into that PR line either. If it offers better gaming experiences, I'd like to see it, and i'm not seeing it."

    Not really amazing as you have not yet seen and experienced a finished PS3 game. BluRay of course is not necessary for games, just like DVD wasn't, CD wasn't and every other media type since the good old cassetes. What it does offer is extra possibilities for developers: I'd be very surprised if developers would not make good use of the extra available space. I've said it before and I'll say it again: up until 360 every new console generation has used a media format with extra storage space and up until now the developers have always taken advantage of it. This is no 100% guarantee that BluRay will enhance the gameplay experience of course, so if the games don't deliver, I'll not get a PS3. Quite simple. And please don't repeat those foolish arguments that PC and 360 have proven that you can make great High def games on DVD. Yes they've proven that but they don't prove that the additional storage space can't be put to good use.

    "HDDs are becoming bigger and the ability to store things"

    If HDDs are so important, why not include one in every 360? Doesn't sound to logical to me. Maybe for Xbox they were too soon and cost was too high but if Live is such an integral part of the 360 experience, a version without HD is kind of a joke. You lure people in with what seems like a cheap and good deal but before they know it, to really enjoy it they've got to buy all kind of peripherals that make it way more expensive in the end than the full version. Downloadable content for 360 is all nice and cool, but if a large percentage of your userbase can't get it without an expensive upgrade, well...

  • drumbaby #17 5 years ago

    /DOESN'T WANT A 360

  • #18 5 years ago

    /useless retarded flame-bait comment
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 17:02

  • #19 5 years ago

    "Oh and give the man (Peter Jackson) a PS2 and a copy of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus.

    Let's see if he can beat them."
    I'd be surprised if he didn't already own all these things.

  • kangarootoo #20 5 years ago

    "Anyway I disagree on the definition of games"

    Well, at the risk of being a pedant (ok, theres no risk, I'm a pedant), I say again the dictionary got there first.

    [link url=http://di ctionary.reference.com/browse/game
    ]http://di ctionary.reference.com/browse/g...[/link]

    there are a bundle of choices in there, but my pick would be the first one,

    "an amusement or pastime"

    You say,

    "that they don't have any defined 'rules' like all games do, they don't center around skill, rather the journey through an interactive story"

    TBH, if that is the future of games I don't much like the sound of it. I like my games to rely on skill (be that cerebral or physical) and I also like my games to have rules (that doesn't mean they will be exccessivle restrictive. The real world has plenty of rules, E=mc2 etc). I don't just to be carried along by a story, I want to have a part in creating the story by my actions. I'm old enough to remember what games were like last time we trod the "interactive movie" path, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

  • coojam #21 5 years ago

    High Definition gaming has been on PC for 10 years and that worked on CD, let alone DVD!

  • Les #22 5 years ago

    "High Definition gaming has been on PC for 10 years and that worked on CD, let alone DVD!"

    Thanks... ;)

  • chupachups #23 5 years ago

    "I think a lot of modern 'games' are really interactive adventures / stories. They're not games in the sense that they don't have any defined 'rules' like all games do, they don't center around skill, rather the journey through an interactive story."

    No, that's nothing to do with "modern games". Story-based and non-skill games have been around since the beginning of gaming, in fact they used to be much more common.

    Story-based games have been around since the early 1980s, in text adventures (Zork etc), in graphic adventures (King's Quest etc), and they were huge hits in their own time. Both these genres gradually lost sales and faded away, and gaming became dominated by more action-oriented low-plot stuff like Doom.

    Freeform non-goal stuff like The Sims is really just an update of the similarly-freeform Little Computer People, and that was a huge hit in its own time too. There was another similar game on the Atari ST where you had to live someone's life for them but I can't remember its name now.

    As Coco Chanel said, people who think they're original have no sense of history.
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 17:09

  • kangarootoo #24 5 years ago

    Is there really such a thing as a non-skill game?

    Pedant time.

    http://di ctionary.reference.com/browse/s...

  • lambtron #25 5 years ago

    "Gameplay cannot be divorced from Graphics in most 'modern' 3D games."

    So that's why I don't enjoy games so much anymore!

    Stupid immersion, who gives a toss about that - grrr.

  • Les #26 5 years ago

    "That doesn't mean a fromat transition will be nescessary for every new console generation, for all eternity."

    I didn't say that. But I'm not sure whether the time to buck this trend has arrived yet. Sure, with compression techniques and procedural synthesis (or whatever it's called) you can do a lot of nice things with little space. But these techniques always come at an expense: they take up processing power. And if one thing is sure, there currently isn't (and I doubt there ever will be) a console with too much processing power (of course for individual games there might be). So for the time being, I'm willing to give BluRay the benefit of the doubt. But if all it results in is that all games originating from Japan will come featured with the original soundtrack, that's good enough for me (and I know that for many people this won't be enough, every purchase is a personal decision). :)
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 17:27

  • toy_brain #27 5 years ago

    "what Blu-Ray does for games currently:
    1. allows for multiple languages on one disc!
    2. affords the duplication of content in different sectors to compensate for being a little slower than DVD9.
    3. drives up the cost of production "

    Actually, right now Blu-Ray dosent do anything for games, because its not out yet. (Duh!), but I think it would be very naieve of people to assume that 9gb will be enough for everybody for all time to come - even just within this generation. There are already demo's on Live! that go over a gig. How big do you think the full game is going to be?

    As for the production costs - well, just like anything else, those will drop extremely quickly once mass-production gets underway.
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 17:48

  • rhinoxious #28 5 years ago

    Peter Moore: What you've just said is the key, he's not interested in games. And what he means is he's not interested in the current definition of what games have been in the past.

    Display - check
    Audio - check
    Control pad - check
    storyline - check
    obstacles to be overcome - check

    IT A VIDEO GAME!

    What else is he going to do??? If pong, WOW and phoenix wright are all games then what kind of magic new narrative is he going to create?

    At the end of the day Jackson isn't an artistic/conceptual director. He is very good at taking exising ideas and crafting them into compelling stories with coherent themes, while also micro-managing all the stuff that goes into a big budget SFX feature.

    He'd make a brilliant games producer, and could create stunning work, but he doesn't strike me as someone who's going to rewrite the rulebook.

  • matrim83 #29 5 years ago

    Nice interview. So any more goodies from X06.

  • rhinoxious #30 5 years ago

    Multiple disk?

    Agreed, I don't understand why people are so hung up on the 9GB limit. If it's a game with lots of levels (with widely varying texture sets), lots of FMV and tons of audio, then it may break the 9GB barrier.

    But that game will probably take some time to play (at least twenty hours you'd hope for all the art that's gone into it).

    If people can't be bothered to change a game disc once every 10 hours, then they must have a real problem with movies and CDs!!!!

  • kangarootoo #31 5 years ago

    @rhinoxious

    "Display - check
    Audio - check
    Control pad - check..." etc

    Well put.

  • toy_brain #32 5 years ago

    "If anything the existing software library for 360, the downloadable demo's, the average disk usage of Xbox 1 games, All provide a reasonable argument that blu-ray may not be absolutely nescessary for the next 5 years. "

    Unfortunately, sticking a 360 DVD into your PC drive dosent reveal any usefull info on how big the actual game disk is, because it just dosent pick up the filesystem under normal circumstances (well not my PC anyway).
    So I had to go to a naughty bittorrent site (mininova if you must know) to get this info.

    Some interesting stuff. The ISO filesizes for a few Xbox360 games are...
    Perfect Dark Zero - 7.05GB
    Dead Rising - 6.65GB
    Just Cause - 6.02GB

    Interestingly, the 'last-gen' Xbox version of Just Cause weighs in at only 1.95GB, so that should give you some idea of the increase in data caused by going next-gen and high-def.
    Not really an exact way of looking at things (I dont dabble in piracy at all so I know little about the ways of the ISO file) but certainly PDZ is getting very close to the maximim limit of a DVD9 disk - and that was a launch game.
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 18:05

  • daedalus2 #33 5 years ago

    @Rhinoxious:

    Spot on mate. Gaming just needs better storytelling: the fact that Metal Gear Solid is held up as exemplary in this regard shows us just how badly.

