Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21

By Eurogamer staff Published 28 December, 2008

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Welcome to the third instalment in Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008! Make sure to check out 50-41 and 40-31 for additional opportunities to swear at us, and remember, we know X is not better than Y. Each travesty is best explained by the Editor's blog detailing the setup. If you want to a straight list of what's better than what, which makes sense, you're better off with the Eurogamer Readers' Top 50 Games of 2008, to which thousands contributed. Thanks!

30. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

Konami / Kojima Productions / PS3

Rich Leadbetter: I like to play games, not watch them, and this game is the worst yet for making you sit down and watch an impenetrable and dare I say it tedious plot play out. The tech's brilliant, the gameplay can be superb - but surely there has to be a better way of combining gameplay and narrative? Bottom line: I skipped the cut-scenes, totally lost track of what was going on, and lost interest completely after Act 2.

Kieron Gillen: I spent days begging Tom to let me re-review this after the furore around Oli's review lead to that bulging 2000-posts thread. Because those people seemed to think that Oli's review was somehow negative. They were clearly confused, and I wanted to make it totally clear what a negative review actually looks like. Tom decided it probably wasn't wise. Much like forty-two hour cut-scenes. Remember: Just because it's carefully constructed art made by one of videogames' true auteurs, doesn't mean that it can't be full of s***.

Christian Donlan: My favourite moment was completing the entire film noir section wearing an oil drum. Had to take it off for the final boss, sadly.

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 1

Simon Parkin: Nobody's interested in the middle ground when it comes to polarising videogames. When it comes to MGS4 this is a shame because there is just as much of merit in this experience as there is to spoil it. In his fine, thoughtful review for Eurogamer, Oli nailed this tension with skill and eloquence. That so many readers were unable to parse his thoughts, to appreciate the nuance and contradictions in the experience suggests that Kojima's series primarily appeals to immature gamers. Perhaps that's natural for a game born of Hollywood bombast, one that requires you to swallow its spectacle wholesale before being allowed to investigate its systems. Still, long live the middle ground: this is a game that has much to teach and much to learn, and we're all the poorer if it manages neither.

Oli Welsh: Most awkward moment of 2008: realising that Hideo Kojima was stood behind me while I was taking advantage of one of MGS4's interminable cut-scenes to check emails on my phone. Now he, along with most of the rest of the world, thinks I hate Metal Gear Solid 4, but they're all wrong. I love it. Deranged, flawed, insanely ambitious, meticulously detailed, ridiculous, clever, sexy, self-aware: I'm profoundly glad that multi-million-dollar lunatic labours of love like this get made, for all that it occasionally drove me spare. There were many better games released this year, but for my money none of them, save Lich King, contain so many great moments.

29. Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney

Capcom / DS

Kristan Reed: OBJECTION! Actually, that's not true. I just wanted to be the only person obvious enough to throw that line in there. I love Ace Attorney games to bits. Everyone should play them.

Keza MacDonald: The speed with which Prosecutor Klavier Gavin replaced Edgeworth in my affections has me slightly concerned. Achtung, baby.

John Walker: I just want to type, "Oh happy day!" each time anyone asks me to write about an Ace Attorney game. Over and over. I was tentative about this one, concerned that it was going to that awkward place where it's the same idea with new characters. I never get past those. I care about the original cast! Fortunately, Apollo Justice was just a bluff. Despite playing as Justice, this is totally a Phoenix Wright game; the story is primarily about him. And it's just as great as the previous three. Sadly it's just as flawed as the previous three, with the same frustrations of illogical court puzzles. But it's incredibly hard to care about that when you're laughing so much. This is a game that contains the line, "My panties are in extra-dimensional space. Anything can fit in there." I loved it. It made me so happy. (But I'm still furious that it never mentions Maya or Pearly. Maya! Pearly! Are you okay?!)

28. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3

KOEI / Atlus / PS2

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 2

Simon Parkin: Atlus is at the forefront of JRPG innovation even though its inventiveness with the form is mainly characterised by the absorbing of elements from other genres. Persona 3 is, in many ways, a Japanese Bully, the structure of the school day providing the form and order into which the drama slots. The social sim elements of the game and Pokémon-esque collecting and breeding of the titular Personas add depth and complexity to its more traditional dungeon crawling. The only drawback to buying the game now is the presence of its sequel, released in America this month, which builds upon and perfects almost all of its innovations.

Rob Fahey: The best JRPG of the year, bar none. Fresh, innovative and stylish, it feels like a genuine departure from what we've played before in this genre - and it manages all of this on the humble PS2.

27. Chrono Trigger DS

Square Enix / DS

Rob Fahey: Yeah, okay - Chrono Trigger is technically the best JRPG of the year, not Persona 3. Assuming that the year in question is 1995, of course.

John Walker: Wow, I should really get around to playing this.

Simon Parkin: While nostalgia is part of the aesthetic, through both design and circumstance, you needn't have played the Super Nintendo original to be bowled over by Chrono Trigger's timeless genius. Playing the game afresh today is a mixture of wonder and tragedy. Wonder at the quality of the design, storyline and tragedy that so few games caught on to its solutions to many of the JRPG format's restrictions and problems.

Tom Bramwell: This came out at the peak of my teenage love with JRPGs, and marked the point at which baby Tom realised he was grown up enough for the scary-looking turn-based RPGs. What I didn't appreciate at the time was that it was peerless, and I'd never love another JRPG as much as I did this.

26. SingStar PS3

Sony / Sony London / PS3

Rob Purchese: I'm outraged that this isn't top. Everybody's eyes light up when SingStar comes out. A chance to show off and a chance to be ridiculous, and for that reason, SingStar, you are my most cherished game of Saturday nights. Sorry, 2008.

Rob Fahey: It's utterly disappointing in so many ways - no wireless mics (next year, we're told), no improvements to the scoring, and a steady flow of disc releases (on PS3 and PS2 alike) whose content, infuriatingly, doesn't appear in the online store. It's awful - and yet when Saturday night rolls round, bearing with it a bottle of JD and a box of silly wigs, it doesn't matter a damn how awful it is.

Kristan Reed: Now that Rock Band and Guitar Hero World Tour exist, my reasons for playing SingStar have diminished slightly - except when I feel the need to engage in sickening duets with Keza. True story: we killed a set of speakers singing two-player SEX BOMB.

Keza MacDonald: Ah yes, the game that broke my speakers, had two of my controllers and my EyeToy thrown across the room in moments of emotional excess and is the cause of at least six of the eight massive beer stains on my carpet. Since I figured out that my SingStar purchases are tax-deductible it's all gone downhill.

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 3

Oli Welsh: As social-gaming software goes, Sony's London studio can still show Nintendo and Harmonix a thing or two. On PS3, SingStar does a fair few things better than any other music game, notably the superb use of the camera. Helping put together Ellie's SingStar video was some of the best fun I've had in front of a games console this year. Now that's user-generated content.

Ellie Gibson: Only 26? This should have been in the top ten, surely. As should my performance of Total Eclipse of the Heart. Roll on next year's X-Factor and Christmas number one.

Alec Meer: My ex-girlfriend managed to spend a small fortune in the online store before leaving me. I remain convinced getting 20 quid of free karoake downloads was her devious six-year plan.

Kieron Gillen: I love that SingStar turns up every year in the Eurogamer Top 50. Because EG knows how to party.

Simon Parkin: SingStar has always been the best-looking game on the rhythm-action market, its white space and stylish understatement a refreshing antidote to Guitar Hero's unsightly clash of stage-light colour, sweat and lycra. Despite the pleasing neutrality of the menus and HUD, it's more of a game than Microsoft's rival Lips, which aims for a literal approximation of the Japanese karaoke experience. But SingStar's competitive elements never disrupt the flow of a party by alienating non-gamers. Visiting the SingStore while drunk - the only time most players will ever visit the SingStore - can be an expensive excursion.

Johnny Minkley: Familiarity didn't quite breed contempt with SingStar, but certainly complacency. It was only when I got my tonsils around the lacklustre and slightly chapped Lips that I realised why this remains a crooner sans pareil. I secretly prefer the Disney version, but that's a genetic defect.

25. Wii Fit

Nintendo / Wii

Rich Leadbetter: Nothing short of a work of genius in attracting newcomers to videogaming. My family wheels it out every time a visitor turns up at the house, and everyone leaves wanting it. Of course, the game itself becomes dull and repetitive to anyone who plays it within a matter of days - hours, even. It's a masterpiece of concept over content. Not that Nintendo cares as the money keeps rolling in regardless.

Oli Welsh: The mini-game with the penguin and the fish and the tilting block of ice is a work of minimalist genius. Seriously. It's just total arcade-game perfection, and the best thing Nintendo's in-house studios did all year.

Christian Donlan: I really liked this, mostly because Wiifity Island was such a lovely place to wander around of an afternoon. I'm still fat, however.

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 4

Keza MacDonald: Well, I lost weight playing it! I even had fun doing it, for about three weeks, and then a proper game came along. But Wii Fit is something special - if you'd have tried to tell me that a fitness game would sell millions five years ago (or, for that matter, a brain training game), I'd have slapped you in the face with a haddock until you'd come to your senses.

John Walker: If you took all the people in the world who'd spent 80 quid on this convinced it would help them trim down and get fit, and put them in a big pile, you'd have a big fat wobbly pile of big fat wobbly people. With me on top.

Simon Parkin: The Wii Fit experience mimics in small our wider experience of its host console. Initial wonder at the bright innovation of the concept turns to joy at first touch. Slick, utilitarian design guides you through the game's exercises and physical games with the very best Japanese elegance and thoughtful efficiency. Then, a week into the relationship, joy gives way to ennui as the repetitive tasks fail to offer much depth (or weight-loss) and finally, you sink into buyer's regret just as you slip the balance board into a cupboard and turn off the light, fat and a bit unhappy.

Kieron Gillen: When a peripheral provokes web-memes based around scantily-clad grinding hips, you have to suspect Nintendo is subtly kicking against its reputation. Fewer family games, more making-family games. The inevitable porn-based Miyamoto-designed game can only be a couple of years away. They've already got the plumber. They just need the slightly bored housewife, y'know?

Johnny Minkley: I would love to see some proper research done into how many of the 70,000 Brits still buying this every week keep playing after the first few weeks: it's the gaming equivalent of January gym membership. Or, at least it would be, had it not actually worked for me. Gathering dust my Balance Board may be, but the insufferably smug virtual trainer shamed me enough that I've been running three times a week since. Anything that allows me to eat as much KFC as I like without getting fat is all right by me.

24. Pure

Disney / Black Rock / Xbox 360 / PS3 / PC

Kristan Reed: Quad bikes with SSX tricks meet lovely game engine. Up there with GRID and Burnout as the must-have racing games of the year.

Christian Donlan: A lovely surprise, and the kind of game that's going to have a core group of very devoted fans for years to come, hopefully. Turned quads from an instrument of celebrity mishap into something a little more likable.

Kieron Gillen: I had no idea. It's good then?

Alec Meer: SSX with ATVs, and a solid giggle for it. The PC port was a joke, however - the main menu took longer to load than the levels themselves. Which is kind of like packet of crisps taking longer to open than to eat. Honestly publishers, if you can't be bothered to properly optimise console ports for PC, just don't bother - otherwise it'll sell badly, suffer low reviews and you'll knee-jerk proclaim the PC is a dying waste of time. Also, any children you have will be half-wits. Only you can save them, by not being a lazy miser.

Simon Parkin: ATV games are so often presented with the exclamation-point superlatives of the extreme sports vernacular, graphic design hype overcompensating for the underwhelming experience beneath the presentation. Pure is different. The lingering descents from mountaintops are two parts F-Zero, one part Pilotwings, those slow-motion moments spent soaring through blue, blue skies providing relief from the hot roar of engines that will resume as soon as you hit the ground below. The ATV-creation system, which could so easily have been over fussy and tiresome, is executed with thought and elegance and the racing that these elements dress is never short of spectacular.

Rich Leadbetter: While we wait for EA to resurrect SSX, Pure will do just fine. I mean, to all intents and purposes, it is SSX, just with quad bikes. It's also a technically superb game that's beautiful to look at. I've seen this available to buy online for 10 quid, officially making it the bargain of the year.

23. Race Driver: GRID

Codemasters / PS3, Xbox 360, PC

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 5

Simon Parkin: Codemasters' delightful antidote to the earnestness of Gran Turisma and Forza was, for me, a rediscovery of what racing games can best offer. Service to realism can only provide so much enjoyment, and only to a niche audience at that. GRID, by contrast, delights in its videogame-ness, offering, without apology, an exaggerated, accessible version of the sport. The reapplication of Prince of Persia's time-rewind function was clever, the races in which you compete with and against a team-mate ingenious but, most of all, GRID polishes the rough potential of Colin McRae's DiRT into a bright diamond.

Oli Welsh: Not the best year for driving games, but GRID stood tall. TOCA fans understandably felt let down by the simplified handling, but once you got over it there was plenty of fun to be had with its sticky, tyre-smoking bump and grind. Over and above that, the structure, graphics, presentation, AI aggression and sheer sense of trackside drama all broke new ground, which bodes well for Codemasters finally making a Formula One game the whole world can enjoy in 2009.

Kristan Reed: Codies never seems to get the credit it deserves for the Race Driver games, but GRID seemed to be a bit of a breakthrough release on that score. In an era when racing games are struggling to offer anything new, the rewind mechanic was an interesting and brave move.

Alec Meer: Would be my favourite racing game of the year, were it not for TrackMania: Hugely Confusing Subtitle #12. The sim crowd can't stand it, but it hit just the right middle ground for me. Tellingly, I've reached for a time-rewind button that isn't there in every racing game I've played since. It seems such an obvious inclusion that I remain stunned it's not been around forever.

22. Far Cry 2

Ubisoft / Ubisoft Montreal / PS3, Xbox 360, PC

Kristan Reed: Lovely game world, solid gameplay, soulless characters. Coming to this after Fallout 3 was a massive comedown, but I'm determined to come back to it.

Christian Donlan: Struggles to hide the fact that you're a heavily-armed errand boy, and makes the bizarre choice of regularly punishing you for exploring, but it's strangely classy nonetheless, and not just because it wants you to know it's read Heart of Darkness and underlined all the "deep" bits.

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 6

Jim Rossignol: Okay, so this received a bit of a mixed reception, but I'm happy to be an apologist. Out of my gamer friends, I'd say only about a third actually liked it. Which is a shame, because I think if you roll with it, and get past the deranged AI and world-of-ATTACK you find yourself faced with in outside towns, then there's a game with an entire ecosystem of atmospheric experiences, and scope for John Rambo levels of cartoon death-mongering. Charging into an enemy camp with a flamethrower, a shotgun, and no real plan, is always the best way to approach any situation. It's a genuine shame that the same can't be said of real life.

Kieron Gillen: My favourite first-person shooter of the year, I think, if only because it's the one which genuinely tried. Well, that's not true - that's just a pretty phrase. I respect it because it tried. I love it because of being dragged away from the frontline by a buddy, with a big piece of shrapnel through my chest, watching my battered car explode, igniting the grass-fields. It's the best shooter set-piece the year offered me, and it wasn't even a set-piece. It was just something that happened. Something awesome that happened.

