System Failure: Why PS3 and 360 drop dead for the same reasons

By Richard Leadbetter Published 29 August, 2009

Digital Foundry meets the man who fixes your consoles.

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In a week where Xbox 360 production boss Aaron Greenberg stated that Microsoft's hardware issues were "well behind us", I found myself finally facing up to the notorious unreliability of the older 360 consoles, and attempting to do something about it.

In many ways, this feature is an off-shoot of a personal story. Readers of the Digital Foundry Twitter feed will know that both of my retail Xbox 360s died of RROD in quick succession. While Microsoft was nice enough to send me a new PAL "Jasper" model, swapping out my prized NTSC 360 Elite, originally purchased for a Eurogamer hardware test would be much more difficult. Over and above the luxuries of having the ability to play region-locked games, the concept of binning off two consoles that cost me the best part of £600 was basically wasteful and unacceptable. Something had to be done.

Looking for a more permanent resurrection for my unit, I'd heard that the best fix involved the rather manly-sounding process of "reballing" the GPU - resoldering the joints from the motherboard to the graphics chip. That being the case, I found myself at my nearest independent console workshop, Colchester Computers, staring at their impressive BGA rework/reflow station. Working from an industrial unit just off the Essex town's bizarre Magic Roundabout, this was an interesting opportunity to find out from the experts first-hand why the average games console ceases to function, and how they are fixed. Upon arrival at the workshop, the vast stack of dead consoles up against one wall ("spare parts") was somewhat eye-opening.

Talking to the company's engineer, Darren Thickbroom, it instantly became apparent that many of the Internet truths surrounding the console failures were anything but, and that the heat dissipation issues that plagued every revision of the Xbox 360 up until the most recent Jasper version were hardly exclusive to the Microsoft console. Slowly but surely, just like its competitor, the issue of PlayStation 3 reliability is being brought into question.

While the scale of the so-called YLOD issue is difficult to judge in context of the all-pervasiveness of RROD, the fact is that what I learned on my visit was pretty shocking: whether you own a Microsoft or Sony console, it seems that the act of simply using our consoles for the job they were designed can cause cumulative damage, with the very real danger that our games machines may go "pop" after the manufacturer's warranty expires.

"Your Xbox might last two or three years - it's as much down to the environment as the hardware itself," says Darren Thickbroom. "You open up some machines and you can understand why it might have broken down or over-heated, maybe there's tons of dust or fluff that came in from the intake. It depends from person to person, we speak to some people over the phone who've been through three to five units since the launch period. If you're a serious player, I'd recommend you change or upgrade your Xbox after a year."

Thickbroom also deals with many dead Xbox 360s that have had the so-called "X-Clamp" fix and reckons that it is essentially a complete waste of time - something worth bearing in mind if your out of warranty 360 suddenly bites the dust and you fancy tackling it yourself. "The Internet" has decreed that the clamps, attached to the base of the motherboard and securing the heatsinks, do the job too effectively, causing the motherboard to warp in concert with the heat generated by the CPU and graphics chip. However, over four years into the lifespan of the machine and many hardware revisions later, the clamps remain in Microsoft's design, and Thickbroom will replace any of these homebrew fixes with the original securing mechanism. The blame lies elsewhere, he reckons.

"It's just the general design and the heat factor," he says. "Everything's combined into such a small space, the heatsinks on the GPU are relatively small, there's a lot of heat to dissipate and it can't do it. The trapped heat warps the boards and that's what causes the problems over a long-term period."

Based on Thickbroom's experience, it would seem that the entire X-Clamp replacement industry is effectively a waste of money. With the DIY procedure, the real "fix" comes from the process of reflowing the solder after the clamps are replaced. In effect, you remove the fans from the 360, and allow it to massively overheat. Let it cool down again and in most cases service, post-RROD, will be resumed. But unless you're particularly lucky, it is a short-term fix, if it works at all. Reflowing is a precision job requiring precision tools, and the DIY method is akin to attempting to paint the Mona Lisa with fingerpaints. Professional repair shops will use a somewhat more involved method to get the job done.

"We remove the heatsinks, clean off any thermal compound left on the boards, cleaning the GPU and CPU," says Thickbroom. "Then we apply a BGA-based gel flux around the GPU and pre-heat this under a dark infra-red base BGA re-balling machine, which pre-heats the boards up to a set profile temperature, keeps that heat, then increases it again to a uniform temperature that the solder reflows at. When the reflow occurs, the flux is introduced to it. When the flux gets to the point that it becomes active, it fixes the problem caused by the heat: dry joints and poor connections are resolved."

Et Voila, my black and white 360-shaped doorstops are back in action as fully armed and operational games machines, fit for whatever abuse I would care to put them through in the Digital Foundry lair.

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Comments (272) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Senate #1 2 years ago

    Screw badly made consoles, my wii i had in a bag on the car back seat fell down when i breaked too hard one time. My wii wouldn't read a disc anymore. The next day I dunno why i thought to do it but i punched it and elbowed it in the side. It worked. Nintendo for all their faults make products like fisherprice toys for kids - durable.

  • [STARS]TyranT #2 2 years ago

    What absolutely fucking appaulling consumer advice.

    Buy a new machine every year to avoid any issues?! I fired up my 13 year old Sega Saturn the other day and bar one issue I had a few years back which I sorted on my own still running like it always has from day one. Likewise all the other machines I still have rigged up.

    I've never heard anything so ridiculous in all my life. Talk about certainty of your own hardware, fucks sake.

  • RedPanda #3 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 14:31:59 28-01-2012

  • Bennicus #4 2 years ago

    So there's this replacement xbox360 case http://ww w.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/product... looks like it has much better airflow (cos its about twice the freakin size!) so might improve your chances. Anyone know if there's an equivalent for the PS3?

    Edit: Yeah buying a new machine every year sounds complete bollocks. How about "buy a new machine when the old one breaks down beyond repair", is that too simple & obvious?
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 10:11

  • Adi-C #5 2 years ago

    Thank you, tht's very informative. Though i woluld like to read more about new, 65nm chips in ps3 slim, i've only heard about 45nm cell, didn't know the rsx got smaller too?
    EDIT: Also, one might ask was it worth it to exclude lead from the solders? I mean i know it's that ecology thing but in the end i guess all those repairs cost a lot more than environmental savings from not including lead...
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 10:39

  • ocktober17 #6 2 years ago

    Time to get the lead back in the solder,It was there for a fucking reason.

  • spudsbuckley #7 2 years ago

    I'm not sure why the PS3 is even included in this article. The failure rate for them is tiny. I think it's either about the same or even less than the failure rate of the Wii.

  • Darren #8 2 years ago

    "If you're a serious player, I'd recommend you change or upgrade your Xbox after a year."

    Well that isn't really an option for most people unless you keep the shop receipt and swap it for a newer models days before the year warranty expires. And is it really acceptable to have to do this... are consoles only designed to last a year?!?!? :o

    My launch Xbox 360 lasted 17 months of very heavy use, much longer than any of the later, newer models that I've owned which have been used much less. One didn't even make last an hour! My launch PS3 is still going strong though and is approaching two and a half years old, although to be fair it has been used more as a Blu-ray movie player than a games console.

    Personally I think all consoles should come with a five year warranty to cover hardware failure, meaning a free repair for the majority of its lifespan. In the Xbox 360's case we got three years due to admission by Microsoft that the hardware was flaky (although they denied it for the best part of two years).

    If my current Xbox 360 dies (RRODs) again outside this warranty period, is it acceptable for me to have to pay for repairs when the failure likely would have less to do with wear and tear and more to do with the fact that the console itself was poorly designed? If the Xbox 360 was known to be reliable then a failure outside of three years would be considered bad luck, however, because we know from the internet that the 360 isn't very reliable it kind of stings a bit knowing that at some point you're going to have to pay Microsoft to have it repaired or have to buy a newer console in the hope that that one is more reliable.

  • JusticeMoses #9 2 years ago

    I agree that buying a new console every year is decidedly wasteful, especially as Microsoft give you a three year warranty. However, you can't compare a Sega Saturn to today's consoles, they're world's apart in terms of technology. Like the guy in the article says, every time you get a new generation of console they get more powerful which in turn produces more problems with dealing with the heat they dish out. That's not to say I'm defending Microsoft or Sony for their poor means of trying to dissipate said heat.

  • Bazfrag #10 2 years ago

    Omg! Colchester! I will never moan about a DF article again because they could walk a short distance and punch me.

  • local_celebrity #11 2 years ago

    Thickbroom? Leadbetter? It's like some Martin Amis novel round here.

    Anyway, nice article. Just for the record, I've had my Xbox four years and haven't had a single case of RROD.

  • Darren #12 2 years ago

    @spudsbuckley - A lot of the PS3's hardware issues seem to be related to the BD drive which can stop reading discs. To be fair, any optical drive is prone to wear and tear due to the nature of their design (spinning at high speeds, etc.) and the 360 also suffers from this issue with the DVD drive, as can any electronic product that uses DVD or BD.

    However, the Xbox 360 has another serious issue and that is that the GPU and CPU are prone to failure, resulting in the infamous RROD. I wasn't aware that the PS3 suffered from this particular issue to the same degree. If that's true then PS3 owners have certainly not been making a big song and dance about it. I find it quite puzzling... I mean I know ANY console, no matter how well it is built can fail at any time, but the Xbox 360 has been notorious for failure problems despite Microsoft's best efforts to play them down. I don't recall Sony ever having to issue a statement to refute PS3 hardware issues or state that their machine is now reliable, etc. :?

  • ParanoidZombie #13 2 years ago

    Very interesting and informative read.

  • Metalfish #14 2 years ago

    Guys, guys, they're not saying a new console every year is a good idea, they are saying it is a potential solution to this crazy situation.

    I swear you guys are outraged at everything.

  • local_celebrity #15 2 years ago

    @ocktober17

    You heard it here first. Leadbetter says: "Lead is better"

  • spudsbuckley #16 2 years ago

    I don't recall Sony ever having to issue a statement to refute PS3 hardware issues or state that their machine is now reliable, etc?

    That's because they designed their machine properly the first time around, as did Nintendo. My 360 (second one i'm on) is only used for exclusives now because simply using it makes it break. That's unacceptable and the 'more complex technology' excuse doesn't really wash when it's not happening to the competitions hardware.

  • Arwin #17 2 years ago

    "the installed UK bases of both systems, the fact that the damage is cumulative over time (and Xbox 360 is a year older, remember) and also the fact that 360 has a three-year warranty, while the PS3 is limited only to one year."

    Yes, exactly. If you do the math, the 360's issue is way bigger. I'm willing to bet it's at least 5:1. Also, you should try to do a small article on consumer protection law, I think you'll see that most countries will allow you to force console manufacturers to repair your machine free of cost for at least 2 years. The variation in European countries lies more in when the manufacturer has the burden of proof versus when the consumer has the burden of proof.

    Interesting about the pre-HDMI 360s being relatively more reliable - I have one of those near launch units and it is indeed still working, although I do take care not to use it when it's really hot in or outside. My launch PS3 was using higher fan speeds lately, but I vacuumed it, and now it's as silent as at launch.

    Generally, I think this is mostly 100% the manufacturers fault. Devices like both my amps old and new, laptops and PCs shut themselves off when they get too hot. These consoles should do the same.

  • earthdog #18 2 years ago

    What I love about these issues is that both manufacturers keep banging on about the life span of the technology as a generation (i.e. both looking for us to be using these consoles for a few more years).

    How am I supposed to do that when the individual units only last ~2yrs?

    Is it the case I am expected to buy 2 or 3 across this generation span? Is there a business case for a rental model under these circumstances?

  • LilithsCurves #19 2 years ago

    About PS3, the first models had about 200 watt (or above) of energy consumption, while the new PS3 slim model has around 80 watt. I hope these figures are accurate enough. A bigger casing can improve the heat dissipation a little bit but what really is needed is an active cooling device like a fan that has good flow to the outside. The 80 watt should substantially improve any heat problem while keeping the fan rather quiet. Moving from around 200 watt to around 80 watt!

    For Xbox 360 i think it is about from also around 200 watt or above to around 115 watt with the new Jasper motherboard version. The problem could be that MS have sold older Zephyr (200+ watt) and Falcon (about 155 watt) motherboards in Xbox 360s which were sold up until mid 2009. Now this problem could possibly only affect buyers in america (outcry was from "geeks" there who know what the difference is between the motherboards and what they had to look for). Now this problem may only be in america and newer xbox 360 with jasper should be a lot better, just judging from the energy consumption.

  • actionfitz #20 2 years ago

    shocking that the bastards can get away with this.
    last time I buy a new console at launch. Hope it hits their bottom line too - everyone aware of the shoddy workmanship involved in the previous generation holding off buying the next wave of expensive doorstops.
    :/

  • Mortified_Penguin #21 2 years ago

    "remained on the 90nm fabrication process right up until the release of the new PS3 Slim"

    I thought that the last revisions of the original PS3 had 65nm RSX aswell (with 65nm Cell). Though it was never confirmed by Sony, people who tested them found they consumed less power (around 20 watts less under load). I bought my PS3 in December 08, and it is very quiet - it certainly doesn't seem to be struggling to deal with heat and I really have no worries over reliability.

    It's interesting that the article mentions problems with lead-free solder, as nVidia's mobile 8000 series GPUs have had a lot of problems with failing from from heat problems, and that was said to be partly from the lead-free solder. Which is ironic considering that the 360's GPU is an ATi part (which haven't had these problems with their PC/laptop parts).

    EDIT: Apparently Sony confirmed 65nm RSX in Japan in the 80gb PS3s. http://fo rum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php...
    Edited by 2 at 29/08/09 @ 12:11

  • amiganorm #22 2 years ago

    If your a serious 360/ps3 player have a spare console to hand when your main console dies.

  • Retroid #23 2 years ago

    I've had two RRoDs (launch model 360s, one of them a refurb) and one YLOD (60gb PAL PS3), and a launch Wii with GPU heat damage.

    :/

    I have to love how some people on here are saying they know the relative failure rates better than a store which has been dealing in repairing the machines for years, too.

    /Facehand

    The 60/40 average split mentioned in the article surprised me as I didn't think it would be that high, but saying that I know several people who've had 60gb PS3s die on them as I have, and we're faced with the prospect of not getting a PS2-BC model of PS3 back in exchange for our cash which is frankly unacceptable as that's the very reason I bought the model of PS3 I did. Buying a slim isn't an option for me for that reason.

    I'm faced with the possibility of losing not only my saved games but my PS2 & PS1 memory card images aswell, over a decade of saved games lost if I just get a replacement :(

    For that reason it looks like I'll have to reach into my pocket to get my PS3 fixed, whereas my 360s (with a bigger failure problem, obviously) at least got fixed for absolutely nothing at all.

  • Retroid #24 2 years ago

    Oh, and I'll add my voice to saying that even *thinking* about replacing your consoles once a year is one of the most stupid concepts I've ever heard.

  • Xerx3s #25 2 years ago

    "with the very real danger that our games machines may go "pop" after the manufacturer's warranty expires. "

    6 months after the 3 year warranty expired mine went tits up, they replaced it within a week for free. No questions asked. Even better, when asking what would happen the next time, they replied that they had made a mark in my CS record and that they would fix that for free as well. MS makes shite machines but the customer support is second to none imo.

    "I'm not sure why the PS3 is even included in this article. The failure rate for them is tiny. I think it's either about the same or even less than the failure rate of the Wii."

    Did you even bother to read the article? Or the forum for that matter?
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:18

  • DarthInsinuate #26 2 years ago

    Darren Thickbroom.
    Chuck Wrenchfix.
    Frank Repairbash.
    Dave Soldermend.
    Bob Johnson.

  • skillian #27 2 years ago

    Mentioning the Sale of Goods Act in the final paragraph was important. The whole point of the act is to protect consumers from failed and unfit products, and if I had to pay to replace my PS3 after one year of reasonable use, you better believe I'd be invoking that in my phone calls to Sony or in court if necessary.

    The law protects you from situations like this, and while it's obviously not acceptable to have to take a huge company to like Sony or Microsoft to court to make sure they play fair, they'll never learn if people don't call them on it.

    @donnie: if I put my PC in a case the size of a PS3/360 with a tiny little exhaust fan you better believe it would be overheating too.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:28

  • Roarster #28 2 years ago

    One thing that might skew the repair rates for the PS3 and 360 is the relative prices of the console. I don't own a 360 but I reckon I'd be more likely to bin a broken 360 and spend £130 to replace it while I'd be looking to repair a £300 PS3.

  • spudsbuckley #29 2 years ago

    but why is it the next gen consoles that only have reliabilty issues

    It's not next-gen consoles that have reliability isssues, it's the 360 that has reliability issues. All the other current consoles fall within reasonable failure-rate figures based on previous generations.