    There are two things that excite me about Peter Jackson getting involved in gaming: he knows how to tell stories, and he knows how to use digital actors that people can relate to as characters, not bits of CG puppetry.

    Hyperbole aside, I suspect and hope that PJ/Wingnut Interactive will end up working on first class linear experiences that take storytelling and digital performances to the next level, which would be a not inconsiderable achievement.

  • Les #34 5 years ago

    "If people can't be bothered to change a game disc once every 10 hours, then they must have a real problem with movies and CDs!!!!"

    Multiple disks isn't always an option (GTA style or non-linear games) and doesn't make publishers happy as it permanently drives up cost (two disks is always more expensive than one disk of the same format (addition made to prevent "BluRay disks are more expensive than DVD disks" arguments). So they will try other ways to put as much game in the given storage limits (compression, which comes at the cost of some processing power) before they decide to go for multiple disks.

    And yes, for many people content over multiple disks is a turn-off. Why do you think iPods, CDs/DVDs filled with mp3's are popular? ... Right. (and I know these make use (in general) of compression and that in turn can be a turn-off for a lot of people and iPod uses a harddisk instead of an optical format). It might not be a dealbreaker, but given the choice (and at roughly equal cost, which BluRay currently isn't but eventually will be) people will always prefer the "no-change" option.

  • Fubdub #35 5 years ago

    We are not in the business of closed formats


    uhm... right

  • captainrentboy #36 5 years ago

    Same old comments being chucked around I see,same old arguments.Why don't you all just get along?
    You 360 owners,why do you feel the need to argue with the people waiting for a PS3?If you're like me you've been having fun with a next gen,high defintion console for almost a year now,there's been some great exclusives so far and there's some fantastic looking games coming soon over the chrimbo period,be happy for fack sake.
    PS3 lovers,you don't have to keep harping on about Blu-Ray vs DVD,we all get it,one's bigger than the other,we all know the benefits,Sony's PR folk have being going on about it for what seems like an eternity now.You should all be overjoyed and laughing merrily knowing that within the next 6 months you'll finally have the 'superior' PS3 out on the market,and you can start seeing and experiencing for yourselves the necessity of the Blu-Ray drive,and you'll also ctually have some proof to back up your arguments.Until then,all of you,stop bloody repeating yourselves.Jesus:)

  • morriss #37 5 years ago

    I see Les is still defending all things Sony. Give it a rest, Les, it's boring.

    Very empty interview despite the good questions. Let's hope he delivers on his XBLA games promise, peej and I were discussing today that DS-style game need to be more prominant than just old re-hashed IP's.

    He's avoided the Peter Jackson question too. Just 'what' is he doing? :)

  • Carrybagma #38 5 years ago

    So. Where's J.Allard these days?

  • Qbert2k #39 5 years ago

    "So if you take the model that you still need bits of plastic for data and streaming, using your words, fine. I don't think that's the model going forward. It's our view right now - consumers are telling us more and more as memory is becoming cheaper and HDDs are becoming bigger and the ability to store things... I have what I think is the optimal set-up. I have a Media Centre PC with a 250Gb hard drive connected to my Xbox 360. If you think you have to have huge optical disc storage formats, fine."

    See, this just affirms to me what I said in the other thread about MS not really being committed to hd-dvd. They see all media in the future being stored on hdd and streamed from Windows (vista, xpmc etc) to the console in the living room, it's a win-win situation for them.
    Edited by 2 at 29/09/06 @ 19:37

  • JediMasterMalik #40 5 years ago

    I see Les is still defending all things Sony. Give it a rest, Les, it's boring.

    Is it that bad to have two sides to an argument?

    Some people beleive BD isn't useful for games, some people beleive it is. You may agree with the former, but just because you do doesn't mean the people who beleive in the latter should be silenced. Surely not?

    Let him have his opinion, and you have yours, let it be heard, just don't dismiss his opinion like it doesn't matter because you disagree with it. Because that would make you a fanboy.

    Besides, even if his opinion is in support of Sony, at least he does it in a well thought out manner, rather than resorting to blatant fanboyism, a la Killasouljah. ;)

  • Azazel #41 5 years ago

    Is it that bad to have two sides to an argument?

    UT vs Q3
    SNES vs Mega Drive
    PS vs Saturn
    PS2 vs XBOX
    PS3 v XBOX360
    AMD vs INTEL

    Having two sides to an arguement is always very bad :)

  • ronuds #42 5 years ago

    The size of a DVD9 for video games was never an issue until Sony said it was. So, to me, it's still not an issue. Just because a company who's trying to push a new DVD format as the next "big thing" tells me that I suddenly need more disc space for my video games, doesn't mean I have to necessarily believe it.

    Sure, the 50 gigs is certainly not a bad thing, but I've yet to see a game that's needed it. PC's have multiple disc games, BUT, you load those "extra" discs onto your computer's HD and then you only need 1 disc to actually play the game. How come nobody is mentioning this?

  • Scimarad #43 5 years ago

    I must say, everybody seem very well behaved in this thread! Are you sure you are all okay?

  • BartonFink #44 5 years ago

    The whole BD vs HD-DVD debate will eventually be all kinda irrelevant (hopefully). DD is the way forward. Is BD necessary for HD gaming? Well that's what Sony are trying to force us to accept. Who knows maybe it will but it will be nothing more than a convenience and is nothing that can't be gotten around by using compression, multiple discs and procedural synthesis. Necessary? probably not, Convenient? definately, Sony FUD oh yea.

  • Bates #45 5 years ago

    "I don't think Xbox owners are concerned, It's the Sony camp who every now and again decide they should twist the knife and remind us how our console will be redundant in a few years due to lack of storage... FUD, I think they call it."

    Hah! What utter bollocks! If you Xbots were so 'unconcerned' you wouldn't be desperately attempting to rubbish Blu-Ray at every turn because (boo hoo) you somehow think it makes your favourite console inferior. Talk about insecurity!

    Smokescreen with that bullshit about how "it's always those darn Sony fanboys that start it, I'm just reacting! It's all their fault!" all you want, but when I read these pages, I never see anyone claiming the higher capacity on the PS3 makes the 360 obsolete in any way(Save for the rare obvious troll like Captain nippon or whoever the fuck), just lots of Xbots whining about how this is what Sony fanboys claim. Are these fanboys invisible or something?

    Xbots are fine ones to talk about FUD when they're clearly the unquestioned MASTERS of it! :D

  • BartonFink #46 5 years ago

    Oh dear they have arrived ;)
    All we need now is smelly.
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 21:41

  • captainrentboy #47 5 years ago

    God,Bates seems to be very very excited.Why would 360 owners be concerned or insecure!??They would have all had a next gen console for 15 months before the PS3 finally arrives over here,and sadly the only thing new it's bringing with it is the means to read a disc which holds more info on it :/
    It would at least be something if this console everyone's been waiting an extra year for was actually running games that looked and played considerably better than anything 360 owners have had for months,but it doesn't.
    I just can't see the need for any console owner to be getting worked up about any of it.

  • Bill_Gates_Bitch #48 5 years ago

    @Bates:

    What? You dumb twat, $ony fangirls are always trying to spout blu-gay hype bullshit at every oportunity and try to start flamewars. Blu-gay is not necesary for gaming, it never was and it never will be. If you cant see that your either demented or under the control of Ken Kuntaraggis mind control ray.
    Edited by 1 at 29/09/06 @ 22:01

  • JediMasterMalik #49 5 years ago

    *sigh*

    How quickly this descended, oh well.