Alec Meer: I feel a little alone in loathing this. The crazyhyperspeedacting is something that forbids my picky sensibilities from forming any sense of association with the world, and the Respawning Checkpoints Of Death make for a game that's so entirely mechanical that playing it feels futile. I know there's clever stuff in there, but whenever I try to play it I just hit this wall of artificiality that drives me away instantly.

John Walker: It's funny how everyone says the same thing about some good games. Like Mirror's Edge - wouldn't it have been great without the combat? It's mysterious to me how a development studio can spend years creating a game, and somehow not pick up on the one thing everyone's going to say about it when it's out. Such insular development is so maddeningly stupid. Why the constantly respawning guard posts? Just why?

Tom Bramwell: The modern Ubisoft averages one or two daring, fascinating games a year, and does them with blockbuster production values, and while it invariably gets stuff wrong, it's getting better at getting things right. Perhaps the highest praise for this is that it's an FPS sequel made by a different developer, but nobody even mentions that any more.

21. RedLynx Trials 2: Second Edition

RedLynx / PC

Johnny Minkley: I had to Google this, for God's sake.

'Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008: 30-21' Screenshot 7

Rob Purchese: RedLynx Trials 2 put our office in a state of competitive frenzy, so much so that we now have a flag on the wall. It's the only thing on the wall. I also recorded the fourth-fastest time for the tutorial level on the internet one evening and I was ever so proud. Even if I wasn't in the top 20 the next morning.

Kieron Gillen: As archetypal a videogame as that one with a square pixel rebounding between two extended rectangular arrays of pixels, updated to modern technology - proper physics, online scoreboards, auto-sharing and downloadable ghost modes, amusingly brutal ragdolls - and released into the wilds of the internet. It's the sort of game which makes me want to take anyone who says there's only strategy games and shooters on the PC, put them on a motorbike and force them to ride across a series of precariously constructed beams, barrels and general death-traps.

Alec Meer: I am so crap at this it's not even funny. I adore watching people play it, however.

Tom Bramwell: This saved my life. Having flown somewhere to meet friends, I found myself trapped in a boring hotel in a boring town for two days afterwards, but then Kieron put me on to Trials 2, and by the end I was gutted to have to leave at all. Then I almost missed my flight home playing it in the departure lounge, and turned two people onto it on the plane. And this was before I could hook it up to the net and beat my friends at it. I then spent the next few weeks probing ghost downloads and manipulating the physics to strip another fraction of a second away and top the office leaderboard. For long-time EG readers, this was 2008's Slitherlink.

And we'll be back tomorrow with 20-11. It's getting real.

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Comments (297) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Benno #1 3 years ago

    DONT LOOK, MGS IS NOT REALLY THERE, IT WAS JUST A DREAM
    Edited by 3 at 28/12/08 @ 18:47

  • DUFFKING #2 3 years ago

    This is going to end in tears.

  • nbnz #3 3 years ago

    I'm guessing that EG is trying to be extra controversial with this list. I don't agree with it at all, but hey, it's their list.

  • Salato #4 3 years ago

    Oh. My. God.
    30. MGS4
    You know what you've done now don't you? You've just set up another 2000 posts.

    /takes cover before the storm arrives

  • makeamazing #5 3 years ago

    I personally dont care what order they put things in... its their list... but for me personally long cut scenes are a total put off, and I didnt like the MGS at all. If I had played more games this year then perhaps then it would have been lower in the list for me :)

  • Gl3n #6 3 years ago

    I reckon most of the MGS diehards quit forevers after Oli's sober review anyway!

  • adnan08 #7 3 years ago

    How the hell is MGS4 so low in the list?!?!?!?!

  • Gl3n #8 3 years ago

    ....shit

  • Farzlepot #9 3 years ago

    Hey, we got our own top 50 list, now EG gets theirs. Our time for arbitrarily ordering our favourite games into pointless lists has long since passed!

    If I were them I'd create a 'Top 50 MGS4 Cut-Scenes 2008' article to keep the MGS4 fans happy.

  • Yossarian #10 3 years ago

    "Kristan Reed: Lovely game world, solid gameplay, soulless characters. Coming to this after Fallout 3 was a massive comedown, but I'm determined to come back to it."
    lolololol

    Far Cry 2 > Fallout 3 by miles and miles and miles of rolling African savannah.

  • stonedben #11 3 years ago

    Aaah, over-enthusiastic punctuation. A sure sign of an addled mind.

  • Cappy #12 3 years ago

    Is Kieron Gillen still alive?

    How quaint.

    And unfortunate.

  • Benno #13 3 years ago

    God it would be so funny if they had just put it one place higher at 31 :D

  • Cataferal #14 3 years ago

    MGS4 deserves its position. What a waste of time and money.

  • Gl3n #15 3 years ago

    Fallout 3 has clearly won the thing. Shirley?

  • Cataferal #16 3 years ago

    I'm surprised people are still in disagreement with the Oli's review. Ignore the score; even on hindsight, his words still ring true.

  • Benno #17 3 years ago

    Its the same sort of bitterness that people seem to hold against ex-girlfriends who slepts with your mate and wee'd on your cat

  • Mr.Gordons #18 3 years ago

    well you definitely put metal gear in its... hehe... place

  • DUFFKING #19 3 years ago

    Wii Music for #1, you know it makes sense.

  • BOFH_UK #20 3 years ago

    "On one hand I'm actually quite pleased that EG has stuck to its guns over this one, on the other you have to admit that it clearly demonstrates how badly out-of-touch the reviewing staff here are compared to public and (broadly speaking) global critical opinion."

    Uh, no. Sorry but no. Assuming you're talking about MGS4 the review was bang on. It's a decent game, high quality and offering an interesting experience. BUT it's also a real marmite game where the majority either love it to death or hate it. The public opinion is difficult to judge as a lot, possibly even the majority, of PS3 owners are in the love it category and therefore it made decent sales figures, at least when launched. But the majority of the gaming world haven't played it and ongoing sales don't seem to have been very good (although the Xmas figures will be interesting).

    The sad fact is that EG got the MGS4 review RIGHT. They gave an objective review without resorting to the salavating rubbish that most sites did and also steering clear of a real slating that would have happened if they gave it to someone who just doesn't like that sort of game. There are design decisions (chief amongst them cut scenes) made in MGS4 that are either the best thing since sliced bread to existing fans or horrible downsides for newcomers. EG did a good job at expressing these problems and marked accordingly. Those that scream about bias, or demand that it should be recognised as the best game ever, are not reviewing the game objectivley and would be awful sources on which to base a purchasing decision.

  • ChrisTop #21 3 years ago

    Now this Site is officially in Kojima's black list.

    ...and Kojima is really f***ing frightening.

  • Domstercool #22 3 years ago

    Persona 3 needs to be higher :p Such a class RPG with one hell of a soundtrack.

  • Burkey123 #23 3 years ago

    Wii Fit > Metal Gear Solid 4
    Edited by 1 at 28/12/08 @ 19:32

  • Hunam #24 3 years ago

    Far Cry 2 above MGS4? Really?

  • Benno #25 3 years ago

    Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney > MGS4

  • Moz #26 3 years ago

    The big issue with MGS reviews is that it's reviewed as being a game, when it's not just a game. It's a game and a cgi movie intertwined and it's never pretended any different.

    If people don't like the story then that's fair enough, but people who slaight it for the cut scenes being too long has missed the point. The is a big difference between somthing being bad and something that you personally don't like.

    So if the consept of a game (in this case long cut scenes) doesn't appeal to a reviewer before they've even started to play it then they should consider that they're maybe not the best person to be reviewing. It's like someone reviewing a racing game when they hate racers and are rubbish at them.

  • Farzlepot #27 3 years ago

    Gl3n: "Fallout 3 has clearly won the thing. Shirley?"

    Sssh! You'll jinx it!

  • autogunner #28 3 years ago

    oh my god its started again...

  • DFawkes #29 3 years ago

    I didn't like Olis review because I din't like the words. If it'd ended 10/10, I'd have still hated it. If it had 1/10, I'd have hated it. If it had no score, I'd have hated it. If Oli came around to my house and brought a delicious Steak and Cheese pizza from Asda, with a freshly printed copy of the review, and a bribe of Ł50 to just nod along and say it's good instead of gaive my honest opinion, I'd stil have said "What the heck are you doing at my house?", followed by "I don't really like this review."

    Agree with it's place on the list though. As much as I loved it, there's a whole lot I loved more this year.

  • merkdot #30 3 years ago

    I love all these so far.

    The coup de grace would be no Gears of War 2 in the top 50 at all, but that's just too far fetched and delicious to be possible.

  • steve1979 #31 3 years ago

    / grabs popcorn

    / settles in for the fun.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #32 3 years ago

    Calling MGS fans immature is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this site.
    Not because I agree or disagree with it, but because it is unprofessional.

    You are biting the hand that feeds you.

    Oh shut up, you dimwit. The hand that feeds EG is advertisers, who want lots of traffic, which is generated by provoking debate. Or in your case, just unthinking retards.

  • a.j2020 #33 3 years ago

    Being an avid MGS die hard since its Playstation 1 days I have to say Eurogamer's review if taken without a score (i.e...if it was just read as an essay without a score) would probably be a very good neutral viewpoint of a very subjective game. However, I don't believe EG did the right thing by scoring MGS so controversially. Yes, MGS is a love it or hate it game and yes EG tried to rate it from a normal games's perspective and that is why i believe the score was flawed. In my Honest opinion games like MGS 4 who belong in their own genre(Tactical Espionage Action) should not be scored. They should just be reviewed, since their success/fun/playability are all subjective to the person playing it. Overall though I do have to say eurogamer have had a few stinkers in terms of reviews and they are not really held high in my regards. That'd be IGN and gamespot.

  • Brainboy #34 3 years ago

    Hehe. Reading this, it seems EG were literally trying to set the site on fire: Singstar, WiiFit and Trials 2 all voted higher than MGS4.

  • PinkSpider #35 3 years ago

    Trials 2 is Ł1.49 on steam, so tempting despite it not really being my thing.

  • andy06 #36 3 years ago

    I've always recognised the positives and frailties of the MGS series and in that respect EG's negative review hits the right points for me. However, its epic cutscenes are a familiar bed-fellow, having been prevalent since the very first game. Despite sitting through the cutscenes there was no possible way I could ever stop playing until the game was finished. In Far Cry 2 (which would be in a personal list of Bottom 50 Games of 2008) by comparison, I managed about an hour's play through its painfully simple 'driver slash assassin' game design before trading the game back in. Different games of course, but a computer game is one that you should want to continue playing, deep into the early hours if need be. I would argue that it's testament to the quality of MGS4 in areas outside of its dreary cutscenes and incoherent plot, that the game is so highly rated by professional review sites and the playing public.

    Moz makes a very strong point, too. I never saw the appeal to Fallout 3, as I found the constant wandering to be a monumental waste of time - so much so that I'd reload the game so one of my Speech/Charisma skills worked, allowing me to avoid a quest involving much wandering. As a result, I followed the main narrative, explored very little and, by completion, saw probably only a small percentage of what the game seemed to have to offer. Despite my opinion being just as important, I'd be a rubbish reviewer for such a title, as I recognise that it's not Fallout 3 the game I disliked, but the game dynamics of the RPG genre as a whole. I prefer games to flow quickly FPS-style, not something to sink 100s of hours of time I just do not have into. As I mentioned at the start, the cutscenes have been an 'issue' (depending on your perspective) since the very first instalment. The fact that the reviewer dwelled so chronically on them in light of this illustrated to me that he probably wasn't seeing much else, hence the interpretation of it being a negative review. Calling readers immature for having that interpretation is not just unprofessional (seriously, why actually submit this? It serves no purpose other than satiating a strange need for vengeance, and creates antagonism) but also laughably ironic.
    Edited by 1 at 28/12/08 @ 20:12

  • a.j2020 #37 3 years ago

    Yes...I just believe their reviews are more subjective and this has nothing to do with scoring, they have scored badly as well but that is only because the whole scoring system is flawed. I accept low scores when and where they are deserved but if they are given due to a flaw in the system...that is what gets to me.

  • Farzlepot #38 3 years ago

    a.j2020, how is 8/10, equal by all accounts to 80%, which by extension is considered to be a pretty successful quantity, in any way controversial, aside from the fact that you're a fan and wanted it to get 100% regardless?

  • Scimarad #39 3 years ago

    Look! It's more games that shouldn't be ahead of Wipeout HD...er, except for Persona 3.

  • a.j2020 #40 3 years ago

    No...believe me when i say this 8/10 is a very decent score and would not be considered controversial in most senses but when the game had been hyped to be 'PS3's Saviour' etc. and when most other reputable reviewers offered the tittle critical acclaim it does become controversial. But i wish to reiterate that i am not dissapointed by the level of the score. I just wouldn't like games like MGS scored. Simply because, yes, i believe its a 10/10 game but i am fully understanding if someone else comes to me and says i didnt like it and for them its a 5/10 game. What i wouldn't accept is if the game is given 8/10 because it has been looked at like an ordinary game which we all know MGS is anything but.

  • botherer #41 3 years ago

    It really doesn't make sense that people aren't more angry about Apollo Justice not being higher. MSGwhatnow?

  • figaro7 #42 3 years ago

    Glad to see Pure on the list, its easily the best racer on the 360 this year, well that ive played anyway.

  • Farzlepot #43 3 years ago

    I agree with you. Not on the notion that MGS4 is somehow excused from the same review process as other games because it's on some kind of different level to everything else, but on the idea that review scores in general shouldn't happen. Reading the review should be how one decides whether or not a game is for them. This is particularly true when scores on pretty much all sites often seem to be rather arbitrary these days.

    Unfortunately, all game review websites have to give scores because that way they get themselves hooked into Metacritic, or even better, if they give a game a great score and a nice soundbite to go with it, they might even get their site listed on the box!

    Besides, think of all the page impressions they'd lose out on if threads suddenly became devoid of 2,000-post score haggling!

  • jellyhead #44 3 years ago

    I'm still taken aback by someone saying that IGN is better than EG

    0_o

    Did they not read the Footie Manager review and the ensuing debacle?
    I love IGN's podcasts but their reviews. Not so much.

    Aside from the suspiciously calculated positioning of MGS4 it's good to see some lesser known games getting some respect not just the AAA titles. If Too Human is in the top ten then i'll call shenanigans! :)

  • a.j2020 #45 3 years ago

    I don't believe that MGS 4 is in a different level to everything else, thats why it should be scored separately. I just believe that MGS4 is a significantly different game. Its main concept is those cutscenes and to duck points off of MGS for cutscene is like docking points from a cheetah for running too fast. You are misunderstanding the idea of the game and it is not only MGS that this happens with. Many other games are also misunderstood through this scoring system.

    That is why I would like to have a non-scoring based system. But yes, Farzlepot you're right. In this world money and fame is what counts and it seems putting a mere number at the bottom of the page brings floods of people on here to talk and that is what advertisers want. We live in such a flawed and fickle world.

