Digital Foundry vs. Console Lag: Round Two

PlayStation 3 and Arc camera put to the test.

It's been a week where Microsoft's PR efforts in promoting Natal to the mainstream press and celebs alike have been met with mixed fortunes. While Peter Molyneux soldiers on with good work evangelising the tech to both consumer and specialist press alike, puzzlingly the hands-on demos continue to run on the aged E3 2009 platform. Nobody outside selected, NDA-respecting developers knows the quality of the production version.

However, the potential is obvious: no less a man than Jonathan Ross describes it as "impressive... sky's the limit" but at the same time cautions that it's "not quite there yet", while his son went so far as put a disclaimer about the lag on his YouTube video showing Dad in "action". Hey, Natal news is so thin on the ground that we'll take it where we get it.

The truth is that Xbox 360 games in general and Natal in particular have been fairly easy to measure for so-called controller lag: the time taken between human movement and the action occurring on-screen. We've got a Ben Heck controller board for measuring 360 response while the video demo of Natal in our hands-on at gamescom last year speaks for itself and was the first real effort to measure its responsiveness.

So, can PlayStation 3 and its so-called "Arc" motion controller offering be put to the test in any kind of meaningful way? So far, the project has been even more carefully guarded than Natal. Less than two weeks from now, GDC kicks off and with it the first opportunity to get a good look at the wand and hopefully go hands-on with the motion controller. I expect it to be very good: after all, most of the component technologies that comprise the system are out there now for anybody to try.

The wand itself hooks up to the PlayStation via Bluetooth - just like your SixAxis or Dual Shock 3 - while motion-tracking of the wand itself is achieved using the PlayStation Eye, another piece of tech freely available to anyone. I picked up mine from the online SonyStyle store over Christmas for £15.

That being the case, we can assume that button presses on the wand will be as instantaneous as they would be on the traditional controller, while the accelerometer and inertia sensors would transmit in the same way, at the same speed. Movement is tracked using an already-available PS3 peripheral: the PlayStation Eye has plenty of software out there that already judges motion and processes video. This very nice little piece of tech has been pulled apart and reverse-engineered to the point where PC drivers are available courtesy of enterprising coder "AlexP". He confirms Sony's spec of 640x480 imaging at up to 60FPS, while the lower-resolution 320x240 mode is capable of double that.

Crucially for the purposes of our discussion, he is able to measure the camera's latency at just one frame, or 16.67ms. For the Arc project, Sony could’ve binned off the camera and used a new one, but PlayStation Eye's impressive spec is accomplished enough that they didn't need to do so.

But how does that one frame latency translate into actual gameplay?

Motion detection works by having the PlayStation Eye track the glowing, bulbous tip of the Arc wand and while we can expect plenty of tooling around and optimisations of the core libraries at Sony HQ, we can still get a good idea of how processing motion and video works in the here and now.

Sony's bundled PlayStation Eye tool, EyeCreate, can be used to give a best possible processing scenario. Boot it up and you'll see that it displays PlayStation Eye's input as is, with full resolution 640x480 at 60 frames per second. In these "best case" conditions, latency is slight - ballpark with 60FPS gaming titles like Burnout Paradise. PSN title Mesmerise is another interesting test: it processes the camera input for any changes whatsoever and turns those changes into a 3D visual. It's not Arc but both show the same underlying tech in use on the only area of the peripheral likely to incur game lag.

PSN title Mesmerise in action. Its cute visualiser using PlayStation Eye. Display lag on this Dell monitor has been measured at 50ms, so that has to be factored out when evaluating the video.

Results are intriguing. Mesmerise - a 60FPS title - appears to lag behind human motion by between 100 and 133ms. A more exact measurement isn't really possible. That figure takes into account the fact that the monitor involved scales slowly (720p has a three-frame, 50ms latency) and was used simply because it has been calibrated. We know how slow it is, making our measurement more accurate. I expect Arc to be the same, or better, in similar gaming circumstances.