  • Bates #50 5 years ago

    lol @ Bill_Gates_Bitch, I like you :)

    "You're obviously so blinded by fanboy loyalty"

    9,997 9,998 9,999... 10,000 spoons! Now where did I leave that knife? :)

    "And naming no-names,"

    Chickenshit.

    Aaaaaanyway...

    /Reels bait back in :)

  • kangarootoo #51 5 years ago

    @Scimarad

    You see what you've done with your surprise and optimism. Once you say a thead isn't full of people talking bollox, like moths to a flame they appear. I'm so disppointed in you ;)

  • tiddles #52 5 years ago

    CAT FUD ->

  • Arwin #53 5 years ago

    DVD9 in the 360 means 7.4Gb, so yeah, games like PDZ do max it out already pretty much. That's not good, so early in the day.

    Also, what very few people know, I think, is that DVD9, or in other words, Dual Layer DVD, reads slower than Single Layer DVD. But for BluRay, it doesn't matter - it reads just as fast for single as for double layer. So DVD9 is actually slower than both SL and DL BluRay.

  • Krun #54 5 years ago

    How often have we heard this rubbish about games and movies converging.

    These days if they made space invaders we would have to have some stupid story to explain why and what it was about and cut scenes after each wave of aliens.

    When I watch a film I like that its all laid out for me and I just passively watch it.

    When I play a game I want to get on with the action and to hell with the plot.

    Most of the time the two are seperate entities. Play game win, get given next part of plot as reward, continue game. For me this ruins both the game and the story. The plot interupts the game and game interupts the plot. Give me one or the other.





  • SeesThroughAll #55 5 years ago

    I hope both consoles sell well, I hope Microsoft never dominates this market, and I hope people don't buy Moore's bullshit and more than Sony's. Because that is all it is: bullshit.

  • TardKommando #56 5 years ago


    So. Where's J.Allard these days?

    Zune.

  • some1 #57 5 years ago

    surprised no one commented that he 100% dodged the 'women and girls' games question and replaced the answer with a 'kids' games one

  • -TKF- #58 5 years ago

    Very disapointed you let him get away so easily with his BluRay bashing.

    1: It´s obvious that the games still look good on DL-DVD but it´s very very likely they would look even better on a HD medie.

    2: The 360 does not have a standard HD, that is not giving consumers the right to choose, that is forcing them to buy one.

  • belziah #59 5 years ago

    "insecure 360 owners in same old argument shocker!!!"

    lets face it, whether necessary or not, its here, get over it.
    Edited by 1 at 30/09/06 @ 08:38

  • SlackMaster #60 5 years ago

    I think that I'm a bit worried about the failure rate ot 360's as I know two of my mates that have had the red ring harware failures... I've had a couple of freezes which is apparently how my mates 360 began to die.

    I don't play it all the time so am worried that it'll die outside the warrenty and I'll be out of pocket. I think it that happens I'll trade my games and get a Wii until 360's hardware becomes a bit more reliable.

    I have to say tho that Blu Ray makes no difference for games... yes it has bigger storage medium but what's to stop games coming out on more than one disc... Ok you have to swap the disc over but only once so it's not a big deal or effort.

  • Yossarian #61 5 years ago

    "1: It´s obvious that the games still look good on DL-DVD but it´s very very likely they would look even better on a HD medie."

    siiiigh

  • Dizzy #62 5 years ago

    "I don't play it all the time so am worried that it'll die outside the warrenty and I'll be out of pocket."

    Warrenty in all European regions is - by law - two years FYI.

  • -TKF- #63 5 years ago

    Yoss, insigthfull post, keep it up

  • Les #64 5 years ago

    "I see Les is still defending all things Sony. Give it a rest, Les, it's boring."

    Dear morriss, I'm not defending all things Sony. As I've tried to explain time and again, it's silly feeling attached to a company, the so callled fanboyism. Fanboyism I think is a clever marketing strategy from the console manufacturers, fueled by the media. The only thing that explains the mud-slinging between the companies, which as far as I can tell you see in few other industries, is it being a deliberate means of trying to closely attach a certain core group to your product/brand. One of the best ways to form and mobilise a group of people is by creating an outside enemy. This is basic human psychology and has unfortunatly been used for causes far worse than console wars. This group of fanatics/fundamentalists will follow the brand blindly, will buy a way above the average number of games per console and will definitely not buy the games of your competitor. They're the ideal consumer: stupid and loyal.

    Being positive about aspects of a product doesn't turn you into a fanboy, as well as being critical does not mean you're a hater. Only in the mind of a fanboy it will, as fundamentalists have strayed from the path of logic and reason.

  • Yossarian #65 5 years ago

    "3) Because of 1) and 2), suddenly the Wii isn't in that competition anymore. After getting all excited at first, I can't find any compelling reason to buy one. I feel it's well out of the running, and as more and more people change their displays to LCD and Plasma ones I think it will look like the poor parent of the family. IMO, may I add."

    +1; my interest in the Wii has been plummeting steadily since it reached its peak at E3

  • Penguinzoot #66 5 years ago

    Les, some of what you say sounds very reasonable.

    But "fanboyism is a clever marketing strategy from console manufacturers?"

    - sorry dude, but thats just nuts. Just how on earth would they do that? Spike all their registered users coffee?

    Fanboyism dosn't come from the manufacturers at all, but from individual consumers themselves who for one reason or another become "brand loyal" to a blind degree. As you say, psychology.

    Console manufacturers know that a percentage of their own consumers are brand loyal and will seek to promote that sense of identity and exploit it if they can. But only up to a point. There is a point at which having an army of slavering fanboys identified with your product would be bad for your image, bad for the brand and ultimately bad for growth (the ulimate bottomline). So the manufacturers themselves will keep a respectable distance.

    "fueled by the media"

    Makes it sound like an organized and orchestrated campaign though. Although its more likely that school playgrounds, pub gardens and forums such these and other internet sites are responsible for any fuelling rather than the "media" per se.

    If there is any fuelling done by the conventional media, then maybe what they are doing is simply reporting and reflecting the way Console1 fans feel as opposed to Console2 fans(after doing the requisite journalistic investigation of course, i.e. logging on to a couple of forums to assess opinion), and NOT fuelling it themselves.

    It does not serve any purpose for the media to fuel fanboy wars - unless there is a deeper conspiracy, which I'm sure there ain't. Especially in these days of the intahweb, the fanboys can do any necessary fuelling themselves.

    EDIT: for clarity
    Edited by 1 at 30/09/06 @ 19:17

  • captainrentboy #67 5 years ago

    Was that it from Bates?What a poor showing,I thought he was going to blow us all away with some fantastic comments from the way he started,never mind,just a lil trolling to get himself all excited and possibly erect by the replies he gets and off he goes :(

  • Rambaldi #68 5 years ago

    @Ledillettante

    Words of pure wisdom my friend. I've always harbored doubts about the Wii. I got Steel Battalion for the Xbox and was blown away with the fact that there was a cool controller with it but the novelty soon wore off.

    Thumbsticks just....work!
    Edited by 1 at 30/09/06 @ 12:48

  • tiddles #69 5 years ago

    Peter Moore looks like an arrogant cock in that picture, and the mic looks a bead of sweat (or some fan boy juice).

    lol - I must confess, that's what it looked like to me too... It's funny, isn't it, however much you try and swallow it all, there's always a little bit that gets away. :)

  • Les #70 5 years ago

    "But "fanboyism is a clever marketing strategy from console manufacturers?" - sorry dude, but thats just nuts. Just how on earth would they do that? Spike all their registered users coffee?"

