The Case for Kinect

By Richard Leadbetter Published 7 August, 2010

The strengths. The weaknesses. The facts. Digital Foundry investigates.

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As we move closer to Kinect's November release date, games developers are talking in more detail - on and off the record - about the new motion control system: what it can do, what it can't do, and what we should expect from the system going forward.

Microsoft itself is stepping up its marketing efforts. This week, two articles (one from T3 and another more impressive piece from Gizmodo) arrived, giving us our first peek inside the Kinect camera and giving us enough technical info to banish the somewhat unkind "EyeToy HD" talk that has dogged the internet since E3: Kinect is a state-of-the-art consumer-level piece of motion capture equipment with voice recognition and biometric ID capabilities and Microsoft wants you to know that.

In the meantime, since E3, Microsoft has shown the system working on TV shows, and rolled out playable demos in Macys stores across the USA, leading to a range of Kinect "fail" videos appearing online, along with attempts at other events to deliberately trip up the sensor with the use of baggy black, reflective clothing amongst other things.

Mileage may well vary, but we've been hands-on with Microsoft's demos and aside from an unfortunate experience for Eurogamer TV's Johnny Minkley with racing title Joy Ride, the system has performed pretty much flawlessly. Within the scope of the "experiences" the game-makers have sketched out, Kinect works, and the best games are going to prove compelling to a cross-section of the gaming audience that probably aren't so keen on the likes of Halo, Alan Wake and Crackdown 2, but more in tune with titles like Wii Sports and Wii Fit.

While core gamers fret about whether you can play Kinect sitting down, game developers are busy making titles that are, for the most part, physically impossible to play from a seated position any way: even the aforementioned Joy Ride has you swinging your ass about in order to drift the cars, and gameplay is for the most part structured into "bite-size" components so you don't get too tired, or spend too long on your feet. It's all about energetic gaming in a social environment - elements of the formula that made Wii such a success.

'The Case for Kinect' Screenshot inside1
'The Case for Kinect' Screenshot inside2

Microsoft released new images showing the Kinect sensor uncased. Four microphones (three to the right, one to the left) account for the width. Multiple PCBs suggest that the device really is somewhat more advanced than you might think and fairly expensive to build. There's a durable motor in there, plus a fan to dissipate heat. Kinect tracks you, adjusting the camera angle for the best view of the player.

That said, an investigation into the perceived limitations of Kinect reveals an intriguing truth: the device itself is merely a vehicle for supplying data to the console. What defines most of its capabilities is the software, and that is in a constant state of evolution. Forgetting this is a big mistake in evaluating the potential for Kinect as a gaming platform.

"Every day the technology and software improves, so we're constantly tuning it," bona fide games legend Tetsuya Mizuguchi told CVG, discussing development of new title Child of Eden. "Nothing is optimal at the beginning of a new technology, but it's been getting better and better the more we work with it."

At its most basic level, Kinect - as a device - offers up nothing more than raw data to the Xbox 360: a traditional webcam-style RGB image, a depth map from the 3D sensor and audio from the multi-array mic. The discussion about what the system can or cannot do is mostly about the interpretation of that data: many of the system limitations are actually software limitations, and software can be improved. Microsoft audits feedback from the developers of Kinect titles and improves this interpretation layer in regular SDK updates, so similar to the console development tools themselves, these will gradually become more powerful as the Kinect-specific elements of the SDK are worked upon.

Other developers are steering clear of the Microsoft tools and handling the raw data directly, as Blitz Games CTO Andrew Oliver - currently working on a Biggest Loser fitness game - revealed to Gamasutra this week.

"There are various technologies involved. Some people are using a skeletal system, and it takes a little bit of time to calculate. It's only a split second. We're actually using a different masking system, which can tighten things up," Oliver says.

"But this is all software-based, so where some people might see some little cracks, they're easily fixable by software. That is, the camera fundamentally works and gives you the input; game designers are running forward in a completely new area and learning this stuff. It's like any console. The first few games will look like nothing compared to second and third generation."

Lag in E3 Kinect Adventures was around the 200ms mark...

It's interesting to point out that Oliver is dismissive of the inherent latency built into the system.

"It depends on what technology you're using. I have seen a few games with a bit of lag, but that is the software choice of the creators; they've programmed it a certain way, and they'll come up with new techniques," he says.

"We will tighten and tighten it. There doesn't need to be a lag. We can get it down to maybe two frames behind, which is pretty insignificant; you won't notice. We're just learning new tricks. Ours is pretty tight."

It'll be intriguing to measure latency in the final version of Oliver's title because as regular Digital Foundry readers will know, a 30FPS game using a conventional controller typically has 100ms/six frame latency at the minimum, and that's without any Kinect processing.

An additional two frame lag is still within the ballpark latency for many pad driven games, but as discussed in our E3 hands-on, the sensation of latency with Kinect is increased by several factors: firstly, the human body as a controller is nowhere near as "quick to respond" as your fingers: the human body itself is "laggy". Secondly, gesture recognition incurs some pretty severe latency, most noticeable in jumping - and there's a lot of that in Kinect Adventures and Kinect Sports, to name just two titles. An on-screen gesture-driven animation can only kick in once the software has figured out what you're doing: it's not 1:1.

In truth, the two-frame claim also seems at odds with the realities of the Kinect set-up - processing the optical feed, producing the depth map and transporting it over USB 2.0 incurs a base-line latency even before the game itself gets its hands on the data. And of course we need to remember that Kinect itself only scans at 30Hz - in pad-driven games, latency leaps from a minimum of 66ms to 100ms when frame-rate drops down to 30FPS from 60FPS. A lower scan rate absolutely translates into higher latency.

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Comments (115) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • jag10 #1 2 years ago

    'aside from an unfortunate experience for Eurogamer TV's Johnny Minkley with racing title Joy Ride,'

    could of explained what happened.

  • Kerome #2 2 years ago

    It is a genuinely different experience. I'm not sure if people realise just how different it is - it puts a lot more power in the hands of the game developer, which is both good and bad. There are no buttons or mouse cursor, so doing good menu systems suddenly becomes harder. But at the same time, the system knows whether you're using your right hand or your left and can adjust without telling you, and can really put you in the game world - ducking is ducking, jumping is jumping.

    There's definitely room for developers to fluff their lines, but when they get it right, you can expect the results to be magical.

    As far as consumers are concerned, the pre-order numbers give a decent indication that people see the potential of the device, and like the idea of a new motion gaming "experience" beyond just a hand-held controller stick. That's probably the fairest measure of whether it will be a success or not, most of the commentary about it on the internet is coming from people who aren't really being targeted by either the activities being shown or the types of games... Not surprised that it polarises the press/commentators a bit ;)
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 10:07

  • supermaniacs #3 2 years ago

    No thanks!! I'll stick to the traditional, couch seating controllers which don't require you to look like a total arse!!!

  • Darren #4 2 years ago

    "You can even see it in the pricing: a £130 price tag for the sensor alone might not seem so compelling, but at £249 for an HD console/sensor combo with support for multiple players has a lot more appeal, up against a single-controller standard def Wii SKU at £180.

    Except the Wii very likely won't be £180 come November... I can almost guarantee it. Nintendo have already admitted Wii hardware sales are slowing down and that usually means a price cut is needed to 'stimulate' sales. With competition in the form of Move and Kinect this autumn it would be very stupid of Nintendo if they just sat their and did nothing about it.

    Kinect sounds like an intriguing concept from this article but I think the hardware is not advanced enough to offer the kind of experience that I was hoping for in terms of interactivity and responsiveness. No amount of software tweaking will overcome the pathetic 320x240 (SNES/Megadrive/Amiga resolution, fact fans!) scanning resolution. I suspect that a generation or two of hardware refinement will lead to a more impressive product (and hopefully a cheaper one too!). For now, I'm happy to wait and I'll give this one a miss, thanks.

