Hackers leave PS3 security in tatters

By Richard Leadbetter Published 3 January, 2011

Linux returns and widespread piracy could follow.

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PlayStation 3's internal security scheme is a shambles, with all of its major anti-piracy features failing abysmally. The system is so vulnerable that hackers now have the exact same privileges as Sony in deciding what code can run on the console.

So says the self-styled "Fail0verflow" team, hackers with a successful track record in opening up closed devices such as the Nintendo Wii for running homebrew code and – of course – perennial favourite, Linux. Yes, despite the removal of OtherOS, Linux is coming back to PS3.

Fail0verflow's comments, presented at the 27th Chaos Communication Conference (27c3) might seem somewhat at odds with reality. PlayStation 3 launched in NTSC territories in November 2006 and yet the first widespread piracy only kicked in this summer with the release of PSJailbreak.

IBM's Cell Broadband Engine has been widely praised for its tough on-die security features which ensure that none of the essential decryption keys ever leave the main CPU, and so can't be accessed via RAM dumps. The protection has certainly lasted longer than that of the Wii and Xbox 360, both of which have been running pirate games for years now.

Fail0verflow's explanation? Hackers want to run their own code on the hardware they buy and PS3 allowed them to do that from day one. Only when the Linux-stripped PS3 Slim appeared – which they say can run the OS just as well at the older model – and when OtherOS was removed from the "fat" console, were the hackers suitably motivated to expose the security shortcomings of the system.

The team also believe that piracy is a consequential effect of such hacks, and that the PS3 remained secure for as long as it did simply because hackers weren't interested in opening up a system that was already open enough, with Linux implementations supported vigorously at launch by the platform holder.

table3

Fail0ver's presentation at 27c3 makes the case that hackers open a platform and pirates exploit their work. They say that PS3's OtherOS staved off interest in hacking it, postponing piracy for years. They reckon that PS3 security was only attacked when OtherOS was removed, and piracy followed.

Across a 45-minute presentation, the team revealed the methodology that made the on-die security an irrelevance and proved beyond doubt that the Hypervisor tech – the CPU guardian that is supposed to stop unauthorised code running – was almost completely pointless.

According to the Fail0verflow team, the PS3's architecture appears to allow the execution of rogue "unsigned" code with only the minimum of effort required from a determined hacker – which seems to explain in part how the PSJailbreak exploit was able to run pirate games even though the Hypervisor was not touched at all.

Based on their presentation, it looks as though the team has not cracked the Hypervisor even with the new hack, but their contention is that its application is an irrelevance anyway. Even specific code that Sony revokes and bans from use within the PS3 isn't actually being checked when it is run, so after the Hypervisor's cursory check, rogue code can be patched back in and run as per normal.

However, the Fail0verflow team's work goes way beyond this traditional style of hacking. They have released the technique by which any kind of unauthorised code can be run on any PS3. Every PS3 executable file is encrypted, or signed, using private ciphers only available (in theory) to Sony itself. It has long been established that brute-forcing the keys would take hundreds of thousands of computers hundreds of thousands of years to complete.

However, despite this mathematical reality, Fail0verflow are now in possession of all of the encryption keys Sony uses. They can create DLC-style packages that will run on any PlayStation 3, and yes, they can create their own custom firmware upgrades. Their stated aim is to produce their own firmware update that boots directly into Linux on any PS3, but the methodology allows for any kind of custom firmware to be produced – and we all know what that means.

So how did Fail0verflow get the keys so quickly? Well, in creating the encrypted files, an important element of the mathematical formula is the use of a random number. The PS3 encryption scheme uses just a single random number that never varies between each signed file, while the proper way of carrying out the signing process is to use a different random number every time a file is signed. Armed with just two signatures, it is possible to mathematically reconstruct the encryption key thanks to this constant variable. In theory, it's as simple as that. In practice, some simple equation work is required.

equation1
equation2

Fairly simple mathematics brings about the ability for anyone to encrypt and sign PS3 software – something that up until now only Sony has been capable of doing. These slides from Fail0verflow's 27c3 presentation show just how simple it is.

There are many different keys used by Sony – keys for game code, firmware components, and the isolated SPU decryption system, for example. All of them have been encrypted with the same random number faux pas, meaning that all of them can be reversed. In a stroke, hackers now have the exact same privilege level for running code as Sony itself, and this encompasses all file-types the console uses.

It's a monumental error made by the platform holder that has serious repercussions for the future of the PlayStation 3. Hardware hacks like flashed Xbox 360 DVD drives and modchipped Wiis seem to introduce an inherent limitation that stops a majority of devices from being modified: maybe people just don't have the skill or the willingness to toss away their warranties. But a full software hack like this one, compatible with all machines currently on the market, can spread like wildfire.

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Comments (227) Latest comment 1 year ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • tossetaz #1 1 year ago

    How on earth can Sony be so dumb that they use the same salt for every signature? That's hilarious!
    Edited by tossetaz at 03/01/11 @ 14:15

  • mumblyjoe #2 1 year ago

    They can talk about linux and homebrew all they want, we all know what this will get mostly used for piracy.

  • Lunastra78 #3 1 year ago

    Fail0verflow - your discreet adult diaper of choice™

  • Segnit #4 1 year ago

    Wow. Tough luck Sony!

  • Redh3lix #5 1 year ago

    Gotta wonder what these hackers do for a living tbh, if at all. Gotta hand it to them, they're a clever bunch.

  • mkreku #6 1 year ago

    It's been four years? That must be a new record for unbroken consoles, surely?

  • Bagpuss #7 1 year ago

    Maybe i'd be more excited about this were it not for the fact the console only has a dozen or so decent games anyway, which really doesnt make it worthwhile to buy in the first place..

    Anyway, this is still good news, as im sure it will make Sony start thinking more seriously about PS4, now they have lost control of PS3....

  • chasejamie #8 1 year ago

    I presume I can still carry on as usual, ignoring all this and play the normal games I buy with money?

  • Dolly #9 1 year ago

    As a gaming fan, this actually makes me really depressed :(
    99% of console owners probably don't even know what the word homebrew means (I'm not knocking that itself), they will just think of it as the 'new' r4 card etc = free games for them and their kids. Bad times really.

  • ZizouFC #10 1 year ago

    Well done now you can do on your PS3 what you could always do on your PC.

    Bravo.

    Oh and you also get to play PS3 games for free...

    I'll keep paying for mine, thanks.

  • dadrester #11 1 year ago

    modchipped Wiis? all you need is an SD card, and a spare 10 mins.

  • Bohdy #12 1 year ago

    >> Sony should be applauded for having their security last this long.

    As the article says, the only reason the security (which is now shown to be fundamentally broken) has lasted this long is because of Sony's decision to support OtherOS out of the box, which IS in fact worth applauding. However the lamentable decision to cut this support is where everyone should stop applauding. Sony dug their own grave with this one.

    Interestingly, the Xbox 360, while cracked for piracy long ago, is still not able to be used to run homebrew because the code signing security mechanisms are legitimately more robust than Sony's, a fact admitted by these same hackers.

  • Bibbo #13 1 year ago

    Well, atleast the PSN+ Subscribers will be getting their moneys worth with all the automatic firmware updates that are sure to follow.

  • Segnit #14 1 year ago

    Come to think of it, It always annoyed me how PS3 was just region 2 DVD player. If this fixes it then that's awesome.

    I still feel sorry for Sony though. I guess the biggest problem will be for online games. I don't know if this will introduce rampant cheating.

    But I personally don't much care about online multiplayer so that won't effect me much, if at all.

  • chris_ace #15 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 11:55:13 13-12-2011

  • cardigait #16 1 year ago

    hell, now they'll sell even more ps3

  • ChocNut #17 1 year ago

    Justify it however you want hackers - the truth is you've destroyed something valuable for nothing other than vanity. Hope you're proud.