  • a.j2020 #46 3 years ago

    Ah...yes Jellyhead...i was the one who said IGN was better but then again, lets be honest!! why would you ever read or trust a footy review from an american site? And yes i did read the football manager review and i was left thinking to myself whether they played the same game i did. Thats like EG reviewing an American football game...i wouldn't trust them on that. But overall, in my personal opinion, i prefer IGN.

  • Gaol #47 3 years ago

    MGS4 was over so quick. The ridiculous install method prevented all but the diehards replaying it. I mean reinstalling everytime you change chapter? Insane.

    So all I remember is a few points in the early chapters where it approached it's old greatness, and that wretched ending.

    I still think the inability of Kojima to kill fucking Snake cost the game a lot in opinion. At least if it had gone out with a bang it might have been looked at more fondly.

  • xXn00bXx #48 3 years ago

    Wii Fit 5 places better than MGS4 rofl ...this list sucks so bad.

  • bad09 #49 3 years ago

    Seriously guys how the hell is one of the best PS3 games MGS4 below casual tat like Singstar and Wiifit???

    / shakes head at the EG top 50 and people involved

  • clean515 #50 3 years ago

    I'm not really a mgs fan but putting it in front of singstar ? Hehe i guess eurogamer is just trying to get attention.

    The cutscenes are too long but only games i had more fun with this year have been LBP and fable 2.
    Edited by 1 at 28/12/08 @ 21:28

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #51 3 years ago

    ah, I remember you from the pik pik comments.

    I see you are still a cunt.

    And I see you were lying about the ignore list, brainless child.

    LOL.

  • Dizzy #52 3 years ago

    Ha the final 20... now it gets interesting...


    I am shocked at how high MGS scores... I would have put it around 2934073298.
    Edited by 3 at 28/12/08 @ 21:40

  • Gl3n #53 3 years ago

    Website not loving game as much as me, website must be attention seeking.

    You people are freaks.

  • Widge #54 3 years ago

    Thankfully higher than the "fun" Saints Row 2 though eh?

  • IAchilleasI #55 3 years ago

    MGS4 sucks. Can't wait for it to come to the X360

    I'm getting so hyped from scouring the net and finding x360 friendly sites start ungrounded rumours every other week about how its coming to the 360, reminding us how much it sucks when they are proven wrong.

  • TheComedian #56 3 years ago

    I can't believe how many people are slating Eurogamer for not following the trend with MGS4. Just because game site X and Y say it's the best thing ever doesn't mean that EG have to think so. Why, just because other critics think it's a 10/10 game, should EG give a flying f*uck? It's their review, it was fair, it was well-written, and I trust EG's scores more than any other site - that doesn't mean I think GS and IGN are wrong. Jesus.

    Anyway. Singstar rocks.

  • oerhoert #57 3 years ago

    <em>Rich Leadbetter on Wii Fit: "Nothing short of a work of genius in attracting newcomers to videogaming. My family wheels it out every time a visitor turns up at the house, and everyone leaves wanting it. Of course, the game itself becomes dull and repetitive to anyone who plays it within a matter of days - hours, even.</em>

    It's not a game, it's a (somehow limited) excercise device offering a LOT more motivation than many of its competitors (see TV Shop).

    For the MGS4 whiners: Please shut up. EG has been open about how the list was constructed, which makes arguments like "how did MGS4 get so low" absolutetly ridiculous. It got so low because not that many EG journos liked it.

    I like this list format, and I like the informal chatter about each position, but I loathe the reader response. There should be an internet certificate to make sure less morons got online.
    Edited by 1 at 28/12/08 @ 22:13

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #58 3 years ago

    Why, just because other critics think it's a 10/10 game, should EG give a flying f*uck?

    Fluck? Fruck? Fnuck? Fwuck?

  • Daymare #59 3 years ago

    "They're like one of those film sites that will pick their top ten films of the year and number 1 will be some obscure foreign film... "

    What's wrong with that?

  • tonynibbles #60 3 years ago

    MGS4 should be higher.

    Re SingStar disc releases: "whose content, infuriatingly, doesn't appear in the online store"

    ...not entirely true, some songs from later games are on the SingStore. Just not all of them.

  • polaris70 #61 3 years ago

    Lets be honest, Far Cry 2 is a better GAME than MGS4. Far Cry 2 has set-peices that are not set-pieces, they are part of the game world and just happen, something a lot of games could learn from. Far Cry 2 is not perfect, but people complaining about 'it takes to long to travel' blah blah blah should just stick to the other 1000 fps's out there. Great idea from Ubi, I hope all the moaners don't make developers go back to bog-standard linear FPS's. MGS4 is one of the worst games I've played, great movie though.

  • BOFH_UK #62 3 years ago

    "I'm not throwing a hissy fit, just pointing out that its a very controversial opinion compared to what appears to be the broad consensus. Which as I pointed out isn't a good way to foster confidence in the reviewers critical faculties here. "

    Oh for GODS sake... please try to understand what this list is about. They even posted a nice helpful editors blog explaining all this - it's NOT a list based on the 'critical faculties' of the reviewers in any way shape or form. What they consider a good or bad game from the point of view of informing their readership is clearly laid out in the review text and scores for each individual game that comes through the doors. What this is is their own personal opinion and, guess what, when you have a marmite game like this and a weighting formula that means it's likely to end up lower down the list if, for example, two people out of ten put it at number one and the rest don't list it as opposed to a title that's on everyone's list but in tenth place.

    The crying over MGS4 is just ridiculous - it's not that good a game UNLESS you're really into the Metal Gear storyline and genre (it really is almost a genre to itself at this point) at which point it's the best thing since sliced bread. It has its moments but for many it's simply too much of a slog through incredibly long, dull and boring cutscenes, not to mention a control scheme that's... let's be polite and say 'tricky' to make those moments worthwhile. For those who like the story its untouched but I personally would never recommend buying it to anyone who hasn't experienced the MGS games before. Rent it, see what you think and make your own decision from that.

    I have to say, I think it's a shame that people are so commited to protecting certain franchises (Halo is another one that springs to mind). Let the games speak for themselves and, if one of your favourites ends up lower than you think it should, take a moment to think WHY that might have been the case instead of reaching for the flame button.

  • oerhoert #63 3 years ago

    <em>"Fable 2 has zero replay value, and thats unforgivable for an openended RPG."</em>

    How come?
    Edited by 1 at 28/12/08 @ 23:23

  • stevetuck #64 3 years ago

    Wonder what will get the most replys... the fact that the snorefest of MGS4 was lower placed than the #2 game GTABore

  • botherer #65 3 years ago

    Remo: "EG want to be elitist... Now it is all about page clicks."

    It's a bit odd that you don't see the contradiction here. If EG were manipulating the list for pageviews, they'd certainly not put something obscure that would attract fewer comments/complaints.

    However, your deluded conspiracy theories are misplaced. Tom genuinely sends us an email asking us to submit our top 10 games, and then makes the Top 50 accordingly. None of us have anything to gain from lying in our lists. Sorry to be so dull.

  • Rizzle #66 3 years ago

    Is not the havoc of the "staff" Top 50 it's point? And the word-thinks trying to excuse it the entertainment? Personally, I'm just happy to see some Ace Attorney love and see where we end up next.
    Edited by 1 at 28/12/08 @ 23:54

  • Katsumoto #67 3 years ago

    GTA4PC - harsh? Didn't it get 9/10?

    Seriously, some people just love to see conspiracy. Also, does ANYONE read how they actually work this out? "Zomg this got a review of X but Y said Z about it" - Eurogamer is made up of many people, does it really surprise people that some of them have different opinions about things? Apparently so.

  • Isere #68 3 years ago

    Perhaps MGS4 had sex with EGs mum.

  • Moonprince #69 3 years ago

    Damn, most of the comments make these people look clueless. EG that is. They should take down this list of theirs, never attempt it again and just stick to the readers list. Would be much much better...

  • creepylizard #70 3 years ago

    Have any of you read the reader reviews? They're rubbish
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 00:35

  • botherer #71 3 years ago

    Remo, I don't know if it's your intention, but you portray yourself as an extremely unpleasant person.

    "You love to review all the obscure Japanese puzzlers and give them 10/10 when they don't deserve it to prove you are the journalistic elite"

    I am the freelancer responsible for giving out the 10s for Slitherlink and Pic Pic. The latter of which was a UK release in English. I can assure you that my motivations for these marks were purely derived from playing such near-perfectly implemented puzzle games that provided me with literally hundreds of hours of fantastic entertainment, each. I can promise you that neither review has caused me to be elevated to the "journalistic elite". In fact, each review has resulted in two things.

    1) A lot of people have bought those games and reported back how glad they are that they did.
    2) Mindlessly spiteful people call me names on the internet.

    What is it that you so fervently believe I was attempting to gain from writing what you claim to be dishonest reviews? Do you imagine there is a secret club for games writers who give a high mark to an obscure game, and I was attempting to buy my way into it? If there is such a club, I've yet to receive my invitation. Because, you see, I was doing my job where I mark a game according to what I believe it deserves.

    I'm still confused at how you think deliberately including obscure or "elitist" (I can't imagine how more inappropriately that word could be used - it's a simple puzzle game on the DS) games increases page counts. I can assure you it doesn't. They receive a tiny fraction of the attention given to big budget current-gen console releases.

    But to stress, if you don't agree with the exact placing of this Top 50, it means you're stupid and you smell.
    Edited by 2 at 29/12/08 @ 01:07

  • GitSomE_UK #72 3 years ago

    Far Cry 2 better than MGS4 ?! ... Madness total madness

    Act 4 in MGS4 will forever be one of my best gaming moments, cut scenes and all.

    Wii fit better than MGS4?!!!

    /faints
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 01:04

  • smelly #73 3 years ago

    Yeah.. come on.. anyone who takes this stuff seriously is a fool who doesnt understand that people who make sites like this need to be paid by advertisers...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #74 3 years ago

    You love to review all the obscure Japanese puzzlers and give them 10/10 when they don't deserve it

    Well, no. Both of the Japanese puzzlers that have received 10/10 have deserved it, because they both have absolutely superb gameplay and offer roughly 100 times as many hours of play as a Tomb Raider or a Gears Of War for half the price.

    The problem here is simply that you're a tiresome, pompous, arrogant little penis who can't accept a little-known game with simple graphics getting a higher mark than a big-name title with better graphics, because you have neither the maturity nor imagination to comprehend that there's more to good games than lots of polygons and hype, nor the grace and humility to admit that a game you haven't heard of (because you haven't been force-fed previews of it for nine months before it comes out) might still be great.

  • Katsumoto #75 3 years ago

    "The most begrudging 9/10 ever.
    Which when you have reviewed the same game and given it 10/10 makes no sense. "

    But, as I was trying (and perhaps failing) to stress, he didn't review the same game and give it 10/10. A completely different person, who was also paid by EG and also got his review published on EG, reviewed the console version, half a year earlier. As far as I know not many sites, and certainly not eurogamer, all gather round on every single review to come up with a score they all agree on. That's just up to the person reviewing the game in question.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #76 3 years ago

    My point was that the MSG4 commentary by Parkin was unprofessional in that he insulted his own consumer.

    And I pointed out to you that that wasn't the slightest bit unprofessional, on any level. It shows either massive integrity (being prepared to say unpopular things if you believe them) or extremely cynical professionalism (deliberately generating a response from idiots to create traffic, which generates revenue), or both. Unfortunately, you're so pompous and arrogant that you think disagreeing with you is in and of itself "unprofessional".

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #77 3 years ago

    Rev, can you post something that doesn't have a childish insult in it?

    Yes, when I'm responding to someone who isn't a ridiculously stupid dickhead.

    If you're really interested in my age, it can be easily found in numerous places on the internet, but I've been reviewing videogames professionally for just shy of 20 years, and suspect I probably know a little more than you about "how review based magazines do it".

  • botherer #78 3 years ago

    remo, I'm sorry but again your facts are quite wrong. I have never written for a games magazine where the score has been an editorial consensus, and I've written for many.

    As it happens, since Slitherlink was the first 10 I've given a game in my ten year career, I did talk extensively with Tom Bramwell about it before deciding it was the correct mark. I wanted to give it 10, believed it deserved it, but was cautious. Tom's emphatic agreement left me in no doubt.

    I'm also not sure what you mean by "love this type of game", unless the type of game in question is, "really, exceptionally good ones." If that's what you meant, then yes, I love that type of game. If, as I disappointingly suspect, you mean "obscure Japanese puzzle games," then no, I have no love for such a genre. I'm not sure how someone could love games on this basis, since so many are so very terrible, most are mediocre, a few are good, and very few are excellent. I love the excellent ones - I find that's a good rule of thumb.

    I'm not sure you realise how offensive and patronising it is to tell someone that they are pretending to/deluding themselves into liking something because it will cause them to stand out from the crowd. Let me assure you it is extremely offensive and patronising. I find your polarising of every subject very peculiar. My enjoying the exquisitely excellent Slitherlink and Pic Pic has not, in any fathomable way, caused me to "turn my back on blockbusters". I'm not sure how you could think it would. Do you believe that if someone enjoys something that's unfamiliar to the majority, it means they're emotionally incapable of enjoying something mainstream? I hope I can put your mind at rest by promising you this isn't the case. If it helps, my two favourite films this year were Wall-E, and Man On Wire. Iron Man was another favourite, and Lĺt den rätte komma in was stunning. Both in the same brain!
    Edited by 2 at 29/12/08 @ 01:44

  • Ryze #79 3 years ago

    OMG MGS4 lower then Wii Fit!!!

    :D

    This is blasphemy

    This is madness!!!

    Madness??

    THIS IS SPARTA!!!

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #80 3 years ago

    Yes I've seen your shitty website.
    From the design of it I thought it must have been stopped in 1993. You charge people for that?

    No, I don't.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #81 3 years ago

    Why do you think everything is about you? I have said in at least 3 posts that I liked your review of pic pic very much. I admire your enthusiasm for it. My comments are at EG in general.

    Make your mind up, son.

    You love to review all the obscure Japanese puzzlers and give them 10/10 when they don't deserve it to prove you are the journalistic elite

    Only one writer in EG's entire history has given any "obscure Japanese puzzlers" 10/10 - the aforementioned Mr Walker, aka botherer. So do you like his reviews of these games and admire his enthusiasm, or is he just giving undeserving games high marks to prove he's the journalistic elite? Which is it?

    Do you even know what your opinion is, or have you tied yourself in so many knots of dribbling kneejerk stupidity that you're just typing random sentences and hoping for the best?

  • coomber #82 3 years ago

    Seeing a million comments about the MGS4 review doesn't surprise me...the fanboys were never going to let that go (even though, as I have said a few times before on this site, EG's review was the best you'll see anywhere). MGS4 was a good game and I have spent 100 hours playing Metal Gear Online - the online game included with MGS4 that nobody ever mentions.

    But for five hours of playing the game you get 12 hours of cutscenes, some of which are the most amazing ever created, most of which are complete cack. So let's get over the whole "most amazing game ever" crap because it wasn't.

    What amazes me about this list and the comments is a) the vitriolic and unprofessional comments made by the EG staff when discussing MGS4, and b) the fact anyone can read this site and think for one minute that EG tries to be controversial.