Analogues for those figures can be found by measuring actual gameplay and we go to GDC expectant that Arc will work well as a direct joypad replacement. There's zero reason whatsoever to expect that button presses will be any less responsive than the trusty Dual Shock 3, and while movement might feel a touch less responsive, wand motion should carry far more information in terms of movement/trajectory. To put it basically, pointing is more accurate, precise and natural. As a parallel, the Wiimote has more lag than the PS3 pad, but there's no doubt that you can point and shoot at opponents far more quickly in the Wii rendition of Call of Duty 4, for example.

It's worth remembering of course that even factoring out the controller, game lag can vary massively from title to title. Now, for the first time, the PS3 can be put through its paces in controlled conditions. Digital Foundry has had a go at this before, of course. Back in September last year, we took a good, hard look at the latencies built into console gaming, with the emphasis on Xbox 360 titles.

Comments (36) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • MeBrains #1 2 years ago

    what I want to know is if any of this actually is impeding with gameplay. not from a DF point of view, but from a gamer pov. any takers?
  • KayJay #2 2 years ago

    Really great work DF & Richard.
    Interesting read and you have clearly put quite a bit of effort into this, Hats off.
  • the_exile #3 2 years ago

    I know Jonathan Ross is big into his gaming and might be reading this, so i'd just like to say that I shagged your wife Jane last night.
  • seanthejackal #4 2 years ago

  • HandOfBeadle #5 2 years ago

    I'd be more interested in an article about the tech behind either natal or the gem/wand/lightning dildo whatever they call it instead of .. controller lag...
    Why don't you come back when that is a possibility, rather than commenting for commenting's sake?
  • sarcasmoidosis #6 2 years ago

    @MeBrains:

    It's not impeding, it's just better when it's done right. I'm not a fan of Halo3, but I have to say that you feel the reduced latency from the get go. Sure, a title with higher input lag is still playable, but it feels clunky. And titles with variant framerate (like Mass Effect 1) will really feel weird.
  • FogHeart #7 2 years ago

    Looks like the golden rule is don't go above 150. Killzone 2 starts at 150, and I just can't play it (I'm on a CRT - no screen lag).

    Given the lag reported here on Resi 5, I'm a bit concerned for that game when it has Arc capability, as it will introduce a little bit more input latency. It might feel a little bit 'off', like the original Red Steel did. Certainly not game-breaking, but not optimal. Games made from the ground up for Arc should be just fine.

    I want to say thanks for this article, DF. I've been wanting it for a while. Now to check out that bargain thing on your latest tweet...
  • JohnnyWashnGo #8 2 years ago

    The only time lag is really important to me is in SFIV and BB:CT. Most other games don't really register with me as much in terms of lagginess.
  • Geordiemp #9 2 years ago

    Thought article was going in direction of trying to estimate the Sony Arc / wand lag...was expecting some analysis of the videos from the last E3 or whatever stage demos.

    Will probably get Arc and Natal....They are so different the games will be very different as well - A light aber for Arc and a boxing game for Natal...

    Must put some strain on developers, they need to do 3 totally different games for the 3 consoles...
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 15:42
  • nuffmon #10 2 years ago

    I would suggest that onlive's 80ms estimate would be in addition to any lag already found within the game. I'd be interest to get some figures to Remote Play lag too. I played Monsters loads using Remote Play but it doesn't really requires fast input. Shooter does suffer from lag but i find it weird how my brain seemed to compensate after while and the lag just became part of the game.
  • Fake_Blood #11 2 years ago

    Could you measure SMB on NES ?
  • des #12 2 years ago

    Test Killzone 2 without the patch.
  • hesido #13 2 years ago

    Here's a poor man's animated gif from a tech demo video. The Arc seems a lot laggy, I hope they can fix it:
    Sony Sword waggle demo animgif

    Here's also a poor man's latency test, on a 30fps video.. I measured 7 frames of latency, but I believe it would really be around 6 on a proper 60fps hd video..
    Sony flash light demo animgif

    edited to fix the urls..
    Edited by 2 at 27/02/10 @ 19:43
  • Tomo #14 2 years ago

    Really good article this. I don't tend to bother with the DF stuff much, but this was thoroughly interesting.