  • DrStrangelove #18 1 year ago

    I bet there's a huge party at the US Air Force Research Lab. Now they can get their 2,000 PS3s out of the cellar again.

  • Farzlepot #19 1 year ago

    I have to question this hacker dude's suggestion that the PS3 has avoided piracy for so long because it could run Linux, and that hackers only bothered targetting it when this ability was cut off.

    For one thing, that's a heck of a lot of effort to run Linux on a machine, when machines already exist that can quite easily accomplish that without any hacking required (i.e. PCs). Why do they so desperately want to run Linux on their PS3s? Can the PS3 accomplish Linuxy things that the PC can't? Is my Linux box missing some kind of magical spark that PS3s have?

    For another thing, home consoles are now so similar to PCs that I don't even really see a huge amount of homebrew demand for them. Both the Xbox 360 and the PS3 are, at their core, simply stripped-down PCs. Unlike consoles of old which had their own unique quirks and abilities that home PCs have only really been able to properly emulate in the last few years (and even now, some are struggling - try and find a decent Saturn emulator, for example), modern consoles don't seem quite as appealing for that sort of bedroom coder. The game engines in use are largely cross-platform, and indeed the PC gamers of the world are complaining that console-led development is holding their own medium back.

    I just don't see a viable reason to open up a PS3 beyond piracy. Unless I'm missing something here? Can someone explain to me why I might want to put Linux on my PlayStation? Or why I would be better off coding a homebrew game for the PlayStation instead of the PC? This is a genuine question! I don't understand the logic behind it at all!
    Edited by Farzlepot at 03/01/11 @ 14:57

  • Dizzy #20 1 year ago

    Then again... look at the bright side. Kinect will run on the PS3 in a few weeks.

    >then playing an eternal game of cat and mouse with the manufacturer when they want to play a new release

    Not sure if you read the article.
    Edited by Dizzy at 03/01/11 @ 14:52

  • Segnit #21 1 year ago

    Come to think of it, I can use the damn thing as an HTPC! Woohoo! I wonder if I can play MKV files on it and multi region BluRay? If so I will finally get the entire Lost boxset for 100 € cheaper then I would get it here!

    The best news ever! Hell I might even go for a 2nd PS3 if this happens to be true! Super!

  • Widge #22 1 year ago

    Someone could write a media playing app that could do things like run .mkv files natively. That would be a benefit.

    Most people want free games though.

  • mazzl #23 1 year ago

    this will be interesting to watch.
    a full blown media center with wifi, blue ray and hd :)
    controllable via kinect under linux.... nice :)

    this does bode very bad for the lifespan of the ps3. if there is no way to stop this, the ps4 can not be more then 2 years off. sales of games on the ps3 will be effected by it, since hacking is no longer the case.. you just dump you're games on the hd and execute them...

    @Farzlepot
    for a lot of people it is a principle, if i buy a piece of hardware i own it. i should be able to run on it whatever is technically possible. not just that what the sencor allows me to run on it... all in free spirit etc. it's a valid argument that somthing you buy is you'rs to do with whatever you want. these hackers are not pro piracy, they are just against closed systems..


    Edited by mazzl at 03/01/11 @ 15:02

  • woodnotes #24 1 year ago

    The worst thing is that it appears that one won't need to physically mod one's PS3, just upgrade using a modified firmware on a USB stick. Could mean piracy at almost Dreamcast proportions.

    EDIT: Personally I'm looking forward to turning my PS3 in to an awesome media centre :)
    Edited by woodnotes at 03/01/11 @ 15:00

  • FairgroundTown #25 1 year ago

    To put in better words what cardigait already said... wasn't one of the reasons for the PS1 success that there was a huge library of free games because the CDs were copyable?

  • Widge #26 1 year ago

    I wonder if this was just about other os then the hackers would have found a solution that enabled that and nothing else. Would probably have been more noble, as it stands it sounds like scene mentality. Hack the products, get it on the net fastest.

  • Retroid #27 1 year ago

    I eagerly await a port of XBMC and multi-region DVD playback!

    I have no interest in pirating PS3 games whatsoever. I collect them, play them, enjoy them. They're mine. Pirated games aren't 'yours' in the same way at all.

  • Frankie_Lee #28 1 year ago

    A region free Blu-ray player would be awesome. And would probably shift a fair few units too ironically.

  • Retroid #29 1 year ago

    Widge: "I wonder if this was just about other os then the hackers would have found a solution that enabled that and nothing else."

    I may be wrong but finding a way to bypass *part* of the security to run only *one* flavour of thing would be FAR harder than making that security completely irrelevant.

  • Bonders99 #30 1 year ago

    Here's a thought. If the hackers are so more clever than sony and are only interested in the homebrew element, why don't they release hacks to do what they want with watertight security against commercial software piracy ? Now that would be kudos earning work. The most depressing part is looking at the cause and effect chart with every single piece of hardware having the same end result.

  • menage #31 1 year ago

    Meh. Surprised it lasted this long tbh.

    Only thing I would want is mkv indeed, not interested in pirated games and such, and linux is just a waste of time on a console.

  • SpookyTang #32 1 year ago

    Only thing i would want from all of this is ps2 emulation as i'm too fecking lazy to have it hooked up all the time. Games are cheap enough these days so pirated ps3 games are not for me. I come from the school that paid 45+ for Megadrive and SNES games and can buy most ps3 originals for under 20.

  • Bohdy #33 1 year ago

    >> Unless I'm missing something here? Can someone explain to me why I might want to put Linux on my PlayStation?

    PS3 happens to use a central processor known as the Cell. It's a pretty powerful multicore chip with 6 streaming processing units that excels at scientific computing applications (better/cheaper than the latest desktop CPU in many cases). You may have heard of Folding@Home which released a PS3 app to leverage the distributed power of PS3 consoles. There are a number of other organizations that have employed mass PS3s for supercomputing application.

    So I hope that answers your question. At least one reason to have Linux on your PS3 is to get access to a Cell chip short of paying IBM thousands of dollars for their Cell-based blade servers.

  • Evolution #34 1 year ago

    @Bonders99
    It's not their job to prevent piracy, and from what I understand the only kudos they are interested in are from people in the hacking scene.

  • Retroid #35 1 year ago

    The PS3's hardware is interesting and exotic in some ways in comparison with standard PCs. The Cell is of particular interest and I'm sure a lot of coders want to play with that.

  • HisDudness #36 1 year ago

    I just hope this doesn't inconvenience legitimate purchasers, but I won't hold my breath...
    If online gaming is compromised by small penis cheaters I am going to be fucking pissed.

    One feature which would be hillariously awesome though would be a PS3 Teamspeak programme to run in the background.

  • Stop-gap #37 1 year ago

    Is there anything stopping Sony verifying the checksum of firmware over PSN?
    If they can, do they then have the ability to ban or force-update machines? I've not heard of them doing so.
    I expect there to be a tedious number of firmware updates incoming either way.

  • CrumpledPaper #38 1 year ago

    Lessons I hope Sony takes from this for future platforms:

    1) Keep an open (but better secured) sandbox.

    2) Hire people who can follow best security practices in implementation of software. Cell had, conceptually, and in theory, a wonderfully secure architecture. But it's been let down completely by schoolboy errors on Sony's software side. If some simple mistakes hadn't been made things probably wouldn't be this bad and probably never would have been.

    _The Cell is of particular interest and I'm sure a lot of coders want to play with that._

    There wasn't a huge amount of interest when otherOS was available. Some academic interest, sure, but not a lot of hobbyist interest.
    Edited by CrumpledPaper at 03/01/11 @ 15:21

  • NorUraeus #39 1 year ago

    Not sure I fully buy the Linux argument for why hackers didnt bother before, the thing was that yes you could run Linux (and I did), but since the GPU wasnt available it cut down the usefulness a lot.