    The fact that the journalists on this site could be so angered by their own readers that they felt the need to lash out at them, shows them to be quite pathetic individuals. And 'controversial'? They certainly fell for the Fallout 3 hype and followed the script predictably enough, giving it 10/10. And the Fable II review is probably the worst I have seen on EG.

    This list is a joke - but this sort of thing always is. What has been revealed as a result of this list is what's truly shameful.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #83 3 years ago

    Fuck me, is "unprofessional" the Word Of The Day for December 29 on the 2008 Calendar For Idiots or something?

    NB "unprofessional" does NOT, in fact, mean "different to what I think".

  • JHuxley #84 3 years ago

    That so many readers were unable to parse his thoughts, to appreciate the nuance and contradictions in the experience suggests that Kojima's series primarily appeals to immature gamers

    Anyone who doesn't agree with us is puerile and Kojima just makes games that appeal to sweaty teenagers who masturbate!

    I exaggerate...but wow. Just WOW.

  • riz23 #85 3 years ago

    Cheers guys this is great!

  • ChadSexington #86 3 years ago

    Wii Fit? Fuck off.

  • Mudo #87 3 years ago

    I haven't played a single game placed from 50-21. I might have to look some of them up.

  • roz123 #88 3 years ago

    Im not surprised that big games are in really odd positions as they have to be a little bit unique compared to the other load of game websites. The thing thats annoying me is the difference in writing style the staff are using about the games that are in positions lower then expected. Like the quote J Huxley just mentioned. For most of the other games its i enjoyed this feature, i thought the game was great etc. For the ones that are lower then expected they are just saying some long winded bull that if you sum it up makes the person look like an idiot. For example

    Alec Meer: I really have no time for this. I once played it with the staff of a Nintendo magazine, who all seemed to be trapped in some sort of multi-orgasmic feedback loop for the entire duration, and I left like a visitor from another world. I slipped away quietly when no one was looking, fearful that clothes were about to be removed and ear-nibbling to commence.

    Summed up: I have no time for this, i saw people enjoying it and thought they were gay.

    I also think its a bit convinient that the first games on each of the daily lists are ones that will envoke a reaction. I guess if its the only new content on the site over the holidays you have to draw it out whilst keeping it interesting. I will probably get proved wrong tomorrow
    Edited by 2 at 29/12/08 @ 03:34

  • Moonprince #89 3 years ago

    Have to say rev, sometimes it's better not to say anything and just leave it be.

    You have made yourself look the tit in most of these posts :p

  • smelly #90 3 years ago

    It must be an unusual day.. and hell mustve finally frozen over..

    but i'm actually AGREEING with stuart campbell.

    I've never understood why gamers feel this need that reviewers should some how mother them and cuddle them and tell them everything about their choice in games/machine is right..

    Its a bit sad really.

    Now dont get me wrong, i'm not saying we the public shouldnt criticise the critics.. but to get upset because of something like this? Come on!

    I'd hate to think what would happen if a reviewer stated that the (insert console here.. but most likely the ps3) was a complete waste of anyones money (unless they bought it to watch movies on).

  • smelly #91 3 years ago

    "You have made yourself look the tit in most of these posts :p "


    No he hasnt.. he's talking complete sense.. it's the morons who are getting upset with him and arguing against common sense who are looking like tits..

    But then in the world of the internet forum.. it's always the majority who end up seeming correct - even when in a case like this they are wrong.


    EDIT: And believe me.. i'm one of stuarts biggest critics!
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 04:44

  • cheeseweasel #92 3 years ago

    (I'll hold myself back from saying that it is poncey to write the title in the native language when it is known worldwide by its translated title).

    Eh? How's that holding yourself back?

  • Rash' #93 3 years ago

    EG's explanation of how the list was constructed doesn't justify it's criminal offering. Mercs is judged to be higher the Smash bros... I (like the reviewers themselves, no doubt) call that bullshit. Fix the system.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 04:58

  • Rodney #94 3 years ago

    It is funny seeing people get upset because their precious favourite games are in the wrong place on an arbitrary list.

    Just because something places higher or lower than something else on this list, doesnt mean its better or worse. Do you really think the worth of something as subjective as a game can be quantified so precisely that its exact position on a list of the years top 50 can be determined?


    get over it, its just a bit of fun and its not your list any way, its Eurogamers list, so they cant exactly be wrong about their own favourites can they?

    I think as a nice little round up of some the years best titles its an excellent read. Its got me interested in a couple of games I had not even heard of before now.

  • Rodney #95 3 years ago

    .....Having said that, Eurogamer including WiiFit on their list of top 50 2008 games is a bit like Roger Ebert having Jade Goody's aerobics DVD on his list of top 50 DVD releases.

    It really is as crap as something like you would see on a late night 'mis'infomercial.




    Edited by 2 at 29/12/08 @ 05:47

  • Moonprince #96 3 years ago

    To be honest I was only briefly reading through the comments and happened to read his the most. I guess out of context he seems a tit. Perhaps if I was bothered enough to read the the rest I'd think otherwise.

    As its you, Smelly, saying his not, then I'll take your word for it. You can be funny at times.

    However! The talk of being a games reviewer for x amount of years and giving it the big man is retarded / gay / being a tit whatever. Like that matters for sht.

    If I were to give my name and what projects I've worked on in the games industry does that then mean every mofker should bow down..?

    Anyway, who cares. Next 10 games gogogo!

  • Obiwanshinobi #97 3 years ago

    Simon Parkin: Nobody's interested in the middle ground when it comes to polarising videogames. When it comes to MGS4 this is a shame because there is just as much of merit in this experience as there is to spoil it. In his fine, thoughtful review for Eurogamer, Oli nailed this tension with skill and eloquence. That so many readers were unable to parse his thoughts, to appreciate the nuance and contradictions in the experience suggests that Kojima's series primarily appeals to immature gamers.

    If mature gamers are those to whom obligatory autoerotic (especially in initial, overgrown parts) reviews by some reviewer used to appeal, then I'm not a mature gamer.

  • smelly #98 3 years ago

    The last (only) MGS game i ever played was on the original playstation.

    Even then i was amazed/stunned by the production values.. but felt the actual game was abut as enthrawling as playing pacman.

    Dont have a ps3.. dont want one.. am happy with my 360 (until it breaks down again) and wii (unless they spend a year not releasing anything on it) - so i doubt i'll ever play it!

  • smelly #99 3 years ago

    "My point was that the MSG4 commentary by Parkin was unprofessional in that he insulted his own consumer. "

    But gamers are retarded idiots.. you only have to read a games forum to know that!

    (or look at the endless carbon copy fps dross they keep buying)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #100 3 years ago

    However! The talk of being a games reviewer for x amount of years and giving it the big man is retarded / gay / being a tit whatever. Like that matters for sht.

    It does if the context is (a) being asked how old I am, and (b) debating how "review based magazines" do things. I think in that instance it's legitimate to point out that perhaps you have rather more experience of knowing what goes on at "review based magazines" than the person attacking you. You, on the other hand, are flinging insulting names around while admitting you haven't actually read the comments properly. Who's really the tit there?

  • Daymare #101 3 years ago

    So, it's perfectly okay for "us" to insult people (and EG staff, on a regular basis) in the forums and comments sections, hidding behind anonymity, but when one professional writer has the guts to do it (on a very special occasion), some people act like he raped their mums? How audacious, to put it mildly.

    I, on the other hand, applaud Mr. Parkin for being so "reactionary" to that monumental MGS4 review comments thread full of IMMATURE GAMERS complaining over a score of a game they haven't even played yet at the time.

  • Obiwanshinobi #102 3 years ago

    I, on the other hand, applaud Mr. Parkin for being so "reactionary" to that monumental MGS4 review comments thread full of IMMATURE GAMERS complaining over a score of a game they haven't even played yet at the time.

    Does being first to moan about the score of the game they haven't played yet at the time makes them those to whom the whole series appeals primarily?

  • Daymare #103 3 years ago

    Does being first to moan about the score of the game they haven't played yet at the time makes them those to whom the whole series appeals primarily?

    No, I presume that was an intentional hyperbole (based on limited sample of vocal MGS fans) but I'm mature enough not to feel insulted by it. ;) (I haven't played MGS4 yet but judging by my love for the 3rd part, I will/would probably love it too)

  • coolbritannia #104 3 years ago

    lol @ this thread. Rev, you've called Eurogamers scoring integrity into question in the past have you not? Why not let remo have his say like you wanted to have yours? [link url=http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/swiz2/swiz2.h tm
    ]http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.co...[/link]

    remo: While defending your right to complain, I disagree with your argument. Metal Gear IS an 8/10 game, Eurogamer just had the balls to say it. +1 to them I say.

    And I'm a Halo 3 fanboy, but had no problem with them putting it at 7 (I think) last year. The argument for all 6 games ahead of it was compelling. Except for Zelda. OoT FTW.

  • spudsbuckley #105 3 years ago

    Metal Gear Solid 4 below FarCry2 :D

    This website is a joke now. Quick, do another pointless face-off article or interview some indie dev that no-one gives two fucks about! Or report some news 3 or 4 days later than any other site!
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 09:20

  • Obiwanshinobi #106 3 years ago

    Well, I live in a country of violent football fans, where you can easily get the impression that being football fan is more about insulting and hurting people than enjoying football itself. Thus I could make an exaggeration saying that football appeals primarily to immature dickheads and so do Pro Evolution Soccer, being adressed primarily to football fans. God only knows how truthful it would be. Nevertheless, making such statements is neither polite nor mature. Writting overintellectualized review, knowing that it will annoy many readers is one kind of provocation. Tenuously insinuating, just to "watch the monkey get hurt" is much meaner provocation.

  • spudsbuckley #107 3 years ago

    Would Ball in a Cup make it in here too, since it's technically a 'game'>

    It'd get a three page review, a dev interview and a face off between the big three cup-in-ball manufactuerers.

    All on the back of a confusing 6/10 score in a review written by Kieron that claims it redefines the artform that is gaming.

  • Dizzy #108 3 years ago

    "This website is a joke now. Quick, do another pointless face-off article or interview some indie dev that no-one gives two fucks about! "

    I think it is best that emo whiners like you f*ck off to GS or IGN and leave EG to us "indie" lovers.

  • coolbritannia #109 3 years ago

    What I don't get is WHY review scores mean so much to people. I loved Steel Batallion on the xbox, it gets an 11/10 from me. All other reviews that did not score 11/10 be damned. However, I did not feel the need to launch an assaults on the internets, i was too busy enjoying the game....

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #110 3 years ago

    Rev, you've called Eurogamers scoring integrity into question in the past have you not? Why not let remo have his say like you wanted to have yours?

    How am I stopping him from doing that? I'm just pointing out his hypocrisy, tendency to flatly contradict himself every other post, and the fact that he in fact has no idea how reviews in magazines are conducted.

  • David_Richardson #111 3 years ago

    What I don't get is WHY review scores mean so much to people. I loved Steel Batallion on the xbox, it gets an 11/10 from me. All other reviews that did not score 11/10 be damned. However, I did not feel the need to launch an assaults on the internets, i was too busy enjoying the game....

    Because insecure people need confirmation from others that the choices they make are the correct ones. I spend a lot of time on this site, and enjoy that time greatly, yet if I stopped enjoying it I would leave for pastures new. But some people just like to have something to bitch and moan about.

    Anybody who has become even the slightest bit irate about this list in any way needs to get a grip. And MGS fanboys, if it makes you feel any better go and write your own list, putting your very favourite game of the year at the top. Or how about I do it for you?:

    1. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
    2. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
    3. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
    4. Jumper

    I've never played it but I've taken a hit for you, do you feel better now?

  • jonsaan #112 3 years ago

    Personally I don't like MGS much. It's a marmite thing. but then, so is Fallout 3. If anything, even more so.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 10:29

  • jonsaan #113 3 years ago

    Exactly the same could be said of Fallout3.

    Possibly the most un fun game I have ever played. More like a chore than a game.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 10:32

  • merkdot #114 3 years ago

    not really, unless you extend it to every game ever. You could say the same about Smash Bros or Peggle.

    MGS4 was the culmination of a canon, and spends as much time telling that story as it does offering actual gameplay. FO3 was at least mostly gameplay.

  • Shabtai #115 3 years ago

    The fact EG said before-hand that their Top50 system basiclly sucks, doesn't mean we shouldn't point it out when it gets more and more absurd.

  • Farzlepot #116 3 years ago

    Never played a Fallout before, and I picked up and played the third instalment with great joy. I got to grips with the overall story and the setting pretty quickly, so I knew what was going on around me and whenever an element with some backstory was introduced, it was explained adequately enough for me to understand it.

    Never played an MGS before. Could I just pick up and play the fourth and understand what was going on? Or is it more like Lost or Battlestar Galactica in that folks who haven't played the first few won't have a clue what's going on? From what I've heard, I suspect it's the latter. Which is by no means a bad thing, but it does somewhat limit its audience more than Fallout 3 does. It's not really a valid comparison.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 10:37

  • jonsaan #117 3 years ago

    Insstalling Redlynx trials right now:)

  • jonsaan #118 3 years ago

    Yes you could Farzelpot. You can skip the stupid cut scenes anyway.

  • Farzlepot #119 3 years ago

    Given that the cutscenes are apparently quite sizeable, if I skipped them wouldn't that damage my understanding of the story even more?

  • Widge #120 3 years ago

    "MGS is for MGS fans, and MGS fans only."

    Which is true on many levels, its the grand hurrah for the fans, which is probably why so many loved it and want to stand up for it. The fact that its in the top 30 shows its a good game but in many peoples minds its a #1, but find me anyone who will universally agree with the order of the list eh?

    By this, I'm reckoning that Valkyria is going to chart higher, which it should. I love my MGS but VC has been my 2nd favourite game this year behind Fallout 3.

  • Obiwanshinobi #121 3 years ago

    It is not a fun game to play in any way, it's just a method of delivering fan service to Kojima. That was once the 'cool' thing to do, but MGS fans must be a bit out of touch. Games are about gameplay now, not personality worship.

    I couldn't care less about this list and I didn't even bother to read the review of MGS4 when it came along, as I'll play the game anyway, sooner or later. What I don't understand is why someone sometimes tries to persuade me that I don't actually enjoy playing MGS. I really do, especially boss fights. Heck, for me Halo is a far cry from being fun, but I can believe that somebody somewhere enjoys playing it. You can call it a "willing suspension of disbelief", but for me its at least thinkable.

  • Scimarad #122 3 years ago

    "Given that the cutscenes are apparently quite sizeable, if I skipped them wouldn't that damage my understanding of the story even more? "

    Although I was extremely impressed by MGS4 as an actual game, I've come to the conclusion that the story (in all the MGS games) really is an incoherent load of old crap. It's got characters, relationships and scenes I like in it but as a whole it really is total nonsense.

    If you really want to follow the story you can always read the database thing. Easier still, Gametrailers did some great retrospectives on the Metal Gear series.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 10:54

  • Kiigan #123 3 years ago

    Simon Parkin said:

    "That so many readers were unable to parse his thoughts, to appreciate the nuance and contradictions in the experience suggests that Kojima's series primarily appeals to immature gamers."