  • Geordiemp #5 2 years ago

    Marks comments nailed it " It's really good for a certain slice of experiences like dancing or exercise"

    How many fit or dancing games can they do before consumer gets bored ?

    Wonder which comany will corner the dance Kinect market ? Thats the main one for devs....

    The rest of the games look poor.

    Also, for fighting or any action game, the Kinect camera is only 30 FPS and MOVE is 60 FPS at same resolution with less processing lag, so the wand will always be better for any action game with a club / sword / light saber....
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 10:16

  • DDevil #6 2 years ago

    Anothr Xbox-biased article by Digital Faildry. Show that EG is well in the pcket of M$. Evry1 nos Kinect is gonna be shit.

  • DDevil #7 2 years ago

    Nah just kidding. It's good to read an in-depth look at the highs and lows of this new tech. I'm still on the fence about both Kinect and Move, but I'm watching them keenly.

  • Roarster #8 2 years ago

    The comment about ignoring the Microsoft libraries is interesting. It reads to me like they're choosing to sacrifice accuracy in order to get reliable information (presumably this is smoothing out the random avatar flailing from the YouTube videos). This doesn't bode well for any traditional game experiences and might be a big part of why they're not presenting us with any.

    I'm sure a lot of the games will be fun, but it very much seems to occupy the "in the cupboard until you're drunk" space that most Wii's seem to be used for.

  • Machetazo #9 2 years ago

    "There's a very definite sense that Kinect is a "walled garden""

    Just as there remains a similar very definite sense that Xbox Live is a walled garden. This approach so far, has proven to be ok, until they want to offer a broader range of services, and then things get held up and disappointingly, do not progress in particular directions.

    While on the subject of "fact or fiction", for Kinect, do you need 6ft of space between yourself and it, to use the thing? I read through, but I didn't see that covered in the article.

  • Britesparc Verified Creative, ITV #10 2 years ago

    The sorts of gaming experiences Kinect offers are - potentially - totally different from what we're doing now. Aside from the sci-fi hand-wavy Minority Report-y type of stuff - which obviously attracts me no end - Kinect is exciting because of what it might bring to the table in the near future.

    So I want it to be a mega success for two reasons: 1) brand new exciting types of gaming experiences, and 2) the more people that play games - casuals, hardcore, old women, foetuses, etc - the better.

  • Goodfella #11 2 years ago

    @ frod

    Kietcn

    Worst spelling of Kinect ever, lol.

  • mattnlis #12 2 years ago

    why the article mentions child of eden quite a few times as if its a platform exclusive when its not im not sure... ive no desire to play next gen dancing and fitness games so im gonna give it a miss... i will pick one up in 12 months when they reduce the price to £20 to clear all the excess stock that the shops have...
    Should have saved the tech till they release their next console to be honest

  • Geordiemp #13 2 years ago

    Do DF think that the removal of the extra processor in the Kinect hardware meant they had to reduce the resolution of the camera to 320 x 240 (or whatever it is) so that the 360 does not loose too much overhead / lag...

    Make you think that the processor included Kinect would have been a more capable system, but MS chose profit over performance given market would not pay much over £ 150 anyway....
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 10:53

  • TRUTH #14 2 years ago

    A remote will always feel better for accuracy and control, and you know what your doing without confusing and wondering what's happening onscreen as with Kinect; also the accuracy is so much more precise (most remotes these days you don't even need to point in the direction of the screen) and quicker as you can find what you want just looking at the remote, with better/precise control over volume, color, fwrd, rwnd etc and all minor adjustments...As with games can't see myself playing driving games, fps, sports, fighting etc for hours without a joypad; which has so much more control and depth & accuracy input then what Kinect can ever do - esp on games that require deeper control and more complex movements: Street Fighte IV and more deeper games Fight Night 4, UFC 10 movements (easy on joypad control sticks)...Kinect will never be able to replicate these movements, unless dimbing them down to simplify the game to something like Wii boxing! - NO WAY!

    Some form of physicality in the control is the problem - it's useless when your tired, stressed, hurt, physically unable, in the dark, feel lazy, can't find your glasses, want to sit back or lie down (as most people do when playing games) etc etc...Kinect has more problems not having a physical tool to control with, then not!
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 11:14

  • MeBrains #15 2 years ago

    to me it is strange that the article starts with "this is not the next EyeToy". Even after the good read, I still come away with that impression.

    Is it not absolutely and completely normal that the technology behind camera devices moved on in the 6y's since the EyeToy's release?
    Edited by 2 at 07/08/10 @ 11:15

  • Miths #16 2 years ago

    It's a shame that Kinect seems tailor made for casual games and very difficult to implement for typical "core" games. It could have been the thing that convinced me to buy a 360 again, particularly with the new smaller and quieter model available.

    Let's hope there will at least be some non-casual titles coming up later that will find new and creative ways to make use of Kinect, because while it's unlikely that anyone is ever going to convince me to move furniture aside and stand in front of my TV looking down at it from a less than ideal angle in order to play a game, it certainly seems like a technology that ought to have some kind of potential for something a bit more inspired than dancing and jumping.

    Meanwhile I'm thrilled that Move is turning out to be a slightly more advanced and precise Wiimote knockoff - I can't wait to play shooters and assorted other action/adventure games with pointer/motion controls.
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 12:43

  • Goodfella #17 2 years ago

    @ frod

    Did I miss something, in what way is it a joke?

  • makeamazing #18 2 years ago

    I've had a Wii, and don't think i want to go down the super casual route again. I am considering getting another Xbox for my office at some point... but i really don't think Kinect is going to be for me at all, and i truly believe that many people are going to buy it - exactly like the wii when it first came out and be disappointed.

    Why are people still talking about being excited by Minority Report control, its already been shown that it is nowhere near that in both terms of speed usability.... people are still expecting it to be that good, i just don't get it.

    Anyway, I still think this is very useful tech for the Future, and perhaps in 10-20 years it could be exactly what people are wanting, but credit to MS, they have spent alot of money on it, and only when companies spend lots of money on something, generally can it get better results. So even if its rubbish and doesnt do what people want, its at least had people and resources on it to help improve it the next time around (as long as its not a disaster and they drop it).

  • phAge #19 2 years ago

    "In our view, PlayStation Move is the most flexible, versatile motion controller for either HD console. It's patently superior to Wii and indeed the MotionPlus upgrade."
    WHAT
    THE
    FUCK?!

    EG is supposed to be "teh 360 fanb0is" - and now THIS shit?!? I, quite frankly, am shocked.

  • dsmx #20 2 years ago

    A latency above 50ms is noticeable, at 100 ms it impacts game-play and at 200ms it's bordering on unplayable in any games that require reactions. Until the problems of latency are fixed in games it will never be able to be used in anything other than basically eye-toy games.

  • briguy05 #21 2 years ago

    I have preorderd the Kinect as I think it will be an excellent accessorie for the 360. Im not going to start a match of which is better the move or kinect but friends of mine who work in gamestop used the playstation move and they said its amazing nothing at all like the wii. At the end of the day if the games for Kinect are excellent the accessory will sell this is where the games devoplers come into it.

  • Rack #22 2 years ago

    It may be unkind to call Kinect Eyetoy HD, but also clearly untrue. Since when is 320x240 HD?

    Given the market it's aiming at I wonder why they included all the expensive depth sensors at all. The casual market isn't exactly discerning and I reckon a sufficient marketing push behind a straight up eyetoy 3 years ago or even today would have served them far far better.

  • superstu1337 #23 2 years ago

    Here's my case for connect summed up pretty simply:

    Pre-Order = Cancelled.