    As for Sony being stupid for not making sure to use a random key, that is true, but they are not alone. It was the same human error that allowed the allies to crack the communication of the nazis during WW2 :)

  • GreyBeard #40 1 year ago

    I believe the hackers are attempting to maintain their white-hat credentials by *NOT* looking for more keys than is neccessary to allow for the OS to be replaced. Which is to say they aren't looking for the game keys.

  • FutureDave #41 1 year ago

    I doubt very much this will have much affect on PS3 software sales. The majority of gamers are either paying customers who buy from sites like Amazon or high street stores, or casual gamers who know little about the piracy scene to find such wares. Hell, if something like this could spell doom, then PC gaming would have been dead 20 years ago.

  • Retroid #42 1 year ago

    Indeed, the original Xbox was very hackable and software sales were quite healthy on that.

  • byakuya83 #43 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 10:03:41 30-03-2012

  • Dizzy #44 1 year ago

    "Is there anything stopping Sony verifying the checksum of firmware over PSN? "

    They can try, but it would be easy to fool PSN with custom firmware.

  • medicineboy #45 1 year ago

    I just wish I understood enough of that to make a valuable and worthwhile comment...

  • Retroid #46 1 year ago

    CrumpledPaper: "_The Cell is of particular interest and I'm sure a lot of coders want to play with that._

    There wasn't a huge amount of interest when otherOS was available. Some academic interest, sure, but not a lot of hobbyist interest."

    I think a large part of that was how walled-off Linux was under OtherOS. No GPU acceleration, limited use of the SPUs. It was a challenge to get desktop apps running snappily on it, let alone anything else!

  • Retroid #47 1 year ago

    @medicineboy

    Doesn't stop most people on the internet ;)

  • coolbritannia #48 1 year ago

    Sony have never been any good at software, firmware etc, this just proves it.

  • Abscido #49 1 year ago

    Only thing i would want from all of this is ps2 emulation as i'm too fecking lazy to have it hooked up all the time.

    News broke about three weeks ago that an anonymous group had fully cracked PS2 emulation, via Jailbreak, and the software was released. It had nothing to do with this latest development though.

    As for hackers claiming the high moral ground - that's rubbish. At the end of the day, they decide that a lifestyle choice ("I'd like full access to my console as a hobby";) warrants putting people's jobs and livelihoods at risk. If they simply said 'We're a little anarchic, sorry", that'd be so much easier to digest.

  • Arwin #50 1 year ago

    The no GPU access was really annoying, I agree. Though attempts to open up the GPU in Linux, which were quickly stopped by Sony when they made progress back in FW 2.0 days, revealed that the GPU probably had access to main RAM to such an extent that it could compromise the system security already then. But it was a great shame not to be able to fool around with the Cell driving animation of traingles drawn by the RSX (GPU).

    If all this is true, it's quite a feat and a sad way to see the phenomenal no-piracy record come to an end at 4 years, 4x the previous records. At the same time, being able to run custom software on a PS3 to the fullest extent is also very cool and exciting - I just wish it wouldn't also have to lead to piracy.

  • Retroid #51 1 year ago

    @coolbritannia

    Actually Sony have done a good job updating the PS3's firmware. It's almost a different machine to the one I bought those years ago.

  • Retroid #52 1 year ago

    Arwin: "being able to run custom software on a PS3 to the fullest extent is also very cool and exciting - I just wish it wouldn't also have to lead to piracy."

    Completely agreed.

    I want to see what coders do with the hardware, but I hate the idea of games being ripped off and polluting online play with hacks :(

  • Ged42 #53 1 year ago

    Erm... when should we break the news to these guys, that hacking a PS3 isn't going to impress the girls.

  • ZizouFC #54 1 year ago

    The cons outweigh the pros imo.

  • Retroid #55 1 year ago

    @ZizouFC

    Agreed. Sadly.

    If homebrew could be enabled without piracy that'd be great but I can't see how that would realistically happen.

  • Zaiz #56 1 year ago

    I'm kinda surprised Sony forgot what the "random" part of "random number" is. Otherwise, a bunch of people who bought PS3s exclusively for computing power(ie the Airforce Lab) are happy again, and the functionality that they paid for has been returned.

    Too bad it was connected to piracy. But then again, piracy is unlikely to massively dent PS3 game sales. I imagine a company will release a "AAA" title that flops(because it sucks) and blame it on piracy. The usual.

  • mr2ange #57 1 year ago

    @Fightman

    Suck my balls, better still you pirating cunt, why dont you now go out and buy a ps3 and jizz all over your own face because you can pirate a 2.49 psn mini game....

    Oooh you're so cool! a 40 year old fat lazy cunt who still cant afford to buy his own games...

    Fucking hell guys? I get a -18 for telling someone that pirating is bad. Well fuck you all. You should go and learn some fucking ethics. We make games for you guys and you shit back in our mouthes. Well i hope that all you fucking get is call of duty 24 in a few years time and thats all you'll fucking get, you pathetic bunch of twats. What a bunch of cocks.

    What do you want to happen? All the hardware for every platform gets hacked within a short time? Well if it happens more frequently then people wont have all these good games because NO ONE, and i mean FUCKING no one will make any fucking money to fund the fucking things. You can go back to your dog shit farmville free CRAP and play that for the rest of your lives you useless fucking TWATS.
    Edited by mr2ange at 03/01/11 @ 19:23

  • jag10 #58 1 year ago

    it might not be all bad.

    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2En3SCxlJM
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2En3SCxlJM
    [/link]


  • the_sas_man #59 1 year ago

    I never understood it, but if I was Mr Sony / Mr Microsoft / Mr Nintendo I'd offer these boys a job working on the next console to try and make it hack proof.

    Surely the money offered could save millions in the long run.

  • des #60 1 year ago

    I said few months ago that removing Linux from older machines will paint a big glowing target on PS3 security,before that PS3 scene was literally non-existent,after that hackers got a clear goal.

  • mukki #61 1 year ago

    yup agree the possiblity of a media player to play MKVs and region free blue ray are almost more exciting than a piracy crap...
    possibly stupid question couldnt sony still ban player running hacks that is while on MP on psn?

  • Alestes #62 1 year ago

    Heh, very unfortunate for Sony.

    I modchipped my PS1 and PS2 so I could play imported games from the US (Chrono Cross and Suikoden III only to mention some). But considering the PS3 is regionfree I never seen the need for using any hack, and still don't.

    Not to mention that most publishers like Square-Enix are now smart enough to do international releases. Only Nintendo and Namco Bandai aren't, as they still haven't announced The Last Story, Xenoblade or the PS3 version of Tales of Vesperia for a non-japanese european release. They are the worst JRPG publishers in existance.

    Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if what Fail0verflow say is true, that it was the removal of OtherOS that put the fuse on fire. I always thought that was a very dumb move, just like the removal of PS2 BC. I just hope they don't remove the regionfree aspect of it too, that would truly suck.
    Edited by Alestes at 03/01/11 @ 16:10

  • GamesConnoisseur #63 1 year ago

    Hackers are just people, as long as the symbolic 'GATE' is apparently open as in the OtherOS and their much vaunted preferred Linux is available on PS3, then that platform is 'heavensent' and should not be targetted as the hated MS's systems are. Example, viruses, hacks etc on the PCs are so much more rampant than the Apple's systems despite MS much higher investments and efforts with the securities compared to Apple.

    Once Sony take off OtherOS due to some small hacks and misuses, the hackers-at-large gone up in their arms, they felt insulted that their beloved Linux is now forbidden on PS3. So the gloves comes off.