    Oh please. You seem like a nice chap Simon, so I'll just gently suggest you read your comment again give yourself the time to "appreciate the nuance" of just how obnoxious it sounds.

    Certainly, if you could somehow magically assess the audience for a game based on its Eurogamer reader comments, you'd have to conclude that every game reviewed here is primarily geared towards the educationally subnormal.

  • kangarootoo #124 3 years ago

    In summary, EG are rarely unprofessional. Rev Stu almost always is.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #125 3 years ago

    Does that sound like intelligence from the pen of a geniune journalist? No it doesn't does it

    Nice typing. Now answer my question - do you admire the enthusiasm and honesty of Mr Walker's 10/10 reviews of Japanese puzzle games, or do you think they don't deserve such scores and he's only doing it to join the journalistic elite? Because you've said both things, but only one of them can be true.

  • strelok #126 3 years ago


    Certainly, if you could somehow magically assess the audience for a game based on its Eurogamer reader comments, you'd have to conclude that every game reviewed here is primarily geared towards the educationally subnormal.

    This.



  • Sulphur #127 3 years ago

    Heh. EG, you bastards, you knew what this article would do. I'm all for Kieron re-reviewing MGS4, because it'd engender an even more hilarious comments thread than his Bioshock defense. Do it, EG, you know you have to.

    And for the record? I liked Bioshock and MGS4. But I like hilarious internet argumentation even better!

  • Katsumoto #128 3 years ago

    I wonder if the sort of people who are like "zomg game X was at 29 and not 48 where it obviously should have been" are actually really normal people in real life? You meet them down the pub and have a good time, chat about all sorts and laugh merrily. Then they go home, turn on the PC, and transform.. into something monstrous?

  • Cloudane #129 3 years ago

    I disagree with the very low placement for MGS4 but after all, it is Eurogamer's Top 50 Games of 2008, not ours.

  • Feet #130 3 years ago

    @ Remo: I don't think there's ever been a correlation between ones intelligence and age and ones tendency to use insults. They are not mutually exclusive. For the record I think you are quite welcome to disagree with the one contributor who called MGS4 fans immature for thinking the game appealing. By all means do. But him saying that isn't unproffessional at all, it's his opinion and an entirely acceptable piece of criticism of the game, though you may believe him wrong. Bottomline, he is quite entititled to share it.

    Furthermore I can confirm that I have enjoyed Pic Pic as much as I've enjoyed Left 4 Dead or indeed any game this year, and therefore I'm pleased to see it make the list somewhere.

    Now please stop throwing stuid accusations around, or alternatively take your obstinate idiocy and fuck off to some other corner of the internet you pathetic twerp.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 11:57

  • orakio #131 3 years ago

    you all have to do a lot better to reach 2000 posts this time around. come on now, team!

  • Shinji #132 3 years ago

    I was disturbed by thhe unprofessionalism of insulting a large part of your user base in a very childish attack.

    If that kind of mild offhand comment is enough to "disturb" you, I'm guessing you spend a lot of your life in floods of tears at the unrelenting harshness of the world. It must be tough for a sensitive soul like yourself to make it through a world not entirely composed of cotton wool :(

  • Petulant_Radish #133 3 years ago

    Oh you guys...

  • TheBrow #134 3 years ago

    Its a marmite game that some people love and some people hate (says me, needlessly elaborating on the (very) nature of marmite). As such it polled in the middle of EG's Top 50. Not entiirely surprising really.

    Personally I loved it too, but at times it DROVE ME SPARE! But on balance I loved the game and, although I couldn't understand much of what was going on in the cutscenes, and they WERE too long, I could appreciate the style of them.

  • TheBrow #135 3 years ago

    You're proably right Vorlon-man, its just that MGS seems more marmite-y than most.

  • DFawkes #136 3 years ago

    Tetris should win. It's so close to perfect it should win every year! Game Boy version, of course. Not 2008, but it'd get less stick.

  • Sulphur #137 3 years ago

    Wait. You mean people actually like Marmite?

  • GamesConnoisseur #138 3 years ago

    I did think the 8/10 review was spot on, I enjoyed MSG4 but skipped through the cutscenes on second and third go and realised the game was left...with something ripped out especially in the middle act even then not prepared to sit through the same cut scenes over and over.

    Perhaps its a question of where a crowd anticipated and salivating to watch The Frank Miller & Zack Synder's 'Watchmen' but a proportion of the crowd doesnt mind going back to cinema for X times to watch the film again and again? Others the more sensible lots knowing that the magic is mostly gone except for the 'most memorable moments' which is still preserved even after the first time you have seen the film? But to watch the whole lot of the 'film'?

    People who really felt EG got up their noses and that the site is so biased and 'unprofessional' go on, go over to IGN, Gamespot, 1UP or the other sites you feels more suited to you. Perhaps EG is not for the sensitive types and needs to carry a health warning!
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 14:46

  • Sulphur #139 3 years ago

    General consensus ftw!!! It's better to feel your opinion's been validated by the gaming populace at large, innit?

    What's that? EG isn't even a major chunk of the population? Oh, you kidder, you.

  • GitSomE_UK #140 3 years ago

    You're proably right Vorlon-man, its just that MGS seems more marmite-y than most.

    Maybe due to the Parkin factor, namely "Kojima's series primarily appeals to immature gamers." ;-P

    /Swivels in chair laughing and paves the way for another 1820 comments

  • GitSomE_UK #141 3 years ago

    +1 GamesConnoisseur

    As much as I enjoyed MGS4 I'd have to wait a year at least to play it again and sit through the cutscenes. I'm happy with my first pass and remember what I enjoyed.

    Far too many people getting over excited about the annual EG list. However, it just wouldn't be Xmas without the EG annual list comments shenanigans.

  • Masarin #142 3 years ago

    Rev. Stuart Campbell: +10
    remowilliamsuk: -10

    I don't feel the need to explain my scoring policy so I'm evil.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #143 3 years ago

    Actually I'm pretty sure its demonstrable that the consensus view of MGS4 is that its extremely positive

    Consensus of who, though? The people who bought it? In statistics, they call that a self-selecting sample and discount the results as unrepresentative of the wider demographic. By any numerical measure, the vast majority of gamers didn't want MGS4 and didn't buy it. A large chunk of even those who did buy it didn't like it. It's widely available for Ł20 nowadays on the High Street, but the shelves still groan with unsold preowned copies (at least 20 in my fairly small local Gamestation). There's your consensus.

  • WoRX #144 3 years ago

    MGS 4 is 30. ?!

    I'm off from EG!

  • merkdot #145 3 years ago

    on balance, 30th seems a bit low, but not ridiculous. Definitely a slick and epic undertaking, which in itself demands respect regardless of your metric for evaluating the hobby. I didn't buy it or fancy it at all, but pretending that it's not a major title of 2008 is bordering on holocaust denial.

  • secombe #146 3 years ago

    Brilliant comments thread, just spent 10 minutes reading it (having no agenda, I don't own a 360 or PS3 or have ever played MGS) and as always, it was a cracking read. The irony of an 'immature' comment and then nearly 200 hate filled replies wasn't lost on me.

    For the record, I've now suggested Pic Pic to 4 people, and they are all horribly addicted to it. In the past few years only Zoo Keeper has come close to appealing to almost everyone I have suggested play it. A 10/10 could not be more deserved, simply because it's basically faultless. It's as far from an obscure title as it's possible to be, if anything it's more 'casual' than the likes of Wii Sports or Wii Fit.

  • merkdot #147 3 years ago

    It's got a HUGE rabid fanbase. That makes it a prime target for all those who want to act 'cool' and 'hate whats popular'. These people will go out of their way to downrate and discredit the game because they are petty and smallminded.

    I think it's also partly because people will react with incredulity to something that has a lot of hype but that they don't get. Just because you might then react to their reaction with defensive paranoia doesn't change the fact that no game is universally enjoyed, and if you choose to ram it down peoples throats then you should expect some to vomit it back up.

  • Farzlepot #148 3 years ago

    Farticus: maybe, just maybe, the Halo detractors simply have a differing opinion to yourself, much as you have a differing opinion to the MGS lovers?

    Personally I don't quite 'get' the Halo loveathon that has endured since the original emerged from the vaults of Bungie. The first was OK, though admittedly I was a devout PC gamer at the time having not touched a console since the Mega Drive. The second I didn't play and thus couldn't comment, as it only came out on PC for Windows Vista (perhaps that was the supreme version of the franchise and I missed out), while the third... adequate fun for a while, but otherwise meh.

    Ever since playing the first instalment I've viewed the series as something worth picking up when the price comes down, but not something worth queueing outside of GAME at midnight for. And yet, bizarrely enough, people disagree with me enough to queue outside of GAME at midnight for it.

    I could go to the extreme of calling you wrong, or calling you a fanboy, or calling you 'immature' even, but I'm not going to. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

  • spudsbuckley #149 3 years ago

    So has anyone started a poll on what Wii shovelware/flash game/XBLA-basically-a-fancy-flash game/indie game is going to be number one?

    I vote Braid.

  • Bremenacht #150 3 years ago

    The holy cow is kicked again.

  • Trigga_Tybalt #151 3 years ago

    "Kristan Reed: Lovely game world, solid gameplay, soulless characters. Coming to this after Fallout 3 was a massive comedown, but I'm determined to come back to it."

    uh-oh. i've got this on my shelf waiting for me to finish fallout 3...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #152 3 years ago

    As to the "self-selecting sample" argument, basically if you haven't played the game your opinion is null and void anyway. Forming an opinion without playing the thing says more about the observer than the object, sorry.

    I haven't formed an opinion. I haven't made any comments about MGS4 because I haven't played it because I'd rather saw my own legs off at the knees. The point is that your assertion about "consensus" is entirely fallacious, because even among AAA-starved PS3 owners, around 80% haven't bought MGS4. One has to presume that's because they don't want it, since it's so widely available at a low price. The fact is, the vast majority of gamers - even the vast majority of PS3 owners - either actively dislike the game or don't give a crap about it. The people who like it enough to buy it are a small minority, and as such don't get to be a "consensus" of anything.

  • merkdot #153 3 years ago

    well, you could argue that give how starved the PS3 was, that it might have more of a begrudging sample base than it might have otherwise had, especially given your own evidence of the 20+ used copies sitting on the shelves, but given how little any of this matters, I've already typed more words about it than my carefactor threshold demands.

  • coomber #154 3 years ago

    "I haven't made any comments about MGS4 because I haven't played it because I'd rather saw my own legs off at the knees."

    That would be a comment, dickhead.

  • merkdot #155 3 years ago

    @fart

    were you born yesterday? MGS was a huge Playstation franchise when Halo was still an Apple Mac project.

    Kids these days, /smh

  • gypsumfantastic #156 3 years ago

    So, MGS4 scored low down the EG rankings because most EG commentators thought it was shit.

    It seems the game buying public concurred, so it remains on store shelves, abundant, cheap and unloved.

    So, if we're all in agreement, whence the controversy?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #157 3 years ago

    That would be a comment, dickhead.

    A comment about the previous MGS games, though, not MGS4.

    Um, pooface.

  • gypsumfantastic #158 3 years ago

    The Revd:

    If you'd rather saw your own legs off than play previous MGS games, you'd probably want to have your nuts chewed off by a Laplander rather than play MGS4.

    It does everything hateful that all MGSx did, but more willfully and determinedly than the rest of the Kojima ludicrous incomprehensathons put together.
    Edited by 2 at 29/12/08 @ 16:14

  • Mudo #159 3 years ago

    There's an unhealthy amount of strawmanning in a lot of these arguments. I can't believe I've actually sat and read them all.

  • roz123 #160 3 years ago

    Surely if you'd rather saw your knees off then you have formed an opinion.

    dont give up the day job

  • spudsbuckley #161 3 years ago

    Ooohhhh, THAT Stuart Campbell.

    Yeah, games and the games industry in general has moved on and you haven't. Sorry, buddy.

    Stick to the retro stuff.

  • ChrisS #162 3 years ago

    Where's 20-11?

  • VandelayIndustries #163 3 years ago

    Farticus

    "My point was that MGS doesnt attract the hate because it's niche, low profile. Halo is massivley more successful than MGS and has a considerably larger fanbase but is perceived as lower quality because the opposition is much more vocal.

    I'm using Halo as an example and really dont want to get into a discussion about the game's merits."

    &

    "MGS: 20m sales over 20-odd games, highest sale 5.59m (MGS 1)

    Halo: 24m sales over 3 games, highest sales 8.8m (Halo 3)

    Learn to get your facts straight before mouthing off, it just makes you look stupid."

    So the difference between a niche series and a commercially successful one comes down to 4m in sales? Righto.

    And for my part, I've never played the previous MGS games and still thoroughly enjoyed part 4.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 16:55

  • el_pollo_diablo #164 3 years ago

    I for one would just like to state how completely amazing Amiga Power was. Rich Pelley's intros to the cheats section were the funniest little pieces of nonsense this side of Oink!, which is high praise indeed. I still have a stack back at my mum and dads house because I know one day I'm going to NEED to go back and re-read the Apidya review.

  • The-Bodybuilder #165 3 years ago

    Who the F*ck is Stuart Campbell? Is he some kind of gaming celeb?

  • cyber_nicco #166 3 years ago

    Hey, if anyone has read this far and is in America, please note that you can download Trials 2 from Steam for only $2.49 until January 2nd. Perhaps there is a similar deal in other parts of the world - I don't know - but this is a deal that shouldn't be missed.

  • Salato #167 3 years ago

    Have to agree that there have been a lot of terrible comments.

    Personally MGS4 was certainly my GOTY, definitely the game I most enjoyed playing this year. But I still found it highly amusing the huge fanboy backlash against eurogamer after the 8/10 review, and now after the quite low placement of 30 in the staff top 50. I disagree with both the score and the placement, but why should I care that much? Just because some at eurogamer and others have a different opinion it doesn’t affect me and my enjoyment of the game, even if criticisms include quite stupid “immature” comments.

    On the other side however there seems to be an even more obnoxious and just as obsessive group who seek every opportunity to voice their intense dislike for MGS. Sure I can understand people hating such a marmite game, but is it really necessary for some to spend such a lot of time making numerous comments about a game you hate? There are a lot of games I really don’t like, but I don’t feel the need to spend my time presenting that opinion in comments repeatedly.

    Overall people generally need to lighten up about the whole thing, as it’s getting quite ridiculous.

  • djcool3005 #168 3 years ago

    lmao i have to agree with the mgs fans. Why the f*** is it only 30?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #169 3 years ago

    Since when is a game expected to appeal to 100% of its user-base? Or to satisfy 100% of its purchasers? What an utterly ridiculous assertion to make!

    I'm not the one making assertions about "consensus", love.

    The majority of gamers aren't interested in MGS4.

    The majority of PS3 owners aren't interested in MGS4.

    There's no evidence to show that even the majority of people who WERE interested enough in MGS4 to pay for it with their own money actually enjoyed it, though the speed with which it fell out of the charts and the anecdotal evidence of the easy availability of copies for Ł20 so soon after release suggest that it hasn't been received all that well after the initial outpouring of pent-up fanboy spunk.