    Is it? Maybe you're right, but the constant mud-slinging at the competition, even by top management, surely doesn't help. I can't think of any other industry in which this appears on such a large scale. And all the articles on whichever video game site that you visit that mention "console war", "next-gen battle" and the word "fanboy" are to numerous to count. Those sensationalist stories generate a lot of traffic for said websites, for example through these kind of threads, and thus money from advertising.

    "rather than the "media" per se."
    Sorry, meant video game media, should have been more explicit.
    Edited by 1 at 30/09/06 @ 15:39

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #71 5 years ago

    So. Where's J.Allard these days?

    [link url=http://www.comingzune.com/
    ]http://www.comingzune.com/
    [/link]

    oh, bugger somebody already answered. Still, I like the strokey rabbit movie.

  • projectmayhem #72 5 years ago

    you heard him so. in order to have the optimal set up, buy a PC with a 250GB HDD and plug it into your 360.

    i dare you to 1) afford that easily, and 2) set-up your 360 and media center PC without needing online help.

  • ProdigyBE_OPM #73 5 years ago

    People are right that games don't "need" 50 gig to be great, but you have to know that BD 50 gig space makes it possible to put all their languages on one disk. Plus, PS3 is region free. So publishers can mass produce one version of their game, and by that have a far cheaper production cost. Not much if your game sells 50.000 copies, but a huge extra profit for all tripple A releases. Publishers won't drop MS and go for Sony, but its a big reason to make PS3 your main focus.

    And I don't get it, MS wil be able to do 1080p gfx. But no one asks the question: 1080p textures and cgi movies take WAY more space than 720p. That's hard when you have to stay in DVD9 limit.

    Don't get me wrong, right now my 360 is by far the most played console, but if PS3 hits the market and their promise that its as quiet as the new flat PS2 model proves to be true, its byebye noisy 360.

  • ProdigyBE_OPM #74 5 years ago

    People are right that games don't "need" 50 gig to be great, but you have to know that BD 50 gig space makes it possible to put all their languages on one disk. Plus, PS3 is region free. So publishers can mass produce one version of their game, and by that have a far cheaper production cost. Not much if your game sells 50.000 copies, but a huge extra profit for all tripple A releases. Publishers won't drop MS and go for Sony, but its a big reason to make PS3 your main focus.

    And I don't get it, MS wil be able to do 1080p gfx. But no one asks the question: 1080p textures and cgi movies take WAY more space than 720p. That's hard when you have to stay in DVD9 limit.

    Don't get me wrong, right now my 360 is by far the most played console, but if PS3 hits the market and their promise that its as quiet as the new flat PS2 model proves to be true, its byebye noisy 360.

  • ProdigyBE_OPM #75 5 years ago

    I wil take it out of storage to play some 360 exclusive games dough :)

  • kangarootoo #76 5 years ago

    "Fanboyism I think is a clever marketing strategy from the console manufacturers, fueled by the media"

    On the subject of fanboyism, I don't believe it is created by companies. Its simply the insecurity of childish people. Someone buys a console, its cost them a lot of cash, so they don't like anything that might make them feel they have made the wrong decision. Its not a media machine, its really not close to being that complex. Its just insecurity and has been around as long as people have been.

    "as fundamentalists have strayed from the path of logic and reason."

    I absolutely agree wit you on that point however.

  • Penguinzoot #77 5 years ago

    Les, TBH I think the corporate mud-slinging is taken far more seriously than it should be by the people on the outside looking in (gamers, fanboys, maybe the press), than it is by the protagonists themselves.

    The press have an obvious interest in sensationalizing stories and drawing up battle lines between competitors with macho imagery. Rivals positions are depicted as a "stance", product competition as a "battle" or "war" - and we've even seen plenty of that here at EG.

    But I doubt if you'll find either Phil Harrison or Peter Moore or any other suit in their kind of position losing any sleep over what is really rather polite and gentile one-upmanship conducted in the glare of the media spotlight.

    These guys are actually very careful NOT to actually rubbish the opposition - instead they damn with faint praise; they don't get personal - but they do concentrate on the product. Seems actually pretty polite to me.

    To us, on the outside looking in, it looks like pathetic sniping or bickering. But this is all grist to the business mill - I doubt the PR suits worry about it at all.

    And the console business is NOT the only area of business this happens in. You only have to read trade press from different business sectors to realise that - whether its Pig Farming Monthy* or Industrial Waste Weekly*. It happens everywhere in any form of human endeavour where the stakes are high, where people have a lot to gain, but especially a lot to lose.

    And don't forget these guys may also actually passionately believe that their own product is better than the competition (maybe hard to believe I know).

    These guys are professional PR suits. They haven't reached where they are without being able to throw a punch, and take a punch too. You just need to take the corporate mud-slinging with a pinch of salt.

    *completely fictional publications ;-)
    Edited by 1 at 30/09/06 @ 16:19

  • SlackMaster #78 5 years ago

    Why do people have a problem comprehending that it's possible to have multiple discs for one game if it exceeds the limitations of the disc capacity... Developers have done this for ages with games on the Saturn, PS1, PS2 and the DC so why can't they have multiple discs for 360 games?

    Having bigger storage capacity on your media isn't a good enough reason to ramp the cost of you're games console through the roof.

  • Les #79 5 years ago

    "Les, TBH I think the corporate mud-slinging is taken far more seriously than it should be by the people on the outside looking in (gamers, fanboys, maybe the press), than it is by the protagonists themselves."

    Totally agree, like you said, these guys are pros and it's nothing personal between them. I wouldn't be surprised if when they meet, they'd drink a beer together. So that they created fanboyism is too strong, like Kangarootoo says, it's probably caused by insecurity.

    But I think they are very aware about how serious some people take their comments, jabs, etc. And it seems like they play this out to their mutual advantage: The sensationalist headlines from the video game media generate a lot of attention for their industry and the games media themselves profit from it too. It's a win-win-win situation.

    In my experience, at least from a continental perspective, in other industries like finance, utilities, manufacturing, etc., taking shots at the competition is something that's rarely done. Because it's not something that makes you look good and the executives often form part of the same social networks.

  • DB2k #80 5 years ago

    I think one of the clear advantages of blueray Discs over DVD is not the capacity, but the spin rate which jsut doesnt appear to have been talked about. With Saint's Row struggling to stream content off the disc quick enough to prevent loading in the city, having a disc mechanism that can output data quicker is surely going to be an advantage.

  • secombe #81 5 years ago

    Codecs, Gigabytes, Flash Memory, DVD9, HDD, HD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray.

    All of that above crap yet if I want to play an Ice Hockey game I would still choose NHL '93 over absolutely anything that has been released since.

    I know the console is integral to the experience of playing games, but we seem to be missing the whole point here a bit. The DS has proved more than anything in the past several years that great games are great games regardless of fancy graphics and spec sheets. I hope the Wii continues this success because game development costs for these ultra-realistic formats will eventually leave us with a few big companies making all the games we play.

  • Dizzy #82 5 years ago

    "But no one asks the question: 1080p textures and cgi movies take WAY more space than 720p. That's hard when you have to stay in DVD9 limit. "

    Both consoles don't have enough memory to use super high textures at will. That only leaves us with movies. Indeed Bluray has a serious advantage if you want to have lots of CGI-HD movies.
    Edited by 1 at 30/09/06 @ 19:28

  • TheMoonRat #83 5 years ago

    It's always nice to have more. More memory is better, more processing power is better, more hard drive space is better, and more disc capacity would be better. All consoles have had some limitations in the past but they've never really been an issue because developers find a way around it. They always have an always will. I'm sure if MS could magically make all their consoles play HD-DVD higher capacity discs they would; developers WOULD find a way to make use of the space.... less compression on the data, more languages - hell, might mean Squinix would release a game that would allow 50/60hz switching!!

    But its not the end of the world either way.