    I dont think its down to actual usages off PS3 and numbers of systems that had ran linux or such, its all down to the images and symbolic David and Goliath bully from Sony.

    I feel sorry for Sony but the proof is now this is ALL down to the Sony fans, the ONES who actually got PS3 and supported Sony with purchases of games, and such. WILL they TURN to the dark side of the pirated games and let the market share of games sold on PS3 FALLS and then eventually see the publishers support falls away as not getting as much retail profits?

    OR will the PS3 owners stand steadfast and ignore the evil lures of the free games?!

    ITS ALL up to you Sony fans and nothing that Xbots zealots or WiiFreaks, PCNerds or any other can effect any changes.

  • mr2ange #64 1 year ago

    @coolbritannia

    Sony are rubbish at firmware? - WTF?

    The ps3 has held out longer than ANY console ever before...? by an order of magnitude...

  • MRJOSH666 #65 1 year ago

    Excellent article

  • Big-Swiss #66 1 year ago

    am I the only one who thinks 4 years is great after studying that chart?

  • PlugMonkey #67 1 year ago

    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/random_numbe...

  • andijames #68 1 year ago

    Well i think in this particular cat vs mouse battle the cat has bashed the mouse over the head with a rolling pin and is now flicking through '101 great mouse recipes' book pondering what to do with the blighter!

    On a more serious note though this won't effect me as i never condone piracy or pirated games. The PS2 was heavily pirated through mod chips like infinity etc but still sold a bucketload and still sells a fair few to this day. I do think it will hasten Sony's plans to bring out the PS4 though maybe so a few announcements possibly this year on new hardware? We shall see!

  • BuddyChrist #69 1 year ago

    Hackers invented the pop tart.

    Toast?! I want to put something else in my toaster.....

  • des #70 1 year ago

    I'm sure that some people poked a little since Ps3 was launched,but lets look how it all went.For more than three full years system was secure,no hacks no nothing,dead hacking scene.
    And then Sony induced Linux fiasco starts,system partially cracked within weeks,after few months older firmware hacked and now after a year whole security goes down in flames.Coincidence,i don't think so...
    They can even get PSP and blu-ray AACS keys,that's how open it is.

  • photoboy #71 1 year ago

    I think Sony's best option at this point is to ask developers to not compress any of their data, so that they use as much of the Blu-Ray disc as possible. While this wont stop piracy, it might at least hamper it as pirates get sick of downloading 40GB files and run afoul of ISPs who throttle excessive bandwidth users...

  • dirtysteve #72 1 year ago

    Great article, was wary of trudging through tech detail, but this covered it well, as well as being fair and balanced coverage.

  • Widge #73 1 year ago

    Just going through A SITE and it seems that 1100 people were determined enough to grab all 20GB of Gran Turismo 5. If people want it, they'll go through the hoops.

    Sad thing is, its probably easier to buy the game. This is why I like Steam, who wants to faff around with Daemon Tools and jump through loads of patching hoops?

  • weebl #74 1 year ago

    Firstly, Linux support was removed to help protect Sony's and publishers' IP from piracy, so the introduction of this exploit on the basis that it isn't for piracy reasons but will allow piracy is a fallacy.

    Secondly, Kinect support on the PS3 anyone? Woooooooooo!

  • AOFanboi #75 1 year ago

    <em>I bet there's a huge party at the US Air Force Research Lab. Now they can get their 2,000 PS3s out of the cellar again.</em>

    I am sure they weren't stupid enough to upgrade to the firmware that removed the OtherOS feature. After all, their PS3s were never going to access the PSN anyway, so there was no need to update it.

  • scoobydooX64 #76 1 year ago

    Only reason PS3 been safe and secure for 4 years was,PS3 not been worthy of buying in comparison to XBOX 360 for first 3 years,so no one interesting in hack it.And now PS3 joins the piracy club we PC gamers no long need to hear that whining excuse form develops about PC SKUs" we don’t focus on PC because of the piracy".
    Edited by scoobydooX64 at 03/01/11 @ 17:00

  • Dizzy #77 1 year ago

    "I think Sony's best option at this point is to ask developers to not compress any of their data, so that they use as much of the Blu-Ray disc as possible. "

    Errrr???? When people upload the game disk they can still compress it later.

  • Farzlepot #78 1 year ago

    Personally I think the Sega Saturn's record is/was more impressive. Sure, you could chip them to run imports and such, but their copy protection systems still haven't been properly cracked to this day. Which is even more impressive when you think about how prevalent CD writers were back in those days.

  • DirectAim #79 1 year ago

    This is brilliant news! I doubt sales figures are going to be hit hard by this news but who knows. I remember the xbox days when I could insert a DVD, rip it to a 250gb HDD and watch anytime, this is what the PS3 should of been like :-) I am also looking forward to what hackers develop with this hack, this could bring so many brilliant features to the PS3, im thinking torrents, linux and N64 emulation!

  • Windypops #80 1 year ago

    Fantastic news for Sony. They've a chance of finishing first this generation now.

  • TheBard #81 1 year ago

    Yay! The best thing about the hacked Xbox 1 was the Xbox Media Center ... I hope now that a XMBC port for the PS3 is near.

  • Vemsie #82 1 year ago

    @DF_are_liars: I certainly pay for my media. They spent a lot of time and money to make something I like, so I reward them for doing it. It's a shame cheapskates are ruining the fun for honest gamers out there.

  • icematt12 #83 1 year ago

    My question is, why take so long to speak out after the removal of OtherOS if the security is so flawed? Sounds almost unfixable without a major firmware update or replacing both hardware and software.

    One plus side to modders can be not needing to wipe the HDD putting it into a new console. I suffered for that.

    Edited by icematt12 at 03/01/11 @ 17:31

  • Hindle #84 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 23:04:43 04-04-2012

  • SavageEvil #85 1 year ago

    More fuel to the DRM fire and then we'll end up with Digital Downloads only, which will expire and then force us to pay to renew the right to play. Keep it up you self loving morons, this is going to start a trend where gaming becomes too much of a risk and consumers will be left in the cold as you will be inundated with more legal crap tied to purchasing software. If hackers wanted to just crack something and get one thing reinstated I would find that "robin Hood" like, but why would you send it out knowing that it can lead to widespread proliferation of pirating. They even said that pirates don't do the work of hacking, they just take the hackers work and use it to their own means....case in point why are you releasing it with that knowledge? This is why the world is full of arrogant assholes, because "it's my right" stupid people do things because it's their so called right. What about the companies who created that system, aren't you infringing upon their right to not allow you access to protected and trademarked work? Well at least gaming made it big in my life time, going down in flames right before our eyes and many people are happy with that. Talk about giving Bobby Kotick even more of a reason to push his agendas, great. Soon you won't have a system at all, just a connection.

  • CrumpledPaper #86 1 year ago

    _I think a large part of that was how walled-off Linux was under OtherOS. No GPU acceleration, limited use of the SPUs_

    While that is true - lack of GPU access stunted interest - we were talking about interest in Cell programming. And there wasn't limited SPU access, you had full access to the same 6 SPUs every other PS3 application or game can use.

    Maybe there'll be more interest now you can use Cell+GPU together, but there was little interest for Cell alone. I hope we don't see stuff that just lazily leans on the GPU, I hope Cell will be put to good use too.
    Edited by CrumpledPaper at 03/01/11 @ 17:31

  • jonsaan #87 1 year ago

    I think gaming has moved on from simply being able to play a hooky copy of a boxed game. If you can't go online and make full use of PSN and all the content you own it would be utterly pointless.