    None of this proves it's a good or bad game. Personally I have no opinion on that, though I have a strong suspicion. What it proves is that making assertions about there being a consensus saying it's great is arrant drivel. Perhaps you ought to go and look up what "consensus" means.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #170 3 years ago

    Yeah, games and the games industry in general has moved on and you haven't. Sorry, buddy.

    Hmm, you perhaps ought to take a look at the sales figures for the Wii and DS compared to the 360, PS3 and PSP.

  • merkdot #171 3 years ago

    @farticus

    5.59million is niche? and a difference of 3 million is huge?

    considering this is Konami vs. Microsoft, you're really pulling shit out of your ass now :)

    lol, time to go and study typical sales of games.

  • merkdot #172 3 years ago

    oh, and VGCharts isn't a good place to pull "facts" from anyway :)

  • coomber #173 3 years ago

    "A comment about the previous MGS games, though, not MGS4."

    Look at what you wrote again. Pay special attention to the part where you mention MGS4. Then get back to clicking on your own awful website to try and build up your hits.

  • spudsbuckley #174 3 years ago

    'Hmm, you perhaps ought to take a look at the sales figures for the Wii and DS compared to the 360, PS3 and PSP.'

    What's that got to do with you being irrelevant now?

  • SeesThroughAll #175 3 years ago

    Who the F*ck is Stuart Campbell? Is he some kind of gaming celeb?

    ^^^^
    This.

    :)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #176 3 years ago

    I haven't at any point claimed to be "relevant", dearie. I'm just another comments thread spod. But man, you really couldn't have picked a more fuckwitted time to be claiming that the games industry has "moved on" from "retro stuff"(*). Games this generation are the most "retro" they've been for about 20 years, with the accessible, largely 2D catalogue of the DS and Wii generating sales that dwarf those of the "modern" formats. (Who are themselves, of course, courting the "retro" crowd with XBLA and PSN, showcasing hugely successful and popular games like Geometry Wars 2 and Super Stardust.) EG has given 10/10s this year to games like Bangai-o Spirits, Braid and Pic Pic, which are massively "retro".

    * (The use of "retro" to refer condescendingly to simple, accessible games does, obviously, mark you as a grade-A pompous Edge-reading fuckrag, but I might as well speak to you in language you understand to keep things simple.)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #177 3 years ago

    There is no contradiction in my post.

    Of course there is, you feeble-witted tool.

    You claimed you admired John's honesty and enthusiasm in giving Slitherlink and Pic Pic 10/10.

    You then attacked EG for giving "obscure Japanese puzzle games" 10/10 marks they didn't deserve, just for the sake of being different and "elite".

    Those two statements can't possibly both be true, since the ONLY writer on EG who's given obscure Japanese puzzle games 10/10 is John Walker, with Slitherlink and Pic Pic. So do you admire his honesty, or is he dishonestly inflating their scores beyond what they deserve just for the sake of being different?

    Which is it, you hopelessly thick fucking twat?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #178 3 years ago

    Oh dear. Are you so desperate now that you've resorted to denying the very words you said?

    "You love to review all the obscure Japanese puzzlers and give them 10/10 when they don't deserve it to prove you are the journalistic elite "

    Specifically puzzlers. Specifically 10/10. No mention of "for example".

    Which games do you mean, if not Slitherlink and Pic Pic? Do enlighten us.

  • TheBrow #179 3 years ago

    Gosh there sure are some clever insults in this thread!

  • spudsbuckley #180 3 years ago

    No wonder you're a free-lancer Stuart. No magazine or website would want a clown like you as a staff-writer. You probabaly end up being given work because the janitor or the tea-boy are too busy to write a review or an article so they're forced call you up.

    I also admired the way you pretty much went straight to personal insults once people started calling you out for being an old washed up hack.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #181 3 years ago

    Oh, and for the record I used 'consensus' in reference to individuals who have voiced an opinion (i.e pro/amateur critics and users who voted in the EG public choice top 50)

    ie a self-selecting sample.

    MGS fans in "liking MGS game" shock!

  • evilboo #182 3 years ago

    This is the best comments thread ever.

    I am on Rev's side because Remo said Eurogamer was 'unprofessional' because one of the reviewers made an innocuous comment about how gamers are a bit immature (really? gamers?!?) and because he called rev a 'cunt' in the 51st post which was a bit early in the day for such harsh language IMO.

    Also saying eurogamer want to be 'elitist' is a bit feeble. Everyone that reads eurogamer regularly knows it's a bit smarter than most gaming sites and publishes thoughtful writing rather than just hype (apart from the previews). That's why we read it! I would take elitist in this context as a compliment.

    This spat seems to still come down to people crying because their favourite game got a lower position than they felt it warranted. I did enjoy mgs3 though .. but MGS games just seem to bring out the devil in people. It's a game that seems to bring out a higher than normal degree of commitment in players (all those hours watching cut scenes).

    In summary I think if you bitch about what a site says about your fav game and call the website / writers names then you are a dick.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #183 3 years ago

    I also admired the way you pretty much went straight to personal insults once people started calling you out for being an old washed up hack.

    Actually, what you mean to say there is that I constructed a reasoned explanation (with numerous specific examples) for why it was idiotic of you to claim that gaming had "moved on" from "retro stuff" when it is in fact plainly moving back in that direction, which embarrassed you, and caused you to fall back on the traditional loser crybaby's whine about name-calling. Easy mistake to make, I won't hold it against you.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #184 3 years ago

    By Japanese puzzlers that is meant to be the extreme example. That is quite obvious to everyone but you.

    I see. You confused us all a bit by using obscure Japanese puzzle games that scored 10/10 as your "example" when in fact you apparently didn't mean obscure Japanese puzzle games that scored 10/10 at all, but something completely different.

    So, just to finally clear it up for us simple-minded idiots who don't quite understand - Slitherlink and Pic Pic worth 10/10, or not?

  • SchumiF1 #185 3 years ago

    Wow, Eurogamer really has become a joke. I remember reading Oli's joke review back in June. It sure was one f*cking big joke.

    And Halo 3 and GTA4 are 10s, right? Yeah, right...

  • spudsbuckley #186 3 years ago

    'Easy mistake to make, I won't hold it against you.'

    I don't give a shit if you hold it against me. You're irrelevant to me.

  • secombe #187 3 years ago

    What does Pik Pik do that is so revolutionary? Is it a huge leap forward in what gaming can do as a medium? Will it appeal to the majority of players?

    Why does a game need to revolutionary or a leap forward to deserve a ten? If anything it should be applauded for its honesty, it's a simple, accessible, addictive and enjoyable game. Yes it absolutely will appeal to the majority of games players simply because it strips things back to the basics.

    I had my doubts, but I ordered it for the other half as a Christmas present...she's hardly dragged herself away from the thing since. After a day I decided to see what the fuss was about, 3hrs later I ordered my own copy (her Brother has nicked the other save slot on hers, he is also addicted), I've since bought a copy for my Mum...she won't leave the bloody thing alone.

    It's quite clear why it got to a 10, having played it. It does nothing wrong, it's perfectly balanced, it's varied, it's absolutely massive (talking days, not hours) and it suits the DS perfectly. I would never claim it's the greatest game ever, but it's certainly without fault, and therefore fully deserving of full marks.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 19:23

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #188 3 years ago

    But then you are a complete retard as evidenced by your photo here:
    http://im g147.imageshack.us/my.php?image...

    Oh, and by the by - I might be a complete retard, but at least I can post a working link. Little tip - PHP links don't tend to work, because they're scripts, you useless arsewipe. This is the one you want:

    http://im g147.imageshack.us/img147/3209/...

  • botherer #189 3 years ago

    remo,

    You're an odd fellow. You have, without any ambiguity, claimed two entirely opposite things. You said that my reviews of Japanese puzzle games were deliberately given inflated scores to gain attention for both the site, and for me, explaining that I wrote them to become the "journalistic elite". You later said you admire my reviews, and imply you don't disagree with them. They are obviously opposites, and one of them cannot be what you think.

    What I suggest has happened here is you made your outlandish claim that EG was inflating scores, and then it got personal when the writer responsible for the only reviews that met your description (there was no "for example", you were quite specific) responded to you. Surprised, you decided to change your argument so much you stated the opposite, but attempted to reassert your original position by aiming it at unspecified "others" on the site. Sadly, there was no room for this move, since the only person to have given 10s to Japanese puzzle games this year was me.

    Along the way you've thrown out some remarkably inaccurate statements, that you've quickly ignored once informed people have corrected you. And you've questioned my integrity personally, and that of everyone working on this site, with no evidence. That doesn't make you look very good.

    More so, I'd like to suggest that comments like,

    "And you insult Edge? Looking at some of your 'work', I am amazed you even have the nerve (or ability) to type their name.
    Did they turn you down too old man?"

    aren't exactly helping you. Stuart has certainly called you (someone he doesn't know) some rude names, and he perhaps should not have done that. Of course, he's only referring to your comments, since that's all he knows of you. You are sinking to a depth so much lower, and it's quite ugly. Your remarkably offensive behaviour does rather betray the fact that you realise you've messed up a bit. I think it would be slightly more graceful, and gracious, were you to apologise to me for slandering my professionalism, and to admit that you were talking complete nonsense with your previous claims. It's rather inelegant when you resort to misquoting yourself. Pretending you were talking "in general" when you very specifically referred to a specific genre and indeed specific reviews - well, it makes you look a bit silly. Of course, and please don't let this be the only thing you respond to, you could name some other specific examples of this general behaviour to evidence your claim.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #190 3 years ago

    So the 92-94% metacritic/game-rankings average is purely the result of fanboys loving it up?

    Well, duh. After all, imagine the shrieking fuss that would be made by forum dolts like you if any publication gave the MGS4 review to a writer who didn't like MGS games.

  • botherer #191 3 years ago

    spudsbuckley - Stuart went straight for the insults long before nasty little twerps like you started your peculiar attempts to undermine his career. Please get your facts straight.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #192 3 years ago

    I don't give a shit if you hold it against me. You're irrelevant to me.

    Then we have something in common. Meanwhile, got anything to say about how your poorly-formed excuse for an argument's been destroyed, or are you just going to insult me, whine about being called names in return, and then run away to hide behind your comedy internet pseudonym? Because either's fine with me.

  • SchumiF1 #193 3 years ago

    Eurogamer, you proved your worth! Good bye!

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #194 3 years ago

    I knew you would know the right way to do it, because your website looks so nice and works so well.

    Don't mention it, my pleasure.

    Now, Slitherlink and Pic Pic - 10/10, or not?

  • spudsbuckley #195 3 years ago

    'Meanwhile, got anything to say about how your poorly-formed excuse for an argument's been destroyed'

    I hasn't really. Every post you make just goes to prove how out of touch you are.

    Quick, insult me more. That seems to make you think you've 'won'.

    So..... how much do you get unemployment benefit-wise nowadays?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #196 3 years ago

    I hasn't really.

    Hasn't you?

    It seems to me like you claimed that anyone who wrote chiefly about "retro"-style games was irrelevant, yet that type of game is clearly making an enormous comeback, most strikingly demonstrated by the success of the DS and Wii. It also seems to me that you came in bellowing about how I wasn't relevant, when I've never actually claimed for a second that I was. So what part of your argument is it that's holding up satisfactorily, in your view?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #197 3 years ago

    Christ mate, you've got an inflated sense of self importance.
    I'm not even writing about you.

    So you were referring to someone ELSE'S 10/10 reviews of obscure Japanese puzzle games?

    Come on, love - Slitherlink and Pic Pic, 10/10 or not?

  • spudsbuckley #198 3 years ago

    ' It also seems to me that you came in bellowing about how I wasn't relevant, when I've never actually claimed for a second that I was.'

    Of course you didn't say that. Who would?

    I'm just interpreting your posts that way. Maybe i'm wrong but your not doing yourself any favours by insulting anyone who disagrees with you. You're coming off as a self important douche.

  • secombe #199 3 years ago

    I think we're deep into that Internet only phenomenon of someone realising they've been caught out, but refusing to concede/apologise (tis the Internet after all, apologies don't exist) and so we enter a vicious cycle of ignoring what they've said previously, clinging on to the one small thing they said that may still have a point, and generally throwing childish insults around...all the while claiming to be grown up.

    The best bit, despite the constantly moving goalposts set by Mr remowilliiamsuk, all of his previous comments are there in pixels for us all to see, which makes his amusing "comebacks" all the more entertaining.

    The internet, god bless it.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #200 3 years ago

    "Is that so fucking hard to understand? "

    Apparently. So, just to recap for us slowpokes - when you said

    "You love to review all the obscure Japanese puzzlers and give them 10/10 when they don't deserve it to prove you are the journalistic elite"

    when the only person who'd given any obscure Japanese puzzlers 10/10 in EG was John Walker:

    - you weren't talking about obscure Japanese puzzlers.

    - you definitely weren't talking about any that had got 10/10 and didn't deserve it, because you have no opinion on the only two that have ever notched such a score, having not even played one of them.

    - you definitely weren't talking about John Walker, because when he gives 10/10 to obscure Japanese puzzlers you think that's just peachy.

    That's right, isn't it?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #201 3 years ago

    So, to recap: You haven't played it, you don't want to play it, and the inference is that anyone who (God forbid) DOES like it, is either an idiot, a paid shill, or a shrieking fanboy dolt. And your scientifically, ideologically-sound rationale for this is...

    Congratulations. You're a hateful little bigot. You don't like the idea of something so your response is to shit all over it, sight unseen.

    Wow. You got all that from me quietly pointing out that your definition of "consensus" was wrong, and expressing no opinion on a game I haven't played and have no interest in?

    You might have some issues, dear.

  • botherer #202 3 years ago

    remo, your goalposts move like a bouncy ball in a tumble dryer!

    Come on, back down. Surely you're ashamed of the bit where you shouted "spastic"?

  • secombe #203 3 years ago

    moving the goalposts? Don't think so somehow.
    I like the fact I try to have a geniune subject to bring up for discussion, whereas Rev just wants to insult all that come along - and you think I am the idiot?

    Well, being blessed with the ability to read (useful for viewing your previous comments in this very section, try it) I would say it's pretty clear that you've knotted yourself up into a horrible, horrible mess. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that, I would be the first to admit that Mr Campbell uses a sledgehammer approach, but his point that you've completely contradicted yourself on more than one occasion (and personally insulted the reviewer, along the way) is irrefutable.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #204 3 years ago

    I wasn't even aware that there were any other 'obscure japanese puzzlers' reviewed by Walker when I wrote about it in the Pik Pik thread.
    It was a good example of an obscure genre and EG's bias towards them when they review games.

    A "bias" which has only been shown in TWO reviews, both by the same person, neither of which you apparently disagree with.

    I'd call that a very BAD example, personally. Wouldn't you?

  • secombe #205 3 years ago

    It was a good example of an obscure genre and EG's bias towards them when they review games.