  • Xerx3s #30 2 years ago

    The next gen will either have near identical hardware OR they will push it out the door with chips smaller than 45nm. The only alternative is going to be to make them bigger which clearly isn't going to happen.

  • des #31 2 years ago

    Not surprised that PS3 has the same issues as 360,its ironic that lead free solders were introduced because of pollution,but now not using them actually contributes to pollution.
    Cooling design is better on PS3,so the issue is delayed,but at the end every unit is going to suffer the same fate sooner or later...scary
    Unless better(more expensive) solders and cooling solutions are used...

    Why they can get away from this?Because there is an army of rabid fanboys on both sides that will defend anything from their beloved companies,sad but true.

  • LilithsCurves #32 2 years ago

    @donnie080208, i guess a pc is not that more reliable actually, but you don't use your pc like a console. a pc will clock down it's cpu when you not play, a pc's optical drive is not as much in use then it is with the average console user who does not make an hd install. and in the end pc components though in a bigger casing with several fans also has technical issues. but if your optical drive od hd dies, you usually don't let it be repaired but just buy a new dvd drive for 15 pounds or a new hd for 40.

  • Rodchenko #33 2 years ago

    The 60/40 average split mentioned in the article surprised me as I didn't think it would be that high

    It's one tech store in Colchester, next day it's the official number on "teh internet". The title of this article suggests, btw, that the ratio is more like 50/50.

  • Bazfrag #34 2 years ago

    "agreed about the replacment every year,but why is it the next gen consoles that only have reliabilty issues. when the average pc will last for 5 years or more without even a drive reading failure?"

    My rig is getting to two years old. Two blown psu's, 1 ram failure, and a melted 8800gtx later i have to disagree. As far as consoles go, only Dreamcast and 360 have died on me.

    Edit: is it fair or accurate to mention ps3 and 360 failure rates together. Only a tiny bit of digging suggests one has a much higher rate, higher than pretty much any electronic device ever.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:37

  • Moz #35 2 years ago

    A little missleading on the PS3/360 comparison - of course an independent repairer is going to see more PS3's then 360s as most 360s get reapired by the 3 year warrenty.

    If PS3 failures really were similar to 360 then there would be more people complaining about it.

    All I know is that i've had 4 360 failures and no PS3 failures and they are both in an identicle enviroment. So if it is a dust issue then the 360 clogs up more easily then the PS3

  • skillian #36 2 years ago

    @Bazfrag

    He said average, and two blown PSUs (what brand are you buying?!) and a melted GFX card in two years is a long way from average.

    Many graphics card manufacturers offer a lifetime warranty, so I'd suggest you go with one of them next time (e.g. XFX, PNY, EVGA etc.).
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:37

  • womble #37 2 years ago

    Good article.

    While 360 failures are well known, and elaborated or even lied about by PS3 fantards all over the net -- you can hardly read a 360 article without some fanboy bringing up RROD or made-up statistics -- the PS3's problems have been more of a dirty little secret.

    Unless you do a search for PS3 help online, in which case you'll find a hell of a lot of dead PS3s out there. And all sorts of supposed fixes.

    Sony need to supply a three year warranty. The out-of-warranty repair costs for a PS3 are truly ridiculous.


  • fizzyfish #38 2 years ago

    As JusticeMoses said, only the past couple of generations have had to be designed to cope with excessive heat, so, from a design standpoint, there's not much to be gained from comparing them with older machines. However, TyranT's point still holds: consoles, like any goods, really ought to continue to meet our consumer expectations. Irrespective of how the technology in them changes, the need for a machine which plays games reliably, for the full length of its commercial life, without the need for (hassleful, if not costly) ongoing maintenance costs, hasn't changed.

    One other observation: it seems to me that the increasing amount of moving parts in consoles aren't helping.

    Fans produce swift airflow, leading to dust build-up and ever-diminishing ability to dissipate heat. Maybe the recent success of the comparatively low-powered Wii and upcoming focus on motion controls instead of more powerful hardware will see an improvement in power efficiency in the near-term. However, it's probably too much to hope that future consoles (excepting handhelds) will ever get away with passive cooling again.

    Also, (mechanical) disc drives fail way more than (static) cartridge slots ever did or could. Whatever your opinion on digital distribution, if future consoles do away with disc drives, that's one less thing to fail, too.

  • firm3d #39 2 years ago

    Of all my computers and consoles I've only ever had one laptop fail. Really comes down to treatment; I've always kept the room cool, the devices dust-free and I don't smoke.

    Having said that, I think I'm the only 360 owner in my circle of friends who never had a RROD, yet I only know one PS3 owner who got a dud.

    And yes, clearly buying a new console every year is nonsense.


    EDIT - For context, I've had a ZX Spectrum, Atari ST, 6 Macs, SNES, N64, GameCube, PS1, PS2, PS3, Wii and Xbox 360. Not including portable systems.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:41

  • MaTTy_P #40 2 years ago

    Or...if you work in IT like I do...get some Air Duster, rip the xbox apart every so often and give it a damn good clean. Replace the fans for some nice quiet ones. Problem solved.

    On the other hand, Heatsink slips off the CPU and then that goes boom...fuck it, buy a new one.

  • dominalien #41 2 years ago

    I'll just say that I believe that dust build-up is definitely a killer, for any machine.

    Dust can and will accumulate in the ducts and fans of a cooling system and will severely impact airflow and, as a result, cooling efficiency. I'm glad the article mentions cigarette smoke, as that seems to accelerate the process significantly.

    At one point my (noisy even before that) laptop started to run the fan at full speed all the time. After I took it apart, I found a layer of compressed dust over the radiator blades about 3 mm thick. I was able to take it out as one full element, so compacted it was.

    My projector, which is hanging right under the ceiling, started overheating one day. I found that the vents, located at the top (or actually bottom, but it's hanging upside down), were practically completely clogged with dust. After vacuuming them, the projector is quieter and doesn't turn off anymore.

    I guess the moral of the story is that one really should take good care of their equipment. Do not put it in enclosed spaces to avoid heat build-up (remember, if the air the machine sucks in is already warm in the first place, it won't be able to absorb as much heat from the radiators) and clean the vents once in a while. Of course, that doesn't excuse the hardware manufacturers from foreseeing that there will be dust build-up, but in this age of power hungry chips it's ever more difficult and costly to design and implement cooling systems which will be so effective as to be sufficient even with massive amounts of dust on them.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:37

  • womble #42 2 years ago

    Moz says:

    "A little missleading on the PS3/360 comparison - of course an independent repairer is going to see more PS3's then 360s as most 360s get reapired by the 3 year warrenty."

    Not really. 360s are generally older. Those that aren't being repaired under warranty, are most likely modded consoles. RROD machines will be repaired under the three year warranty.

    The PS3, being younger, will have a high percentage being repaired under the 12 months warranty.

    The fact that this shop sees a 60/40 split says volumes about the real problems out there, for BOTH consoles.

    "If PS3 failures really were similar to 360 then there would be more people complaining about it. "

    Two points:

    1) PS3 fans are much more vocal on this issue. RROD is used by them as a rallying call, brought up in every single fanboy battle. Yet they are very quiet on PS3 failures.

    2) Google "PS3 failure". You'll find a LOT of people complaining about their PS3 dying for one reason or another. And many of them are out of warranty, with the owners finding that they're up for some very high servicing costs.


  • Optimaximal #43 2 years ago

    'It also means that the next generation of consoles - which will inevitably see a return to larger, more power-hungry silicon - are going to require some ingenious design solutions to prevent the same thing happening all over again.'

    No, it won't. As with the outrage over Call of Duty's pricing, the sheeple will just proceed to purchase the next big thing regardless of the damage on their wallet caused by power consumption and/or repairs.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:40

  • Bazfrag #44 2 years ago

    @skillian

    I would suggest the "average pc" isnt under the same stress as the consoles. My psu were BFG 1000w beasts, built for sli. I somehow managed to blow both with only a single gpu lol.

    Agree with those manufacturer's being reliable. I would go with whoever has the best cooling solution, and avoid Sapphire cards like Mexican swine flu!
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 11:49

  • Diomedes #45 2 years ago

    This digital foundry thing is turning a bad joke to let the fanboy instincts of Leadbetter out.

  • Kenshin001 #46 2 years ago

    "A little missleading on the PS3/360 comparison - of course an independent repairer is going to see more PS3's then 360s as most 360s get reapired by the 3 year warrenty."

    In the article it says, "working on average, they'll get 20 dead consoles to fix each day - 12 of them will be Xbox 360s, eight of them will be PlayStation 3s." Seems to indicate they are getting more 360s still. That's a hell of a lot of dead consoles though.

  • skillian #47 2 years ago

    I think the amount of 360s they are getting also shows you can't forgive the problem by pointing to the 3 year warranty.

  • spudsbuckley #48 2 years ago

    1) PS3 fans are much more vocal on this issue. RROD is used by them as a rallying call, brought up in every single fanboy battle. Yet they are very quiet on PS3 failures.

    Why wouldn't 360 fans just do the same thing except reversed?

  • Bazfrag #49 2 years ago

    Edit: Nvm.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 12:32

  • Cappy #50 2 years ago

    The 60/40 split is due to more 360 failures being taken care of by Microsoft. 3 Year warranty remember?

  • Retroid #51 2 years ago

    Rodchenko: "The title of this article suggests, btw, that the ratio is more like 50/50."

    No it doesn't. It says that both platforms can fail for the same reasons. You know: like the words used in the title say. Not the same *ratio*, but the same *reasons*.

    It's fairly damned obvious that the 360 had a bigger problem, and also damned obvious that one small shop does not a representative sample make - I was merely commenting that the number mentioned in the article surprised me because I didn't think it would be that high for PS3 - in that shop.

  • ziggymon_g #52 2 years ago

    From working at several gaming retail shops and had my hand at repairing machines in the past. I swear every time someone says they have taken so much care and never done anything with the console before 'it just broke', 9 out of 10 times they are lying. Ive seen jam sandwiches shoved into a 360 before now.

  • dagas #53 2 years ago

    @ocktober17: Lead was in petrol too for a reason yet they managed without it and today the lack of lead is no problem. It will be the same in the electronics world. It's a transition period because they have relied on lead for so long. Now that they are forced to be without it, it's just a matter of time before something just as good is developed. It's too bad it has too be like this, but it's their fault for relying on a toxin for so long.

  • Retroid #54 2 years ago

    Kenshin001: "In the article it says, "working on average, they'll get 20 dead consoles to fix each day - 12 of them will be Xbox 360s, eight of them will be PlayStation 3s." Seems to indicate they are getting more 360s still. That's a hell of a lot of dead consoles though."

    Well, quite. I don't think I know a single person with a 360 who hasn't had to have it repaired.

  • womble #55 2 years ago

    "Why wouldn't 360 fans just do the same thing except reversed?"

    Some do. But overall, PS3 fanboys really take the cake. They take the console wars too seriously, as if it's a personal thing, and the level of spite generated by them is incredible. See any DF thread for innumerable examples.

    ( Oh, and I have a PS3, and think it's a great machine. I recommend people get a Slim. I just wish the more angry members of the fanbase would shut up and accept that other people have valid views. They do the PS3 platform or other PS3 users no favors with their zealotry.)


  • Alkeno #56 2 years ago

    My 360 died yesterday. It was manufactured in august-2007 (bought in december 2007), a Zephyr HDMI... I had just started to play Shadow Complex and it froze. Rebooting was no use, the mighty RROD appeared.

    Microsoft... the builld quality of these consoles is rubbish! I played in short brusts (1 or 2 hours most) and I'd say I played 4-6 hours a week on average, so I'm not a heavy user at all. No one ever smoked in the room, temperatures inside never got high, I kept the console dust free and most of the times I took it off the shelf to the ground when I played so it had a lot of clean air to cool! Still, it broke. I mean, there is little more a player can do, we were not expected to put the console inside the fridge, were we? Let's see how long it takes to have it fixed, but I'm counting on a month by now :-(

    The breakdown comes in a very bad moment, the PS3 has new pricing and a smaller form factor. I never cared for BluRay, but now I have a free month and maybe a couple of PS3 exclusives I'd enjoy trying. Fuck, this month may end up being quite expensive!!!

    Edit: The console is not modded and it is covered by waranty, but it will take a month to be returned regardless. Ever heard of the Canary Islands? Warm, sunny, nice women, wonderful beaches (come visit us! again!)... my console has to go the following process:
    1) The UPS guys must fetch me an empty box suitable for the transport.
    2) I have to put my console in that box and allow them to take it to... Germany.
    3) It has to reach Germany, on the slowest and cheapest possible way. Rowing canoe, I guess.
    4) It has to be repaired (I hope that they swap it for a Jasper unit, but it's not going to happen...).
    5) UPS has to row it back to me. It takes a month, some of my friends have gone through the wait (many times some of them).

    I tell you, it will get pretty hard for me not to buy a PS3 lite these weeks. My girlfriend is already shouting at me, she is smelling my thoughts...

    And by the way, when did EG get filled with fanboys? The article is pretty clear (even to non-native English readers as me). If you think PS3 is being attacked, that EG/DF has a bias or that the author even hinted that PS3 failure rates were similar to 360... just take it easy, breathe slowly and read the article again. It is well written, pretty objective and self-aware of the limited scope of the opinions given.
    Edited by 1 at 31/08/09 @ 17:11

  • Psychotext #57 2 years ago

    Good little write up. Not really much there that wasn't out in the public domain if you were willing to read up on it, but great to see it all in one place and explained so that most people could understand it.

  • cianchristopher #58 2 years ago

    I got a "3-beeps" death on my launch 60gb PS3 back in June. Was in the middle of a game of COD:WAW when it just turned itself off (like a pc crash) and never came back on. When I tried to turn it on it beeped 3 times and shut down again.

    Had to buy another one in July, got a 160gb version with 4 free downloadable games. Not too bad, but I was surprised I had to at all cos I thought Sony were very reliable. That said, I had my PS3 going non-stop from March 07 til June 09, it was a goddamn workhorse for games, dvds and blu-rays.

    Strangely, I bought a 360 elite in Sep 07 and its still going strong!

    World going one way, people another!!! (Poot)

  • womble #59 2 years ago

    Sigmagoat writes:

    "I will be honourably retiring my old and fat PS3 in a few days for her newer sexier slimmer cheaper to run model. "

    Not sure I understand this. How will it be cheaper to run if you have to buy a new Slim, to replace a paid-for, working PS3? It would take many years to "recoup" the added cost, no?

  • Miths #60 2 years ago

    I never actually expect hardware to last more than around 18 months before something needs to be replaced - mainly because I've never actually owned a PC that didn't have at least one vital component (hard disk, CPU, PSU, graphics card, mainboard) fail within said 18 months, and often much earlier.
    Barring a few PCs I had back in the 90s perhaps, it has never been a case of using the cheapest components I could find (quite the opposite actually with my last several systems), and I've never overclocked CPU/GPU or done other things that could case unusually high levels of component stress.

    But maybe I'm just cursed with bad luck when it comes to computers? Or electrical devices in general - I recently had a one year old €150 desk lamp die on me. The light bulb blew, and so apparently did the lamp :).

    So far my PS3 is defying the odds though, being 20 months old and in use for several hours (video/games/music) pretty much every single day. I'm expecting it to roll over and die any day now though.
    My 360 is two years old and still going strong, but since it's only been turned on for a combined total of perhaps 20-30 hours the last year, that doesn't really count.

  • Bazfrag #61 2 years ago

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between PS3 and Xbox 360I dont believe it."

    The shop claims out of twenty repairs, 12 xboxs to 8 ps3's. So based on that, whats unbelievable? Its not like he unequivocally states thats the ratio for worldwide failures.

  • womble #62 2 years ago

    "F--k, this month may end up being quite expensive!!!"

    Since it's RROD, and you bought it Dec 07, you are entitled to the three years warranty. If you send it off to repair, you should have it back in about a week, no repair cost.

    The only way you wouldn't be entitled to the warranty is if you had modded the machine, thereby voiding the terms of use.

    Give MS a call, they'll fix you up.

  • Widge #63 2 years ago

    @bennicus

    I read a review of that Lian Li case and it sounded HORRIFIC, increasing heat, size and noise bizzarely! Which I found shocking as Lian Li are pretty damn good, got one of their PC cases.

  • Kenshin001 #64 2 years ago

    @Retroid, I know one. My PS3 died recently though so the RRoD has lost all its comedy value. : (

    Reason I brought it up was:

    "working on average, they'll get 20 dead consoles to fix each day - 12 of them will be Xbox 360s, eight of them will be PlayStation 3s."

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between PS3 and Xbox 360 they experience is remarkable..."