  • des #24 2 years ago

    Oh look another motion control EG article...
    After years of ignoring motion controls...fad has finally become something worthy of writing...EG has really gone to shit
    Funny thing is that DF doesn't even have Kinect...lolz

  • sentinal101 #25 2 years ago

    Nice to have some sound factual arguments into why kinect might be great or might not. loads of the negative comments about it are so obsessed solely with the fact that MS are focusing kinect on the casual market and the games wont appeal to them and so its crap ? WTF ? Its aimed at that big money casual market ! its the share MS want to go for, and for very good reasons. Kinect definitely stands a really good chance at being very successful, the games that are going to make kinect big this Christmas are going to be imo dance central and fitness evolved. and anyone who says its too expensive is being a bit naive as the masses were happy to pay £70 for a wii fit board on top of the wii itself just for that one game. The fact that kinect's power and future is in it software and the many updates it will get to improve and expand its potential is encouraging, and I don't mind admitting I'm excited to see for myself what it can do. Dance central sure to be a big party pleaser and fitness evolved a must have for the wives, mums out there. Its not immediately great news for core gamers wanting a part of MS next big spend so i do get the pessimism and neg comments and am bracing myself for the deluge of negs to this comment, but i would stress to the kinect haters out there a. have you played the finished product yet ? b. at worst kinect will bring more 360's into more peoples homes meaning more support from developers for the platform and more games (hard core included), so just watch this space and chill.

  • StooMonster #26 2 years ago

    @ afroofdoom: fair points, however, those kind of consumers you describe have bought 23-million Wii Fit at RRP of £89.99 (wise shopping around discounts aside); that's nearly as many Wii Fit Balance Boards as Sony PlayStation 3 out there, not quite, but still a very large number sold. That's evidence of how price sensitive they are when it comes to video games.

    No matter what we think on Eurogamer, or elsewhere on the internet, I imagine Microsoft have spent a fortune on 'price discovery' marketing research and will sell more Kinnect than armchair (deskchair?) pundits give them credit for. I think if Microsoft bundled some kind of dance game with the system, it woul be a Wii Sports like killer-app; although I suspect it's going to be difficult to get Harmonix to bundle Dance Central.

    As a long-standing hardcore-gamer Kinnect might not be my cup-of-tea for every game I play, but I plan to order one simply to jump about with the kids on Xmas day (annoy the in-laws) and beyond ... unlike some posters above I'm not stuck to my couch and don't mind looking like an total arse either.

  • FutureDave #27 2 years ago

    For how long will we be told to 'imagine' the possibilities of Kinect? A few months away and we're still listening to devs talk about the thing as if it was still in R&D. At least Sony are showing real tech demos of Move, whether or not they hit retail.

  • BillyBrush #28 2 years ago

    tbh the big casual audience they wan't isn't me...i'd like to see Child Of Eden come out, have very quick response/control, then i'd be wanting one...otherwise it's a no. I can see if you've got a couple of kids, they'd like kinectimals/dancing etc....but the core market in my opinion is more valuable than the casual market (MS have been doing very well this gen by appealing to the core), and i think they'll find that out the painful way.

    The one aspect i am dissapointed in them is their competitiveness, in the past they've gone head on with their rivals, and E3 09 for me was one of those situations where Ballmer should have looked at the Sony demos which to be fair were super responsive, and said to someone 'you have to match that aspect, or we're not launching' But instead they've taken the angle that they're so different and new people won't be looking at things like responsiveness and jumping to conclusions...they truth is they do/will, and for some good reasons, beleiving it before you see it is never a good strategy, especially when it's pricey.

    At present this is a 'sit there and wait until they prove it is what i want' situation...so perhaps they do that in a year...that's not a great way to launch a device, the uptake from core gamers is going to be very slow....and that could/will imo be a very painful period for them, and the developers who could be hung out to dry early on.

    I think one thing they should do re the core is...not needing to make a game at all, make a simple tech demo to show how fast it can process and respond to an arm being waved up and down fast on a screen...because we've not seen evidence of that, we've heard talk of it.

  • StooMonster #29 2 years ago

    OK, I need to learn to spell Kinect (bloody marketing, made-up words). Just checked and the bundled title is Kinect Adventures http://ww w.xbox.com/en-US/games/splash/k... rather than Dance Central which I'll have to order separately, I think they've missed a trick there.

    One question about Kinect does arise ... and that is of multi-players on same Xbox, how does it work?

    I know Microsoft are updating dashboard in November, for two key reasons: (a) adding support for Kinect, and (b) offering Xbox Live Gold Family Pack http://www .xbox.com/en-US/live/familypack, with Family Center to manage memberships. Are they going to make it easier to log four family members on at once to play games and capture stats and scores (individually as per Wii Mii) or are they going to keep as-is where one player is logged on to Xbox Live (and gets all the achievements and game points)?

    Edit: bloomin' HTML tags, and added URLs.
    Edited by 2 at 07/08/10 @ 12:57

  • sentinal101 #30 2 years ago

    @billybrush very fair points and i def agree with most of what you said. Just not sure about the core gaming market being more valuble than casual, you just have too look at Nintendo. Sure the game attachment rate might be slightly lower than sony/MS consoles but in terms of user base its miles ahead of the competition. I'd like to think there's room in the 360 for casual and hard core gamers and for a platform to successfully appeal to both benefits both sides.

  • JediMasterMalik #31 2 years ago

    @phAge - I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you disagree with their assessment of the 3 control systems?

  • StooMonster #32 2 years ago

    Technical question: how near to the screen does the Kinect have to be?

    My display is wall hanging and Kinect will have to sit on a rack about a metre below the screen. Will it still work?

  • Mkwone #33 2 years ago

    It's great that the technology in kinect works, but if there's no gaming experiances available that i'll enjoy for more than a few minutes then whats the point in me getting one.

  • Syrette #34 2 years ago

    Off topic, but those Child of Eden screenies make for excellent desktop images.

  • harhol #35 2 years ago

    If Child of Eden is anything like Rez, playing it with any kind of delay or imprecision will be incredibly annoying. Other games could work, but rather than droning on about "potential" we really have to look at what actually exists, as so far I see things like ten pin bowling and 3D breakout, in other words the bare minimum in terms of concept, budget and design. There are two possible reasons for this: either those types of games are all the technology can handle, or developers & publishers don't see any money in it and hence aren't putting any effort in. Either way, it doesn't look good.

  • Ryze #36 2 years ago

    Too many question marks over this technology.

    I'm not interested until the price is £80, with an amazing and highly rated title.

    I'll likely not buy in until there are 10 games worthy of my cash. They're damn right that this is like a new console launch. It's one where I'm not going to be an early adopter.

  • Nazo #37 2 years ago

    Interesting that there was no mention of the awful MS demonstration last week where Kinect Sports totally failed to pick up the models movement properly. MCV and Develop ran and then pulled the story quickly, makes me a bit suspicious about the pressures being put on press coverage at the moment.

    I think Kinect could be fantastic if it works properly but everything I've seen so far suggests it isn't quite there yet. MS should probably delay it to work all the kinks out and make sure it works perfectly at launch but of course they won't. I predict a lot of frustrated consumer stories and many more 'Kinect fail' videos on Youtube after launch.

  • Zimo #38 2 years ago

    I wish the ''Minority Report-style'' reference would be dropped, anyone that watched the film can see their wearing gloves, with blue lights at the end of the fingertips.
    Which in my view is closer to a PS3 Move method..

  • thubie #39 2 years ago

    @Zimo

    You're right about that.
    Inbe4 microsoft comes up with minority report gloves.

  • BAM! #40 2 years ago

    In the style of Tom Jones:

    Kinect, ooh, ahh,
    What is it good for,
    Absolutely nothing!