  • el_pollo_diablo #88 1 year ago

    What annoys me is that the net result of all this is that I'm going to have to patch my firmware in the future even more often than I do now. And for what? Linux? Fuck off.

    Good work failoverflow, thanks a bunch.

  • HASJ #89 1 year ago

    @tossetaz Yeah! Hilarious that it took them four years to break the security (even though I do believe that was only because OtherOS WAS there, you don't know how much hackers like their freedom, imagine then running your own code in a CPU that's almost unreachable to end-users)!

    It was quite a peaceful battle to Sony's side, even when Jailbreak appeared, but now they've to come up with something much more ingenuous...
    And man, GeoHot is something totally different entirely, he's a freaking genius!

  • dirtysteve #90 1 year ago

    djroz, thank you for your poorly thought out and written rant. Homebrewers are not the same thing as pirates.

  • el_pollo_diablo #91 1 year ago

    @cheeky_error
    "now people can do whatever they want with something they spent hundreds of pounds on"

    Buying a car doesn't give you the right to run people over.

  • Collymilad #92 1 year ago

    @Farzlepot, you are missing something - the fact that the PS3 had the ability to run linux then it was removed. That's probably why these hackers did it, even though as you say you can run Linux on a PC. Some people will have been annoyed by it's removal and this group was obviously included in that group.


    @el_pollo - what an utterly ridiculous comparison to make. A more apt one would be you buy a car then you can only drive it where the manufacturer tells you, this allows you to drive it wherever you want.


    I don't agree with piracy, and this will lead to piracy, but just because it will doesn't constitute proof that that's what these guys intended. For all you know it's perfectly possible they did do it just for the reasons they say. It's amazing how many people jump to the defence of a Corporation, they don't give a fuck about you believe me.
    Edited by Collymilad at 03/01/11 @ 17:50

  • djcool3005 #93 1 year ago

    If this will mean i can run emulators on my ps3 then thats awesome news. Tbh sony don't really have anyone else to blame but themselves. Why didn't they just leave other OS in and keep people happy. They were asking for a retaliation.

  • el_pollo_diablo #94 1 year ago

    @Colly

    Yeah but even if it hadn't ever run linux in the first place, it's a fair bet that they would have hacked it "just to prove it could be done" anyway.

    And buying a car doesn't give you the right to drive it wherever you want.
    Edited by el_pollo_diablo at 03/01/11 @ 17:50

  • Collymilad #95 1 year ago

    @el_pollo - really? We could go on for days. I think you knew exactly what I meant.

  • jonbwfc #96 1 year ago

    I can buy that they've cracked it, I can't buy the notion people only started looking to crack it after OtherOS was removed from the PS3. The reason otherOS was removed was, IIRC, because the likes of GeoHOT had announced in public that it was a viable vector for hacking the PS3 to allow unsigned code to be run. Ergo, they must have been examining ways to do this while OtherOS was still present.

    This hack is obviously different as it allows 3rd parties to sign code, rather than being a hack which allows the running of unsigned code. But the idea the PS3 has taken this long to hack because nobody bothered when OtherOS was present is, frankly, bunk. It may well be that OtherOS being present sent the hackers off down a blind alley but that's their mistake not Sony's. Mind you, saying 'we hacked the PS3 in a year' sounds an awful lot better than 'we hacked the PS3 in three years because we spent the first two years barking up the wrong tree' doesn't it?

    Jon

  • el_pollo_diablo #97 1 year ago

    @colly

    "It's amazing how many people jump to the defence of a Corporation, they don't give a fuck about you believe me."

    I don't care about Sony, and I'm well aware that they don't care about me either. I DO care about the more pragmatic matter of now having to update my firmware all the fucking time because some tit has hacked the PS3. The fact that they did it 'to re-enable linux' is almost irrelevant - they're not striking a blow for the common man here, because the common man doesn't know what linux even is. The common man cares about free games.

    And for all the "we're doing it for the people" attitude of certain (not all) hacking groups, they and their supporters do also seem to forget that corporations are made up of people too, trying to feed their kids and knock off at half five.

    Fucking hell, saying that you support Sony or Microsoft when it comes to their stance on piracy doesn't make you a fanboy or a fool, it just means you have an opinion.

  • Vemsie #98 1 year ago

    @Colly. It's not so much about defending big coporations, but we care about our hobby and those who provide the means to do so. Take Naughty Dog for instance. A very talented bunch of people who make very good games and spend a lot of time and money in doing so. Just like I prefer to be rewarded for the work I do, so do they no doubt. It would be a shame to see developers like them getting the short end of the stick due to piracy floodgates being openend.

    I am not against hombrew and the like, I would say they are very welcome.

  • Widge #99 1 year ago

    4 years and only just cracked though, not too bad considering. You can bet the mistake won't be made again and that they'll make the next system watertight. Also reckon MS will be keeping an eye on security lessons learnt this generation.

    More of us buying games = more games and better games, I hope all the console makers keep on cracking down. This goes beyond a question of platform one upmanship, its down to gaming and its future.

  • UncleLou #100 1 year ago

    It was gonna happen sooner or later. Thing is I've been pirating games for PC for years. I mean who seriosuly pays for PC games these days.

    People with jobs who aren't short-sighted, selfish idiots.

  • Widge #101 1 year ago

    I do too, all on Steam. They give good bargains and I like the management side of things. No fucking about with installs and tweaking, all my shit in one place.

  • Smoped #102 1 year ago

    Anyway, enough about Linux. What I want to know is will I be able to install Windows on the PS3 now.

  • Smoped #103 1 year ago

    Also, I wouldn't worry too much about constant future firmware updates since no firmware update will work against this.

  • INSOMANiAC #104 1 year ago

    The PSP encryption keys were allegedly inside as well so all PSPs will soon be in the same boat.

    What a shit day for developers and gamers alike.

  • des #105 1 year ago

    PSP is in shit anyway so who cares...it might even help it a little

  • Kaminari #106 1 year ago

    Good thing I didn't format my trusty Linux partition.

  • Stop-gap #107 1 year ago

    someone asked "So from a business perspective is this bad for Sony like puling out of the hardware race type bad or what?"

    No, it is theoretically good for them in some respects, they make a small profit on hardware these days, so a boost there is welcome. It might also help them when the guys who are mainly interested in this as a way of making the PS3 the media centre they want buy some blu-ray disks to shove in it.
    Besides that, it isn't like every PS3 is suddenly going to be cracked by next week either, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't trust a random file I DLed off the internet to "unlock" my PS3 to not just brick it. Also if I was Sony I'd tell me to fuck off with my warranty if I tried to get it fixed with said firmware in place, malicious or not.

  • Lucodeath #108 1 year ago

    I worked out that equation exactly the same a while ago, simple when you know how. Yeh right, I couldnt even read it.

  • Prodigy_BE #109 1 year ago

    Simple mathematics... Euhm... I feel stupid now.

  • Vemsie #110 1 year ago

    @The Driffter

    "Getting half-a**ed, 5 hour long campaigns with tacked on multiplayer. We should be praising the hackers. "

    Man, you are painting with broad strokes. If you can't see there are some truly great games on the system which were made with a lot of care and attention (from Uncharted 2 to Demon's Souls), I would advise another hobby. Some people are really grasping for straws here. An open system in itself is great, piracy is not.

  • AphoticCosmos #111 1 year ago

    While the scale of Sony's failure here is, frankly, monumental and mind-boggling, at least it's employees don't (hopefully) live in their mums' basement hacking game consoles all day and working as janitors at convenience stores all night.

  • suhawk75 #112 1 year ago

    Call the cops! Someone has a gun the head of The Drifters children. He has NO CHOICE but to buy the HD versions of those PS2 games.