    SlackMaster: think of GTA... would you like to swap DVD's each time you changed from one area of town to another... or when you wanted to change a radio station etc.? Sometimes a disc swapping game isn't wanted :)

    But yeah. Developers. Smart. Trust them

  • Les #84 5 years ago

    "Now with Blu-ray you could make a game that's much bigger than that even. But no such game currently exists, nor is there any such game in the pipeline."

    With the danger of sounding like a broken record: Of course such a game doesn't exist currently, because there's no game device available currently that supports the BluRay format. As for PS3 games in development, the guys from R:FoM and Lair have both indicated they've already breached the DVD9 limits. R:FoM would, in its current form (according to the developer, maybe he's a big fat liar) take up over 20gb and thus 3 DVDs. Whether or not that extra space is put to good use is something we can only tell once the games have been released.

    I totally agree with you that games don't need bigger disks per se, but like I've said many, many, many times before, give developers that extra space and they'll put it to good use, they've always done that and I've got convidence that they will keep on doing that. I'd rather have developers quickly filling up gigabytes than them having to spend some of their time on thinking how to keep the game as small in size as possible.

    "Is the remote possibilty of 1 or 2 such a fantasy games existing enough to warrant the 360 costing an extra £100+ more and coming out 1 year later?"
    The fact that it'll cost extra money will be of course a relevant factor but I don't think anyone would have cared if the 360 had been released a year later. It's not as if you need a next-gen machine, especially not before it's released (I'm still not convinced I'll need one to be honest), however much the hardware companies try to convince us we do. Consumer technology has almost always been a push rather than a pull market. Look at your own gaming experience: games have certainly become better and more sophisticated over time, but has the joy you get out of them grown as well?
    Edited by 1 at 01/10/06 @ 08:00

  • Ihya #85 5 years ago

    I am looking forward to when the PS3 comes out, if nothing else the bullshit to truth ratio will improve.

  • Les #86 5 years ago

    "It's true that developers have put technology to good use, It's also true that they have always worked within limitations of technology"
    Yes, and they will continue to do that, forever. BluRay itself is also a limited technology, just less limited than DVD.

    "Likewise, I don't think anyone would of cared if PS3 had released 6 months earlier without Blu-ray"
    Why the fascination with consoles coming to market as soon as possible? The vast majority of people wouldn't have cared if the next gen had started a year or more from now and are even less concerned with what's in the actual box. They are perfectly happy with their xbox, ps2 and gamecube. And probably the only reason the hardcore care is because they've been fed pretty screenshots and footage for the last two or so years. It's a push market, next gen is 'forced' on us, rather than that we ask for it.

    "They would still look the same and deliver the same gaming experience"
    It's simply not true that Resistance and Lair would have been the same. They might not be worse but they would certainly be different. The designers would have made different choices, because they would have been working with a different console configuration. You can't compare this with a port, like Splinter Cell on PS2. It might look close to the Xbox version but they had a clear objective for what to achieve. Had it been designed first for PS2 it would have been a different game. Is it so hard to accept that BluRay will offer different (not necessarily better) possibilities? Whether or not you think the extra cost justifies this is something totally different.

  • Rambaldi #87 5 years ago

    I'm amazed that you're both discussing BluRay in context with games! It's a movie format first and foremost because it's only movies that will, 90% percent of the time, need the extra space when rendered in HD wheras 90% of games will not (as the first year of 360 has gloriously exemplified).

    Sony throw us a few quips about how it's central to next-gen gameplay and we all suddenly forget it's a trojan horse in a next gen movie storage format war. They need us to believe it becase they're relying on gamers and the PS brand to spearhead the delivery of BluRay into the home.

    In that respect, they're using us, plain and simple.

    If you don't believe me look at Sony's well publicised long term game delivery strategy: download only in an effort to kill the second hand market. Once (if) BluRay becomes established via the PS brand we'll see a move away from it as a games medium.

    None of this is 'evil': it makes bloody good business sense. The least we can do as 'savvy' consumers however is see through it and make the decision that's best for us not the one that's best for 'gaming'.
    Edited by 1 at 01/10/06 @ 17:21

  • toy_brain #88 5 years ago

    If console history has tought us one thing, its that going next-gen while keeping with an old-gen storage medium can seriously cripple your console's prospects.
    Look at the N64 and how it lost Square's support because it stuck with carts, look at the Dreamcast and how Shenmue 2 spilled over onto 3 disks (along with a few other 2-disk games - the consoles life was probably too short to see if GDROM's seriously crippled it), and look at the GC and how Eternal Darkness had to be crammed onto a single disk which screwed the FMV and audio quality, and saw a number of games have bonus features cut, or not be released at all, due to the constraints of the mini-DVD's.
    This isnt rocket science, its just the common-sense law of computing. Processors get faster, games get bigger. Always have done, always will do.


    Blegh. I had a bunch more stuff typed out to post but...... I started feeling like a total troll so I'm not going to.
    Hey, I like my 360 y'know. Its a decent bit of kit and has some really nice games on it, I'm just saying.... Don't be shortsighted people. Think 'futureproofing'.

  • BartonFink #89 5 years ago

    I think Rambaldi and Wonga have probably summed all up nicely.

  • superchunkfunk #90 5 years ago

    RESISTANCE 20+ GIGs a hollow statement

    When 1up.com interviewed them at TGS, the resistance folks admitted that they were putting multiple lnguage versions on one disk. So basically any language specific images, text, audio or video files were replicated for each version of the game. I would assume other developers will follow suit. Normally they put those on seperate discs, but this makes distribution easier.

    Mystery solved.

    (you can check the latest video podcast for the footage)

  • Rambaldi #91 5 years ago

    @toybrain

    "Look at the N64 and how it lost Square's support because it stuck with carts, look at the Dreamcast and how Shenmue 2 spilled over onto 3 disks "

    If memory serves, the N64 was and still is regarded as a classic console whose success was based on the quality of it's titles not the absence of a CD drive. The Dreamcast too is often complemented as a worthy machine only let down by poor management on Sega's part. Perhaps some of the poor decisions that they made included choice of storage format, but there were many others I'm sure. To me this sounds like the old wives tale: console add-ons will be the death of it / never launch globally / never have more than one design. All urban myths proved wrong in the last year. Who knows, maybe new generation = new storage medium will be another?

    I guess at the end of the day it's the general pulic that will decide and decide on the basis of it being a new movie (not game) storage format (because the next-gen storage war is too big a fight simply to be fought on the battlegrounds of consoles). Will they see the reason in either HDDVD or Bluray when DVD serves the vast majority of them perfectly well? Casettes caught on becuse they brought vast advantages over LPs. CDs caught on because they brought vast advantages over casettes, DVDs over VHS and so on. Indeed, if I can adopt your own argument for a moment: storage history teaches us one thing - if the advantages aren't great and clear cut, it won't catch on enough to make it commercially sustainable (Betamax, MiniDisc, UMD - all Sony formats interestingly). Will the public go for a new medium that physicaly looks the same as the old one and only offers benefits to those with HDTV's and either HDDVD or BluRay players? On the subject of which: how willing will the already cautious and dubious public be to get involved in the middle of a fist-fight where next-gen storage is not only trying to prove it's worth against DVD, but also prove it against a simlar opponent? Will people be willing to spend a serious amount of money on something that could be a 'losing format' (either to it's direct competitor or worse still, to DVD).

    Time will tell.

    Personaly I'm looking forward to next-gen movie storage, but then I'm a techno-geek who can happily justify spending £2500 on the equipment needed. Not a philosophy (I suspect) common enough amongst the general public to start a real revolution.
    Edited by 3 at 01/10/06 @ 19:57

  • Lex_Luthor #92 5 years ago

    "I think DVD9 will just scrape it, 1 or 2 games might be multi-disk. It's possible for those games to be better than Blu-ray games, Like Resident Evil 4 on the gamecube was hailed as the best action game of last generation.. and Xbox and PS2 had shitloads of action games on higher capacity disk."