    This has got me confused. The first sentence seems to contradict the second.

  • Retroid #65 2 years ago

    @Kenshin001: hope you didn't lose any saves! That's the thing which is bothering me most about my YLOD. :(

    edit: needed more coffee
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 13:07

  • GamesConnoisseur #66 2 years ago

    Likes others I didnt believe it would be 60/40 or heck even 50/50 of RRODs/YLODs, that would be just defensive Xbots trying to bounce people off the RRODs issues, Darren's post earlier in this thread,and others, seemed to indicate that people still believes that any faults with PS3 is more to do with BD read errors etc rather than the 'so called' YLODs.

    However THIS week, as I posted elsewhere in EG, my PS3 owning mate at work, PSN DocBarnett, got YLOD, and he confirmed two other of his PS3 mates he knows also had YLOD the past few months.

    When we discussed over our circle of friends and we got 5 RRODs and 3 YLODs. I also owns PS3 and no problems to date and had RROD once. so 60/40 seem more probable than 5:1 based on my contacts.

    I think people needs to reflect on the article which focus on the issue of crammings a lot of power into a tiny space and heat having long term cumulative effect, warping board and so on. That makes a heck of a sense and I m certain both MS and Sony would not want any attentions to shine on their console, and I still see non believers of YLODs but a matter of time before we see more of this.

    Anyway, for me personally I m gonna make sure I take care of all my consoles and keep enough ventilations!
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 12:48

  • lolife.se #67 2 years ago

    If it's a warping motherboard that is the cause, why should leaded solder be any help? If anything, shouldn't it just break even worse when the time comes (ie. not the solder that brakes, but something else)? :-)

    edit: Also, I know that at least the 360 coolers are mounted with very stiff and inflexible mounting. You never see that with, say, PC coolers. I can totally see why the motherboard would warp, when the heat makes stuff expand in there.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 12:56

  • Kenshin001 #68 2 years ago

    @Retroid. Yeah, everything. 90 odd hours of Demon's Souls. I refused to pay for repairs as some sort of feeble protest but it was a bit pointless since I'll likely pick up a Slim anyway.

  • EuroStalker #69 2 years ago

    "If you're a serious player, I'd recommend you change or upgrade your Xbox after a year."

    So that's how Microsoft sold all those consoles. Make 'em crap and sell them another one again.

    How seriously can you take someone who makes the above comments. Absolutely daft comments to make and not to mention incorrect:

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between PS3 and Xbox 360."

    Well, Eurogamer bias will say this but consumer forums and experience say otherwise. I owned an Xbox 360 - broke twice in 18 months. Now own a PS3 for 1 year, working fine.

    Eurogamer's own forums contradict their 'articles'. Do a count of how many threads there are about the Xbox 360 and PS3 failure rates and you'll find the truth.

  • cjb110 #70 2 years ago

    I guess I'm atypical...
    I've had one xbox go (RROD) a few months ago, but it was bought a week after release...so that's pretty good going for quite a heavily used machine.
    But I've had two (the replacement had the exact same issue) PS3's go (wont read discs or certain types of discs) and that's was about a year old. Given that my PS3 is only really used as a bluray (I think it sucks as a game console), I think the PS3 is pretty poor, mainly because I'm comparing to my other dvd players, none of which have died!

    PC (custom built from scan's 3xs)l hasn't faired well (onto my 3rd mobo, and 5/6th sticks of ram), but its on 24/7 and used about 4 times as much as the xbox, and ten times as much as the ps3.


  • GreyBeard #71 2 years ago

    One repair shop's story is still anecdotal evidence, so I wouldn't give it too much credence.

    Especially the stuff about "early" 360's being more robust seems dubious to me, as how would this explain this headline from EG's "serious" sister-site in June 2007:

    [link url=http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article s/repair-specialists-refuse-to-take-360s
    ]http://ww w.gamesindustry.biz/articles/re...[/link]

  • lavalant #72 2 years ago

    I'm still on my 2005 launch 360 console, but I keep it dust free and I have a uniqe table as the bottome shelf it sits on is kind of like a grill, so my 360 is kind of hovering in mid air and has free air on all sides, I'm pretty sure this is why it's lasted so long.

    I think the best consumer advice is don't buy a console on launch, you'll get ripped off, there's usually no decent games out, and you'll likely be a test subject for any hardware problems.

  • miiiguel #73 2 years ago

    ""I will be honourably retiring my old and fat PS3 in a few days for her newer sexier slimmer cheaper to run model. "

    Not sure I understand this. How will it be cheaper to run if you have to buy a new Slim, to replace a paid-for, working PS3? It would take many years to "recoup" the added cost, no? "

    eheh, it's an advertisment line, ppl are so into this 24/7 selling that stuff just comes naturally.

  • GamesConnoisseur #74 2 years ago

    Everything could be said to be ancedotal, especially the posts in the comments/forums, and the thrust of the article is that it was a very DIFFICULT thing to get accurate information and they would sample from ONE repair shop. We could go further and conduct a nation wide survey with all the repair shops?

    EG or DF not going to do that as wheres the money or the resources?!

    I now personally believe that there are more PS3 in for repairs than people realised but no not going to say its would be on par to X360 as that is too ridiculous, but after this week of finding out three people i know had same problem... YLOD. I m pretty more open to the idea.

    Time will tell, give it a good few months, and we ll see if there is going to be more PS3 owners come forward for YLODs as well as the regularity of the X360 owners declaring RRODs.

    Physics really in the end... that much power generate so much heat, and all heats causes effect on the surrounding areas, and heats get magnified or disspated by other factors, dusts, ventilations and the OMG smoke from the SMOKERS!

    SMOKE not only dangerous for you and causes cancer... also causes RRODs and YLODS!!

    You been told here!!

  • Skurmedel #75 2 years ago

    ""I will be honourably retiring my old and fat PS3 in a few days for her newer sexier slimmer cheaper to run model. "

    Not sure I understand this. How will it be cheaper to run if you have to buy a new Slim, to replace a paid-for, working PS3? It would take many years to "recoup" the added cost, no? "

    Maybe they charge him much for electricity where he lives ;)

    Anyway I think we can all solve these problems by having our consoles in the fridge when we use them.
    Edited by 2 at 29/08/09 @ 13:47

  • Hotcooler #76 2 years ago

    I set up watercooling for GPU just after I bought it back in 2007 and have not had any problems since. It may not look nice, but it never raises the fan speed and runs pretty cool and silent. [link url=http: //images.people.overclockers.ru/133398.jpg
    ]http://im ages.people.overclockers.ru/133...[/link]

    But my PS3 on the other hand.. does not raise fan speed too.. but the air temp that's going out is frightening.. It even halted couple times cause of overheating. Dunno why it wont raise RPM

  • a.j2020 #77 2 years ago

    I'm currently on my 3rd ps3...and i can tell you and confirm that the reason people don't know about YLODs more is because of the ps3 owners being A LOT more defensive of their consoles...when my 2nd refurbed console broke after 4 hours...the forum i regularly post on...turned against me...calling me an XBOT...anyway...im one of the lucky ones because i live in ireland where sony still have stock of brand new 60Gbs which they never sold...so..they sent me one of those after my refurbed one broke...thats going strong...i also have to add that my first unit(launch 60gb) was not used that much...about an hour or 2 max. a day.

    But it did live in quite a dusty environment...so...that could be a reason but doesnt explain the refurb failing after 4 hours. However, i did discover that ps3 YLOD failure rate among 60gbs is incredibly high possible bordering in 360 rates...and the sony customer service told me that a launch 60 Gbs max life is 3 years which shocked me!!

  • makeamazing #78 2 years ago

    I also agree with comments stated here- poor journalism... one repair shop suddenly equates to Sony's console is as bad as MS when it comes to hardware failures. The main problem is they way the article is written, there is no comments by the author as to suggest or quantify the comments of the repair guy... its kinda like lets just ask him some stuff and report it.

  • Lemming81 #79 2 years ago

    I have friends with 360s and ps3s. the friends with ps3s have never had problems. The 360 friends have had to have new consoles twice each.

    This 'a mate down a local shop' article is hardly some insider truth. There is no conspiracy, Sony just build the better machine. End of.

  • jonsaan #80 2 years ago

    It should also be pointed out that if you do have to cough up for an out of warranty repair with Sony then they only cover the repair for 3 months. Shit sandwhich.

    Having had 5 360s fail (4 of them refurbs) and one PS3 outside of warranty I think they are all as bad as each other frankly. I also wish you had asked this chap why refurbs seem to last about 3 months before they go again, as mine pretty much all did when fixed by MS.

    Oh and my PS3 was nothing to do with heat. The Blue Ray died. Which seems to happen to a lot of them from what I have seen on the web. Sony told me it was expected wear and tear for a 18 month old machine. I explained that I still have a working Atari VCS in the loft but they stood by their claim. Twunts.
    Edited by 2 at 29/08/09 @ 14:17

  • aidey6 #81 2 years ago

    My mate is on either his 3rd or 4th 360 and still on his launch 60Gb PS3, but one of my other mates 60gb PS3 has just died...

    My 60Gb PS3 is still doing ok, I make sure to vac the vents with my vacuum cleaner though as it can get clogged up

  • CptSupermarket #82 2 years ago

    Yay my hometown gets a mention on Eurogamer! The lads down at Colchester Computers are alright! Never knew they did console repair tho! Good place to go for pc upgrades if you are in this area. The comment about one console per year takes the piss tho!

  • davearnie #83 2 years ago

    The reason we dont hear about PS3 failing as much as Xbox 360 is obvious......

    Not that many people own a PS3 IMO.

  • Ged42 #84 2 years ago

    I'm currently waiting for Sony to send me a replacement PS3 (come on wednesday, hurry up)

    My original 60GB PS3 died YLOD in April and I had to fork out £140 quid for Sony to replace it. The refurb they sent me YLOD two weeks ago during a COD:WAW match. Sony sent me a replacement for free this time even though the refurb was just out of warranty (which was nice.) But that one YLOD within 10 mins of me powering it up, so back on the phone again to Sony to get another replacement.

    I think the next line of consoles are going to need some new way of cooling the CPUs or just really big powerful fans.

  • davisorle #85 2 years ago

    Im sorry but I paid way too much in the past to Sony for TVs and Sound Systems for needing service a couple of weeks only after the waranty was over and forcing me to pay them more than half the product itself was a bitch. There is no worst bloodsucking company than Sony when it comes to repairing your shit... Portable devices i never bothered to repair from Sony. Only an accient cassette player survived and that is gone cause it was of no use no more... As you can imagine ofc. Whoever has had Sony TVs from here etc would know how costly it is to get your Sony electronics fixxed.

    As of their consoles Ive said multiple times. Dont feel like argueing with fanboys on their PS3s and 360s right now. im sick...

  • makeamazing #86 2 years ago

    It's heartwarming to see so much effort put into killing the "myth" that the PS3 is better built, particularly the timing!

    LOL so when did asking one repair shop consist of killing the myth. This is worse than those woman creams on telly... "89% said this product was great"... "only 39 people asked".

  • noycemwa #87 2 years ago

    What a $hit piece of advice, buy a new machine every year. What a complete idiot!
    I appreciate products can have issues, but to compare the problem with the 360 to that of the PS3 is ridiculous! I own both and play both everyday, I still have the same PS3 I got on day of release yet I'm on my 5th XBox360. Every single one of my friends who owns an XBox has had at least one failure, and some several like myself.

  • GreyBeard #88 2 years ago

    @Seesthroughall

    +1

    Especially the point on the timing of this article.

    Its getting increasingly difficult to deny that there is a distinct bias in favour of the 360 on this site, and certainly in the Digital Foundry pieces.

  • hiddenranbir #89 2 years ago

    If you're a serious player, I'd recommend you change or upgrade your Xbox after a year."

    I found that a funny recommendation.

  • secombe #90 2 years ago

    However, you can't compare a Sega Saturn to today's consoles, they're world's apart in terms of technology.

    That's the wider issue though, isn't it? The 'arms race' is the root cause of these problems, getting ever more powerful consoles out the door before technically they are fit for long term consumer usage. At the time these consoles were made, they were the pinnacle of console gaming, so comparing the technology now is a moot point in my opinion.

    I'm not sure about anyone else, but when I buy a console I expect to be able to use it for at least 10 years, hopefully a lot longer than that.

    My Atari 7800 still works every time, I've used it fairly consistently for 22 years now, same goes for my Master System, Mega Drive and Dreamcast. The only hole in my collection is the PS1 and PS2, other than those I can trace my console history back with working examples to my 5th birthday.

  • JHuxley #91 2 years ago

    "specialises in extended warranty work with the likes of Argos and catalogue companies"

    I got an extended warranty on my PS3 from Argos, so I'm glad to know it'll be sent to experts if it ever did go bang. And before you laugh at me for buying an extended warranty, it was a special offer, something like £20 for 3 or 4 years. Hard to refuse.

    I think consoles are becoming increasingly like buying new TV's - I won't buy one unless it has a decent warranty. I know MS can't exactly boast about their 'warranty' because it's limited in scope and born out of a situation entirely of their own making, but this kind of thing is seriously going to effect my buying decisions in future.

  • patchbox360 #92 2 years ago

    Eurogamer is becoming laughable .... hmmm... becoming

  • HardCoreGamer999 #93 2 years ago

    In the case of a relatively small-scale operation like Colchester Computers, working on average, they'll get 20 dead consoles to fix each day - 12 of them will be Xbox 360s, eight of them will be PlayStation 3s.

    didn't know that ps3 had that same problem?

  • MikeJones #94 2 years ago

    Pretty funny to see some people actually believe the failure rate of PS3 is even close to the X360.

  • KrissAkabusi #95 2 years ago

    P'ss poor article.

  • Dizzy #96 2 years ago

    My iPhone also died after just two years. Electronics are just not made to last on purpose. Companies like us to buy new stuff every 2-3 years.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 16:08

  • skillian #97 2 years ago

    @Dizzy

    That's simply not true. Many electronics companies pride themselves on their durability and reliability. Apple or Microsoft may not be one of those companies, but that just means they're doing it wrong.

  • Miths #98 2 years ago

    How is this for fucked up coincidence. Reading this article today and writing in my previous comment earlier that my PS3 is beating my usual 18 months hardware breakdown limit by now being 20 months old and still working fine.
    Well, it just decided to shut itself down while I was watching a video file - although not entirely as the red light kept blinking. I turned it off on the back and tried to restart it again only to get a black screen for a few seconds after which it beeped a few times, briefly flashed yellow and then switched to the blinking red LED light again.
    I assume I've just been YLOD'ed?

    Well, at least I guess I should consider myself happy that it happened now with the release of the slim rather than a month or two ago.

  • Retroid #99 2 years ago

    "Laughable"?

    What's laughable is that some people simply won't have a (factual) word said against their chosen appliance and shout BIAS then though no-one has said the problems are as widespread or as bad, or even that the numbers mentioned in the article are in any way representative of what's happening out there.

    ZANUSSI 4 LIFE, HOTPOINT GTFO

  • DuX1112 #100 2 years ago

    I don't really understand you guys. A whole BUNCH of people quarelling about which console breaks less often: the PS3 or the XboX 360...?

    Although I'm more of a Sony kind of guy (I do buy SE phones, and respect Sony's technological legacy - it IS great and worthy), are 'clans' so important? Why do you rush defending Sony or Microsoft? Face it: consoles are finalized products, and they can't be upgraded! Get stuck with the one you have, or buy a new one when the time comes. That's it.

    It's like you're all forgetting what this issue is really about: products of questionable quality (and with it, questionable time span). :|

    Buy a PC (for your own sake). :) Uprgrade it, downgrade it, change it, repair it: any time you want. Plus you get access to whole genres of games, like top-notch quality RTS (the Total War series, the C&C series etc.), plus a whole bunch of other stuff...

    I had a PS1, and a couple of other consoles in the past, but as soon as I sat down with Red Alert 2 (at the time), i sold every single console I ever had.

    And I feel I don't have to remind you guys that for the price of one PS3 or XboX 360, one can even get a decent PC. Plus, I fail to understand people buying 2 or 3 consoles of the same type... That's like, one Alienware Gaming PC. Come to your senses...
    Edited by 3 at 29/08/09 @ 17:35

  • GreyBeard #101 2 years ago

    @Retroid

    Look at the title of the piece; it places equal weighting on both platforms failure rate where as one is known beyond any reasonable doubt to have an abnormally high defect frequency, as evidenced by not one but two separate warranty extensions for the specific problem.

    At the very least that is soft-pedalling the magnitude of the issue with the 360, at worst its tarring the PS3 with the same brush.

    And again, where is the Wii in all this? Is Nintendo's standard 1year guarantee also "woefully inadequate"?