  • BAM! #41 2 years ago

    PS Child of Eden will be better with rumble, just like Rez was.

  • GreyBeard #42 2 years ago

    Very good summary, although I wish Richard would have given a bit more emphasis on detailing the quality of the visible light camera in Kinect versus Sony's offerings.

    This is very important as the IR sensor is only going to be returning gross "shape" data for processing, whereas finer detail must come from the regular camera with all the expected caveats that entails. The IR part may not be subject to variations in ambient lighting conditions, but the regular camera surely is and that's something that's going to be of interest to actual end-users.

    As Richard points out, only returning a 320x240 depth map doesn't give developers much data to work with, so I'd expect more finessed input -like facial recognition- to rely heavily on the normal optical camera. Much like Move, Kinect's real power is the result of multiple sensor inputs being composited together to give the an overall result higher in quality than any single component can offer.

  • miiiguel #43 2 years ago

    I have no pragmatic reason to want Kinect, aside from this need to have it in my living room. Shiny stuff, boys and toys, all that crap.

    /pre-orders.

  • dsmx #44 2 years ago

    Having seen a video of giantbomb playing kinect they had to remove the couch from the room so they'd haveneough space to play it., so your going to need quite a bit of space to play it.

  • morriss #45 2 years ago

    casualcachetlol

  • StooMonster #46 2 years ago

    RE: depth map of 320x240, does that really matter when combined with 640x480 colour camera?

    After all, JPEG pictures and digital video use compressed chroma (colour) at quarter of the resolution of luma (greyscale) -- look up 4:2:0 -- and I don't see lots of people complaining about that.

  • Markitron #47 2 years ago

    I would consider myself a typical 'hardcore' gamer, my definition of hardcore being that I own all the platforms so as to experience as many good games as possible (as opposed to the somewhat new Xbox-y definition of 12-16 year olds that only play online shooters). I was initially interested in Kinect as a new piece of tech but the games have absolutely killed my enthusiasm. Sony may have played it a little safe with move but it appears it does exactly as promised (unlike Nintendo) and they seem to understand that ppl like me will come for the new toy and stay for the games. The lower entry price certainly doesnt do it any harm either............

  • DavidBoring #48 2 years ago

    edge is reporting that kinect will be able to read signlanguage, lips and toe-movement, but the article or the patent do not mention the kinect hardware, so it may be for a next generation version of kinect, because according to the DF article it seems hardly possible

  • Dizzy #49 2 years ago

    "Make you think that the processor included Kinect would have been a more capable system, but MS chose profit over performance given market would not pay much over £ 150 anyway.... "

    Being an idiot doesn't hurt apparently.

    The CPU was removed to make sure the software could be modified and updated a lot more frequently and give devs their own way of playing with the data. Didn't you read the article.

    WIth the CPU it would have had almost zero impact on games and everybody and his dog would include some kind of Kinect features. Ovbiously MS has chose to use Kinect mainly for new type of games. It will do very, very well in the casual space. They chose that path. If you are hardcore and prefer a pad... no prob. Don't buy Kinect. You won't buy Move either BTW because that also offers nothing over a real pad/mouse.

    Kinect and Move are no competitors. Move is competing with the Wii. Kinect is trying to do something different.

    "so it may be for a next generation version of kinect, because according to the DF article it seems hardly possible "

    It is possible... you just have to be close to the camera.

    "Interesting that there was no mention of the awful MS demonstration last week where Kinect Sports totally failed to pick up the models movement properly"

    If you would have bothered you would have seen that there were about 100 other demos at the same venue that worked correctly.

    "It may be unkind to call Kinect Eyetoy HD, but also clearly untrue. Since when is 320x240 HD? "

    HD has to do with display... not with reading a 3D point cloud of your body.
    Edited by 4 at 07/08/10 @ 15:42

  • makeamazing #50 2 years ago

    If you would have bothered you would have seen that there were about 100 other demos at the same venue that worked correctly

    I fully understand your point, but if you have a million selling game and 1 out of 100 is going to get a totally non usable game at some point (and remember these were set up in more perfect surroundings than peoples homes), i suspect that is still not a good return.

    I appreciate i am over simplifying the point, but as someone else said, if the Kinect units are tempermental, then it will result in many unhappy users/youtube videos and overall will damage MS just as much as the RROD. If your building a brand and you want people to continue to buy into that brand, you have to be careful what you release is going to work (not saying it wont - just saying there are alot of issues that dont seem to have been resolved yet).
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 15:49

  • bladdard #51 2 years ago

    I see kinect as a way of pursuading the missus to let me get a 360, Singstar was my in when I wanted a PS3. I wonder just how typical this is.

    PS. We've all seen the E3 2009 kinect driving demo with the family sat on the sofa pretending to push accellerators and steering wheels but kinect cannot handle seated players so was that a load of bullshit or an aborted piece of R&D?

  • ronuds #52 2 years ago

    DF Says: "Kinect probably isn't for hardcore gamers at the moment, but it has a lot of potential."

    EG Members Response: "I'm angrily not buying Kinect, and it isn't capable of anything."

    Personally, it's exciting potential, but I'm with a lot of people in that I haven't seen much of it with the current crop of games. However, these are launch titles - and if I remember correctly, the launches of the Wii, 360 and PS3 were all plagued by the same issues. Aren't most launches?

    Of course, that's not to say it will definitely get better, but I can only see the potential going up from here.

  • metamorphic #53 2 years ago

    "Within the scope of the "experiences" the game-makers have sketched out, Kinect works, and the best games are going to prove compelling to a cross-section of the gaming audience that probably aren't so keen on the likes of Halo, Alan Wake and Crackdown 2, but more in tune with titles like Wii Sports and Wii Fit. "
    Therein lies the main problem. Both of these types of games are things one can do in real life, without the need to pay extra and hook up to a gaming console. Games are not meant to be replacements for real life activities such as exercise; that'd just be fooling yourself. Games are supposed to create and mold new worlds, storylines and the like-- what Kinect represents is not gaming, but a pale, poor, inferior imitation of real life. Thanks but I like to keep both things separate.

  • Vyggo #54 2 years ago

    @metamorphic: Tell that to Wii fit.

    People like that the game gives you a program and feedback on how many calories you burned. The gamey aspect gives people more motivation to put in some extra effort.

    Gaming is not only escaping into another world, it is perfectly suited for enhancing "normal" activities.

  • Geordiemp #55 2 years ago

    @ Dizzy

    You must be right, having an extra DEDICATED processor could not possibly improve the performance.

    There is little information about teh processor they removed, but it obviously did the processing of the debth imformation at the higher resolution shown in the original early demos....

    I must be an idiot and you sir are a genius.
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 16:50

  • irrelevanthuman #56 2 years ago

    'The case for kinect'-it sounds so defensive.Nothing I have seen thus far has persuaded me to buy Kinect,but its very early days and perhaps some killer app(or even several soild titles)down the line will change my mind.I have no desire to see it fail,the potential is certainly there,but Move is what I will be picking up this year.

  • androidave #57 2 years ago

    So.. the casual party gamers have either already got a Wii, or wont be able to tell the difference between this and the Wii so will just buy the cheaper one, so there not going to be intrested.. And the core gamers can't play any games whatsoever that appeal to them, can't use it properly without standing up and also a decent percentage would own a ps3 as well, so move would be the cheaper / better option..

    Just who is going to buy Kinect then ? o_O

  • Dizzy #58 2 years ago

    >I must be an idiot and you sir are a genius.

    For not reading the article and totally getting the reason wrong why the processor was removed yes you are. Nothing to do with making money, all to do with the fact that Ms had chosen to market Kinect for certain types of games instead as a waggle solution for everything like it was originally thought.