    Um... Resident Evil 4 was probably the best 'action' game of this generation, true, but when it was released on the PS2(With it's greater storage capacity) it also had quite a lot of additional content added into it. If not for the console's more limited capabilities affecting the visuals and number of enemies, it would easily have been a better version than the Gamecube one. This shows greater storage capacity can be beneficial when put to the proper use.

  • Les #93 5 years ago

    I think we must agree we disagree.

    "wheras 90% of games will not (as the first year of 360 has gloriously exemplified)"
    But this unbelievably often used but rubbish argument I cannot let pass. Because this proves absolutely nothing about how BluRay will be used. The 360, surprise, surprise, has no BluRay drive, so developers design all their games with the DVD9 storage limit in mind. Please vow to never use this logically incosistent argument ever again and I'll quit on this topic. Time and PS3 first party games will tell.

  • Zuiyo #94 5 years ago

    Please. It's "Piñata". "Pinata" means nothing.

    If you care enough about language to write "über" with the two little dots above the u then write "piñata" with an eñe.

    Or you will sound like the redneck Americans who started writing "pinata" in the first place.

  • Rambaldi #95 5 years ago

    Sorry Les, we shall have to agree to dsagree, becsause it's an argument that is supported on much broader fronts than simply the last 12 months of the 360. The last 5 years (or more) of PC HD gaming has proved that even the most luxurious and expansive games have not yet required more than a single DVD9. Yes, decompression and installation has been necessary, but our consoles have HDs too!

    I've nothing against new technology when it offers me something significantly new and improved or solves problems that exist with current solutions. I just don't see any evidence to support those criteria in next-gen gaming storage (although I'm all for it being used for films) especially when that new technology is going to push hardware prices up as much as it has done with the PS3.

    I can't fit a full HD movie on a DVD. I can't think of a full HD game that's ever needed more than a DVD. That's not so hard to fathom, surely?

    I do accept your point of view and were the appearance of multi-DVD disc games much, much more frequent I would probably share it.

    You have a fair point that extra space will afford designers extra possibilities, but I've yet to see anything truly ingenious done with all that exra processing power (surely a much greater influence on creativity and innovation) so forgive me if I'm a little cynical on that point! It's an old business phrase: never throw money at a problem. Perhaps the same could be said for space on a disk!? Designeres usually produce their best work when working with restrictions and perhaps a lassez-faire approach to space would have a poor knock-on effect to other areas of the design process, like making the code as efficient as possible. Just a thought.

    Anyhoo, I bow to you sir and take my leave.

    Albeit a bit crammed on there and oh-so 'last-gen', Oblivion beckons ;)

  • toy_brain #96 5 years ago

    "If memory serves, the N64 was and still is regarded as a classic console whose success was based on the quality of it's titles not the absence of a CD drive."

    It wasnt a success. It was Nintendo's first major console failure and what caused them to go from 1st place with the SNES, to eventually last place (well, that's debatable) with the GC.
    Yes there were some absolutely classic games for it, but the limitations (and cost) of the cartridge format, along with a general push towards a more cinematic gaming experience (y'know, full voice-acting, FMV, CD quality audio) turned a lot of gamers and developers away.

    It has often been said that Sony's PSone didnt 'win' that console generation, it was handed the victory thanks to Sega and Nintendo messing up so badly.

    As for your points about the Dreamcast... yea, fair enough.

  • BartonFink #97 5 years ago

    Have to agree with Rambaldi once more Les.

    I just don't think your argument holds water for games development Bluray will be little more than a convenience for developers and publishers. It's only a storage format afterall, a transport medium, nothing more nothing less. Will it make games better nope that will be the job of the machine. The other consideration is cost just how much high definition content can a development house stick into a game before it starts becoming less than economically viable. The other thing to consider is taking stuff off a disc is less than efficient there are better ways of doing it and if anything bluray may make developers a little lazy. Just a couple of thoughts.

    Bluray != next gen gaming no matter how much Sony might want you to think it.

  • Xerx3s #98 5 years ago

    What else is he going to do??? If pong, WOW and phoenix wright are all games then what kind of magic new narrative is he going to create?

    A game that makes the choices for you! Oh, a bit like real life then.

  • Redeye #99 5 years ago

    And all this whilst forgetting that one of the best games *ever* made only needed 32k.

    *wanders back off to old gamers home muttering about 'bloody cut-scenes'*

  • Les #100 5 years ago

    "becsause it's an argument that is supported on much broader fronts than simply the last 12 months of the 360. The last 5 years (or more) of PC HD gaming has proved that even the most luxurious and expansive games have not yet required more than a single DVD9. Yes, decompression and installation has been necessary, but our consoles have HDs too!"

    Again, for the PC argument the same goes as for the "look-at-360" argument. It doesn't prove BluRay will not offer new posibilities, which actually might enhance gameplay. I know BluRay is primarily a movie format, so was DVD and CD was primarily developed for music, yet they certainly helped to enhance games. Of course you can do very nice things with compression, but compression always comes at a cost: either a compromise to data quality or, with lossles compression, processing power.

    I don't see why making use of extra disk space would make a developer lazy. Instead of making nice compression routines or whatever, they can focus on other aspects of the game. These guys work with tight deadlines, there's never enough time to do everything perfect. I agree the storage medium is but one part of the machine but with consoles especially, all parts together make the machine and changing just a single part will have an impact on its overall capabilities. No, BluRay alone isn't next gen gaming, but it's an integral part of next-gen gaming on PS3 that I'm sure will have a positive impact on the games, no matter how hard MS is trying to make us believe otherwise... ;)

  • Dizzy #101 5 years ago

    Bluray for games is a non issue this generation. Most developers do not have the manpower to fill up a Bluray drive with game assets and if they say they will, they are just lying. Only music/sound, copies of assets for better loading and movies will fill up that disk. Better game? Who knows...

    The only real use developers have for more storage if they generate all their assets procedural and then store them on a Bluray. This might (and will) probably happen so some PS3 games might outdo a DVD in this aspect. Then again... the speed of current machines will certainly come close to generating these assets in realtime instead of storing them. Next-next generation Bluray or any other next-gen storage format for gaming might totally be unnessecary because CPU speed is always better than storage. Same happened to compression... in the beginning compressing was slow because decoding with CPU was slow. So people did not want compressed files... now decompressing is much quicker than reading from disk uncompressed so bigger disk storage requirements actually went down when CPU speed increased. The same will happen with game assets next few years. Except of course for movies... if you like movies in your game, Bluray is the way to go.

    >Of course you can do very nice things with compression, but compression always comes at a cost

    So les.. *not* using compression makes everything SLOWER and is a waste of storage space.
    Edited by 4 at 02/10/06 @ 09:25

  • Rash' #102 5 years ago

    The fact that Moore fails to respond to final question on the relavence of Blu-ray to gaming surely highlights the obvious. The question can't be answered at this early a stage or the advanages are not for Moore to point out. Either way it is my opinion that those against the format are seriously lacking ambition for the future of gaming: Surely it is more advantageous to work with a format that offers posibilities, than to work with one that offers none?

  • jiveguy #103 5 years ago

    I think we'll just have to wait and see how this all pans out before making any bold claims. Outside of one or two fmv obsessed Japanese blokes I've yet to hear any rumblings about the lack of space on 360 discs after 10 months. At the same time I've yet to hear anything about blu-ray discs making games better except from sony. At the end of the day discs are just somewhere to stuff bits and bytes. If at some point down the road the capacity of the 360 disc is severely hndering development MS have to option to up the HDD size and allow installations to it or they could use the hd-dvd drive. Or, god forbid, use multitple discs. Sony, with blu-ray, are just putting themselves in a position that makes the transition to games that require more capacity easier. Saying all that though, I really don't think anyone who just wants to play games is going care.