    Probably Sony again. Bastards

    Edited by suhawk75 at 03/01/11 @ 20:02

  • DirectAim #113 1 year ago

    People are acting like this is going to kill Sony and the gaming industry, this is going to shift consoles and thus increase Market share which will mean more games, pirates ain't shut down the music or film industry so people need to chill out!

    I can see Sony fanboys now becoming anti piracy, woohoo

  • SeesThroughAll #114 1 year ago

    I know there is still some PS2 software inside non BC PS3s. I bet these HD classics basically have been given '' permission to allow compatibility on this title '' its just that Sony locked the option.

    I doubt that the HD classics would only need that to run. They require a good portion of native PS3 code to run properly anyway.

  • bonker #115 1 year ago

    Bad news for 3rd party devs ...

    Great news for Sony ...

  • DirectAim #116 1 year ago

    AphoticCosmos 2011-01-03 19:58:19
    While the scale of Sony's failure here is, frankly, monumental and mind-boggling, at least it's employees don't (hopefully) live in their mums' basement hacking game consoles all day and working as janitors at convenience stores all night.

    Ur a nob, these hackers will be in the money big time, u think these types of people can't earn money? They will be earning more than you!

  • smelly #117 1 year ago

    "It's amazing how many people jump to the defence of a Corporation, they don't give a fuck about you believe me."

    Considering how many people would jump down my throat if i said, halo/mario/uncharted (delete as applicable) is shit.. But yet quite a few of them would be quite happy to pirate said games if they could easily.... Then yes it is quite amazing.. amazing there are quite a few people out there who ARENT assholes.

  • smelly #118 1 year ago

    >They will be earning more than you!

    No they wont.. they're too busy jacking each other off in their mums basement wondering what a real girl looks like to get a job.

  • Bartacus #119 1 year ago

    Maybe if new releases weren't so expensive I would join the rest of you in your outlook that this is bad news.
    Edited by Bartacus at 03/01/11 @ 20:31

  • NewbieZilla #120 1 year ago

    The Powa of the Cell!

  • RESIDENT_nEVILe #121 1 year ago

    Much as I hate to see game developers lose money through piracy - I do love custom firmware, custom themes, apps and emulators :D

    Even in the past with hacked hardware I never d/l moody games ('sept for ancient ROMS for Emus) - I always pay full retail price to support the industry for its hard work.

    I expect to see PS3 sales sky-rocket - get em quick before there is a hardware revision. There is gonna be some mind-blowing homebrew. Poor Sony, still they are getting better at security

  • snowdog #122 1 year ago

    Hopefully some bright spark is going to come up with a BootMii equivalent for the PS3. I crap myself every time I update the firmware on my PS3 and 360 just in case there's a power cut. Not a problem with my Wii, it's now pretty much brick-proof.

  • DirectAim #123 1 year ago

    That geohot dude just released the keys on PSX Scene

    erk: C0 CE FE 84 C2 27 F7 5B D0 7A 7E B8 46 50 9F 93 B2 38 E7 70 DA CB 9F F4 A3 88 F8 12 48 2B E2 1B
    riv: 47 EE 74 54 E4 77 4C C9 B8 96 0C 7B 59 F4 C1 4D
    pub: C2 D4 AA F3 19 35 50 19 AF 99 D4 4E 2B 58 CA 29 25 2C 89 12 3D 11 D6 21 8F 40 B1 38 CA B2 9B 71 01 F3 AE B7 2A 97 50 19
    R: 80 6E 07 8F A1 52 97 90 CE 1A AE 02 BA DD 6F AA A6 AF 74 17
    n: E1 3A 7E BC 3A CC EB 1C B5 6C C8 60 FC AB DB 6A 04 8C 55 E1
    K: BA 90 55 91 68 61 B9 77 ED CB ED 92 00 50 92 F6 6C 7A 3D 8D
    Da: C5 B2 BF A1 A4 13 DD 16 F2 6D 31 C0 F2 ED 47 20 DC FB 06 70

  • PixelPirate #124 1 year ago

    If anything, piracy seems to improve hardwars sales, but at the cost of software.

    The PS1 was rife with hacks to play copied games, same as the DS. Both consoles sold gang busters on the hardware. Software sales inevitably suffer as a result though :(

    Its a shame schoolboy errors led to this!

  • Spydy #125 1 year ago

    So dumb. Anyone who thinks that Sony 'dug their own grave' by removing Linux is high. It's an excuse to hide behind.

  • Smoped #126 1 year ago

    @Bartacus: That's only the newest games though. If you don't mind waiting a month or two, pretty much all games can be found at relatively cheap prices online or second hand.

  • Nithron #127 1 year ago

    You know, it has vaguely annoyed me since the start of this generation that I couldn't use my console as a PC. I move back and forth to university a lot, and it seems pretty retarded to carry two pretty powerful platforms with me, when in fact they could both do the same job - literally the only thing separating them is some kind of copy protection added against my will to a product I already paid for.

    So yeah, good on ya, Fail0verflow. You made my life slightly easier.

  • Syrette #128 1 year ago

    i really hope Sony will come up with a solution and will stop all failoverfags and geogay shit.


    i just don't understand how, in this world,in 2011, where a guy may finish in jail because, for surviving, he tried to steal some food in a shop, some guys can make companies/economies/everything else collapse, bankruptcy, making millions of unemployeds, and small companies that depend on big ones close the door. and there's nothing these big companies (Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, for exemple) can do to stop it. it's simply incredible.


    i know this is a game based website, and i shouldn't talk about religions.


    Tell me, if these companies were Iranian companies, or Egyptian, or from other muslim country, do you think these stupid geeks would be laughing at sony's face ? do you think all these virgin geeks would be doing some conferences, and then, would go home and watch a porno movie while drinking some geek shit ????

    no, these guys would simply be killed after their first attempt to show/present/rumour about any firmware, bootloader or whatever regarding the product.

    gayhot would get a playstation move controler up in the ass, a nunchuk down the throat, the whole video uploaded to youtube.

    failovergays would get their dicks burnt with xbox360's Cpu after 1 hour playing halo and they would have to eat 7 ps3's SPUs, since they love sony's hardware. later on, a little grenade, booum! once again, the whole video uploaded to youtube, in 1080p please, so we don't miss any detail.

    that's what would happen if the companies that provide us the thousands of hours playing nice games weren't from Japan or Usa. unfortunatly, i won't see these videos soon.


    Please, can someone please change a couple of laws and just put these kids in jail for 30 years??? No internet, no computer, no magazines, just a tv in every cell showing trailers/gameplay videos of actual and upcoming console/computer games.
    Ps4, xbox720, Wii HD, 5 years later: PS5, xbox1K, Wii HD2, and so on.


    Shit, i want to pay my games and pay them. I want to see people around me playing games they bought.
    I want to see Developpers spending every cent they have getting 200% of every hardware of every console.
    i want to wait 1 year for THAT game, and then, i want to go shopping and BUY it, and give the developpers their money back. i want to thank every studio and every developper for their hard work by buying their game.
    i want to have all those blue or green boxes on the shelf, and be able to use them in 20 years. i need to work hard for every game. but what a pleasure.


    i'm angry, really.


    Please, Sony. How can you let a couple of guys hack your console, without doing nothing to stop it?


    You spent billions on Cell processor, you waited years for blu-ray technology, you lost billions when you sold ps3s at the beginning. How many factories work for you? how many million people work for you, or with you?

    What about your first party studios, that rely on you?
    How can they continue beeing exclusive if it's not garanteed their 3 years of hard work spent on a game
    will end up on emule/torrent/newsgroups?

    i want the best games. i want hundreads of uncharted 2-3 like games. Now that developpers are used to ps3's hardware, now that they can get 100% of the power of those cpu/spus, will you let these kids fuck up your games, your business, MY GAMES afterall ?

    in less than 3 weeks, i want to start reading all over the net "Sorry kids, Sony did it again, the ps3 is safe again"



    3 weeks, SONY, 3 WEEKS.