    For the love of god, give up now. Pic Pic is accessible and simple in concept...think Tetris. It's not an obscure Japanese puzzler, it's the definition of casual gaming for the masses...it just so happens that it's had a very limited release, it would appear.

    There are literally hundreds of god awful puzzle games that get released on the DS and elsewhere, it just so happens that Pic Pic hits the spot quite beautifully, the review reflects this and helps the likes of me find the good stuff amongst the rubbish.

    To use your movie analogy, it would be Juno (i.e. accessible movie made on the cheap, but massive critical success) not some 'obscure Mongolian movie.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 20:00

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #206 3 years ago

    But what the hell is a person supposed to do when he is up against Campbell

    Construct a reasoned argument, and not contradict themselves hilariously every other post?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #207 3 years ago

    I'm just interpreting your posts that way. Maybe i'm wrong but your not doing yourself any favours by insulting anyone who disagrees with you. You're coming off as a self important douche.

    Only to stupid wankers, though. And I regard stupid wankers thinking of me that way as a ringing endorsement. So thanks!

  • botherer #208 3 years ago

    remo, you love name calling. That's very clear. You went not only for name calling, but you also tried to make it very personal, using the scraps of information you had on someone. You've also relished in shouting some very distasteful remarks.

    I do wish you would have the grace to apologise. Although when someone says things like "spastic" as an insult, I think perhaps my ridiculous optimism that someone can be reasonable should be abandoned. Can I suggest you volunteer some of your time to work with an organisation like SCOPE?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #209 3 years ago

    I never insulted the reviewer. Not once.

    So saying someone gives shit games 10/10 just to be part of the "journalistic elite" isn't insulting them?

    Man, it's so hard to keep up with you spinning around on the spot I'm getting dizzy.

  • smelly #210 3 years ago

    yeah.. we all know that reviewers only give 10/10 scores in return for free holidays and $10k's worth of advertising space...

  • smelly #211 3 years ago

    Poor ps3:

    http://on line.wsj.com/article/SB12305097...

  • spudsbuckley #212 3 years ago

    'Only to stupid wankers, though. And I regard stupid wankers thinking of me that way as a ringing endorsement. So thanks!'

    Oh right, now i get it :) You're playing a character.

    Sorry to say, but the cranky games journalist bit was already done by Zero Punctuation.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #213 3 years ago

    Sorry to say, but the cranky games journalist bit was already done by Zero Punctuation.

    Your grasp of chronology amuses me.

  • secombe #214 3 years ago

    I don't even know why he has got involved. My beef has always been with EGs editorial policies

    Maybe if we highlight it enough, it will 'click'...

    "You love to review all the obscure Japanese puzzlers and give them 10/10 when they don't deserve it to prove you are the journalistic elite"

    The reviewer has made it quite clear that he consulted with the editor before his score was published. What more do you want? If every game had to be reviewed by the entire staff, we would have a couple of games reviewed per month (at most) and a slightly awkward average score which doesn't really reflect the text of the review, or what an individual might expect to gain from it.

    Half the point is that you get to learn what makes a reviewer tick, and if you happen to be on that wavelength (or at least can identify with it) you can make a pretty decent judgement call on whether you think you might like it. For what its worth, 4 of my family members have now spent at least 5hrs each on Pic Pic, their review scores are as follows: 10, 10, 10, 10.

  • botherer #215 3 years ago

    "I never insulted the reviewer. Not once.
    I don't even know why he has got involved.

    My beef has always been with EGs editorial policies"

    remo, I'm very sorry, but you did insult me, and very directly. Editorial Policy isn't the name of someone who works for Eurogamer, in case that's the confusion. When I write for EG, I give a game the score I believe it deserves. You stated, without any room for confusion or ambiguity, that EG gives games inflated scores for nefarious reasons. You then went on to explain that this is done because a writer (not a website) wants to make himself appear elite. (Oddly you reiterated that moments ago, despite your current tack.) The only example of the reviews you meant were those written only by me. So yes, oddly enough I assume I am relevant to the discussion. And again, I don't think you thought the writer or writers you were slandering would show up.

    You've also previously said that you believe it incorrect for writers to give scores in isolation, but they should rather be based on an editorial consensus. You rather peculiarly claimed this was how scores are given in print magazines. Now you are saying the problem with games getting 10 is caused by editorial policy. I'm very confused about how you think scores should be given.

    But once and for all, you need to know: when you say that writers are giving deceitful scores to garner personal acclaim or attention, you are insulting writers. So far you have not provided an example of such a game, other than the one you are now claiming to have no problem with (despite being so very, very specific - and it's PiC PiC for heaven's sake), so until you do it will remain an insult to everyone on EG. Amongst which I am included.

  • smelly #216 3 years ago

    Ok mr botherer:

    "when you say that writers are giving deceitful scores to garner personal acclaim or attention, you are insulting writers. So far you have not provided an example of such a game,"


    You know as well as i do how game review sites work.. However surely it's a bit hypocritical for someone (such as yourself) to critique peoples hard work (i.e. the games which are made) but not expect criticism back?

    But you ask for a good example of a game which got an undeserving score on this site? Hmmm.. well there was a certain soccer game released around 2 years ago.. Which was severly flawed.. and the people who run this site seem to be really good friends with the bloke who made it.. and it got a 9/10 score... Hmmmm.. Cant for the life of me think of the name of it though.. perhaps mr campbell might be able to shed some light *wink*

  • Obiwanshinobi #217 3 years ago

    MGS fans in "liking MGS game" shock!

    In my opinion it really IS something. First of all, MGS series, pretty much like Final Fantasy, tends to extremely divide its own apologists' opinions when it comes to judge particular entrances. Perhaps the most passionate antagonists of MGS:X are the most zealous apologists of MGS:Y. Navertheless, every single entrance ends up getting excellent average score (significantly higher than "average", that is). In case of, say, Tomb Rider, or Crash Bandicoot, or Sonic there's no such regularity (and we're discussing pretty worn-out franchise here). There's always discussion: "yes, you have nothing to do during very long cut-scenes, but they are top class and yes, you can pretend you'e a cardboard box, but you're by no means forced to do so und so weiter, und so weiter". Such discussion usually leads to conclusion that MGS, whilst doing so many things better than almost any other game, can be considered utterly unplayable at the same time by some people, but still the majority of people claiming that they finished the game agrees that there's plenty to enjoy playing MGS. Such agreement may not be a consensus in the lexical meaning of the word, but isn't trivial either. Not every sequel of succesfull game gets it.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 20:26

  • botherer #218 3 years ago

    smelly - I absolutely agree with you - reviews require and deserve criticism. If there are any mistakes in my work, or problems with my prose, I will gladly hear them (and naturally feel disgruntled about it too). I'd suggest that saying I am a liar and give deceitful scores for personal acclaim doesn't really count as criticism of the review, but rather a slanderous attack on my integrity.

    I am interested to hear if remo has any examples of relatively obscure games receiving what he believes to be inflated scores purely for the purpose of the writer achieving "journalistic elite" status. I'm fairly certain he doesn't have any, beyond the one he's since abandoned, or we'd have heard them by now.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 20:28

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #219 3 years ago

    Can't a person voice an opinion?

    Yes, clearly they can. It appears they an also completely reverse that opinion, while claiming not to have reversed it at all, repeat completely contradictory things several times, totally ignore numerous unbiased third parties telling them they look stupid, refuse to say what their actual position is on anything (possibly because they no longer know what it is) and generally make a quite spectacular arse out of themselves, to the general amusement of all. That's why comments threads exist.

    On the whole, love, it probably would have been better if you'd put me on your ignore list when you claimed to have done. Maybe you should try it now, before you actually die of embarrassment, or of strangling yourself to death on one of the many twisted, mangled knots in your argument.

  • smelly #220 3 years ago

    @remowilliamsuk:

    LOL! Loving it..

    Reading this thread was great fun.. and now you're doing the "waah.. it's not fair, im not playing any more.. i'm running away and taking my ball with me *sulk*" routine..

    Come on man.. Get a set of balls...

  • smelly #221 3 years ago

    "am interested to hear if remo has any examples of relatively obscure games receiving what he believes to be inflated scores purely for the purpose of the writer achieving "journalistic elite" status. I'm fairly certain he doesn't have any, beyond the one he's since abandoned, or we'd have heard them by now."


    How about high review scores in return for advertising space? Or because you're mates with the bloke that worked on it? Do they count?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #222 3 years ago

    But you ask for a good example of a game which got an undeserving score on this site? Hmmm.. well there was a certain soccer game released around 2 years ago..

    Sensible Soccer is hardly an "obscure Japanese puzzler" being marked highly just to be contrary. It's one of the most popular and deeply-loved videogaming brands of all time.

  • smelly #223 3 years ago

    yeah.. but you would say that...

    EDIT: But yeah.. i know it's not an example of a Japanese puzzle game, yadda yadda.. just an example of the scores sometimes being "out of whack"

    .. and i believe you said so yourself on your own blog at the time too..

    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 20:32

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #224 3 years ago

    Everyone on here thinks you are a total joke.

    Interesting definition of "everyone", there. You must have an awful LOT of people on ignore.

    :D

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #225 3 years ago

    yeah.. but you would say that...

    And you'd disagree?

  • SchumiF1 #226 3 years ago

    We're well on the way to 1000! Lets make it happen!

    Eurogamer - the worst reviews!

  • smelly #227 3 years ago

    >And you'd disagree?

    Of course not! :-)

    I agree with you on every account so far... (which is unusual for me when you start arguing)

    .. see my edit above :-)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #228 3 years ago

    you are a total joke.
    If they think I am then so what? Its just a internet psuedonym and I can change it tomorrow if I want.

    So let's get this straight... if people have read your posts and decided from them that you're a complete cretin, you'll change your name and pretend to be someone else who ISN'T a complete cretin? (Until you post the same opinions again, and everyone thinks that person is a complete cretin too, of course.)

    Oh no! You win!

  • botherer #229 3 years ago

    remo, I wonder why you're giving up on me? I've been quite remarkably polite to you, despite your scurrilous comments and insinuations. Come on, just admit you made some silly remarks that you can't substantiate, and everyone will hug and we'll all be friends forever.

  • smelly #230 3 years ago

    @botherer.. yeah.. but you do seem to want to slag the wii off in ever review you do for it..

    *ducks for cover* ;-)

  • botherer #231 3 years ago

    I hate the Wii!

    [Goes back to playing on his Wii]

  • secombe #232 3 years ago

    @botherer.. yeah.. but you do seem to want to slag the wii off in ever review you do for it..

    I think this is the one case where there is a blanket EG editorial policy, as they (as a site) appear to have almost completely disassociated themselves with the current market leader ;)

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #233 3 years ago

    Actually its more the "sawing your legs off at the knees" thing, which seemed rather pointedly opinionated to me. Not to mention the ludicrous "review" you host on your site, your oft-cited dislike of the entire franchise, and your pathological determination to disprove my original point about the critical consensus (oooh I did it again) being extremely positive.

    It's perfectly true that I hated the earlier MGS games, which is why I haven't played the latest one or expressed any opinion on it. If you insist on treating an opinion on Game X as an opinion on Game Y, there's not much I can do.

    The review on my site was written by someone who absolutely loves MGS, but thought 4 was bloated overblown nonsensical shite. I'm at a loss as to what point you're making there.

    I don't have any "pathological determination", the simple fact is that you're wrong and I pointed it out, extremely reasonably and with no insults whatsoever. There is no "consensus view" that MGS4 is a great game, except MAYBE among people who bought it, who are obviously likely to be predisposed to think that or they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. That isn't a very controversial statement, and your increasingly hysterical personal attacks on me don't make it one.

    Once more: I've never played MGS4. I have no idea what it's like, except that I imagine it's probably similar to some games I've played before and didn't enjoy, which is why I'm not planning to try to find out. Life is short and I have too many games to play that I'm more likely to enjoy.

  • secombe #234 3 years ago

    But if everyone got to review their favourite genres then we would have a whole load of misleading high scores.

    Ok, now I'm lost.

    Chances are, if you have any interest in DS puzzle games, you want somebody to review them who is remotely interested (and therefore, who you can hopefully relate to) in that same genre. All the better if they've reviewed similar games before, then you can compare/reflect/consider and make a decision on a whole host of factors.

    If a completely exclusive FPS nut reviews Pic Pic, what good is that doing anybody?

    I'm one of those people who just doesn't get RPGs, why would there ever be a point in me reviewing one? The RPG fans would take me to the cleaners, because they aren't actually going to be informed of anything that is relevant to them.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 20:46

  • botherer #235 3 years ago

    But if everyone got to review their favourite genres then we would have a whole load of misleading high scores.

    Oh poo, we went over this. I'll paste what I wrote last time, since I thought it was rather good.

    "I'm also not sure what you mean by "love this type of game", unless the type of game in question is, "really, exceptionally good ones." If that's what you meant, then yes, I love that type of game. If, as I disappointingly suspect, you mean "obscure Japanese puzzle games," then no, I have no love for such a genre. I'm not sure how someone could love games on this basis, since so many are so very terrible, most are mediocre, a few are good, and very few are excellent. I love the excellent ones - I find that's a good rule of thumb."

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #236 3 years ago

    So, remo, love. We've finally managed to establish that by "obscure Japanese puzzlers" you didn't actually mean obscure Japanese puzzlers, but were using the words "Japanese" and "puzzlers" in their generic sense, to mean any kind of games from anywhere.

    So precisely WHICH games is it that have been given undeserving high scores so that the reviewer can be part of the "journalistic elite" that pretends to like crappy games just to be different?

    Apparently this is a major failing of EG, so you must have quite a long list of examples. Come on, name some names.

  • smelly #237 3 years ago

    They pretended to like gta4... but that's not obscure, a puzzler or japanese...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #238 3 years ago

    ok, in the last 20 retro reviews on this site:

    OMFG.

    Any REAL reviews?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #239 3 years ago

    They pretended to like gta4... but that's not obscure, a puzzler or japanese...

    Don't forget Bioshock. They pretended REALLY HARD on that one.

  • secombe #240 3 years ago

    ok, in the last 20 retro reviews on this site:

    fifteen out of the twenty got score 8 or above.
    Including seven 9's and a 10.

    So what is actually your point, regarding these 20 reviews? i.e. What are you actually saying is happening?

    I can only assume you mean the actual retro section (not an arbitrary cross section of games you consider 'retro'), in which case, isn't the point that they are reviewing classic retro games? What would be the point in re-reviewing something awful, like Captain Planet on the Mega Drive, for example?

    I can't see how those reviews are having any influence on your recent or prospective purchases (which I assume was your original point, considering we are in the top games of 2008 article), and therefore, I can't see how those retro reviews have any place in your so called argument. Unless you are actually telling me that Dropzone and Uridium (for example) are not deserving of high scores, in which case we may as well call it a day now.
    Edited by 2 at 29/12/08 @ 21:07

  • el_pollo_diablo #241 3 years ago

    @ Remo (unarmed and dangerous)
    You're right, in a sense. A journalist who gives an undeserving game an inflated mark for a reason other than it's quality is a rascal. An editorial policy that condones such a thing would indeed also be rapscallious.