  • Rash' #104 5 years ago

    jiveguy,

    I don't believe the question is whether the capacity of DVD 9 is limiting, rather what are the advantages offered by Blu-ray to gaming. There must be some otherwise Moore would have answered to the contrary (with his usual sarcastic witt). The question then would be how relavent are those advantages? You are right to suggest time as the governing factor in this argument.

  • Yossarian #105 5 years ago

    how can a storage medium have a tangible effect on the games it stores? the only thing I can think of is read speeds being better and keeping load times down, but from what I've heard Blu-Ray is actually a little slower (not to mention the rumours that PS3 memory bandwidth is shitty). jiveguy is absolutely on the money

    Sony have done a good PR job if people are even wondering about this

  • #106 5 years ago

    From the link:

    "The original MechAssualt was 3.42 gigabytes, but MechAssualt 2 was only 2.29, a nearly 33% reduction in size. Yet MechAssualt II is considered a better looking game. Grand Theft Auto III is a paltry 733 megabytes, compared to Grand Theft Auto Vice City's still paltry 1.2 gigs. Silent Hill 2 clocked in at 4.88 gigs. It's sequel, Silent Hill 4, is only 3.16 gigabytes.

    In the case of Silent Hill, the original game is 53% larger than its equally complex sequel, which runs contrary to the idea that games will grow larger over time.

    The first Prince of Persia occupied 2.44 gigs, the second 2.88, an increase of only 18%. Knights of the Old Republic went from 3.65 gigs in the first installment to 3.99 gigs in the second, a 9% increase. The Splinter Cell series went from 3.71 gigs in the first to 3.05 gigs in Pandora's Tomorrow, a reduction of 18% (though it should be noted that Chaos Theory, after switching development houses, ballooned into one of the largest games on the Xbox at 5.62 gigabytes)."

    [link url=http://www.gamesfi rst.com/?id=1132
    ]http://www.gamesfi rst.com/?id=1132
    [/link]

    Thought GTA: Vice City was much larger than 1.2 gigs...

  • Les #107 5 years ago

    "I don't believe the question is whether the capacity of DVD 9 is limiting, rather what are the advantages offered by Blu-ray to gaming."

    Exactly. 360 will have no problem with the DVD9 medium and I'd be really amazed if MS did decide to make HD-DVD available for game content. Developers will just have more storage space available with BluRay and it will allow them to do some things different (and that doesn't necessarily mean better, I'm well aware of that).

    Like the developers of Lair said: "The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data. We are using every ounce of that due to streaming of our textures. Sure you could chop them all down to tiny sizes and we would fit, but then again, it would not be the same game. In addition to all the textures and geometry, we also do have video on the disc, and all of that is in native 1080p resolution. Thanks to Blu-Ray we don't need to worry about that and can still fit the whole game on a single disk."

    Maybe they're big fat liars (they're hardly impartial) but at least they're not Sony and they are the best source of information currently on potential benefits of bigger storage space, rather than theoretical discussions.

  • Dizzy #108 5 years ago

    >The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data

    You do understand that apparently a single level in Lair - supposedly - contains more game assets that the whole World of Warcraft world. Who made all those? I guess the 1000 cheapo Chinese kids. It is just bullshit dude... don't believe the hype.

  • Rambaldi #109 5 years ago

    From Mr. T's Link:

    "Undoubtedly, games will grow. However, technology designed to keep them small and compact will grow as well. In many ways, the debate over Microsoft's handling of the DVD9 and HDDVD formats is simply a matter of a red herring. People see it and worry about it, but there is little data to suggest there will actually be a problem with it"

    "The PS3 will be able to store more data with their blu-ray discs, but that won't necessarily mean that they'll be any less limited in their creativity. It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing"


    I suggest the pro-bluray camp read the entirte article. Most interesting and scientific in it's approach.
    Edited by 1 at 02/10/06 @ 10:45

  • Les #110 5 years ago

    "It is just bullshit dude... don't believe the hype."

    I'm no techy so I can't validate if what the guy is saying is true. But both he and Ted Price from R:FoM have indicated that just their level data takes up huge amounts of space. For Lair a single level over 4gb, the level data of R:FoM takes up around 12gb. Yeah they might be lying, they can be very bad and sloppy developers, etc., etc. But both these companies are apparently independant of Sony (both stated so explicitly in the interviews, but then again, they might be lying), so I have no reason currently not to trust what they state. I'm cynical but not that cynical yet.

  • Dizzy #111 5 years ago

    >I'm no techy so I can't validate if what the guy is saying is true

    I am and I am saying they are lying or bending the truth a lot.

    Just use common sense... PC games have been using lots of high res textures and pretty complex models. Usually they even include LOD for different hardware configurations. So here comes this developer saying that ONE level in their game is the same size as World of Warcraft (asset wise). Seems logical? Even if it was true... how long would they have to work on a level? Making 12GB of assets doesn't come free.

    A "level" probably includes movies and shitloads of speech in different languages. Or they repeat all assets a few times to increase loading/streaming times. This last thing *could* be a feature that is necessary for the level to stream continuously and it could indeed indicate that this cannot be done without Bluray. Then again it might also be an indication that Bluray is too slow to stream "normal" levels.

    Like I said before.. it *is* possible to do what they claim by letting a computer generate all assets for a level and then store that on Bluray. As far as I know... it has not been done yet.

    Anyway... my last post.. like some people have said. Time will tell. The case for Bluray for games certainly is not very clear... but in a few years time we will know if developers have been able to use that space for gameplay enhancements. Bigger certainly doesn't hurt so in the end - if you are willing to pay extra - the Bluray in the PS3 is not a bad thing (even if HD-DVD wins).
    Edited by 3 at 02/10/06 @ 11:07

  • Pooley #112 5 years ago

    I'm quite interested in the BluRay drive, for one small reason; it supports SACD playback.

    I'm not sure how the audio outputs are configured, i.e. whether they'll be analogue or be provided via a digital out, but SACD playback has been something which I've been looking to get into now that I have a few hybrid CD/SACD discs.

    I hope this capability doesn't disappear before launch. It hasn't disappeared already has it?

    My thought therefore is that I'll have a new games console, with hidef movie support, and SACD playback - all in one box. Neat. Now just need to find that elusive affordable 1080p TV in time for next April...

  • Garulon #113 5 years ago

    "Downloadable content for 360 is all nice and cool, but if a large percentage of your userbase can't get it without an expensive upgrade, well... "

    You can download content onto a Memory Unit. And I think the word "expensive" shouldn't be used by a fanboi of a £425 console, especially when comparing it to a £200 one that is technically equivalent.
    Edited by 1 at 02/10/06 @ 12:21

  • Les #114 5 years ago

    “We are discussing Blu-ray vs DVD9, Because people need to drive Sony's PR agenda that Blu-ray is essential for games and that the 360 will be defunct in a few years without it.”

    No, we (or at least I) weren’t. We were discussing whether BluRay might offer extra possibilities for game development. Never said it was essential or that the 360 will be defunct without it, on the contrary. Somehow some people just can’t see that BluRay having advantages versus DVD9 being too small are two totally different issues. To put it into an equation (BluRay = good) /= (DVD9 = bad).

    “And I think the word "expensive" shouldn't be used by a fanboi of a £425 console, especially when comparing it to a £200 one that is technically equivalent.”

    Wow, another not so constructive post of the tech-champion of the xbox fanboy posse…
    Edited by 1 at 02/10/06 @ 12:55

  • Garulon #115 5 years ago

    "Wow, another not so constructive post of the tech-champion of the xbox fanboy posse…"

    As opposed to your FACTUALLY INCORRECT one? What's the deal with that anyway? Are you too stupid to look up facts or were you just lying to try to make the 360 look worse?