  • KDR_11k #129 1 year ago

    Hm, does that mean people can now make unlicensed games NES-style? Japanese porn game makers love doing that so the PS3 might end up with a large catalog of unofficial porn software...

  • randompanda #130 1 year ago

    Heaven forbid the gaming press would publicise this news!

    Idiots.

  • kraill #131 1 year ago

    There is one simple way to stop the majority of pirating that will occur for new games. Developers just need to fill up the rest of the blu-ray disk space not taken for the game with junk, but have some code within the junk that makes the game useless to play without it. Most people will not take the time and bandwidth to download 25-50 gb games to play on their systems. This in effect would limit the amount of people pirating.

    @pomegran, I see where you are coming from, but what I suggest does not make it so you have to install the full disk to have it run good. However, like you said blu-ray performance of all that data would require all games to have at least 1-2 gb install to run normal. That would sux, but sometimes that is what happens when idiots hack stuff to prevent it. For instance Metal gear took up the whole disk but only required around a 2-3 gb install I think?
    Edited by kraill at 03/01/11 @ 22:59

  • Bigkopman #132 1 year ago

    I wonder how it would affect on-line gaming with it? Could Sony detect that a 'backed up' game was being used? I thought Micro$oft had solved this issue...

  • Rodney #133 1 year ago

    I bought my PS3 in the UK but live in Australia so Ill use this to unlock the region coding on DVD/ Blu Ray playback. I don't pirate but fuck region protection in the ass. Protectionist bullshit.

  • Noble6 #134 1 year ago

    Bad start of the year for Sony.

  • riceNpea #135 1 year ago

    foreverafternothing write a mammoth post and gets negs. that made me chuckle.

  • Noble6 #136 1 year ago

    @el pollo diablo

    "Buying a car doesn't give you the right to run people over."

    Buying a car does give you the right to take a shit in it and set it on fire though doesn't it ?

  • pomegran #137 1 year ago

    'Most people will not take the time and bandwidth to download 25-50 gb games to play on their systems.'

    Yeah, I can see that working. Most games require installs nowadays due to Blu-ray performance. Installing 50gb just to ensure your game will run just won't happen.
    Edited by pomegran at 03/01/11 @ 22:43

  • Dolly #138 1 year ago

    It really is the stupidest thing I think I've ever read on this site.

    Moron.

    Edit: forevers jihad rant
    Edited by Dolly at 03/01/11 @ 22:45

  • dirtyvu #139 1 year ago

    this will create a huge upswing in PS3 sales if it turns out to be true. unfortunately, it'll all be hardware sales and the PS3 will become like the PSP, no one buying any games but the system selling well. but bring on XBMC and emulators!!! woohoo!!!

  • Noble6 #140 1 year ago

    @foreverafternothing

    You just wasted 3 minutes of my life.
    Were you crying at any point while writing that article you intended to be a comment :p

    Im not being a dick, just having a laugh buddy.... I feel for you.

  • MasterControlProgram #141 1 year ago

    Nothing really new here, guys. At this point in PS3 life cycle, Sony decided they needed to enlarge their installed base to try and catch up with X360 and Wii. So in my opinion it's not so far from bullseye who says they simply allowed (or at least not opposed) this break to happen: they hope it will boost hardware sales for a while, maybe pairing it with a consistent price reduction, so that in its maturity Ps3 will be perceived by general public as the new PSOne (e.g. cheap product with an infinite single-player software catalogue); all this while they prepare the way for PS4 or whatever it will be called.

    Besides, the hack will probably not affect online services -although for Sony it's probably not as important as it is for MS (I am not up to date on figures here), it's a good revenue source nonetheless, and I suppose they will find a method to keep piracy out of PSN.

  • Sunyavadin #142 1 year ago

    Might increase the installed userbase at least. That's usually the main result of piracy. So Sony benefit in the long run, just as they did from the original PS being the easiest console to pirate games for of its generation.

  • Widge #143 1 year ago

    WTF? That reads like: we hate piracy but here is this thing we have done that may make it possible.

    Easiest anti-piracy option = not doing that thing.

  • Widge #144 1 year ago

    Most of the decent ps3 games including multiplat titles are about 10-15gb. I've easily done about 100gb of game downloading this week thanks to a new hdd and going on a Steam install binge. I'm sure size won't put people off.

    If they want to rip off games then they shall do it, find a way. Be it waiting for epic downloads or going to a modshop to get someone to stick a midchip in their box of choice.

  • FutileResistor #145 1 year ago

    How much difference will this make, really? Piracy accounts for some lost sales, no doubt. There is no hard data and nobody seems very interested in trying to do a proper study. I believe almost all pirates were never going to buy those games in the first place.

    Consider the fact that Xbox 360 has had pirated games for years. The install base of 360 and PS3 is pretty close. If piracy were that significant a factor in terms of sales, you would expect more sales on PS3. Yet, almost every multi-platform game sells more on 360. Almost every 360 exclusive sells in bigger numbers than PS3 exclusives.

    The above is obviously a huge over-simplication of the situation, not taking into account things like friends lists, or whether a significant number of PS3 purchases were for Blue-Ray only, achievements over trophies etc etc ... But obviously we can't control for those variables and on the face of it, this is one of the best datapoints we have on the 'does piracy affect sales?' question.

    It's just something I've always found puzzling given that the 360 has been hacked for so long why does it continue to sell more games than the PS3? If piracy were that big a deal in terms of lost sales, the PS3 should be outselling the 360 by a mile on multi-plat games.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 04/01/11 @ 04:54

  • jackdoe #146 1 year ago

    Sony could just sue the hell out of these people.

  • Kenshin001 #147 1 year ago

    @FutileResistor, surprised EG didn't cover it but TorrentFreak posted the most pirated games of 2010 based on BitTorrent data:

    Xbox360

    1 Dante’s Inferno (1,280,000) (Feb. 2010)
    2 Alan Wake (1,140,000) (May. 2010)
    3 Red Dead Redemption (1.060,000) (May. 2010)
    4 Halo Reach (990,000) (Sept. 2010)
    5 Call of Duty: Black Ops (930,000) (Nov. 2010)

    For all the people celebrating, I wonder how devs like Remedy feel about it when looking at those figures.

  • el_pollo_diablo #148 1 year ago

    @Introvertigo

    We see that they're clever guys and they may indeed hate piracy. But then they're also kind of naive, right?

  • curtlikesmeat #149 1 year ago

    BOOM!

    You never know.

  • curtlikesmeat #150 1 year ago

    On a more serious note, I like buying games and supporting decent developers (that would not include Activision and Ubisoft at this time).

  • SeesThroughAll #151 1 year ago

    There is one simple way to stop the majority of pirating that will occur for new games. Developers just need to fill up the rest of the blu-ray disk space not taken for the game with junk, but have some code within the junk that makes the game useless to play without it. Most people will not take the time and bandwidth to download 25-50 gb games to play on their systems. This in effect would limit the amount of people pirating.

    And this "junk" would only serve the purpose of filling the disc, but not significantly interfere with the load time?

    You honestly think hackers would not find ways to circumvent that protection and "rip" games, so that ISOs only need the valid 4-7 GBs?

  • jackdoe #152 1 year ago

    @Kenshin001
    See, that's the thing. In spite of piracy, the huge blockbuster games on the PC and consoles still sell millions. It's only the smaller releases that get so completely decimated in sales that studios close.