  • des #102 2 years ago

    Heat doesn't kill it,heat cycle does...it would last longer if was constantly on,assuming that the cooling works properly

    Article is great,it has a real person behind it,not some PR puppet.

  • Retroid #103 2 years ago

    GreyBeard: "Look at the title of the piece; it places equal weighting on both platforms failure rate"

    No it doesn't. As I've already pointed out on a previous page, it says REASONS, not RATIO. They both unseat chips because of repeated heat & cooling. That is the same REASON.

    "Why PS3 and 360 drop dead for the same reasons"

    That's what it says. Not:

    "Why as many PS3s are dropping dead as 360s" or any such thing.

  • GamesConnoisseur #104 2 years ago

    It seemed a lot of people are angry with the article?

    EG never fudged that this was anything other than a report on ONE SINGULAR repair shop, and yes very andecotal. So they should have just stayed silence about the 'growing' reports of YLODs as well as of course continuing RRODs from every quarter?

    Question of taking proper editorial stance perhaps, and needing to have more references, but I cannot simply believe some people seem to put their head in sand about any instances of YLODs?

    'Lalalala its all the way X360 cos its just simply unreliable and there are only one or two PS3 YLODs in the whole world' kind of thinking seemed to be unchallenged?!

    I ll be the first to agree that the percentage or implication of PS3 being in the same percentage of PS3 YLODs is dangerous assertations without strong evidences, but SO is the asserations that there is only X360 PROBLEM and NOT PS3!

    Several PS3 owners have themselves come foward here and elsewhere, and I m not suprised that some of them had been ganged up on for being Xbot and not a 'loyal' PS3 owner!

    EDIT: Miths's PS3 gone YLOD! DocBarnett on Wednesday, and a few in this comments have said as well. So are them all a downright liars? Please yourselves!!
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 17:41

  • GreyBeard #105 2 years ago

    @Retroid

    The point is it associates a known issue with one piece of hardware with another, without weighting the assertion .

    Conflation in short.

  • GreyBeard #106 2 years ago

    @Gamesconnoisseur

    I'm certainly not of the opinion that the PS3 is a flawless technical marvel - I've already described my particular story of PS3 death in this thread!

    However, there is every indication that the 360's failure rate is unusually high compared to its competitors.

    One thing I find quite odd is that (unless I've missed it) there's been no mention of Game Informer's (recent and highly publicized) reliability survey on this site. Which is odd as just about every other gaming site on the web has covered it, and its findings are certainly salient to this particular piece.

    The figures they found, and MS response (which doesn't refute the findings) can be found here:

    [link url=http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story =24917
    ]http://ww w.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_in...[/link]
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 17:50

  • Miths #107 2 years ago

    Re: #119

    My PS3 is good and dead alright. I've tried numerous restarts, cooling it off (not that it was really particularly hot at the time it crashed), dis- and reconnecting cables, but nothing except that LED light briefly flashing yellow and then blinking red.
    Ten minutes ago I remembered that my Batman: Arkham Asylum disc was stuck in there - adding another €60 to the €375 (Danish prices are rather exorbitant) I'll be paying for the new Slim I ordered online immediately after I was sure my PS3 was a goner. Fortunately the PS3 fan test allowed me time to use the eject button and get the disc out before the console went back into YLOD "crash mode".

    How many years do you think it will take before I've earned those €375 back with the lower power consumption of the Slim? Now I sort of have my doubts I'll get there before it might be time for another replacement :p

  • Bazfrag #108 2 years ago

    @ Buggedbunny

    I meant if you took the comment literally, but i have stated earlier that the article tone is slanted.

    The Headline is blatant flamebait (4 da clix?), and this DOES look like a wtf moment:

    DF wrote:

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between Xbox 360 and PS3 they experience is remarkable in that it does prove pretty conclusively that both consoles are having exactly the same issues"

    The root causes may be similar, but the split has nothing to do with it. to a casual observer that reads like "ps3 fails almost as much as the 360," which is utter nonsense.

    I was trying to be kind to df, but having read again, even though the focus is mainly on 360, its not hard to see where you are coming from.

    *sorry for late reply, but the GP, and Liverpool kept me busy :)


    Edited by 2 at 29/08/09 @ 18:09

  • Retroid #109 2 years ago

    GreyBeard: "The point is it associates a known issue with one piece of hardware with another, without weighting the assertion .

    Conflation in short."

    The article says that apart from odd weeks there are always more 360s in for repair than PS3s. That's not weighing?

    If it had taken a tabloid-style approach of "We all know of the 360's RRoD problem, now we find the PS3 suffers from the same problem" then I'd 100% agree with you on it. But it doesn't. So I don't.

  • NewbieZilla #110 2 years ago

    "I swear you guys are outraged at everything."

    I am outraged by this suggestion.

  • makeamazing #111 2 years ago

    The problem is that its one repair shop... and there is no other evidence to suggest otherwise, its sloppy reporting. As i said earlier its like those dodgy facecream adverts where they have a small sample of people and then try to pass it off as something else.

    I dont think anyone doubts there are hardware issues with the PS3 and Wii as well... but this is a very poor article. It doesnt help that you also have someone suggesting that people should replace their hardware units every year... just seems like a article for articles sake. Yes I think having the article suggesting reasons why units fail is fine, but its the other things that make it such a poor article.

  • Retroid #112 2 years ago

    "and that 'journalistic' marvel about how serious gamers should buy new xbox every year is simply beyond belief."

    You mean the bit where the repairman says that? Not the author of the article? That bit?

  • Retroid #113 2 years ago

    NewbieZilla: ""I swear you guys are outraged at everything."

    I am outraged by this suggestion."

    I am outraged by your outrage.

  • Bazfrag #114 2 years ago

    What really grinds my gears is that i enjoy tech analysis, and have done since ZZap!(i think) did a report on how developers were getting around the Commodore 64 limited colour palette by switching colours at speed to give the illusion of a third colour.

    The lack of objectivity in some DF articles turns the discussion away from the analysis. There really is no need to bait the fantrap. The superiority of most 360 multiplat's is already well known, but the differences in most cases are purely superficial.

    Crummy analogy:

    I play Dow2 at 1680x1050. I dont rub it in to my friend who can only play at 1280x1024, and he doesn't gloat about his higher framerates, because we are both getting the same core experience.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 19:03

  • makeamazing #115 2 years ago

    You mean the bit where the repairman says that? Not the author of the article? That bit?

    Again... this isnt some news item that some bigwig has said, which of course we would all slate :D the DF is supposed to be looking at serious technical things and reporting them in a technical manner... this is more like, my mate who works for a repair center has said this and so we shall report on it :D

    It just makes people think the only reason for the article is clicks and the good parts of the article (e.g the reasons why hardware might fail) is totally lost.

  • Retroid #116 2 years ago

    Unfortunately anecdotal evidence is all we can rely on. MS never, at least that I'm aware of, released actual figures for the numbers of failed 360s (although it was clearly bloody bad for them) and Sony won't release figures either.

    It's like the launch Wii overheating issue which mine has - flickering pixels caused by the GPU getting heat damage from leaving Connect24 switched. I know other people who've had the issue but there are no numbers for it.

  • Bazfrag #117 2 years ago

    "The article says that apart from odd weeks there are always more 360s in for repair than PS3s. That's not weighing?"

    Reminds me of this: [link url=h ttp://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372555
    ]http://ww w.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.p...[/link]

    Bias with a few lines of failed reconciliation. Well maybe not quite up to i.g.n levels, but keep trying eh?

    Link fixed doh!
    Edited by 3 at 29/08/09 @ 19:39

  • Retroid #118 2 years ago

    SERIOUS COMMENT:

    If people could point out to me where these examples of bias are in the article I'd appreciate it. Because to me this is an example of one repair shop's experience and it doesn't pretend to be anything else.

    @Bazfrag: that link just dumped me onto page 4 of NG's Games Discussion subsection. :(

  • superdamiarno #119 2 years ago

    An appalling article, scandalous and borderline libelous. If I was Sony, I would get my lawyers on this straight away. Eurogamer and Digital Foundry, you should be ashamed of yourself !!

    / deletes eurogamer from favourites

  • Bazfrag #120 2 years ago

    Oops what a tool!! fixed!

    Now its more blatant, but i feel its a good comparison. If its not, blame the wiskey.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 19:47

  • Retroid #121 2 years ago

    @Bazfrag: :D

    Oh dear, that's a bloody awful link, even the title is cobblers. "[Wii] runs a distant second to 360 in annual profits" - ummm, no.

  • Bazfrag #122 2 years ago

    I cant link to ign directly, its not fair to inflict it upon people. :)

    The title of the thread is cobblers, i agree. Its the tone of the article that i find familiar.

    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 19:57

  • gazzy #123 2 years ago

    What a load of shite this article is.

    ANY expensive electronic goods are protected for three years (yes even the PS3) even after the manufacturers warranty has ran out.

  • makeamazing #124 2 years ago

    Unfortunately anecdotal evidence is all we can rely on. MS never, at least that I'm aware of, released actual figures for the numbers of failed 360s (although it was clearly bloody bad for them) and Sony won't release figures either.

    I agree its difficult to get figures, but that doesnt mean my mate down the repair shop is worthy of an article. I agree some parts of the article were interesting but the shoddy editing is just poor. If you were going to do a proper job you would at least make a call to a number of repair shops or at least try and get some more indepth information from another source... but that wasnt done was it :)

    Crikey if you just look at your own forums you can see the general idea of weighting of hardware issues between gamers.

  • MrChaz #125 2 years ago

    I you're over stating the case for the PS3 slim, the reduction in form factor is surely going to negate at least some if not all the benefits of a die-shrink...

    When my 5th x360 died just outside of warranty I just bought a new Jasper in the wild hope that would last longer than the 8 months to a year of my others.

  • Bazfrag #126 2 years ago

    @Mr Chaz

    Time will tell. Am i right in saying theres no power brick? It must be pretty tight in there.

  • JensonJet #127 2 years ago

    I believe I must have an exceptionally well made 360. It's first generation and as I'm self employed, don't care much for TV, my Xbox is used all the time. Often for extremely long periods. Also, to muffle the sound of the thing it sits between a wall and cabinet with cushions above it and in front. These don't actually touch it as they're lodged between wall and cabinet. It's also my only means of watching DVDs.

    Admittedly the DVD drive broke a couple of years ago but Microsoft fixed this, out of warranty, for free. At this point the console used to lie flat, within a cabinet. I believe lying Xboxes down flat is one route to reliability. Perhaps.

    So, exceptional console, or exceptional luck?

  • GhostInTheShell #128 2 years ago

    So the writer is trying to make the argument that the PS3 is just as unreliable as the 360 and he bases this very unlikely proposition on the experiences of a small repair shop that he just happened to come across while he got his own console fixed? This has got to be one of the sloppiest pieces of reasoning in a gaming-related article I've read in the last month. And keep in mind that video-game journalism is not very well-know for the strength of its logical paradigms.

  • Windsong #129 2 years ago

    no lead based solder points eh? So the whole (or at least some) reason for the RROD was based on tree hugger demands not to use lead in the software/hardware industry?

    Wow. Enviro-nazis strike again.

  • septimus #130 2 years ago

    Utter bullshit on the comparison of failure rates.... 6 360s vs 1 PS3. Not heard from anyone out of my 38 (not many I know, but I know them in real life) friends on PS3 have had a failure. Where as out of the 20 ish friends on Live have nigh on all reported at least 1 consoles failure. I'd imagine the GPU will be the main culprit in both. Christ, the nVidia chip in my MBP wants to eat through, my balls, then sofa, and floor as soon as anything mildly taxing kicks in.

    I know my PS3 will be running in 10 years, as my PS2 is now, and my PS1, and my Jaguar, and 3DO and SNES, and MD yadda yadda. 360... hope so, but doubt. it.

    -lie on the PS3 front, 1 friends PS3 has died.
    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 22:13

  • miiiguel #131 2 years ago

    I love DF articles, SDF boys going all crazy... Priceless.

    Don't take me wrong, it is funny.

  • RedSparrows #132 2 years ago

    I had an Amiga 500 that needed to be banged against the wall to work. Winz.

  • RedSparrows #133 2 years ago

    "Laughable"?

    What's laughable is that some people simply won't have a (factual) word said against their chosen appliance and shout BIAS then though no-one has said the problems are as widespread or as bad, or even that the numbers mentioned in the article are in any way representative of what's happening out there.

    ZANUSSI 4 LIFE, HOTPOINT GTFO


    THIS, over and over again. Chillax fanboys, sheesh.

  • Retroid #134 2 years ago

    GhostInTheShell: "So the writer is trying to make the argument that the PS3 is just as unreliable as the 360 and he bases this very unlikely proposition on the experiences of a small repair shop that he just happened to come across while he got his own console fixed?"

    No, he isn't. He's saying that *when* PS3s fail they fail for a similar reason: expansion and compression due to heat.

    The very fact that 360s are covered by a three-year warranty should mean that the only those not covered by MS' repairs are the ones turning up at his shop so whichever way you look at it there are still far more 360s RRoDing than there are PS3s YLODing.

  • cyber_nicco #135 2 years ago

    I've said it before, but this seems like a good place to say it again...

    I've had a US launch 360 Elite, and the only problem I had was a disc drive going wonky on me about 10 months ago. No freezes, no red rings, no E74. I use my Xbox probably 15 to 20 hours a week. Maybe not a lot around here, but I suspect more than the average overall.

    Thanks for listening...

  • cyber_nicco #136 2 years ago

    Oh, and the biggest problem is all the people demanding smaller consoles. The first Xbox was very reliable, but many people complained that it looked like a big brick. Bigger consoles have more room for airflow, and can support larger, quieter fans for increased cooling.

  • TVeyes #137 2 years ago

    Jesus, what utter tabloid journalism. Please do a little more fact checking. Digital Foundry my ass.

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between Xbox 360 and PS3 they experience is remarkable in that it does prove pretty conclusively that both consoles are having exactly the same issues "

    Get the fuck out of here !! Conclusively ? Who are you writing for ? The Sun ? Did you ever check to see if Microsoft had 4-5 times as many repair shops ? I am speechless.

    Granted, overheating due to dust is going to happen to all consoles, 360/PS3 more so than the Wii. But come on ! your logic is fucked.

    Edited by 1 at 29/08/09 @ 23:05

  • davisorle #138 2 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll

    Dont cry about it ... Or you wanna know the failure rates with all the PS2 and how many of them i had sent back and fixxed myself or from my buddy's shop right after the warranty was expired? I don't get what you are saying? Cause i can easily tell you that its exactly thre opossite as in the timing on why they brought up the failure rates ( which is based on a fanclub pole and its sad to see so many ppl bicthing about this kind of voting ) to actually BOOST the PS3 Slims rep since you put it the other way around.

    Anyhow, my point is, stop all of you BITCHING about a console. I mean do you think if you have or had gfs that they would be proud of you seeing this shit in here? Take it like a fking man and STOP CRYING when they prove shit to you. If you could be talking out of your ass about something that you have NO clue about whatsoever thats also based on fanboys saying their opinions and a 54%failure rate that was voted from ppl that didnt even have a 360 ( and dont tell me they forced them to prove it and you SERIOUSLY dont believe that there are fanboys that would vote out of their ass... funny shit to assume!? ), at least have the balls to accept some shit from ppl that know what they are talking about. At least the RRoD can be replaced for 3 years ( 2 out of warranty ). They wont be the ones crying for paying 499$ ( and 599$ here ) for paying what they paid for in release. You will.

    ME? Im a lucky owner that has also moded and abused his 360 and i cant give a FUCK what you think its true or not since you care nothing more than your console as if its your fucking child. Pathetic... if half of you defended your families and had half as much selfrespect as you do for yourfucking consoles things would have been better.

  • TVeyes #139 2 years ago

    @Davisorle

    It is not about the console allegiance of some users that posted here. This article is just bad journalism. Sure, pull the bad PS2 disc laser argument out of the bag, which some would say proved where you are coming from. But that is neither here nor there. IMO this article is just sweet smelling cow dung, written to attract the herd.

  • drumbaby #140 2 years ago

    Trying to equate this article with the distinct lack of anecdotal evidence about PS3 failure on the interwebs...I mean it's needle in a haystack-esque compared to the untold reams of Xbox 360 failure yarns.

    / suddenly remembers, this is EG.

  • DuX1112 #141 2 years ago

    My view is that this article does WELL to point out the key issues with the XboX 360, while not neglecting PS3's role in it (and its potential problems). Anyhow, the repair guy confirms that in every 20 broken consoles, 12 are 360's, while 8 are PS3's (if I remember well).