  • Quixz #59 2 years ago

    I will still buy one, it's just one of those things..

  • Geordiemp #60 2 years ago

    @ Dizzy, yes, the reason they removed processor is to save money. Yes they go after casual market.

    BUT, it does not say the performance got better from removing the hardwrae does it ?

    Evereyone who has followed Kinect knows it seemed better early doors, they removed and downscaled.

    And it was not to make software easier as you seem to guess.

    No I dont believe MS PR.

    Everyone has an opinion, dont call people idiots, there is no need for it.

    I may pick up kinect when there is a good game....
    Edited by 2 at 07/08/10 @ 18:11

  • Diomedes #61 2 years ago

    Well ,my thoughts...

    1)Its not what was promised ....no dedicated processor ,SD camera ,etc.

    2)The E3 2009 was smoke and mirrors ,as I told back then.

    3)Some features as scanning real world objets to play with them in games are a long way from now...

    4)It kinda works ...with lag ,limited input options etc but kinda works..

    5) It has real potential for a very few genres as golf games ,but its completely useless for a good numbers of genres.

    6) Playstation Move is the best of two worlds ,the most accurate controller ,with the augmented reality stuff and voice and head tracking capture of the camera based efforts and the accuracy of the sensors on the wand. It can also be patched very easily in lots of games ,whereas Kinect cant.

    7)Price point of Kinect will definitely hurt it. Move has a better entry point.

    8)The marketing push is what will give the products the initial push ,but I thing the mouth to mouth will hurt Kinect in the long run.

    9)The worst thing of Kinect is the lack of a proper remote controller. Without an analogue stick it will be absolutely impossible to see a game where you have to actually control the character in an open environment.
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 18:37

  • orangpelupa #62 2 years ago

    "PS. We've all seen the E3 2009 kinect driving demo with the family sat on the sofa pretending to push accellerators and steering wheels but kinect cannot handle seated players so was that a load of bullshit or an aborted piece of R&D?"

    If i remember correctly, Long time ago. When Kinek still called PROJECT NATAL. (its all caps right?)
    There a real Burnout game that Edited to compatible with NATAL.

    Those that tried it, can play burnout with seated. Use legs as accelerate.

    Maybe NATAL was 640x480 + CPU? O_o a lot powerfuler than Kinect.

    EDIT:
    arrr forget that. seems that i remembered wrong. They are not sitting.

    Btw, I realy wish Microsoft make Drivers for Kinect in Windows PC.
    also update the windos movie maker or something

    that will become most cheapest, hassle free, motion capture device :D :D
    Edited by 2 at 07/08/10 @ 18:48

  • TheNinkyNonk #63 2 years ago

    Anything with even the slightest possibility of lack of precision or wonky input is just not on I'm afraid. Especially at that price.

    Move along. No pun intended.

  • Rusty_M #64 2 years ago

    The only thing I'm really interested in Kinect for at the moment is if they implement similar features to TrackIR. I don't see any games that make me want it at the moment, and there's no point in having something like that if there's nothing I want to play on it.

    Time will tell I suppose

  • lucky_jim #65 2 years ago

    What are the odds that the Wii's price drops to £129 about two weeks before Kinect is released?

  • NotSoSlim #66 2 years ago

    Think Wii will go to £149.99 tbh. Also the Wii has the games, granted not alot of oustanding ones but the ones they do have with the price will see Kinect not make that much of a dent into the Wii's market share imo.

    Move is a totally different beast as that wont really take off until the console is cheaper and they have that killer app

  • Gambit1977 #67 2 years ago

    The preorders...who's to say its not just a Microsoft plant ordering under different users on the likes of amazon to increase sales?

    I'm not picking at it. It could, could be amazing. But so far I'm not convinced enough.

  • anomagnus #68 2 years ago

    I think its too soon for anyone to guess what's going to happen. Really, all kinnect is, is an interface.

    What will be tested will be the imagination of developers, and their abilty to find a way to make kinnect fit into a game in more than the most basic and cursory manner.

    I'm intrigued how kinnect could work in regards RPG's. For example, if you look at ME2, the two options are really rather basic. It is possible to say something in a real life, which would could be construed as bad, but would be mitigated by tone, body language etc.

    Imagine ME3 where kinnect could read the tone of your voice, your body language and how you reacted. Clearly, we're years away from that, but thats the potential in a full body peripheral. I think its exciting, but as i say, the real focus will be on developers. If this fails, i think MS still have a winning technolgy they can sell to TV manufacturers and Sky for example. No more clumsy remotes, just hand waves. How it does as a games technology, thats up to developers.

  • vizzini #69 2 years ago

    I personally think Microsoft's decision to abandon the original Kinect design; removing the extra silicon from the camera for the real-time image processing may have been the nail in the coffin for this project with respect to reducing lag and core gaming.

    Although it might seem like both Move and Kinect have parity with regards to borrowing processing from their systems, the difference between a symmetrical CPU Core (of the 360) that will randomly cache miss, versus an asymmetric SPU core (of the PS3 Cell) that has local memory that shouldn’t cache miss, is going to limit the amount of optimisation for Kinect quite quickly; even if developers program their own libraries.

    The stream processor design of the SPU cores, and their ability directly access the data-bus packets on the ps3 independent of the PPU, means that even issues concerning data-bus bandwidth contention can have good(isochronous) solutions for Move, where by contrast they are exacerbated and unpredictable on Kinect, because of the cache missing and the symmetrical core threading.

    Though this makes no difference to the casuals, the core gamer who invests in Kinect and is waiting for a low lag core experience is highly unlikely to get what they are wating for.
    Edited by 2 at 07/08/10 @ 22:19

  • smurphs #70 2 years ago

    Mark my words: this will flop big time. Nintendo have the 'just dance' market all sewn up, if Microsoft had spent their Kinect money on furthering their strengths: online, hardcore stuff, they would have been much wiser. This is just proof that too many execs in boardrooms are chasing an idea.

  • vizzini #71 2 years ago

    Introvertigo: I'm still waiting to hear how exactly the 1:1 of Move is "patently superior" to the 1:1 of WMP. They have the exact same capability of accuracy. By definition 1:1 is 1:1. No more, no less.

    WiiMotion Plus is certainly not sub-millimetre accurate like Move, and Move is less likely to suffer loss of control (like the E3 Zelda Demonstration) for three reasons.

    1. Handling Bluetooth (electromagnetic/radio) interference by using forward error correction is less problematic when you have CPU power to burn, like the ps3 does with the CELL.
    2. Move uses image recognition for pointer tracking so it doesn’t broadcast this information by Bluetooth and so it isn’t susceptible to the interference the Wiimote does when doing the same task.
    3. Move uses a seperate bluetooth transmitter for the subcontroller and so it doesn't put all its eggs in the one basket, like the wiimote & nunchuck controller(which share one transmitter).
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/10 @ 22:22

  • hiruu #72 2 years ago

    inect is going to "work" and deliver and as much as "core" gamers might hate it, I've found most of the "core" gaming crowd to be unrealistic in their expectations. As the article clearly pointed out, at it's core, software drives kinect, and I can assure you that by next E3, we will have seen a major software upgrade to kinect, delivering much better performance. Once the system gets a ground swell, developers will drive it in ways not really imagined before...that's what innovation is all about, which is something "core" gamers rarely see or have.

  • Simonkey75 #73 2 years ago

    In terms of Kinect and Move competing with each other, my straw poll of my friends, workmates etc has none of them having heard of Move - and I mean not one. But more than half had heard of Natal/Kinect even if they couldn't name it - ie. futuristic controller free camera thing. For better or worse, Natal/Kinect has generated far more mainstream awareness than Move has. Move will struggle to attract those who don't already or are intending to buy a PS3. Fortunately, Move appears to integrate far better with traditional gaming.