    The lag in Lego Batman really is almost irrelevant as long as it's not crazy-slow. But yeah, I can see its importance in FPSes and beat-em-ups. Consistency is crucial though as the article points out. I remember playing Quake 2 on my 56k modem. I used to ping about 150-180, sometimes 110-130 on a good server and the wind was blowing in the right direction. On those good days, the extra 50ms or so was definitely welcome and not too large a jump to adjust my twitch aim to.

    Then I remember finally becoming an SLPB with a ping of about 10-20 when I moved to uni and the adjustment took me a good few days at least. If the game itself has horrendous lag variance, compounded by sporadic online latency, that's going to be a right pain in the arse.
  • jimboton #15 2 years ago

    the gameplay experience we have these days is a lot less responsive than the old 60Hz 2D arcade titles many of use played when we were kids. Lag is literally being built into the games of today

    I'm very intrigued by this. I think some 'retro' tests of classic 8 and 16 bit titles (both in its original and virtual console/pc emulation forms if possible) would be nice to see just how much we've lost in gaming responsiveness in the last 15-20 years..
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 15:52
  • Jayke #16 2 years ago

    I'm fairly certain the OnLive guy was referring to the latency on site. That 80ms is added ontop of everything else.
  • GamesConnoisseur #17 2 years ago

    Sharkxtreme

    I agree that you can ADAPT to the latency of the game as long as its consistent, however the article reported that latency in KZ2 do varies in processing heavy areas, 150 ms upwards. The worse performing of the games on test here. For me its very noticeable and I had hard time forgiving the lag as felt that it was system letting me down not my reaction.

    I did enjoy KZ2 but for me it was not worth playing it through again and again to put up with the latency, and I pray that GG can improve this for next game. If so then would certainly push KZ series much forward as a serious FPS contender.

    I disliked the claims of lags was down to giving weapons weighs, that cheap shot. As hand gun get treated the same latency as the massive gun! Pffft!

    Still an interesting article that can settle some arguments and hopefully encourages devs to up their games.
  • FIGHT #18 2 years ago

    " making our Dell at 50ms still slow, but far from the worst. "

    DF buy new display !!! your dell is slow for tests and 50ms is terrible

  • monkie_king #19 2 years ago

    or just use a CRT ... resolution hardly matters for a little flash video.
  • karooo #20 2 years ago

    meh arc who needs this, i wanna jump around playing on NATAL after i come tired from work and kill myself, it would be so fun NATAL ftw !
  • NightAntilli #21 2 years ago

    Very nice and interesting article. I wish they would also test a few 3d fighters though, to see how those stack up against street fighter and some shooters. If there's any game that I feel has a low input delay it's DOA4. As for motion controls, I wonder if they would have a consistent way of testing the Wii motion controls to stack them up against the Arc and Natal.
  • Caimbeul #22 2 years ago

    I don't think (but don't mind being proved wrong by MS or Sony) that we are anywhere near seeing 1:1 input or anything close to it unless we start talking PC. But in fairness, I cant say that i have noticed any real lag on my LCD TV except when using motion controllers (X360 cam & Wii-mote)
  • brod #23 2 years ago

    @FIGHT
    "DF buy new display !!! your dell is slow for tests and 50ms is terrible"

    The display doesn't matter - the 50ms is deducted from the result to get the real value. Additionally, the article specifically stated that they're using that monitor because they KNOW the exact latency of it, which allows them to deduct the correct value.
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 21:26
  • chubster2010 #24 2 years ago

    I don't know what set up Eurogamer were using to demonstrate the lag on Mesmerise, but I just tried it on my my PS3, and the lag was no way near as bad as that - in ffact, it was virtually non-existent.

    I guess that's the problem with these sorts of tests - the results can vary massively depending on the equipment you're using.
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 21:33
  • Arwin #25 2 years ago

    Awesome stuff Richard!
  • ectotropic #26 2 years ago

    I'd be very interested to see how modern PC gaming is affected by lag. Apart from anything else it would be good as a reference point, not to mention that given that the majority of modern games are multi-threaded it would be nice to see the effect of that on lag. Since 360 controllers can be directly connected to a PC it should be fairly easy to do too! Maybe a 3 way Unreal Engine lag shoot out? That would be pretty neat I reckon.