    So what's this fuss all about? Like, the PS3 never gets broken just because it's a PS3? And how do you know that? If the readers here claim that this article's 'anecdotal evidence' is untrue or unworthy, how are their backing up THEIR claims on the issue while using completely the SAME (and equally unreliable) 'anecdotal evidence', i.e. "Hey I have 20 friends with PS3's and only one of those malfunctioned'. WHAT? And that's reliable evidence? Contrary to the interviewed workshop's statistics?

    I mean, HOW people? How do you COUNTER this article's views on the subject? By using the very same 'flawed' anecdotal evidence argument? You're just lost. And if you wanna win, get some real weapons (like, Sony's info on their flawless consoles would be much appreciated if they wanted to clear this mess. But I get the feeling they don't. Weird, no?)

    BTW, what d you expect? It's a journalistic speculative article. No official numbers or info provided. How should a journalist approach this thing with all that vital info omitted? And he has to form a certain opinion. Come on people, think for a minute before you lash out!

    And in my opinion, the article goes HEAVY on Microsoft's ass, while kicking one in Sony's butt too. Fair is fair, XboX 360 gets bashed and punished, and the PS3 gets a very needed warning (especially with the PS3 Slim thing!). Fair enough, I say!

    P.S. One (1) year warranty on a (supposedly) high-end appliance like SONY PlayStation 3? That's... Fucking miserable. And unfair.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 01:12

  • Darren #142 2 years ago

    @a.j2020 - "...and the sony customer service told me that a launch 60 Gbs max life is 3 years which shocked me."

    Yes, it does me too but for entirely different reasons. One is why on earth would a Sony customer support person make such a claim and, two, how would they know anyway when the PS3 hasn't even been out 2.5 years yet nevermind 3? ;)

  • lagoonalight #143 2 years ago

    This is getting weird. I don't trust foundry anymore. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING on this site is meant to make the 360 sound like some innocent godson. I like my 360 but if there were ever a vote on the crappiest hardware ever made it would receive mine and many other fellow owner's votes. What is leadbetter up to anyway. The name of this article makes it look like he has a check in the mail from Micro. Get a life you ******* loser.

  • miiiguel #144 2 years ago

    lagoonalight
    24/07/09 @ 17:38
    ignore poster | #27 -4 You buried this comment Comment below viewing threshold Show
    Oh man you wankers really hate Sony over there don't you. Every article about these kinds of products from Sony seems to get the same responses from the same people that comment on how glorious the 360 is.
    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/arti cles/home-is-beta-until-it-hits-final-quality/comments ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/home-i...[/link]


    Of course...
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 01:49

  • Xerx3s #145 2 years ago

    "Get a life you ******* loser. "

    You must see the irony of that post by a person having a fit about consoles on the internet.

  • Xerx3s #146 2 years ago

    It's funny though, so many people in here claiming how shite this site is, how wrong the article writer is and how biased the community is. Makes you wonder why they keep coming back to this site, read the articles and make posts.

  • timberwolf #147 2 years ago

    surely you people arn't suggesting a 360 bias... *ahem*

  • davisorle #148 2 years ago

    @TVeyes
    I would agree with you if the same ppl who saw this article this way had seen the first one "54% failure rate" and so on.. There hasnt been neither will be an article of the kind that ownt bring the reactions of the herd out on its best. Its a sad fact. And all the bad laser on the drives were paid for being replaced and/or adjusted till they had to pay extra for full replacement... So I can tell you how much money Sony made over the past years through this whole bs going on yet noone cried about it that way and yet they are crying over free replacements. That's all im saying.

    Other than that im always amused by stupidity in the forums. I wont be that much botheredif some ppl are too manipulated or dumb to get some facts straight by themselves.And hell no for the kiddos that would have sex with their consoles if their USBs were just half inch bigger. Im just enojoying my games when I have time. :p

    EDIT: @ MattDamon

    lol dude...
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 03:59

  • Diomedes #149 2 years ago

    Richard Leadbetter=the Total MSMuppet.Now behind the DF banner !!

  • Calgon #150 2 years ago

    Hmmm... LOL, looky looky... PS3 fanboys clambering all over the place defending poor Sony's saintly reputation, imagine that after all the bullshit they've spouted about the PS3 being excellently made(honest they come accross like yank car salesmen "a shining example in console manufacturing quality... yes sir yours for only $299 and it even comes with them thur blu-rayz free of charge thur sir...";) it isnt actually that reliable afterall, infact it suffers the same kind of problems 360 does? LOL that has to hurt! ;)

    Since in general it has been found that PS3 consumes more power and gives off more heat(remember reports of CELLs melting PS3 boards a while before they had finalised it) than 360, you can atleast say the PS3s cooling solution/design is better because if it wasn't failure rates would be EVEN WORSE than the 360s was.

    All I can say to most of the people gettin upset about it is the old saying... you can dish it out but you can't take it, because it's true.

    The PS3 isn't super reliable it *will* fail more than the Wii(which doesnt even produce much heat in comparison), do some of you lack even the slightest bit of common sense? Someone is telling you they work on repairing these consoles and they see the same faults in both consoles, both related to heat and bad solder joints. The tricky thing is its likely that Sony dont have something as recognisable as the RROD to flag a fault such as this(the less you know the better for them, shows their experience) unless the YLOD is used for everything?

    Oh and just my thoughts on the idiots who claim 360 bias whenever they hear something they dont like(btw dont even think mentioning you own a 360 too changes anything)....

    I love how when Eurogamer have the balls not to be up Sony's backside like so many gaming sites out there used to be(when Sony practically had it all to themselves) and actually tell the straight facts without sugar coating it for Sony i.e. "these framerates are higher than those, here's the actual proof of this", they get called biased or 360 lovers. I mean isn't that just you saying, be fanboys of the PS3 like me please or I will bitch and moan 'till I get my own way, this is the way of the Sony fanboy. It is isn't it?

    The problem isn't Eurogamer its YOU! Take a deep breath, step back and assess just what is you are so worked up about, it's because you cannot accept your favoured platform being shown in a worser light than its rival(it's unhealthy to hate a company or peice of equipment that much anyway) whether it's true or not... you will find a way not to accept it either way.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 04:40

  • Spekingur #151 2 years ago

    So, with a one year warranty Sony can actually manipulate failure rate announcements since they would probably only rely on the number of machines that they themselves need to replace or fix.

    RROD and X360 failures are always being banged on and on about - it will still be going when the next XBox is released. Heck, the next XBox might have like a 1% failure rate and to some it would be like the apocalypse.

    Edit: I also think that people are reading this article the wrong way. They are reading it with the view of seeing either the X360 or the PS3 stand out as a winner at the end of it. The author of the article is pointing out that both machines seem to be having the same overheating problems - warping of circuit boards (as I understood it). He is pointing to the numbers as a proof of that cause and suggesting that there might be quite a few more breakdowns from both consoles in the next few years. Once PS3 Slim has been out for two years then we will also be able to see what the real and actual hardware problems it will be having.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 05:42

  • Spekingur #152 2 years ago

    I'm guessing that the 50% is supposed to be X360 and the 1% is supposed to be PS3. Are those percentages of awesomeness? Or percentages of sanity within the ranks of executives of the console companies?
    Edited by 2 at 30/08/09 @ 05:46

  • Spekingur #153 2 years ago

    I think I'll choose sanity levels - people's sanity is alot more interesting subject than hardware.

  • BadFlounder #154 2 years ago

    This article isn't even accurate. The cell AND the RSX are 65nm in the 80/160 gb PS3 units. The cell in the slim is 45nm with the same 65nm RSX.

  • toy_brain #155 2 years ago

    I read the article - yes, I actually READ it - unlike 95% of the tossers commenting, and found it to be quite interesting.
    It is essentially a report on a conversation had with a guy in a repair shop that Richard thought would be relevant and informative enough to share with everyone. Hardly the height of investigative journalism, but it does not pretend to be anything else so thats fine.

    Honestly the comments for this article make me weep, they really do. So many people seemingly incapable of reading sentences written in basic English it's just pitiful. He (Richard) even debunks the 60/40 fail ratio within the article, and somehow everyone is reading the 'buy a new console each year' quip as a line said by MS/Sony official PR, instead of some guy down a repair shop.
    Good grief.

    Anyway, thanks again Richard for another interesting article to read during the weekend.
    Everybody else, LEARN TO READ!

  • aphexstwin #156 2 years ago

    not reading 180 comments, but both my ps3 and 360 have died in the last 6 weeks.

    my 360 is about 2 years old. its pre hdmi. i kept it, for 18 months on a shelf above my tv, loads of airflow around it. it now lives in a tv cabinet, open front, closed back. it rrod'ed last sunday.

    my ps3 has always lived in an open front, closed back hole uder the tv. its a launch 60gb, so 2 & 1/2 years old ish. it moved into a new cabinet the same height as the 360. its repair was for a destroyed bdr drive, it wouldn't feed in discs.

    while this is my case study, i cant help think that the ps3 is just better engineered to deal with heat than the 360, and my ps3 runs much warmer than the 360.

    and dont seek solace in SoGA, if you cant prove it was a defect due to sloppy manufacturing, a design flaw, then retailers arent obliged to offer repairs for free after the warranty is out. any consumer advice department will tell you this, its the retailers get of jail free card, tho most will look after you if you push hard enough.

  • Godhather08 #157 2 years ago

    What a load of bullshit. To even mention the PS3 together with the X360 is just ridiculous. The Wii and the PS3 has a failure rate of less than 10% and the X360 has a failure rate of 40-50% !!! this article is just fanboy bullshit.

    Big fail from this crappy biased fanboy site as usual.

  • Sharzam #158 2 years ago

    Every electricial applicane is prone to technical problems, and every computing device is prone to problems due to heat. A PS3 and a Xbox 360 both do immense computing so the article is bang on the point that asking them to do such things in small cases is going to lead to problems this is common sense. what i dont get is people saying no my xxxx doesnt break down because xxxx, just because yours or people you know doesnt mean others dont also its the same as saying my toaster works so must be better than my kettle as that broke the other day (funnily enourgh mine did other day). THere both consumer electronics both with there own problems but both will have heat build up problems.

  • techn88 #159 2 years ago

    Being a PS3 owner i found this very interesting. i have had a problem with my ps3, it has died on my once, although i believe it to have been a blu ray drive problem rather then the YLOD.

    unfortunately this happened a few weeks after my warranty ran out. however the great thing was that after doing a bit of research online i found out that this could be a common problem and a fault of sony.

    so i rang them up prepared to argue my case, however i spoke to a women (actually english!!) who was extremely friendly, told her the problem and within 5 minutes she informed me someone would be round to collect the console and fix it. she didnt even ask if it was out of warranty, clearly knowing this was a sony fault. so within a week or so my working console was returned.

  • DDevil #160 2 years ago

    Lots of people (read: Sony Defence Force) have clearly not actually read the article. This article does NOT say the failure rate of the PS3 is as high as the 360 - in fact it says the opposite.

    What it actually says (and brace your self for this one) is the PS3 and 360 drop dead for the same reasons. I think Richard should have made that the headline of the article as to make it less confusing...

    Oh wait.

  • des #161 2 years ago

    Oh SDF warriors are here to defend their precious console...yay
    What is the new conspiracy theory?I blame Nintendo,Wii is not even mentioned in the article a bit suspicious i think...

  • a.j2020 #162 2 years ago

    @darren...Well...they don't really need to have it out for 3 years to know that. They could have done testing and put it through the amount of average playtime as in 3 years and come to that conclusion but either way...why on earth the customer service agent said that still does beat me as well. Possibly because i shouted..."for the repair price i can buy an xbox 360!!"...lol

    But in all honesty, whatever the failure rate of the ps3..I still reckon that when you pay €600 for a system, you should expect at least 5 years of good service and I think Sony should at least give a 3 year warranty like MS.

  • Power_n_Glory #163 2 years ago

    The 60 gig PS3's have a problem. My brother's had his for 3 years before it got the YLOD and Sony wanted to charge him £150 to fix it because it was out of warranty. Didn't people wonder why Sony phased out the 60 gigs so early.

  • ps3owner #164 2 years ago

    replace every year ? that puts the PC price into perspective... not really expensive compared to a console then! 3 consoles in 3 years vs 1 PC every 3 years. haven't got the numbers, but I am sure the price would basically be similar.

  • butler` #165 2 years ago

    I'm usually heavily in favour of my 360 over my ps3 .. as is anyone with a clue

    But to suggest that PS3s endure a failure rate anywhere near to that of 360s seems utter bull. I've personally had 5 or so 360s (three normal ones and two elites) since release and I've not had a single problem (touch wood) with my ps3. This can be generalised tor my rather wide network of gaming folk, too.

  • Spekingur #166 2 years ago

    They get in an almost equal amount of PS3s and X360s because of the warranty - would be my best common sense guess. Again, the article is not exactly highlighting the failure ratio but much rather possible causes. And, in return, points out that the one year warranty that Sony provides might not be long enough.
    In my country all electronic equipment get a two year warranty, part of consumer legislation. Sadly, though, none of the console list it as "supported in.." and thus Sony could point to that and refuse all help towards the retailers.

  • EvilBob_leeds #167 2 years ago

    Sweet Zombie Jesus, what a bun fight.

    In order to put all this into context, it's worth pointing out that the total number of Xboxes sold up to August 2006 in Europe (and therefore now out of warranty and not fixed by MS themselves) where around the 1.3 million mark. The total number of PS3s sold up to August 2008 (and therefore now out of warranty yada yada) where around 5.8 million.

    My point being that there's more than 4 times as many PS3s in Europe out of warranty than there are XBoxes. Which means the 60/40 split at this place is what you'd expect to see; in fact it's slightly worse than the 10% vs 50% faliure rate from Gamasutra a couple of people have mentioned ([link url=http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story =24917)
    ]http://ww w.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_in...[/link]

    And for the number of dicks saying that PS3 owners cover up their failure rates, yeah that's right. We all got together and had a big secret meeting about it. Jesus.

    EDIT: spelling
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 13:20

  • Faceman #168 2 years ago

    Not only that but he misspelt "pallets".

  • rotmm #169 2 years ago

    @Nick185,

    To be honest, I'd take your viewpoint more seriously had you (a) actually read the article and (b) hadn't previously shown yourself to be a fantard of the very worst kind.

  • Retroid #170 2 years ago

    EvilBob_leeds: "In order to put all this into context, it's worth pointing out that the total number of Xboxes sold up to August 2006 in Europe (and therefore now out of warranty and not fixed by MS themselves) where around the 1.3 million mark. The total number of PS3s sold up to August 2008 (and therefore now out of warranty yada yada) where around 5.8 million.

    My point being that there's more than 4 times as many PS3s in Europe out of warranty than there are XBoxes. Which means the 60/40 split at this place is what you'd expect to see; in fact it's slightly worse than the 10% vs 50% faliure rate from Gamasutra a couple of people have mentioned"

    Precisely part of the point I've been trying to make here, and that's what the article says.

    Some people are just looking for an opportunity to shout "bias!"
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 14:04

  • Retroid #171 2 years ago

    Well, my Spectrum, C64 and even Amigas (including A1200) were all running without any sort of active cooling, infact I remember thinking it was hilarious that PCs needed fans on their CPUs... now it's amazing how many tiny fans I can hear in my home at any one time; 360, PS3, Wii, hell, even my Sky+ box needs active cooling.

    There was a time when the only sound electronics made was the electrical 'buzz'...

  • a.j2020 #172 2 years ago

    I agree with retroid...a lot of people are here to read bias and thats why they are seeing bias in this article...But i will also say that EG has to take part of the blame for this because they do generally tend to have slight bias against ps3...The MGS 4 saga comes to mind. But I havent spotted any bias in this article as such..and this is coming from a ps3 only owner. Albeit one that is in the market for a 360

  • EvilBob_leeds #173 2 years ago

    the ps3 has a much lower attach rate

    You don't half talk some crap Donnie. Where did you pull that completely untrue fact from then? The PS3 and 360s attach rates are roughly equal. PS3 owners do use the Blu Ray in addition to playing just as many games as 360 owners. So the average PS3 is probably under more stress. Speaking personally, mines rarely off.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 14:22

  • Retroid #174 2 years ago

    No, the 360 has had more failures because they skimped on testing and produced it was quickly and cheaply as they could to start off with. I do remember reading about machines dying in the demo pods in shops *before launch*.

    No such stories about the PS3, unless you count the amount of fingerprints they attracted! :D

  • Goodfella #175 2 years ago

    Oh my God, donnie's arguments for the 360 and against the PS3 get more and more ridiculous by the day. How do you account for the huge daily use of my launch day PS3 which has never had a problem, meanwhile my 360 went tits up after 15 months which was barely used? (which i fixed myself, PROPERLY, using an x-clamp kit bought off ebay).