    "Somehow some people just can’t see that BluRay having advantages versus DVD9 being too small are two totally different issues."

    But you can't just claim BluRay "has advantages" - you have to state what those advantages ARE. Mass storage is mass storage - if mass storage device A is big enough for the task and faster than mass storage device B, what POSSIBLE advantage could mass storage device B have?

  • Les #116 5 years ago

    "As opposed to your FACTUALLY INCORRECT one? What's the deal with that anyway? Are you too stupid to look up facts or were you just lying to try to make the 360 look worse?"

    And what exactly is factually incorrect? I'm not trying to make the 360 look worse, unlike you, I'm not into the childish "my console is better than your console" debate. For some reason, you see everything potentially positive about PS3 as a threat to 360 and I really wonder why.

  • BartonFink #117 5 years ago

    Yup Les is dead right if you are gonna say someone is factually incorrect at least back it up with the facts.
    However he's right about the rest of it Les.
    Edited by 1 at 02/10/06 @ 13:56

  • Garulon #118 5 years ago

    "And what exactly is factually incorrect?"

    you stated a hard disk is required to download content. FACTUALLY INCORRECT. You can download content to a Memory Unit. About three seconds worth of Googling would have illuminated you to this. I repeat, were you lying deliberately or just too stupid to understand what you were burbling about?

    " I'm not trying to make the 360 look worse, unlike you, I'm not into the childish "my console is better than your console" debate."

    Actually, you _are_ trying to make the 360 look worse, and you're using lies to do it. I'm just _correcting_ your lies and suddenly I'M doing the console wars thing? That's interesting. Which of us was lying about the 360's abilities? Which of us was making vague COMPLETELY unsubstantied claims about BluRay having "advantages"? Could you point to me making claims about 360's technical superority over the PS3 anywhere, ANYWHERE?

  • -TKF- #119 5 years ago

    The best arguments i have seen anyone defending the 360 DVD format is:

    "360 games don´t need more space"

    No shit motherfuckers, how would you fit more on the discs?

    If the 360 had a CD-ROM drive the same arguments would be made, awesome.

  • Garulon #120 5 years ago

    "If the 360 had a CD-ROM drive the same arguments would be made, awesome. "

    And if the PS3 had a standard DVD ROM there'd be no argument in the first place, would there? Sony shoves an unneeded, slow, unproven format down your fat fanboi throats, makes you pay through the nose for the privilidge, and not only do you thank them, you bitch about Microsoft not doing the same thing. WTF?

  • BartonFink #121 5 years ago

    So since we are still on the subject (i.e. off topic completely) would it be have been better if the PS3 launched with a DVD drive at the same price as a 360 premium at around the same time? Bluray has delayed and overinflated the price of the console.
    I know which I would have preferred and in all honesty it would have been game over for MS if that had happened.
    There is one simple reason it's being included Sony want it to drive the sales of Bluray movies and their Bluray players and in turn their HD TVs they have a massive vested interest in the format. I can't blame them really. But their line that it's necessary for HD gaming is clearly bullshine.
    Does it have it's advantages? Of course it does.

  • Garulon #122 5 years ago

    "would it be have been better if the PS3 launched with a DVD drive at the same price as a 360 premium at around the same time? Bluray has delayed and overinflated the price of the console. "

    It would have cause MS serious, SERIOUS problems. They would still have made a case for the 360 based on Live, but it would have relegated the 360 to second place pretty much out the gate.

    It would have been great for the Playstation brand. It wouldn't have done anything for BluRry though, and I refuse to believe the PS3's delays are down to BluRry alone.

    There's so much stuff that's not ready - developers still haven't got 1.0 kit and Sony haven't got any serious online strategy of any kind, and just slapping in a stock GPU at the last minute design-wise speaks of total disarray. I think Sony just weren't ready - they're not ready NOW, let alone 2005 - and the 360 launch forced their hand.

  • Les #123 5 years ago

    "you stated a hard disk is required to download content. FACTUALLY INCORRECT. You can download content to a Memory Unit"

    OK, that's a valid point. How big are those memory units by the way and do they come for free with the Core system? And is it a cost effective way of storing your downloads?

    "Actually, you _are_ trying to make the 360 look worse, and you're using lies to do it."

    I was being critical about mr. Moore's statements. I didn't mention the memory card because I don't think this to be a cost effective medium to store downloadable game content on. I've got no clue about the size of Xbox Live download files but it's being mentioned in posts that these can be quite big. If I was mistaken and there are cheap memory cards available to cost effectively store the downloadable content, I was wrong but that's totally different from lying.

  • Garulon #124 5 years ago

    "OK, that's a valid point. How big are those memory units by the way and do they come for free with the Core system? And is it a cost effective way of storing your downloads? "

    Nope, they cost about 20 quid each. As to their cost effectiveness, HTF do you define that? Is a 60GB HDD cost effective to someone that never connects their PS3 to the Internet? What about someone that only downloads one Arcade game?

    "I didn't mention the memory card because I don't think this to be a cost effective medium to store downloadable game content on. "

    Bullshit. You said (and I quote) You NEEDED to buy the hard disk to download content. This is incorrect. you either (a) didn't know (which means you're a poor choice of person to decide what is and what isn't a valid method of providing mass storage to a games console) or (b) knew and lied

    "but it's being mentioned in posts that these can be quite big."

    There's different kinds of "downloadable content" - music videos and demos don't fit, Arcade games fit just fine, some extra content for games fits, others don't.

    "If I was mistaken and there are cheap memory cards available to cost effectively store the downloadable content, I was wrong but that's totally different from lying."

    Are you too stupid to remember what you posted or just trying to wriggle out of an argument you've already lost? Do you need your own posts spoon-fed back to you like some kind of retarded child?

  • Les #125 5 years ago

    Here's my original post:

    ""HDDs are becoming bigger and the ability to store things"

    If HDDs are so important, why not include one in every 360? Doesn't sound to logical to me. Maybe for Xbox they were too soon and cost was too high but if Live is such an integral part of the 360 experience, a version without HD is kind of a joke. You lure people in with what seems like a cheap and good deal but before they know it, to really enjoy it they've got to buy all kind of peripherals that make it way more expensive in the end than the full version. Downloadable content for 360 is all nice and cool, but if a large percentage of your userbase can't get it without an expensive upgrade, well..."

    As you can clearly see I was critical on mr. Moore's statement about the importance of HDD for storage and the decision of not including it in 360. Argument still holds. Doesn't make the 360 look bad, because there's a version with a HDD with which you can enjoy the wonderful Xbox Live in its full glory. I think the decision to bring out multiple versions of a console is a very bad idea and I blame Sony as much for it as I do MS.

    Now if you can just stop your wining and cursing everytime you suspect someone is slagging your precious 360 and stop gloating everytime you're able to comment on PS3's many shortcommings, maybe we can have a mature debate. Let go of your xbox fundamentalism and return to the path of reason. It'll probably make you feel better too.

  • Rambaldi #126 5 years ago

    @Garulon

    "I refuse to believe the PS3's delays are down to BluRry alone"

    Sony themsleves have clearly stated that production delays have been as a direct result of a shortage in the blue diodes needed for the BluRay player:

    "In an official statement, Sony said the decision to revise the launch date was taken following "the delay in the mass production schedule of the blue laser diode within the Sony Group, thus affecting the timely procurement of key components to be utilised in PlayStation 3." - EG Sept 06

    Their console could have launched much sooner and not missed a second European next-gen christmas were it not for their desire to dominate the next-gen movie format war.
    Edited by 2 at 02/10/06 @ 18:12

  • Bates #127 5 years ago

    lol, Garulon = most bitter fanboy ever! What a twat!