    On another note, I don't have problems with lag much - I can compensate for it most of the time, but when it comes to jumping I have real problems with it. E.g. jumping across gaps in games like Uncharted or Darksiders will often result in me falling off as I instinctively wait till the character is right at the edge before pressing the button. It may just be me but I wonder if other people have this experience too?
  • malmer #27 2 years ago

    ectotropic:
    I usually fall of cliffs because I suck...so quite often then... :-)
    Never had any issues with input lag.
  • Oskool #28 2 years ago

    I can't wait to see your Onlive! review.
  • Murton #29 2 years ago

    @MeBrains: that's the only thing missing from many of the DF posts, whether or not the person holding the controller actually notices it themselves at all. Framerate for example is relative, as long as it's around 24 or higher (24 being the standard used by tv/movies) then it's not going to be seen as being slow at all and the majority of screen tear happens around the edges where the player isn't likely to notice it, unless it breaks the HUD or similar important screen elements.

    It's probably worth the guys at DF just grabbing a random fella from EG, the less informed the better and getting them to play whatever title is under the microscope and adding their comments to the analysis, while it's nice to have the numbers I'd be much more interested in how the games feel to the player, it would be more useful to those who are trying to decide which version to get too.
  • ectotropic #30 2 years ago

    @malmer, lol - well I aint exactly the best player ever either, but I can certainly tell when it's lag - I *know* I push the button when my character is still on the platform - I can see it! :oP I think you might be surprised how much you might improve with less lag.

    @Murton, it's a mistake to compare interactive and non-interactive media in terms of fps, for many reasons, but for this argument the biggest issue is that even though something may look smooth, it can feel very different. As long as the frame rate is consistent, even very low frame rates can look (reasonably) smooth, but will feel much like you are playing in treacle or that your button presses are being ignored. Of course many people do not notice it, but if you manage to give them a faster experience will improve their performance without being able to put their finger on why (I've seen this with friends whom I've helped better configure their PC games).
  • Vroom #31 2 years ago

    Excellent article as always.
  • kangarootoo #32 2 years ago

    Great article. This is the kind of thing I prefer from DF, rarther than game comparisons.
  • Murton #33 2 years ago

    ectotropic: true, but your point still reinforces the need to have someone comment on how the games feel at DF rather than just posting a load of raw numbers and then blasting which ever console posts the lowest figure as they do currently, but I guess page hits from fanboys are more important than impartial journalism.
  • ectotropic #34 2 years ago

    @Murton, experience is subjective, numbers are objective. If someone plays and has no problems with it and reports it as such that does not mean it will be ok for all - indeed many might find it unplayable. At least with numbers there is a chance of working out if a particular game is going to be a problem for you or not. Personally I find the current articles very useful and illuminating - and though I would not much mind them adding in a playtest for "feel" I would be wary of any conclusions drawn from it. (Also I think "feel" is better addressed in game reviews than these comparison articles.)

    Either way the result will be fuel for fanboy wars :oP

    Edit: Spelling
    Edited by 1 at 01/03/10 @ 14:56
  • thesombrerokid #35 2 years ago

    these two statements are deliberately misleading bordering on blatant lying.

    "The move to many-core architecture in these machines involves the use of parallelisation that has the potential to introduce higher latencies into gaming over and above the issues caused by displays and inherently lower-target frame-rates."

    sure parallelisation does have the potential to increase latency, it also has the ability and it's far mopre likely that in the future it will be used to reduce latency to near the theoretical minimum.

    "the fastest a 60FPS game can typically respond is in four frames"
    the equation for the theoretical minimum input lag on a system is:
    time it takes to recieve input + time it takes to process input + time it takes to display the frame
    on a pc game at 60 fps this could ber as low as 1ms + 1ms + 16ms or 18ms. or 2 effective game frames.
  • Feanor #36 2 years ago

    I'd love to know how RE 4 compares in latency to RE 5.