    Edited to add 'launch day'.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 18:00

  • MikeJones #176 2 years ago

    More reason not to get a PS3. With the X360 and PS3 failure rate at 60/40 I don't see the point.

  • Bazfrag #177 2 years ago

    "Hey rabid Xbox 360 fans, come up with a more retarded comment than donnie080208 above and win a prize!"

    Impossible.

    "people use ps3 for mainly for BR which puts less stress on the machine."

    In your opinion.

    When i was looking into getting the hd-dvd add on, (dodged a bullet there!) i remember reports that when in use, it was the only thing at the time that used nearly all the 360 cpu power. More than running a complex game would. I would imagine br playback is also quite taxing.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 16:08

  • GreyBeard #178 2 years ago

    More reason not to get a PS3. With the X360 and PS3 failure rate at 60/40 I don't see the point.

    Reading just that article in isolation I would have come to the same conclusion.

    That's why I have an issue with it.
    Edited by 1 at 30/08/09 @ 16:07

  • El-Dev #179 2 years ago

    donnie080208:

    "the 360 has more failures because it has the best most addictive online which people tend to play for many consecutive hours and is used exclusively for hardcore ,time intensive games by lots of gamers."

    "you do have to take into account which console will on average have the most gaming hours clocked on it every week and this beyond doubt will be the 360."

    So you're saying that the 360 isn't fit for purpose? MS would be pissed off to hear that, surely a member of AFXG shouldn't be saying things like that.

  • movellon #180 2 years ago

    You also have to keep in mind that for the general hardware fault the 360 has a three year warranty and the PS3 has a one year warranty so that's going to have a skewing effect on the figures. You're more likely to find PS3 out of warranty for that fault than you will for 360's so the ratio of 360's to PS3's showing this fault is likely to be much higher.

  • Kenshin001 #181 2 years ago

    Seems Richard edited the article after reading the comments.

    Before:

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between PS3 and Xbox 360 they experience is remarkable..."

    After:

    "In terms of failure rates, the 60/40 split between Xbox 360 and PS3 they experience is remarkable..."

    Kind of sloppy, misleading reporting there.

  • Goodfella #182 2 years ago

    Sloppy, plus there's no way the PS3 failure rate is anyway near the laughable disaster that the 360 is guilty of.

  • lagoonalight #183 2 years ago

    For the record I don't hate either console the fanboys bug me and this site full of 360 fanboys bugs me just like anything from the PS3 side. Seriously, this shite is ridiculous. The titles of Foundry articles are obviously baiting people and to me that is just shoddy journalism. A better title might have been, 'A Look Into Why The 360 and PS3 Have Hardware Failures.' Yeah, there you go. Truth. The title is just pure bias in form to make these things look equal when they are obviously not. I do not know ONE person that has not had a problem with their 360 out of at least 15. I have experienced no one on the PS3 side but am very aware of the problems with the 60GB. If my 80GB BC failed I would very very angry. It doesn't change the fact that this and the GT5 article along with the Mass affect love shorts are just favoring one over the other. Also, I have never seen a comparison of Bionic Commando Rearmed on this site, a great game that actually has more resolution and shadows, not to mention framerate, on the PS3. They just seem to skip over games that favor the PS3 and try to make the 360 sound like it's alright when the fact is the failure rate of original launch consoles is already proven to be at least 68 percent it was published in a book by an insider. I wouldn't doubt something like 95% to tell you the truth. Eventually it gets you.

  • Retroid #184 2 years ago

    The reasons are expansion & contraction caused by heating and cooling.

    Both consoles suffer from it (with the early models of the 360 suffering from appalling levels of it).

    So, both consoles can from dead from the same reasons. Like the title of the article says.

    Seriously, FFS.

    As for Bionic Commando, here is the DF page which mentions the better-than-360 PS3 version.

  • rotmm #185 2 years ago

    @donnie, "the 360 has more failures because it has the best most addictive online which people tend to play for many consecutive hours and is used exclusively for hardcore...."

    Oh. My. Fucking. God.

  • Goodfella #186 2 years ago

    @ rotmm

    I feel your dumbfoundedness.

  • Gaol #187 2 years ago

    I do think this article is at least a bit guilty of playing to fanboy hits, by using anecdotal evidence of a direct comparison between PS3 and 360 repair figures. Given the much shorter warranty on PS3s, it's not really a set of figures that you can extrapolate much from.

    For me, the 360 launch models were faulty by design; wheras the PS3 seems to fail from a much wider range of faults; and it is typically after a longer period of time. In fairness to Microsoft though, they have countered the crappy launch with a three year warranty and the new models appear to be much better. More interesting would be an analysis of the improvements made to either system, and an in depth look at the Slim.

    Someone mentioned that manufacturers of these goods should be forced to supply a 5 year warranty. This is a great idea as it would certainly focus the manufacturers' minds on getting something reliable out. This would be a good idea for car manufacturers too, but that's another story >_>.

  • Spekingur #188 2 years ago

    Oh wow. Some of you people are just still not grasping what the article is about and what it points out about warranties on both consoles.

  • drivenstorm #189 2 years ago

    Good article. But, pet hate of mine, it's "method" not "methodology".

  • Rens11 #190 2 years ago

    what ya gotta remember though is that most 360's are still in their original warranty if they had the same as PS3 the numbers would be alot different!

  • myke6699 #191 2 years ago

    I can se it now- the original title for this article, "System Failure: Why so many 360 drop dead". Someone at EG saw the title was horrified (for obvious reason). The article was re-written to present a more balanced view on subject (ie. make sure to show the the PS3 is just as fucked).
    Another plausible secnario- Richard decides to write an article on 360 failure rate. Realize that DF is now part of EG. Put 2 and 2 together and voila this well balanced article.

  • womble #192 2 years ago

    "I dont believe it. The forums are full of people talking about failed X360, and very little mention of failed Playstation 3's"

    Perhaps next time you could be bothered to read other comments, before posting. That way, you'd know that your point has been addressed, and various explanations presented.

    PS3 failures are widely mentioned on the net. It's just that RROD gets MUCH more attention, usually because of over-zealous PS3 fans.

  • womble #193 2 years ago

    DEAR PS3 FANBOYS:

    A request from one PS3 owner to all the PS3 fanboys: please, shut the hell up. You are embarrassing in your zealotry and single-mindedness.

    The PS3 is a great machine, and the Slim is great value. (Go buy one, today!) But you fanboy asshats really turn people away from the PS3 with your shrill, unrelenting ghetto-mentality. The PS3's problem isn't the hardware or the games: it's YOU.

    If you spend a fraction of the time playing games that you do frothing on the internet, spamming fora, marking "xbot" comments down, making up fake RROD statistics, downplaying PS3 failure statistics, you would have realized a long time ago that there's more to the gaming world than the PS3.

    PEOPLE LIKE DIFFERENT CONSOLES. DEAL WITH IT, AND GET OVER IT.

    And for those people bashing DF and EG: feel free to start up your own technical blog. Impress us with your knowledge and insight, instead of posturing online and attacking information that you get for free.


  • Goodfella #194 2 years ago

    @ Womble

    Oh please, if anything this comments section is rife with the usual anti PS3 propaganda.

  • Zappa #195 2 years ago

    FACT!
    360 is crap and everyone has had RROD.


    PS3 has internal power and a slot drive and still is far more reliable.

  • zarglu #196 2 years ago

    "PS3 failures are widely mentioned on the net. It's just that RROD gets MUCH more attention, usually because of over-zealous PS3 fans."

    Nonsense. PS3 issues are very rare, even when you look for them in the forums.
    360 issues are highly commonplace, and were clearly visible in MS financial statements. The 50% return-rate within the first two years was also acknowledged by MS. PS3 is nowhere near 50%, but more like the standard 3-5% found in electronic goods.

  • speedjack #197 2 years ago

    Good article.

    I'm on my 3rd 360 so none of this comes as much of a surprise.

    ...and finding out that Sony have a far bigger problem than they let on is about as big a surprise as discovering water is wet.

    I'd have binned my 360 if it wasn't for the excellent repair experience I had and the fact that MS put their hand up, admitted they had a problem and extended the warranty.

    I feel for Sony owners though.

    You may not have a problem now - but the evidence suggests you may well have soon, and based on previous form I think its extremely unlikely that Sony will either A) admit they have an issue or, B) Be able to fund anything like the warranty extension programe MS have.

    Just remember though fanboys - both MS and Sony want dominance in this market... and the best way to do that is 'Divide and Conquer'.

    So whilst you idiots bicker over whose console has the biggest willy,MS and Sony are laughing at us (the consumer) and getting away with some of the worst consumer electronics build quality in recent memory.

    We should be standing together and saying 'I'm mad as hell and I WILL NOT TAKE IT ANYMORE!'.



    /looks around





    /hears pin drop






    Edited by 5 at 31/08/09 @ 10:01

  • dominalien #198 2 years ago

    Here's a tip: instead of bashing the console you don't like concentrate on praising the console you do.

    I'll give some examples to get you people started:

    PS3 only owner:
    It's quiet and has an internal power supply!

    X360 only owner:
    I love how almost all games are nicely antialiased!

    Wii console owner:
    I love how it makes me move around and managed to lose 2 kgs!

    All console owner:
    Gears rulezzz! Uncharted is ace! Zelda rocks!

  • SeesThroughAll #199 2 years ago

    I'd have binned my 360 if it wasn't for the excellent repair experience I had and the fact that MS put their hand up, admitted they had a problem and extended the warranty.

    Seriously, you should invite those wonderful people at MS to your wedding. Such marvellous, decent, human beings they are.

    The fact is Microsoft denied the RROD problem like crazy at the beggining. You should thank those imaginary "over-zealous Sony fanboys" for the media backlash that forced their hand. I can't believe the amount of people who now recall the PR exercise of extending the warranty in order to hide the problem as an act of generosity!

    Would Sony do the same if the same problem actually existed in the same scale for the PS3? Yes, they probably would, considering that how most of the media (especially US) has always attacked them (and rightfully so, for the most part) since 2005!

    So, stop lying to yourself: the PS3 is not perfect at all, and issues have been showing over the last months, but most flaws still happen to older launch models. With the PS3, a lot of the flaws that happen are BD drive laser issues, but those usually actually occur within warranty. I'm inclined to believe that the failure rate of the PS3 is around 10% (which is NOT good), but still far from the (known) craptastic 30% the 360 had near launch.

    If you're the intelligent consumer you claim to be, you should stop encouraging companies to release defective, badly tested products... including your beloved Microsoft.
    Edited by 2 at 31/08/09 @ 12:51

  • Geordiemp #200 2 years ago

    My original 60 GB PS3 failed, and the refurb was making hairdryer noises to cope with the 90 nm chips and so much heat, so I traded it in (yes gave up backward compatability) for a 80 GB Ps3 (cell and RSX both 65 nm). CECHL03 and later are all 65 nm.

    Note the trade in was CHEAPER than the £ 140 sony charge (OK it had not failed YET, but the cooling level was such that it would not last years).

    Got 2 Xboxes, both 65 nm 60 GB Jasper, install all games and play from HD. So little heat.

    In Electrical design terms the XBOX 360 is a better design in theory with external power bricks (keeping heat away from the main boad. The PS3 cooling is better, but using NXE to play all games from HD keeps the XBOX cooler.

    Seems to me, whether XBOX or PS3, try to get onto all 65 nm chips or better (Will get a second PS3 when slim comes out). If your Xbox / PS3 is making lots of cooling noise or getting hot, change it !

    Got to admit, Sony warranty sucks. I argued with them the 3 year EU warranty and they just ignore you. The playstation threads are full of whining users with hairdryer 60 GB PS3 (you cany watch blu ray at night with that bloody noise).

    Edited by 1 at 31/08/09 @ 10:55

  • kipper #201 2 years ago

    Dear DF/EG,
    Congratulations, your article has actually scared me into doing the vacuuming.
    I did the Xbox first, then the rest of the house second, of course.

  • onyxbox #202 2 years ago

    My 360 launch unit lasted nearly 3 years... I went out and got a new one last Christmas ( while the old one was being repaired) and the new one has been replaced 3 times. Read what you like into that bur it was interesting to hear that the old ones were quite robust... fits with my story.

    My PS3 gets hammered... Use it for everything like DVD, Blue Ray, play TV, gaming etc. Every day for Over 2 years and so far so good ... Although I do worry about that Blue Ray drive.

  • Xerx3s #203 2 years ago

    "Would Sony do the same if the same problem actually existed in the same scale for the PS3? Yes, they probably would, considering that how most of the media (especially US) has always attacked them since 2005! "

    Like fuck they would. Sony didn't change it's tune about the lasers in the ps2 until they where successfully sued. And even then, you would be hard-pressed to get yours repaired for free. As for the rest of your post, it's pointless, baseless and only serves fanboy arguments.

  • speedjack #204 2 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll


    'If you're the intelligent consumer you claim to be, you should stop encouraging companies to release defective, badly tested products... including your beloved Microsoft. '

    Wow.

    Did you actually read my post ?

    Edited by 1 at 31/08/09 @ 11:42

  • Erebu #205 2 years ago

    @ Xerx3s

    Maybe because it wasn't a 60% failure rate?
    And no his post isn't pointless.

  • Demiath #206 2 years ago

    Provided that they've been handled reasonably well (and we're not talking true perfectionist care here), a 1989 Gameboy and a 1991 Super NES will work just fine even 20 years after the date of purchase. By contrast, modern consoles can't even survive for more than two-three years at most. This all boils down to pathetic, inexcusable and borderline fraudulent business practices from massive corporations like Sony and Microsoft. Let's sure their collective asses to hell...

  • rotmm #207 2 years ago

    @donnie,

    Maybe that's because your "theory" is just that, a "theory" that you have developed based on your own slanted viewpoint about how consoles are used. You have offered no proof or statistics to back up your claim, and yet you want someone to refute your arguments?

    Let me offer you another reason for RROD's being more common than YLOD (or other) faults.

    360 owners are more likely to live in dirty, dusty houses and are more likely to be smokers. They are also more likely to spend more time at home in their unwashed boxer-shorts, therefore allowing more skin and sweat particles to make their way into the living environment. Xbox 360 owners are also less lilely to have friends, meaning that they never open the doors and windows at home, leading to a more humid (and fetid) environment.

    The above description (which I'm sure you fit) of an average 360 owner clearly demonstrates why that particular console is more likely to fail.

    I hope this helps.

  • SeesThroughAll #208 2 years ago

    @ rotmm:

    I think you were a bit harsh there, don't you think?

  • GreyBeard #209 2 years ago

    Some of these comments are priceless.
    Here's a little time-line of the whole RROD debacle. Feel free to cross-check my facts.

    *Update* Added 4 separate class-action suits levied over the time-frame.

    11/05 - 360 launches

    12/05 - First class action suit filed by Ian Byers of Chicago.

    09/06 - After 10 months of negative reports, MS admits there may be problem with the initial batch of 360's. Its at this point that their standard 90-day warranty is extended to a year (in the US).

    12/06 - Californian Kevin Ray files a class action suit over the fall update bricking his 360

    04/07 - In April MS declares that it is no longer charging shipping on repairs, and extends the warranty on repairs.

    07/07 -In July the 3 year warranty on RROD is introduced. Peter Moore (class dude that he is) personally apologizes for the issue, and confirms: "It's a variety of hardware issues which we're taking steps to rectify." $1bn is set aside for the warranty program. (Actual cost as of 4/09 puts the actual cost at $1.05 -1$.15bn, although some reports put it as high as $2bn)

    This follows 5 days after a RETAILER survey at DailyTech.com that claims a 33% fail-rate on the hardware.

    07/07 Another class action suit is filed, this time in Ft Lauderdale. This time its over the disc-scratching issue.

    10/07 - First Falcon (65nm CPU) chipset based 360's start appearing at retail. Problem is assumed over.

    10/07 - Another class action suit is filed in California, this time its about the RROD issue

    11/08 - First Jasper (65nm CPU & GPU) chipsets start appearing at retail.

    04/09 - MS acknowledges the growing numbers of "E74" failures and adds it to the 3 year warranty. This time though they are less candid and attempt to differentiate RROD failures from "E74" issues, despite admitting that they are BOTH symptoms of the same problem. They promise to reimburse customers who have been charged for "E74" repairs, and set aside another $0.5bn to cover this program.

    Evidently 2 hardware revisions later, there is still a problem.

    And yeah, all this is a product of the "SDF's" fevered imaginations.



    Edited by 2 at 31/08/09 @ 13:46

  • Retroid #210 2 years ago

    "Evidently 2 hardware revisions later, there is still a problem."

    Or: There are still a lot of patch-job repairs out there which need their *real* issues addressed.