    I do think a lot of people are underestimating how well Kinect will sell, even at that price point - and of course it gives MS latitude to price drop over the next 18 months to encourage uptake. For a lot of partners, parents etc of people who already own 360s, Kinect is like buying their own console, so the price is less off-putting than we think.

    Lets put it like this, my wife took a look at the demos, Dance Central and Biggest Loser and immediately said "Right, I don't need my Wii anymore". Her birthday's in November and the pre-order is already in.

    Although if she thinks she's getting anywhere near my 360 during the biggest release quarter of the year, she has another thing coming :)

  • Arwin #74 2 years ago

    WMP can only do 1:1 for a few seconds. Search on youtube for table tennis wii move for an interesting comparison.

  • harhol #75 2 years ago

    In terms of Kinect and Move competing with each other, my straw poll of my friends, workmates etc has none of them having heard of Move - and I mean not one.

    SCEE don't really do advertising, or marketing, or common sense in general. It wouldn't be Europe if things weren't either six months late, twice as expensive or under-promoted.

  • drumbaby #76 2 years ago

    Eye Toy HD...yippee. If it turns out as bad as this article makes it sound, then God help Msoft.

  • xenoss #77 2 years ago

    How different is Kinect? Some like to believe it is so innovative that the negativity might be due to its being ahead of its time. But others have beaten me to mention EyeToy. Kinect is as different from EyeToy as Move is different from Wiimote. And however different the technology is, any can see the Wii direction they're heading right now. So how different is Kinect?

    On the other hand, if this was made by Apple... the Mac cultists will eat it up and the rest of the world will follow.

  • kimchibaka #78 2 years ago

    That video looked absolutely dreadful - could the guy have been moving his arm any more slowly (and have the on-screen response any slower?)?!

    Lag looks like the absolute killer here so far (to me). I just cannot see what this will be useful for...and at that price too...Move at least looks interesting and the tech seems totally proven.

  • riz23 #79 2 years ago

    The money I save by not buying a Kinect, or any other 'me-too' input device will go towards a 3DS. Although I was piqued by the early reports of Natal, the truth of Kinect is banal. There is nothing in it for me. I already have a Wii that sits around doing nothing, why add to that with a Microsoft or Sony peripheral?

  • gorf #80 2 years ago

    The Wii was first on the market with motion controllers and have cornered and completly soaked up all the available casual gamers. I honestly cant see MS or Sony making any great sucesses from their new controlers even with superior techs. Nintendo has its i-pod/i phone and the rest are scramberling for the scraps.

    PS I was hoping this tech would help on 1st person games but the latency issue could be a killer

  • Ryze #81 2 years ago

    Sad state of affairs here really. The spec of this device has been dumbed down to the point where it does now seem like EyeToy 2.

    It's definitely much more advanced tech, but it's essentially Eyetoy 3D. The games really have to do the talking. No finger recognition kills it on paper. Let's see what they manage to pull off.

  • Zerobob #82 2 years ago

    I only own a 360 but I have to say that I think Move looks to be a far better implemented concept so far, unfortunately for me.

    Move just looks so much more responsive and flexible and I think having to use a wand is a small price to pay for the amount of accuracy it achieves.

    That said, I don't think it'd make me rush out to get a PS3. This sort of technology always needs a 'bedding in' period and Move may not even be well utilised within games yet.

  • FutureDave #83 2 years ago

    At least dresses aren't as fashionable for girls these days. That's one problem MS won't have to worry about. Too much....

  • bongofury #84 2 years ago

    This is what I need to see from Microsoft before I go down the Kinect rabbit hole:
    1) A fast intuitive UI interface for navigating the dashboard (similar to the one in the marketing PR video from E3)
    2) The system being used with a controller as well.
    3) Some kind of mapping?scanning tech that shows the object you are holding used in the game and moved 1:1 with your movements.
    4) Any intelligent/ revolutionary use of Kinect in a game franchise/genre that I hive a shit about (not kinect sports or minigames)

    That shouldn't be too hard to come up with now should it?! Until these events happen I will happily give it a go but I won't part with any of my cash.

  • NotSoSlim #85 2 years ago

    If Wii drops price then Kinect will face an uphill battle. MS have said this is a new console launch so are putting all of the eggs they have in this on basket. Halo Reach will sell but new console owners?? Doubt it

    Sony have been a bit smarter in my opinion by not relying on Move to sell machines. Also all Kinect games are full RRP where as most Move games are not and with a cheaper entry point may help Sony.

    I just thisnk core gamers are going to be left out in the cold with Kinect and the dumping of Kinect support for Fable 3 shows that. They may want the casual crowd but what if they dont bite?

    MS are playing a risky risky game and it oozes arrogance of the position they currently have as the number 1 HD console.

  • DoctorFouad #86 2 years ago

    strange enough in this article is the no mention for a 2 p)layer limitation, this a is a huge limitation for consumers....4 players on one screen is impossible with kinect...

    but again with only a 30 fps camera and a low resoulution 320*240 scanning resolution for the 3D sensor bar...well people should forgot and stop dreaming about minority report controls...

    thus technology would be very impressive with the next generation of hardware (imagine what kinect woyuld be if used with 60 fps HD camera + a 3D HD sensor bar ? WOW I want to dream now....)

  • mrbandersnatch #87 2 years ago

    I'll be buying 1...when the Linux drivers get to a point to make this a usable HID. Kinect isnt just a toe in the water into the casual market, its a look by MS as to the possible acceptance for the controller on the next iteration of the XBOX.

  • dfua #88 2 years ago

    I'm not convinced yet but when you think wii fit plus retails at £90, and this has much more potential it. When comparing with the Wii compare the bundle at £250 with the Wii + Wii Fit Plus which is £280 bought individually or £225 in a bundle at Game it's almost competitive.

    If they can convince the mainstream I don't think price will be too important. It can be marketed as something new and different to the wii. It doesn't have to rely on tech speak like speed, accuracy, and power to convince people it's better than what they've already got.

  • makeamazing #89 2 years ago

    I think its fascinating... will those that have purchased Just Dance, Wii Fit, and Wii Fit +, would they move over to Kinect (or infact the oncoming fitness programs that will also work on the PS3). I think a section wont, but in some cases i do believe some sales will be garnered from this, because if people havent had success with one, they seem to move to the next. The question is will this be a large number or a small number.

    I think the dance game looks about the most interesting (even if it isnt directly showing your moves on screen, but showing you success or failure).

    Timing will be the key, because if a new range of fitness and dance programs come out on other platforms, i think this will eat up any large potential Kinect may have of persuading people to move across (for those looking for fitness/dance).

  • Zappa #90 2 years ago

    Kinect is laggy on rails only crap!!1

  • monkfishjoe #91 2 years ago

    @NotsoSlim - Sony is expecting Move to shift units. That's the whole purpose of developing something like this. They're relying on people getting fed up with SD graphics and upgrading to a PS3 and Move combo. Also, just because MS are focusing on the 'Casual' market for Kinect, doesn't mean they will stop developing product for the 'hardcore' audience. I think that core gamers have a very limited viewpooint on this kind of thing. It shows an ignorance that doesn't do well for the traditional gamer stereotype.

    @DoctorFouad if you read the Gizmode article linked from this one, you will see that the 2 player limit was a design choice, not a hardware limit. Kinect can see six users at once (but only 2 playing at once). Once software is optimized there is nothing to stop MS from patching the system to allow more active players. That is why they went for the software soloution instead of the fabled 'bone chip' that everyone went mental about.