    But you're mainly wrong. Firstly, you picked two idiotic examples to illustrate your point - they're both really good games. They might have bad graphics, and be simple to grasp, and *gasp* generally low profile, but surely you should thank the reviewer for bringing such gems to your attention? Oh - but you've not really played either of them.

    @ all parties:
    Rise above the name calling. It makes you look like bad losers.

    Anyway, roll on tomorrow for the last 10. Here's hoping International Rugby Challenge gets top spot!

  • smelly #242 3 years ago

    >obscure games that no one plays

    like mgs4? (sorry couldnt resist)


    >so if EG like it then it makes EG special.

    .. And again.. he's asked you for SPECIFIC examples.. and youve yet to give us any...

    Bioshock/gta4 are hardly obscure japanese puzzlers.. both hugely overrated on this site.. But neither prove your point.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #243 3 years ago

    rev, thats my whole point.
    obscure games that no one plays, so if EG like it then it makes EG special.

    I bow to you, sir. You've shot yourself down in flames a hundred times better than I could ever have dreamt. All this fuss was about reviews of old Commodore 64 games in the Retro section?

    ROFLCOPTER!

  • smelly #244 3 years ago

    >Just because it is popular doesn't make it crap.

    But your saying "just because its unpopular must mean it's crap?"

  • smelly #245 3 years ago

    And unlike you with the games in question.. i've played all 3 of halo 3, bioshock and gta4.. and none of them were worth the scores they got (imho).. but then i've actually played them..

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #246 3 years ago

    I'm merely pointing out (in an admittedly critical manner) the way you choose to present yourself is deliberately abrasive, combative, and obnoxious.

    Man! I had no idea!

    But seriously, here's what I posted in response to you:

    "Consensus of who, though? The people who bought it? In statistics, they call that a self-selecting sample and discount the results as unrepresentative of the wider demographic. By any numerical measure, the vast majority of gamers didn't want MGS4 and didn't buy it. A large chunk of even those who did buy it didn't like it."

    Wow, you're right. The hateful, obnoxious bigotry just drips off that, doesn't it?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #247 3 years ago

    (I do feel a bit of a dick for interpreting "You're a hateful little bigot" as a personal attack, though. Sorry, my bad.)

  • secombe #248 3 years ago

    It is typical of Eurogamer snobs to start a backlash on something popular

    Hold on, so you're saying that EG intentionally gives obscure titles higher marks, but marks down the popular titles. But you're also suggesting that many of these obscure titles (that you haven't played) must be crap precisely because they are obscure/mongolian/whatever. You also seem to be suggesting that no titles in the retro section are deserving of high marks as well.

    Really, I'm lost. So I'm clear, only modern, populist games deserve high marks, but only if the review and score is a combination of the views of at least half the EG staff, and if possible, they shouldn't be a fan of the genre in question.

    Feel free to respond to my last post as well, particularly the bit about why 20 reviews from the retro section is actually having any effect on your life.
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 21:23

  • smelly #249 3 years ago

    "try the last 20 retro reviews as I said."

    Just looked in the retro section.. not a single overrated obscure japanese puzzler there?

    There are a lot of great games though.. who'd argue that the likes of dropzone, wizball, the sentinel, etc ARENT good games?

  • smelly #250 3 years ago

    "GTA4 is stunning. Missions are a bit lame at times as I said, but the game world is astonishing. "

    ??!?!?

    So you're saying that the missions (i.e. the game itself) are lame.. But the world and tech is astonishing?

    So basically you're saying it's a lame game with great tech?

    Ah, i get it now.. you're one of THOSE people... No wonder you cant see the merits in a "obscure japanese puzzler" or a retro game.. you just like to jerk off over tech!

  • smelly #251 3 years ago

    >Feel free to keep recycling the same old crap.

    No.. like everyone on here.. we're waiting for you to back up your argument with some proper examples...

    its you that's going around in circles and resorting to insults...

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #252 3 years ago

    I'm not making any personal attacks on you

    I also look pretty foolish now about thinking "an obnoxious blowhard heckling from the sidelines at an industry that has failed to recognise his talent" was a personal attack. What must you think of me?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #253 3 years ago

    Really, I'm lost. So I'm clear - only modern, populist games deserve high marks, but only if the review and score is a combination of the views of at least half the EG staff, and if possible, they shouldn't be a fan of the genre in question.

    I'm pretty sure that's it, except that I think they also have to have polygonal graphics. Remo?

  • smelly #254 3 years ago

    "'ve just giving you a fucking example!
    It explains everything I am talking about.
    Niche games which will never be popular are scored highly. "


    The example you gave was of the retro section.. which contains games which were once popular.. so hardly a case of "will never be popular".

    .. But you've not pointed us towards any "niche games which arent popular.. which are actually bad!" which would prove your point..

    At the moment your point seems to be - if the game doesnt sell then it doesnt deserve a high score?

  • smelly #255 3 years ago

    "Its the gaming equivalent of someone who turns there nose up at Coldplay etc when they get popular, after having been going to their concert for 10 years."


    erm.. no its not.. your argument is the exact opposite in fact?

    EDIT: Just to clarify - you're basically doing the equivalent of a top ten pop fan (britney spears fan or equivalent) turning their nose up at any music which isnt popular and mainstream..


    '"I said some missions are lame. Not all.
    That keeps it from being a perfect game, but not enough from it being a truly great game. "

    So.. it's overrated then!

    Glad we agree on something
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 21:35

  • smelly #256 3 years ago

    "Just because a game is niche or retro doesn't mean it should automatically get a high score. "


    No-one is saying that here..

    But you're saying just because a game is niche or retro it DOESNT deserve a high score...

    And YET AGAIN you've yet to provide any examples of a niche game which got a high score which didnt deserve it..

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #257 3 years ago

    The point, dummy, is that the games in the Retro section are mostly hand-picked BECAUSE they're good. They're not really "reviews" at all, more like retrospectives with scores just for fun. Quite obviously, what everyone except you is talking about is NEW RELEASE games which have been given undeserving high scores. You didn't originally say Retro-section games, you said "obscure Japanese puzzlers". Now name us ONE game which has actually had a proper review in the normal everyday EG that was overmarked for being obscure and for the sake of being different.

  • smelly #258 3 years ago

    "smelly, you are a dick.
    THE LAST 20 RETRO GAMES. "


    ... All of which are good games! And hugely popular when they were first released... And dont prove your point in the slightest.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #259 3 years ago

    "Its a negative characterisation, not a personal attack."

    ROFLLMAOLOLETC!

    I do have to take my hat off to you for that one.

  • smelly #260 3 years ago

    >I think I win if I am not mistaken.

    Maybe in the land of retarded fairies?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #261 3 years ago

    "I think I win if I am not mistaken."

    God bless you, you mental little troll.

  • secombe #262 3 years ago

    To recap, remo...

    - You personally attacked the integrity of a reviewer over two very specific review scores (mainly Pic Pic), and also claimed that EG is rubbish because of its elitist attitude

    - You then claimed you didn't insult said reviewer in any way, and also that you were not specifically talking about Pic Pic

    - When asked for examples of obscure games that EG had over-scored purely on the basis of being obscure, you highlighted some of the most popular 'old' games of all time which EG have reviewed as a nice retrospective.

    So in conclusion, you've handily discovered the retro review scores as a basis to backup your argument that EG is elitist, when in fact you were originally referring to 'current' games (but not Slitherink or Pic Pic) but have so far not provided a single example of such games.

  • secombe #263 3 years ago

    I think, in Internet terms, that "gradually claiming you are leaving for the night" is known as an apology.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #264 3 years ago

    1. You're frequently abusive. (plenty of examples in this thread)

    Absolutely. No argument there whatsover.

    2. You very often express your hatred of things and people you dislike. e.g "it's perfectly true that I hated the earlier MGS games".

    Indeed I do. But having hate within you is not the same as being hateful. It's not even the same as being "hate-filled", which is what you actually mean to say there. Most people have hate within them from time to time.

    3. You are extremely intolerant of people who's opinion disagrees with yours. Again, too many examples to list just in this thread.

    That's just completely wrong, though. I'm completely intolerant of people disagreeing with me idiotically. Look on my forum (or any other one I use) and you'll find plenty of perfectly civil disagreement if people conduct their argument intelligently and rationally. People like dear sweet remo, on the other hand, aren't worth wasting civility on. Pro tip: if I'm treating you like a dickhead, chances are it's because you are one.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #265 3 years ago

    You're taking a lot of time to leave when you could be naming us a single game released in modern times that EG over-rated just to be "elite".

  • Henrik_se #266 3 years ago

    If you guys continue this thread, I'll have to go make more popcorn. Holy crap this has been entertaining! :-D
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 21:55

  • secombe #267 3 years ago

    An apology? You're not even involved dickhead

    Woo hoo, somebody who doesn't raise his voice, swear or throw even the remotest sign of an insult (that would be me) gets one thrown at him, awesome. Seriously, how old are you? Genuine question.

  • gohda #268 3 years ago

    AHAHAHAHAHAH

  • botherer #269 3 years ago

    Oh remo.

    "I'm only posting on here because I am working and I am bored.
    Are you people actually choosing to post here all day long instead of doing something real with your lives?"

    Why did you say that? What was your motivation? People keep asking you for examples (I'll make it easier - just ONE example) of an obscure game an EG writer has overrated in order to present themselves as journalistic elite. And you've not been able to name any, and that's obviously because you don't have an example. Which is fine, you just have to admit it.

    Referencing the retro section is quite peculiar. A collection of reviews of games specifically chosen because of their greatness getting positive reviews. How are they obscure, exactly? And how is it an example of that which you originally cited? Of course it isn't. It's got nothing to do with anything.

    Why not just admit you were wrong to have made your original assertion. Apologise to me for your slanderous comments about my professionalism and integrity (and perhaps apologise to all the other writers, since you extended the accusations to them), and then everyone will leave you alone. Or provide a single example of obscure games being given dishonest inflated marks. Preferably not of C64 games. (Did you really think the retro section gambit would work? "This will get them off my backs!";)
    Edited by 1 at 29/12/08 @ 22:20

  • el_pollo_diablo #270 3 years ago

    -----------------------------------------------------------

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #271 3 years ago

    No, a bigot is an intolerant person "who refuses to accept different views". I accept plenty of different views, just not stupid ones. In common usage it clearly implies unreasonable prejudice, though I'd grant you the dictionary definition doesn't stipulate that. And the difference between "hateful" and "hate-filled" is rather substantial, and therefore by definition not pedantry.

    I'm a professional writer, man. I can do this all night long... : p

  • botherer #272 3 years ago

    secombe, I love you and I want to marry you.

  • el_pollo_diablo #273 3 years ago

    How dare you ignore the line.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #274 3 years ago

    How dare you ignore the line.

    FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING LINE, YOU FUCKING CUNT.

    Also, there should have been a question mark at the end of that line, not a full stop.

  • botherer #275 3 years ago

    I think Stu and retibra are going to end up kissing.

    Look at them begrudgingly admiring each other, realising the other isn't as dumb as they'd both first thought.

    Wooooo!

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #276 3 years ago

    Want me to do blowhard, heckler, etc, Next?
    ;D

    Actually, I'll have a go, because I'm getting no bastard cards in this poker game at all.

    "blowhard" in my dictionary is defined as "empty boaster". What have I been boasting about?

    And "heckle" is given as "interrupt somebody with shouting", and I don't think it's possible to interrupt someone on an internet forum (certainly unless you're a mod, and tricky even then).

    TWO SWINGS, TWO MISSES. NEXT!

  • el_pollo_diablo #277 3 years ago

    Whoa. I'm one of the people who treats people respectfully around here.
    The line was simply a good natured observation that the matters of this dark day appear to be drawing to a close.

    I say again. Whoa.

  • botherer #278 3 years ago

    He was joking, el_pollo!

    He was spoofing himself.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #279 3 years ago

    Whoa. I'm one of the people who treats people respectfully around here.
    The line was simply a good natured observation that the matters of this dark day appear to be drawing to a close.

    I say again. Whoa.

    See if I ever assume someone's intelligent enough to get an obvious joke again.

  • el_pollo_diablo #280 3 years ago

    Thick as well, eh?

    Thanks!

  • TheBrow #281 3 years ago

    You guys are SOOO yesterday. We're onto 20-11 now, don't you know?

  • Rodney #282 3 years ago

    this is like a soap, will Remo admit he is wrong and apologise?

  • dryden555 #283 3 years ago

    Far Cry 2 = pretty and 1/3 of a complete game.

  • Rodney #284 3 years ago

    by the way, I laughed at the ''FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING LINE, YOU FUCKING CUNT' joke.

    well, smirked at my desk.

  • Feet #285 3 years ago

    Ah, all the fun of the internet. Good times.
    Edited by 1 at 30/12/08 @ 09:16

  • Umalakai #286 3 years ago

    Kieron Gillen: I spent days begging Tom to let me re-review this after the furore around Oli's review lead to that bulging 2000-posts thread. Because those people seemed to think that Oli's review was somehow negative. They were clearly confused, and I wanted to make it totally clear what a negative review actually looks like. Tom decided it probably wasn't wise. Much like forty-two hour cut-scenes. Remember: Just because it's carefully constructed art made by one of videogames' true auteurs, doesn't mean that it can't be full of s***.

    If this is true, the game really shouldnt be in the top 50 at all. For the love of god guys, its ok to not think the game should be in the top 10, but if you have to bash the game to justify its place at number 30, then whats the point of the list at all? Horribly unprofessional, and to be honest, wreaks of a lack of confidence in your own decision.

  • SchumiF1 #287 3 years ago

    Would someone explain this to me: is this some kind of sick joke by Eurogamer to get more traffic around here? Sure looks to me like they got just that.

    Seriously, Tomb Raider Underworld is better than MGS4?

  • orakio #288 3 years ago

    Have all of Remo's posts been deleted? Hard to follow the soap opera this way, and as far as I know I haven't put anyone on ignore.

  • suicida #289 3 years ago

    Has Remo been GI'd?

  • HyperShadow #290 3 years ago

    I'd just balme all this on nanomachines and be done with it, as entertaining as it was.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #291 3 years ago

    Remo seems to have fallen on his sword in shame and humiliation. His user account appears to be gone. Looks like we'll NEVER get to find out which games he meant by "obscure Japanese puzzlers scoring 10/10".

  • rotmm #292 3 years ago

    Good thread, will read again.

  • dewdz #293 3 years ago

    you guys are absolute idiots!! MGS4 30??!! fools... they probably thought that the story was too HARDCORE for eurogamer staff. Pussies

  • Law07 #294 3 years ago

    lololololololololololol only 389 posts!?

  • mingster #295 3 years ago

    Hehe...
    Best insult of the thread goes to the Rev for the priceless use of the word 'tool'.
    Up there with 'pleb' and 'plum'.

  • mingster #296 3 years ago

    Bye Remo your comments won't be missed.
    You now have a chance to reincarnate as a nicer user.

  • fluff_the_tiger #297 3 years ago

    Trials 2 only Ł1.49 on steam at the moment for the next two days- good shout somebody.

    I'm really looking forward to playing MGS4, loved all the other ones, but I am waiting for the cost of the PS3 to drop