    It's also worth noting that after a firmware update changed some of the problems which would make a 360 RRoD (which is just a "General Hardware Failure" indicator in itself) into E74 errors there was a general worry that it was MS trying to worm their way out of paying for those repairs as the extended 3 year warranty only applied to RRoD.

    The fact that they said it would cover E74 errors aswell was actually of some help to people who had been getting this error intermittently and had been previously told they'd have to pay out for the repair.

    Yes, MS did indeed fuck up with the 360 design, but at least they are infact facing (and paying) up to it.

  • Retroid #211 2 years ago

    @donnie080208: your 'theory' is just your own idea / experience. Don't try to extend it further than that.

  • Psychotext #212 2 years ago

    "There are still a lot of patch-job repairs out there which need their *real* issues addressed."

    That's the real issue here. The latest revision is just fine (Jasper), but until Microsoft stops sending out old refurbs it's not going to make the slightest difference to those who get multiple failures.

  • GamesConnoisseur #213 2 years ago

    Enjoy your consoles whatever it is, I just finished Batman (Joker free X360 version) instead of spending my spleen on the posts.

    People gonna believe what they will, so just pray that no one will get to RROD/YLOD and if it do, they know what to do. PS3 owners do post on YLOD thread and suggest advices to each other and the same for X360 in a well known RROD thread.

    Time will tell, more than fanboy comments will, if there is any grain of truth in there being more/less hardware faults.

  • GreyBeard #214 2 years ago

    @Retroid

    The problem is still there, I suspect very much reduced in frequency from what it was, but new model 360's still fail with E74.

    I know this from personal experience, and from numerous posts on places like the EG forums.

    Retroid, you seem like a reasonable, intelligent guy, why are you expending so much effort defending MS over this issue?

    The absolute truth of all this is that the 360 has a ton of positive things going for it, price/performance, software support, online functionality, solid controller design. What it doesn't have though, is reliability on its side!

    This is why Richard's article concerned me. It conflates this huge, ongoing issue with the 360 (its "achilles heel" by any standard) with a less frequent problem on the PS3.

    It reads (to me) like a smear, especially coming as it does days before a new SKU gets rolled out.

    And that's just not right. And I'm saying that as a consumer, not a member of some idiot "sdf" faction.


  • Psychotext #215 2 years ago

    "The problem is still there, I suspect very much reduced in frequency from what it was, but new model 360's still fail with E74."

    I'd love you to point me towards where you're seeing all these reports of Jasper 360s failing. I've read about 4 of them, 2 DOA, 1 PSU failure and one drive failure. You mention EG, but there's not been a single Jasper failure reported on the EG forums. If you're talking about the falcon model... then yeah, there have been a bunch reported, but more in line with the PS3 / Wii failures than the original 360s.

  • Retroid #216 2 years ago

    GreyBeard: "Retroid, you seem like a reasonable, intelligent guy, why are you expending so much effort defending MS over this issue?"

    I'm not - at the end of the day they're all corporations out to make money from us. I'm absolutely certain that if MS become dominant overall that they'll start screwing their customers over, and they fouled up the first few revisions of 360 hardware EXTREMELY badly. I'm simply pointing out the (sometimes outrageous) incorrect readings of what the article actually says, with people seemingly wanting to jump to XBOT accusations about the title actually daring to mention the PS3 in the same breath as the 360's hardware failures. Without actually reading the article to see what it really says.

    I own as many of the formats as I possibly can, so I'm not a single-format gamer / collector either.

    *I've had broken 360s (launch model and the repaired machine I got back, after about a year), a 60gb PS3, two PS2s (one of them a slim), a Gamecube, SNES, NES, C64, Oric & a Spectrum. Off the top of my head.
    Edited by 1 at 31/08/09 @ 16:01

  • Lukey__b #217 2 years ago

    I've had a 360 go bye bye.

    Just thought I'd share that.

    I had 3 ps2's break in the past aswell. Sony were really cool about replacing/fixing them..... MS screwed me.

  • Spekingur #218 2 years ago

    They did? Did they use a protection?

  • Feanor #219 2 years ago

    My fat PS2 is still going strong 6 and half years after I bought it.

    I doubt any PS3 slim I might buy this year will still be working in 2016.

  • cyber_nicco #220 2 years ago

    Also, for the record. If EG has any anti-sony bias, I am sure they are just making up for the anti-Microsoft bias they had until maybe the very end of the last generation.

    btw, the Sony fans were merciless in bashing the original Xbox, even though it was a superior machine to the PS2 in every way. Except, perhaps, aesthetically.

  • SeesThroughAll #221 2 years ago

    @ Retroid:

    I'm not - at the end of the day they're all corporations out to make money from us. I'm absolutely certain that if MS become dominant overall that they'll start screwing their customers over, and they fouled up the first few revisions of 360 hardware EXTREMELY badly. I'm simply pointing out the (sometimes outrageous) incorrect readings of what the article actually says, with people seemingly wanting to jump to XBOT accusations about the title actually daring to mention the PS3 in the same breath as the 360's hardware failures. Without actually reading the article to see what it really says.

    I'm going to try to summarize what I (and probably a few others here) see wrong with this article:

    1 - Mentioning a vague 60/40 360/PS3 repair ratio from one random repair center, and then refusing to quote other numbers from retailers surveys.
    It's fair enough to point out that there are no official numbers from neither MS nor Sony, but in that case why refer to the ratio from one shop and just stop there? Since this is supposed to be a technical blog, why not refer to past surveys from several retailer chains (as opposed to ONE repair shop) as well? Heck, why not a bit more statistics about how old the consoles that are going to repair are? I only read in the article that acording to that shop, it seems that contrary to common belief, the launch 360s actually were more robust. What about the broken PS3s? Are the 40GB models (when Sony changed factories) really less prone to breaking than the 60GB ones? How about trying to somehow use surveys to estimate how long will each console model last in average? Just carefully disclaim about the other sources of the data as well...

    2 - Comparing distinct hardware designs as if identical.
    As far as this article is concerned, the 360 and the PS3 are almost the same in that there's a board, a heat producing CPU and a heat producing GPU. There is a detailed description of what the technicians do to fix a 360, but not so many details for the PS3. Not even a mention of the very real BD drive laser problems that do happen a lot in early models. I think it's fair to say that the power supply inclusion in the PS3 box adds considerably to the heat. And that its size, along with the gigantic fan, do constitute a better cooling solution. It might have been a good idea to show infrared pictures that display the heat output of the operating consoles (like I once saw on Joystik).

    3 - Even the title "Why PS3 and 360 drop dead for the same reasons" is self-conclusive and wrongly leads people into thinking that the PS3 is as badly designed and failure-prone as the 360.
    A better and simpler title, that actually does favors to an informative article would have been (like someone already suggested) "Why PS3 and 360 consoles drop dead". There, no presumed conclusions.

    4 - Lack of actual useful advice.
    "If you're a serious player, I'd recommend you change or upgrade your Xbox after a year."
    That's it? How about: How should I place my console so that the heat flows out better? Horizontal or vertical? How much free space surrounding it? How should I clean it to avoid the accumulation of dust without damaging it? Don't worry about repeating advice from user manuals or what not, in fact, this would have been the best opportunity to do so!

    5 - Selective finger pointing.
    "But the fact that both Microsoft and Sony have these heat-related problems suggests that the problem isn't only related to the manufacture of "shoddy machines" as Sony's David Reeves once put it."
    The article, despite giving all those details about what happens that makes a console break down, is in the end very apologetic about Microsoft's design mistakes with the 360. Oh, so the huge problems the 360 once had were not their fault? I get it. Not enough numbers, just mentioning Sony PR heads bragging about a 2/3% failure rate (an obvious lie on Sony's part) and David Reeves trolling about the 360 design. Nothing about the amount of complaints needed before MS "generously" extended the warrant or the influence of the public complaints about what REALLY was shoddy design at the time.

    It would have been OK that the author would really stick with the "no failure rates here" policy from start to finish, instead of throwing this 60/40 number in there that along with the rest of his writing, suggests the problem to be as common on the PS3 as on the 360. Which even today, isn't.
    It really reads like propaganda disguised as a technical article at times.
    Edited by 8 at 31/08/09 @ 17:39

  • Retroid #222 2 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll

    I'll address these point for point. Bear in mind that I'm not affiliated with EG other than I've been here a while and haven't gone postal, that's pretty much why I have [Mod] next to my name, incase anyone thinks differently.

    1) The article didn't make any claims for the figures the repairshop gave as being representative, and I agree it could've done with more numbers to be more authoratative. But again, such numbers were being given with the proviso that they're just that: one shop. Not overall, not how things are happening with other shops, not as a representative slice.

    2) No, it's simply talking about a heat expansion / contraction issue and talking about it as a wider issue for modern consoles. It's this issue he's talking about here, not the BR issue. I'd like to know more myself about that too. Infra-red piccies are always good, so I would've liked to have seen those :) And no-one would disagree that the heat system in the PS3 is better thought-out and designed than the solution in the 360.

    3) I really, really cannot see how anyone can read the title like that. We all know consoles *do* die, and this says they're from the same fundamental reason: expansion, contraction breaking solder. That's entirely true. It doesn't suggest that the PS3 is as prone to it as the 360 ever was. It does simply state that the consoles which *do* die, die for that some reason.

    4) If there's practical advice to be given, I agree, it should've been given. The suggestion (not by the author of the article) to replace a console once a year is clearly bollocks.

    5) MS have acknowledged the problem and (after pressure, and probably fear of being really kicked up the arse in the courts) covered most people's expenses. I don't think anyone ever thought they did it because they're lovely. A bit like Mom's Robot Company in Futurama ;) The article is about heat causing expansion and contraction and breaking lines. BOTH CONSOLES CAN SUFFER FROM THAT. THAT IS WHAT THE ARTICLE IS ABOUT. It's just a fact, a problem with running such high-temperature components in consumer-sized equiptment. One machine clearly did it very badly to start off with, and it's known that the other format, for all its efforts with its heat-exhaust, can still have faults caused by it.

    The 60/40 split is mentioned as happening *in this particular shop*. It mentions that MS fix the vast majority of the problems for free under warranty, yet still says the 360 outnumbers the PS3s in for repair about from odd times. That in itself says that there's a far bigger problem with the 360s.

  • el_pollo_diablo #223 2 years ago

    @digitalfoundry< br />
    Just wanted to say that I thought this was an excellent article.
    Please give us more interviews with people on the peripheries, like these guys.

    Oh, and I keep my PS3 'upended' as I figure it cools faster - do you (or does anyone else) know if this is likely to make any difference?

  • Calgon #224 2 years ago

    LOL @ Greybeard getting powned by Psychotext... honestly though thats what annoys me most regarding PS3 fanboy attitudes. There are PS3 fanboys all over the net doing this all the time "the problem is still there, nothing's changed, 360s will all break within a year... might aswell buy a PS3 then heh? ;)" and what proof they do show is either none existant or thin on the ground(half of which could be unverified Jaspers... i.e. assuming it was a jasper because "it was new" or even posts from PS3 trolls themselves)... i.e. they've no right even pretending they've seen circumstancial evidence. Especially since there are people who do pay close attention to it and can see a vast improvement already.

    Just someone taking a thermal imaging camera and comparing a launch 360 to a Jasper 360 would stop people like Greybeard trying to hold onto the RROD as an excuse other people shouldn't get one. This is just to satisfy these people still questioning it however, because most of us understand with process shrinks less power consumption and less heat are some of the biggest benifits you gain.

    The problem was all to do with heat(the GPU being the component that needed resoldering most) in the first place that much has been very consistent throughout the RROD "timeline" ;). There's been process shrinks reducing the amount of heat made by the chips and there's been changes to the 360 cooling itself... how can't it be pretty close to PS3 levels at the point they've reached now? It wouldn't make sense if it wasn't(they use the same solder!).

    Edit: Just to say I agree the article never looked to be saying PS3s failure rates themselves were the same as 360, it says that of the consoles they get sent to them for repair they see similar amounts of the same main problem in both machines. This to me, says the PS3 cooling must be considerably better than 360s was.

    Something to remember about the figures is that they are mostly out of warranty repairs meaning the 360 consoles will be over 3 years old more often than not.
    Edited by 4 at 31/08/09 @ 21:36

  • Pimpbaa #225 2 years ago

    "Additionally, the GPU itself has remained on the 90nm fabrication process right up until the release of the new PS3 Slim, so assuming the problem is GPU-centric, it could potentially affect all the current "fat" models."

    This is outright lies. The current 80gb PS3s have 65nm GPUs.

  • Retroid #226 2 years ago

    "This is outright lies. The current 80gb PS3s have 65nm GPUs."

    So it's OUTRIGHT LIES and not a mistake? Hmmm.

  • Pimpbaa #227 2 years ago

    "So it's OUTRIGHT LIES and not a mistake? Hmmm. "

    Lie, mistake, it's still misleading people who own a more recently manufactured PS3 to think that it is going to fail.

  • Retroid #228 2 years ago

    I don't think *anyone* thinks a PS3 is going to fail because it might have a 90nm GPU.

    Besides, mistakes and lies have vastly different intents.

  • Fido128 #229 2 years ago

    HILARIOUS story: I've just lost two Xbox 360s in the last hour and a half to RROD (having a bought a spare for emergencies). Wish I was kidding. :/ The second was a console "refurbished" by Microsoft, who apparently didn't test it much.

    I love my 360, and use it almost daily, so I guess my constant use took its toll. And now I wait for the arrival of two UPS boxes. Just praying I get them back in time for the new L4D content, though I'm not hopeful. :o|

  • Calgon #230 2 years ago

    Pimpbaa well why not be constructive and inform them of when the 65nm GPUs were introduced(unless you're saying all 80GB PS3s will be 65nm? Im sure they will edit it if you have a reliable source and they spot it before it goes off the front page), you do realise there will still be far more "fat" PS3s that are 90nm dont you? So its not really missleading to the majority of them.
    Edited by 2 at 31/08/09 @ 21:52

  • Pimpbaa #231 2 years ago

    "Pimpbaa well why not be constructive and inform them of when the 65nm GPUs were introduced(Im sure they will edit it if you have a reliable source and they spot it before it goes off the front page), you do realise there will still be far more "fat" PS3s that are 90nm dont you? So its not really missleading to the majority of them."

    Yes there are far more PS3s with 90nm RSXs in them. But that doesn't change the fact that they are misleading people into thinking that anyone who bought a PS3 in the past year still has a potentially failure prone 90nm RSX in it. Anyway PS3s with a 65nm RSX started coming out in August of last year.

    http://www.ed epot.com/playstation3.html
    Edited by 1 at 31/08/09 @ 22:03

  • SeesThroughAll #232 2 years ago

    @ Retroid:

    Thank you for taking your time to provide me/us with your counter-arguments instead of labelling people as "SDF". For the most part, I'm glad we agree, where we do, anyway.

    My issue with the lack of advice really is that the engineer didn't really give us any insightful advice about how to extend the lifetime of our consoles. I'm aware that this was not direct advice from the blog author. A shame this was not asked "while they were at it" anyway. But I guess it would have been bad for the interviewee's business... ;)

    As for how certain wording is chosen, well, I still think that there is always an intent to achieve lots of page hits. Not saying this is necessarily a bad thing at all, just that this is the reality of "teh internetz". This article already was quoted in a bunch of other blogs, so mission accomplished, I suppose.

    I definitely concede I read a bit too much into some of the comments in the article, but still, the first impression is the strongest, as they say, and I'm sure whoever writes a blog knows that.
    Edited by 4 at 31/08/09 @ 23:52

  • rotmm #233 2 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll, "I definitely concede I may have read a bit too much into some of the comments in the article, but still, the first impression is the strongest, as they say, and I'm sure whoever writes a blog knows that."

    I suppose you chose your username with an eye on the ironic, but I guess that ReadSomethingTakeAStanceAndThenFitTheWordsInArticlesToMyBias edAndJadedViewpoint is something of a mouthful. Possibly it would even exceed the max characters allowed for a username.

    Users here such as you and GreyBeard are pretty hardcore fanboys (though far more elegant than the likes of donnie and Nick1975) so it only makes sense that you'll become concerned or angered when an article or a situation doesn't fit your view of the world. That said, there is nothing in the article that suggests the YLOD (or whatever) situation is anywhere near as bad as the RROD issue. So as it isn't there. what's to be upset about?

  • Retroid #234 2 years ago

    @SeesThroughAll: No prob, but I'm basically 'just another EGer' when it comes down to it. Just one with godlike powers ;)

    (BTW - I didn't edit that last comment of yours, just so you know)

  • SeesThroughAll #235 2 years ago

    @ Retroid: I did that myself, no worries.