  • vizzini #92 2 years ago

    monkfishjoe: That is why they went for the software soloution instead of the fabled 'bone chip' that everyone went mental about.

    If the custom silicon had been a stream processor (like an SPU core) with low latency memory then Kinect could have eliminated most of the lag, used a higher resolution camera and capture rate, and would have placed as little demand on the data-bus as a wired pad or arcade joystick.

    As it stands Kinect has to transfer (320x240x24bit x30frames ~= 6.5MB per sec for each camera, equating to 13MB/sec (2x6.5MB/sec) of raw data when both cameras are being used.

    Assuming Kinect internally uses either lossy or lossless compression (at around 3:1) we are probably looking at around 4MB/sec of data-bus traffic just to send the data to main memory without doing any image recognition on a Xenon core. Moving the data back out of main memory into the CPU cache for processing naturally uses more data-bus bandwidth and can potentially cache miss on each access to main memory which is a big problem for lag in Kinect.

    So going for a (symmetrical core) console software solution isn't likely to be anywhere near as good as a stream processor in the camera with its own upgradeable software.

  • Bander #93 2 years ago

    I'm wondering, given the high price of Kinect, if perhaps the camera is capable of higher resolutions for the sake of future proofing the peripheral for the 360's successor, or more optimised software, or for tracking something easy to distinguish, like Move's glowing balls. Or even just making it capable of exceeding the 1.3 megapixels and 60fps mode of Live Vision. And if not, why not?

    Phone cameras far exceed the specs of Kinect, with some even offering 120fps modes. And stand-alone digital cameras are so cheap, I don't think anyone would object to paying a tiny bit more for 3 megapixels sensors or higher. Combined with a wide angle lens, and software that is selective about which part of the sensor array it draws data from, it would do away with the need for Kinect's motorised base also, and allow for greater precision when doing something like tracking only one body part, or scanning in an object. It may even make the idea of the virtual keyboard possible.

  • JensonJet #94 2 years ago

    So it's ideal for exercise and dance games. It's incapable of recognising lip or finger moviements. It suffers from worse lag than any other controller, and it has a microphone. It's effectively aimed at the casual/Wii gamer. So it's primary target audience semms to be Asia from what I can gather! How well does the 360 sell over there?

  • DoctorFouad #95 2 years ago

    @ monkfishjoe :

    I agree with the comment of vizzini, having a hardware solution in kinect instead of relying on xbox360 CPU doesent mean at all that this hardware cannot be programmed and its performance optimized through time with an evolutive software-formware upgrade (like any other upgradable firmware we find on a lot of consumer electronuic devices today, even some TVs today have upgradable software)

    Actually this argument of why Microsoft abondoned hardware signal processing solution for Kinect (to allow flexibility in software, so it is more efficient) is a pure marketing false argument, it is totally the opposit. The real reason is very clear : COST, it is less expensive to produce Kinect without an internal processor, thats all, it is as easy as that.

  • DoctorFouad #96 2 years ago

    @ Bander,

    I think Microsoft didnt go for a higher res camera for 2 reasons :
    1/ Cost : yes even 3$ + cost is a considerable ammount of money for any enterprise wanting to sell millions of those devices (you do the math lol)

    2/ less processing intensive for the 360 CPU, processing 1.3 megapixel worth of data at a rate of 60fps would be reallly computationally expensive + even USB2 bandwidth limitations (considering you have also to send the 3D sensor bar signal data)

    3/ for the sensor bar being low res 320*240 instead of 640*480 thats really due to costs.

    Kinect 2or an equivalent from the competition (Wii 2 ?) if it ever happened would be very interesting with an HD camera + HD 3D sensor, I cant wait for this technology to develop...But the actual Kinect it is clear that the technology is very limited for any finger recognition-reliable interface system...it is like the Wii motion sensor capacities, technically very limited (compared to motion+ or Move) but software (wii sports, wii play, wii fit...) did the rest...would software do the same for Microsoft ? I dont think so...but we will see...

  • Kalime #97 2 years ago

    Microsoft, please stop bringing unfinished product to market. Everything can be updated/improved through software... well, do it before you launch, I'm sick of paying for unrelieable, unstable, unfinished crap.

    Thank you nintendo and sony for ensuring your product have met a certain level of quality and finish before launching.

  • geeza2020 #98 2 years ago

    Still seems like a cash-in to me. I want to see some games I actually want to play before i spend any money on this.

  • youhavenomail #99 2 years ago

    Kinect's fitness games will be rubbish compared to Wii Fit. Kinect doesn't even have a balance board to tell you what a gross, fat pig you are when you log on.
    Edited by 1 at 09/08/10 @ 11:08

  • CHAZBIGPOTATO #100 2 years ago

    Things I tcan think of that may work well on this..

    Personal training software(martial arts or weight lifting technique for example)
    Cricket
    Tennis
    Golf
    Acting
    Dancing

    Now some of those are quite appealing to me (not acting or dancing!) and could really work well, all are really simulations, not games.
    The one positive I can think of is getting coaching from the system to improve technique which would be of great benefit if done properly.
    If I were to get this system, I doubt I would get any kind of software anywhere near the traditional game type stuff that seems to be all I can see at the moment, anything like "holodeck" type experiences that may end up being possible look a long way off yet.

  • TwitchyMcTwitch #101 2 years ago

    "There's a strong argument that Kinect is able to forge its own identity with a line-up of wholly new games. As Marks says, there's absolutely no way that Kinect can replace Move, but it's good to have a very different choice which pushes developers to try something new: Child of Eden, anyone? "

    Which is absolutely great. Up until you realize making games for an HD console isn't exactly cheap and developers or more accurately 3rd party publishers don't like to take risk. Tie that into the fact that MS relies mainly on 3rd party developers to bring in the good games and I would say we may have a bit of a problem.

  • monkfishjoe #102 2 years ago

    @Vizzini (mainly) and Doctor

    I said nothing about lag - merely the number of players. Doctorfouad got it spot on with cost. The onboard processing for the video would have been cost prohibitive for a unit with Kinects purpose.

    Of course, us interested in tech think it's purpose is to be a full body motion capture suite for home use (and how I'd love for someone to develop some film effect software for Kinect), but for MS the purpose of Kinect is to chase Nintendo's casual audience. MS are following the lead of Nintendo is using the most cost effective tech possible to get a price point that the masses would be happy with (well, not quite it seems, but nearly).

    The audience MS are aiming for are not concerned with the fine grain control a full spec system would have given - they merely want to flap around infront of the TV and see there actions mimiced (and who can blame them)!

  • Bander #103 2 years ago

    Erk! Negged. I wonder why?

    @ DoctorFouad: Regarding cost, I would have expected MS to be happy to ditch the motorised base if they could. No webcams have them to my knowledge, but would benefit from them by the same amount, so I'm quite sure that higher-res wide-angle webcams are preferable even if people don't have the bandwidth to make full use of them. A benefit of wide-angle is that you can also be closer to the camera instead of standing several feet back, without fear of your head and feet being cropped out. And you can have more people in view of the camera at once, if this was to be of any use to a game.

    More picture data could well exceed what the Kinect software is capable of processing, but a prop that's easy to spot without help from the IR sensor could provide the precision that Move boasts, and the software could be selective. For example, the Nokia N8 has a 12MP camera and can record 720p video. There's no optical zoom, but the phone can use a small part of the 12MP array to enable up to 3x zoom without the picture becoming blurred or blocky.

    Thinking about it further though, maybe the IR sensor has some optical issues which prevent it from being reliable at higher resolutions. Perhaps the emitter becomes useless at a wide-angle, as presumably it is just an LED. Then again, remote controls work well enough if you bounce the beam off of a ceiling or the wall behind you, so I'm not sure if that's it.