    PS: I've seen you here since before you had that [Mod] sign there, so I know you're not part of the staff...
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/09 @ 01:29

  • gammonbanter #236 2 years ago

    Best DF article yet!
    I hoover the vents on my ps3 regularly - this must help! Would like to open up the mother (warrenty expired long time ago) and have a good clean out!

  • muscleblade #237 2 years ago

    All i can say is for all the hours of great fun my 360 has given me i dont have a problem having a an extra console in case something go wrong. I could wait 2 weeks to get the repaired one back but i rather spend the extra money ( im not rich but its worth it to me). System failure problem solved.

  • Retroid #238 2 years ago

    I see posts trying for a sensible discussion have been voted down.

    *sigh*

  • Gecks #239 2 years ago

    it does seem very strange that there the interviewer didn't pass comment, or do an after-the-fact editorial on the "60/40" thing as - anecdotally - the situation seems very different. literally everyone i know with a 360 has had it RROD, generally after about a year of use. we get them replaced within a week or so so it's not a deal-breaker, but it is what it is.

    (i don't have a PS3 or any real interest in buying one right now)

  • guernican #240 2 years ago

    To anyone with PS3 death, I'd strongly advise kicking up a real fuss with Sony's Careline. I've had two consoles free of charge, both replaced well out of warranty, simply because I called, then called back, and tried the same argument over and over with different guys. I bought this. It broke. The standard of your hardware is poor, and without a console I can't buy your expensive games and support your loss-leading business model.

    It didn't always work straight away, but it's worked eventually.

  • guernican #241 2 years ago

    "I could wait 2 weeks to get the repaired one back but i rather spend the extra money"

    How very Brave New World of you.

  • guernican #242 2 years ago

    For those that live in the UK, Game will give you £180 for a 60Gb console if you're exchanging it for a new Slim. So that's a brand new box for £70, effectively.

    Calgon, your post is a perfect example of why one shouldn't type when one's angry.

  • carlitoswagon #243 2 years ago


    Accidently deleted my MS rant about currently having 2 x 360's and can't be fucked retyping it! Same story as everyone else anyway.

    Love 360 gaming but wish I could take a massive shit on someone connected with the debacle! I know it's not civilised and we don't live in a perfect world but it would make me feel better.

  • muscleblade #244 2 years ago

    This comment section sure has some incredibly long posts. I dont get why this system failure is such a big deal to so many people.
    I mean how long does a cell phone last ( they are just as expensive or even more expesive if you want a decent model).
    None of my cellphones has lasted more than a couple of years. My 2 500£ HD television just broke 2 months after the warranty expired btw. That did upset me.

    The article did take the only issue with the 360 that the PS3 fanboys have been all over and make it look even worse of an issue for the PS3 with the one year warranty etc. Funny stuff.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/09 @ 13:42

  • bloke #245 2 years ago

    Only just got to read this - great piece Richard.

  • M_of_the_sys #246 2 years ago

    Pot. Kettle. blah blah blah.

  • Retroid #247 2 years ago

    Good grief.

  • Retroid #248 2 years ago

    I advise everyone to remember there is another person sitting at that other keyboard typing away, and it's better to engage and discuss rather than to slag people off.

  • SeesThroughAll #249 2 years ago

    I'm deleting my posts since I derived off topic. I think it's the best.

    Agreed?

    EDIT: Just read that last response. Fair enough, to each their own. You hate Sony as a greedy corporation, and as a consumer, you have every right to. I have a similar hatred for MS, to the point of being overly suspicious, and I do admit this. And, to keep in mind, this doesn't mean that either of us loves the other brand. Let's agree to disagree there, ok? Enough with the trolling already. Goes for me too.
    Edited by 2 at 01/09/09 @ 18:09

  • Calgon #250 2 years ago

    Agreed.

  • Retroid #251 2 years ago

    \o/

  • GreyBeard #252 2 years ago

    @Psychotext

    Yep I was referring to Falcons mainly. I wouldn't expect to hear much about Jaspers as they only started appearing at retail around November last year (as I noted in my timeline) and so with at most 10 months "in the wild" I wouldn't expect to read about many fails.

    Been busy today, no time to post much.

  • sfp_noodle #253 2 years ago

    ok, im speaking from personal experience before i get bashed. and i own both a ps3 and 360 before fanboys goes into rage mode.i bought my first 360 in january 2007. it died a year and a half later. i got it repaired for free sure, but knew it wudnt last long given the failure rates for launch models (mines was manufactured in 2006). so i sold my refurb and bought an elite with a falcon chipset. how happy i was! no RROD fopr me woo! wrong :( my elite died after a year with the e74 error. again, i sold it on after being repaired because it wud have most likely died again and its warenty was going to expire within 6 months. now i have a new jasper model which was manufactured in may 2009. feels encouraging to know i have a new 3 year warranty, but look at the stats. ive bought 3 360 consoles in 2 and a half years. im sure im not the only one who has had to resort to selling/throwing out old refurbs in favour of new ones because of their sheer lack of reliability. i have a launch day 60gb ps3 which i admit, is only used for exclusive gaming and blu rays but it works a treat and i have NEVER had an issue with it. i may decide to trade it in soon as i have no ps2 games i want to play anymore in favour of a slimline model with new warranty, but having said that, i dont feel i really need to. im sick of supporting microsoft. if my jasper model dies (we all know they will fail at some point) i will get it repaired and get rid of it completely. if it wasnt for gears of war, i wudnt even own one. to this day, tht game and its sequal remain the only reason for me to own the machine.
    Edited by 2 at 02/09/09 @ 10:53

  • IneptPercy #254 2 years ago

    I will say that I have had a release 360 and it died, the replacement has been fine. If this one dies I am not going to replace it with a 360 or PS3.

    It does seem the problem is too much power in such a small box in both cases, I know more people with broken 360's than PS3's but in all cases the 360 was the 'main' console with the PS3 being for exclusives and the ocasional blu-ray, with the roles reversed would the 360 still be alive and the PS3 dead? who knows.

    It does seem both have poor hardware, glad I jumped ship to PC gaming.

  • MrJ1m #255 2 years ago

    Problem seems to be that Microsoft and Sony are forced to use unleaded solder which suffers and degrades with the heat the machines generate. This is clearly an issue going forwards for both companies, as leaded solder is banned in mass produced electronics.

    Most manufacturers want their products to break after the warranty expires, that way consumers buy another one or have to have an expensive non-warranty repair. I bought a 2nd 360 when my launch version packed up.

    I've found that installing 360 games to HDD means the console feels cooler when running and is much quieter, but i'm sure that we all knew that already.

  • toa_boa #256 2 years ago

    Or you all might refer to a very large sampling as made by SquareTrade:

    [link url=http://www.squaretrade.com/ht m/pdf/SquareTrade_Xbox360_PS3_Wii_Reliability_0809.pdf ]http://ww w.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/Squar...[/link]

  • Gecks #257 2 years ago

    @sfp_noodle
    to quote you from another post in your history
    "i own a 360, im jus glad i didnt pay for it myself after reading this tosh"

    which invalidates your argument about buying so many 360s, somewhat. and i'm not sure why anyone would sell their refurbished 360s as my friends and i all received new consoles, with manufacture dates a few days previous to sending. by selling your 'refurb' and buying again you are just playing into microsoft's hands with no benefit to yourself.
    Edited by 1 at 02/09/09 @ 17:11

  • Boe_roundhall.org #258 2 years ago

    The x-clamp fix does work, the G.P.U. is pinned to the motherboard with bolts, through the metal case into the heatsink, in place of the loose x-clamps which in older consoles, that overheat, prevents the G.P.U. from springing loose at all and so fixes that hardware problem. The x-clamps work okay in the newer consoles for some other reason, perhaps because the other models use more electricity they produce more heat.

  • ChadSexington #259 2 years ago

    I must admit that I didn't really find this article had much of a point -- there just wasn't enough analysis or study done into the faults of the two consoles.

  • PC-Tech #260 2 years ago

    makeamazing: "its kinda like lets just ask him some stuff and report it."

    That is called journalism - you report the facts as they are presented to you!

    Would you have preferred him to lie?

  • Calgon #261 2 years ago

    toa_boa that data is just taken from people who reported faults that have an extended cover plan with them, what they don't say is how they selected that 1600 and what the split is between the number of 360s, PS3s and Wiis they cover. In other words if there's a significantly larger percentage of 360s that have the cover plan with them compared to the other two and they selected the 1600 at random then thats not the same as selecting equal amounts of 360s, PS3s and Wiis as one percentage may be more accurate than the other.

    Interesting that they confirm they see a clear improvement with the introduction of Jasper already(even when it was mix between falcons and jaspers in stores at the time they were bought), as you can see from the graph there is a steep decline shown.
    Edited by 1 at 03/09/09 @ 12:51

  • toa_boa #262 2 years ago

    @Calgon

    Let's assume that they did select the 16.000 (not 1.600) samples for the report in the most halfassed way possible, given the data they have at their disposition: Select random 16.000 consoles from our list, categorize pr. console and pr. failure not failure.

    Given that you don't need more than (if I recall correctly) around 1.200 samples from any population to get with a few percentage certainty on a given dimension, it's highly unlikely that any of the three consoles got selected to a degree of less 1.200 samples. Providing us with a high degree of certainty that the sample is statistically valid within the limit provided of the original dataset, virtually removing any gribes about ratios etc.

    Not this leaves us, I belive, with the question of the validity of the population in the first place. Given that we don't know square (:-)) about SquareTrade's customers habits etc. we'll leave it up to everyone for himself to find his or hers excuse for believing that SquareTrade's still is invalid somehow.

    I my self find that the universe tend to be uniform and given enough data, any outliers tend to be smoothed out. So from my point of view the SquareTrade report provides a statisfying and somewhat statictically valid insight into the failure rations of at least the machines in SquareTrades care. Representational of the entire console base, some might can "probably", but each to his or her's own.

  • Calgon #263 2 years ago

    @toa_boa. No, I didn't say I was dismissing it completely but clearly you understand that you are likely to get more accurate results from the set that has a greater amount of reports, yes? That was the only point I was making and it still stands but we still dont know how they did it.

    I do however think it looks like they put alot of thought into it and there's some usefull information there, infact some of it is encouraging for the 360.

    a) The 23.7% as a total(not all of them are RRODs either) is alot more acceptable than 50% or even the 30% given elsewhere(plus the data is perhaps more reliable in that none of the reports will be from trolls/petty fanboys that you get on gaming sites, which you simply cannot rule out with some of the other sources' figures).

    b) It suggests with the RROD in check the 360s reliabilty will be pretty much the same as the PS3s.

    c) Did you read the RROD graph and summary of the falcon and jasper introductions?

    I'd agree with their assertion that "consumers purchasing Xbox 360s in Q4 2007 bought a mix of Falcons and original models" and "In Q4 2008, Jasper units started arriving, although we believe units purchased during this period continued to be a mix of Falcon and Jasper models.". It looks alot more positive on the jasper situation(although more time is needed) which is reflected in their summary.

    "Even with this mix, we projected the 1-year failure rate to drop below 4%. Furthermore, when looking at over 500 units purchased in 2009, fewer than 1% of customers have reported a RROD error as of Aug 2009."

  • toa_boa #264 2 years ago

    @ Calgon

    Sure you get better results. But given that SquareTrade's population most likelyis large (most certainly above 20.000), normal statistically theory would state, that you would need to collect around 4.000 samples to be have 99% confidence in an error level of -+2%.

    But nevermind that, we're obviously on the same page here, and both find SquareTrade's report a tantalizing view what so far has been anecdotal territory :-)

  • PC-Tech #265 2 years ago

    My two-pence worth as a PC & console repair specialist:

    From my own experience, and for the most part, I agree with Mr Thickbroom’s comments in the article. The exception being that, for me, the jury is still out on the degree of board warping/flexing being at the root of the issue. Personally, I am inclined more toward lateral movement of the board/components as a result of thermal expansion and contraction.

    Generally speaking, it is usually power cycles that kill electronic components and not the length of time that they are switched on. Components heat up when turned on and cool down when turned off. Ergo, they expand and contract - simple physics!
    This expansion and contraction causes stress to both the component and its electrical connections (solder joints) eventually leading to a failure of one or the other.

    We know that both the 360 & PS3 are compact units containing high power components generating an astounding amount of heat. Add to the mix cold (lead free) solder joints on BGA packages and you have a recipe for recall disaster! See here a full explanation [link url=http://www.manncorp.com/specialty-soldering-equipment/e xpert_04.6x_xbox_repair_station/Xbox%20360%20Repair_092408.p df
    ]http://ww w.manncorp.com/specialty-solder...[/link]

    Aside from the black looks your eco friends would give you, leaving your console permanently switched on is not a viable solution. The increase in dust accumulated inside would, over time, increase internal temperatures and eventually lead to overheating issues.

    So what is the solution?

    As pointed out in the above link, cold solder joints are the greatest factor in premature unit failure. Interestingly, cold solder joints have a greater electrical resistance and therefore a greater propensity for heat generation. The only proper solution is to reflow the faulty component(s). Thus repairing the broken solder joints and in most cases improving upon the quality of the original connections.

    The heat issue still remains, unless upgraded cooling fans are installed such as those made by Talismoon, but the improved solder joints alone will give a longer lasting unit than it did originally!

    Semantics aside, Mr Thickbroom has it right. And on the point of does the issue affect Microsoft more than Sony, consider this: in July 2009 there were almost twice as many Xbox 360’s in UK homes as PS3’s (3.9 million 360’s against 2.2 million PS3’s – source [link url=http://www.mcvuk.com).]http://www.mcvuk.com).[/lin k] If the 60/40 split is correct, which I believe is about right, what does that say about the failure rate of the PS3?!

    Come on Mr Sony, MS has fessed up and done the right thing. Isn’t it time you did the same so that your customers can take their collective heads out of the proverbial sand!

  • Calgon #266 2 years ago

    That Mancorp document was pretty interesting, it makes alot of sense really.

    So basically they just needed to get the temparatures and timings more pricise for each chip in the initial manufacturing?(rather than everything on the board sharing the same profile) Plus not being able to tell what a good lead free solder join should look like so well(compared to what they were familiar with) can't help either, if they could even see them in the first place(which they can't without the right equipment).

    Who'd have thought at the time though, something as simple as being forced to use a different type of solder would cause so many problems?

    What date was it specifically that the lead free law came into effect? It might explain why it affected MS so badly compared to the rest, i.e. less time for them and their manufacturing partners to adjust to the new materials, which they might not have accounted for in the rush for launch.
    Edited by 2 at 03/09/09 @ 19:10

  • PC-Tech #267 2 years ago

    RoHS Directive applied from 1st April 2006, As MS launched the 360 in November 05 it's conceivable that the very early consoles used lead-tin solder, which may explain the comment in the article regarding earlier consoles being more robust. Just a thought!

  • Bander #268 2 years ago

    Bazfrag:"""people use ps3 for mainly for BR which puts less stress on the machine."

    In your opinion.

    When i was looking into getting the hd-dvd add on, (dodged a bullet there!) i remember reports that when in use, it was the only thing at the time that used nearly all the 360 cpu power. More than running a complex game would. I would imagine br playback is also quite taxing."

    BR playback is less taxing. The PS3 doesn't need as much electricity for playing Blu-rays as it does for gaming, meaning that it'll run cooler.

    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/ar ticles/digitalfoundry-ps3slim-hardware-test-article?page=2
    ]    http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/digita...[/link]

    I remember the stories about the 360's HD-DVD playback software using all six CPU threads. The point of doing this was to spread the task of decompression across the CPU. None of the cores would be running at 100%, and so it wouldn't be running hot. Playing 1080p video on a 360 tends not to make the fans spin fast.
    Edited by 1 at 03/09/09 @ 20:07

  • Alkeno #269 2 years ago

    I know no one is reading this thread by now, but still...

    We have some good numbers!!!! Say thanks to IGN :-)
    http://xb ox360.ign.com/articles/102/1021...

    Edit: You mad gamers, still arguing about this! You even reached the Square Trade numbers first... awesome :-D
    Edited by 1 at 03/09/09 @ 20:30

  • canuter #270 2 years ago

    This article is great. Thank you EG for revealing the truth: this is the crappiest console generation in terms of reliability. I doubt any Xbox 360 or PS3 bought today will still be working by 2015.

  • ueue #271 2 years ago

    The hardware of PS3 multiplies the cost at first by the cooling mechanism. It is different from 360. Eurogamer seems to want also to support Microsoft.

    launch

    CECH-2000

  • mthomo #272 2 years ago

    The issue in Australia at least seems to be the lack of ability in SONY's service centre to repair the failed PS3s. I have had 3 failures in 2 months, others are on their 6th.

    EG - I am the OP here: http://fo rums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-rep...