    I'm hoping Kinect will be like the 360 itself - 720p and 1080i back at launch but capable of 1080p and several extra VGA resolutions later on. Maybe 320x240@30fps is a temporary deliberate software limitation. But that motorised base suggests otherwise, and so I'm not sure if I should support this early version of Kinect. I quite like the voice recognition side of it too, but will anything other than Kinectimals and the dashboard support it?

  • vizzini #104 2 years ago

    monkfishjoe: The audience MS are aiming for are not concerned with the fine grain control a full spec system would have given - they merely want to flap around infront of the TV and see there actions mimiced (and who can blame them)!

    So why did they mislead everyone in the original E3 presentation of what it might do?

    And why do we have Peter saying today that Kinect can do core games?

    By using the words “can do”, I think that means that Microsoft currently aren't working on any at the moment, and the statement seems to imply that a low lag core game experience will be available on Kinect in the future.

    For technical reasons already commented on in this thread; the absence of a stream processor (in either the Kinect's camera or the 360 CPU) is a big problem to produce (consistent) low lag image recognition controls, especially if the 360's data-bus, memory and CPU is being thrashed by the demands of a AAA game's data and models.

    Microsoft can't have their cake and eat it; Sony have taken enormous flack from the stalwart PC developers for many years about the learning curve required to develop for their PS2 and PS3 consoles that use stream processors.

    But now that the 360 or Kinect camera really needs a stream processor core, to do the task they showcase @ E3 2009, they want us all to lower our expectations and trust that optimizations on their symmetrical core system will achieve, what is most likely impossible; when working with a game more advanced than Duck hunt.

  • monkfishjoe #105 2 years ago

    Vizzini: "So why did they mislead everyone in the original E3 presentation of what it might do?"

    Um...marketing? To spoil the party for everyone else? Because it was initially going to be a different spec? Because console manufacturers have been doing this kind of bullshit spouting for years!!

    It's just part of the game. Maybe they thought they were going to be able to produce the Kinect sensor bar they wanted too, but realised it would just be too expensive. The past 9 months have been expectation management from MS and it's affiliates. They know they can't produce the tech they wanted too at the mo, but are probably hoping it will be good/successful enough to warrent making it an integral part of the next gen console (hopefully meeting or exceeding the planned original specs).


    "By using the words “can do”, I think that means that Microsoft currently aren't working on any at the moment, and the statement seems to imply that a low lag core game experience will be available on Kinect in the future."

    It's possible that 'core' games will use it in the future. I think MS's initial target is the casual market, but someone will use Kinect for some part of a core game. It's not good enough (at the moment) to make a full body FPS, but it can be used with the pad for the fine control.

    Just out of interest (still towards you Vizzini) are you going to buy one? The more I read/see about it the more I think it may be worth £130 (even if it's not what we were all expecting/wanting), but I really need to try it out.

  • matpsp #106 2 years ago

    Has anyone asked Microsoft how people in wheel chairs can play Kinect? I think they've dropped a bollock on that one!

  • Geordiemp #107 2 years ago

    ^^

    Sick joke

  • BlinxHDD #108 2 years ago

    I'm not sure what Child of Eden's supposed to prove here. It's basically Rez 2, Rez controls more comfortably and accurately with a DC or PS2 controller than Mizuguchi's wavy white gloved Kinect demo.

    As a pointing game, a game enhanced by rumble feedback of the tempo and a game where instant button response smart bomb usage can be critical for a perfect run of the level, it's a game far better suited to the Wii Remote and Move.

  • chuck_bone #109 2 years ago

    Well FWIW I went to the Kinect Galleries in Covent Garden today.
    Did I have fun? Yep - it was indeed lots of fun and I can see it being more involving than Wii or Move, but was it worth £130 of my hard earned cash?
    Absolutely not. I already have a Wii, an although the Kinect experience is good, it's not THAT good that I'd ditch my Wii and start again.
    Furthermore, I had issues with the lag and the rom required to play in. Forget the camera feild of vision - it's the jumping up and down, leaning and swaying about. They had huuuuge 'living room' areas that were optimal for the type of stuff th Kinect does, but far bigger than mine, and certainly bigger than a lot of teenagers bedrooms!
    Lag was definitely there. IN Kenectimals, I never felt like I was actually in control. When my ghostly hands appeared to stroke and tickle my pet, the seemed to have a life of their own unless i slowed right down.
    Joy Ride was fun, but I always found I was never truly in control. Kinect Adventures felt the most responsive, but I never seemed to react in time to avoid things - I felt quite frustrated at the end!

    Sure, if the software improves, and I'm sure the type of game will too - but there's no way I'm throwing £130 notes down to add this to my XBOX 360.

    I'm just waiting for the first reports of people coming through their floors after jumping up and down playing Kinect games!

  • chuck_bone #110 2 years ago

    The Rep at the Kinect Galleries said that wheelchair users can play Joy Ride as it only maps the upper body. But no, being that you cant jump in a wheelchair, it wont work for disabled users.

    However, it's hardly a criticism you'd just level at the Kinect - PS Eye, Wii Fit, and any number of dance mats have the same issue!

  • chuck_bone #111 2 years ago

    ----not to mention the blind!

  • bluetoothion #112 2 years ago

    Someone said something about a sick joke

    players on wheelchairs will be able to play ''Joy ride'' Jesus

  • matpsp #113 2 years ago

    chuck_bone-"The Rep at the Kinect Galleries said that wheelchair users can play Joy Ride as it only maps the upper body. But no, being that you cant jump in a wheelchair, it wont work for disabled users.

    However, it's hardly a criticism you'd just level at the Kinect - PS Eye, Wii Fit, and any number of dance mats have the same issue!"

    The PS Move and Wii dont have the same issues at all. All of the movement is done with the use of a control unit, which can be used by people in wheel chairs and disabled people in general. The majority of games are controlled in this way. However Kinect is the opposite of this where most of the games will be controlled with full body mapping and you having to stand up to control the on screen character etc. How many of these units will be miss sold by retailers. As a retailer myself, I can see this as being a bit of a PR own goal by Microsoft. Once Kinect is released and the main media pick up on this aspect, I think it'll become more of a problem. Many disabled gamers will buy Kinect, not knowing that it cant be used sitting down or with it having problems picking up the mapping of the full body because they use a walking stick/crutch. The Wii and PS Move can be used with one hand to overcome this problem, Kinect cant. I may be wrong but I cant see it.

  • TRUTH #114 2 years ago

    I think MS need to answer some serious questions regarding Kinect - people are really dissing it BIG TIME!...Also MS has ben releasing games that should be AAA title, not dumb cheap Wii substitutes. Also MS lack of respect for gamers making exclusives seem like add-ons, or games which never really push anything a AAA should: Crackdown 2, Fable II, Alan Wake, Halo 3... MS are losing the plot...Also Rare, MS have made them just lapdog's making crap!
    Edited by 1 at 14/08/10 @ 11:12

  • Loghorn #115 2 years ago

    @Argentlupine: If this product succeeds, & if this thing becomes mandatory onto their next gen console by ditching the regular controller, then the 360 will most likely be the only XBox console that I'll buy. I buy consoles to sit down & to relax while playing gaming, not to move my whole body around & wave my hands in the air like a moron.

    Plus I agree with what NotSoSlim is saying. What should happen when Nintendo drops the price of the Wii console during the holiday season (such as from $200 to $150 in North America, which I currently live in; somebody will have to figure out for me on what the prices are in the UK & Japan)? Most people will most likely pick up the Wii. Plus Microsoft is stupid for alienating their core fanbase all for a unknown & untested product which may or may not work properly at all. I hope this thing bombs so that Microsoft will look incredibly stupid & will go back to developing games which made their fanbase popular this long into this gen.