    But this will probably encourage Sony to get the PS4 out much quicker and for them to drop PS3 support. Thanks for that hackers!
    Edited by jackdoe at 04/01/11 @ 00:03

  • SeesThroughAll #153 1 year ago

    On topic: disregarding the random number generation part of the encryption process is the most retarded thing I've ever heard of. Sony asked for this, guys.

  • FutileResistor #154 1 year ago

    @Kenshin001

    You have missed my point though. As a publisher you can cry all you like, thinking you've lost millions of sales.

    The reality is this. The Xbox 360 version of RDR outsold the PS3 version 2 to 1. Xbox 360 tops Red Dead sales So despite those 1 million pirate copies of Red Dead on the Xbox 360. The Xbox version of the game has sold millions more than the PS3 version.

    Where are all your lost sales? More games are selling on the pirated console than the secure one. Almost every multi-plat game sells more on 360 than PS3. If piracy were a significant factor in sales, every multi-plat game would sell better on the PS3.

    This is why I say, pirates were never going to buy your game anyway.

  • thedgam #155 1 year ago

    You just have to wonder where all this might lead to, I mean in the big picture. Will today's biggest entertainment industry also end up like the music industry? Yes there are still musicians that make platinum (million sold) albums but one has to wonder, if these albums were released back then it would have easily made diamond (10mil sold), Most good musicians are almost non-existent now in the airwaves and some are forced to conform and restrict their artistic vision to ensure the sales. Is this how to near future would look like? Will the same be said about games, still such a young industry? It just might be and it makes me real sad. Parity , Freedom or fuckin whut'not, Stealing is still Stealing and this is the only true legacy that our recent generation leaves behind. :(

  • jackdoe #156 1 year ago

    But in all honesty. Is the potential loss of software support (say what you want about piracy affecting sales. Publishers believe it is hurting sales and in the end, that's all that matters) worth the gain of homebrew? I personally don't think so.

    Oh well.

  • metamorphic #157 1 year ago

    Again, they haven't hacked anything YET, so the title is very misleading. Perhaps you should put that in quotes, as all of this are still just claims as of right now. The tools haven't even been released, so I think this is jumping the gun a bit from DF.

  • Lemming81 #158 1 year ago

    This is all great for them, but until they figure out a way for me to hack and alter my profile so it wipes game trophies for games I don't have 100% on, then I'll wait with baited breath. IT'S SO ANNOYING! *cries*

  • kizme #159 1 year ago

    Suddenly I see comments from PS3 owners about having Kinect on their machines. So you admit now that a cool piece of tech it is then and much better that your wii remote ooops sorry I think it's called MOVE. Mind you dont think M$ will bother that much when they find they've sold 50 million of them.

  • NotSoSlim #160 1 year ago

    ^^^

    More fanboy nonsense. Get over it already, every bloody thread turns into fanboy crap and its bloody boring

  • BabyJesus #161 1 year ago

    Well it had a good run.

  • NegativeZero #162 1 year ago

    So this should mean a full port of MPlayer so I can use the system as a HTPC, a port of a good PS2 emulator so my non-BC console can be fully PS2 compatible (and region free), Region-free bluray playback and eventually able to run things like translation patches.

    Bad for Sony, for sure, but for me as a consumer it's pretty awesome. I get all the features that the system should actually have already.

  • Mentat_Idaho #163 1 year ago

    I would be tempted to hack my console if I could then copy my Demon's Souls saves to another PS3... One of the reasons I have held off getting a slim is because I would have to start the game again (something I'm not prepared to do after sinking 50+ hours into it). Other than that, I am happy to buy original games (I also do so on my PC and X360), and am not really interested in Linux. It would be nice to have a region free Bluray player though.

  • Beano #164 1 year ago

    @Mentat_Idaho: You can upgrade to Slim and keep all your saves including DS. Just do a transfer with a LAN cable... slow but works just fine. I did it myself last year.

  • FutileResistor #165 1 year ago

    @doomed_soul89
    'almost every game that isn't a shooter sells more on ps3, in 2009 fiscal year ps3 sold more software then 360 by alot'

    Source?

    I have almost never seen a report or chart of a multi-plat game selling more on PS3.

    Click on the first graph on this page. The graph compares sales for about 70 multi-plat games from october 06 to march 09. Out of those 70 games only 8 games sell better on PS3 during this period. During the period covered, the Xbox 360 version of the game sold more than the PS3 version of the same game about 90% of the time.

    If you have more recent data, please share because that would be interesting. Just saying that PS3 is selling more copies of multi-plat games than the 360 doesn't make it true.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 04/01/11 @ 02:53

  • Mentat_Idaho #166 1 year ago

    @Beano. Thanks for that. I may have to pick a slim soon then. Is it possible to transfer DS saves over if I were to buy a larger hard drive for my fatty?

  • Beano #167 1 year ago

    I belive so ... actually just upgraded my slim with a 750 GB drive and everything seems to have been transferred also.

  • Mentat_Idaho #168 1 year ago

    @Beano. Thanks. That's good to know...

  • RKOwned #169 1 year ago

    I hate how these hackers think they have the right to crack open these consoles they buy and think they can pirate stuff and its in their rights or whatever.

  • RKOwned #170 1 year ago

    I love how XBOX fanboys have devolved some of the comments into banter on about how their syestem is still the bestest and find a way to spew their shit.

  • FutileResistor #171 1 year ago

    @RKOwned
    I love how XBOX fanboys have devolved some of the comments into banter on about how their syestem is still the bestest and find a way to spew their shit.

    Can you point out where exactly any 'Xbox fanboys have devolved some of the comments into banter on about how their syestem is still the bestest'?

    The only thing I can remember being close to fanboyish was when someone replied over a Kinect support comment.

    Bloody hell 5:09, England have just lost 2 wickets in quick succession.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 04/01/11 @ 05:10

  • scoobydooX64 #172 1 year ago

    PC piracy is now past tense.

  • mushroomyakuza #173 1 year ago

    I have to say I don't really grasp the significance of this. Being honest, I am just absolutely clueless with the how's if technology.

    Can someone please, in the most basic, laymans terms, explain what this means for the average gamer?

    I understand Sony's security has been compromised and hackers have done...something. But what? How does this actually affect me?

    Apologies for being genuinely without a clue, but I seriously haven't got a scoobies with this stuff.

  • Spydy #174 1 year ago

    I have to say I don't really grasp the significance of this. Being honest, I am just absolutely clueless with the how's if technology.

    Can someone please, in the most basic, laymans terms, explain what this means for the average gamer?

    I understand Sony's security has been compromised and hackers have done...something. But what? How does this actually affect me?

    Apologies for being genuinely without a clue, but I seriously haven't got a scoobies with this stuff.

    .....

    Laymans term: They know Sony's passwords.

    ALL Security has been compromised on both PS3 AND PSP. You no longer need to hack the system with a known bug as previously, instead you can 'pose' as a true signed piece of software / hardware.

    It really will be as simple as plugging in a USB stick, rebooting your PS3 and *BAM*, PS3 hacked, all games downloadable (free / pirated, obviously) via the browser to your HDD, plus all the other benefits of custom apps made by the community.

    How does this affect you? Depends on whether you take the plunge and decide to run the custom apps / pirated games on your PS3 or continue to use it for it's intended purpose and ignore what will probably be some highly cool community stuff.
    Edited by Spydy at 04/01/11 @ 07:27

  • ConayR #175 1 year ago

    "Is there anything stopping Sony verifying the checksum of firmware over PSN?"
    Yes. The fact that that PSN servers would have to talk to the console via some software running on it. At this point everything running on the console can be reverse-engineered easily and immediately patched, so PSN would not be able to validate anything. You just make the patched software reply to the PSN infrastructure "yes, it's legit!" and there's nothing Sony can do about it.

  • banjo21 #176 1 year ago

    Personally I dont think piracy impacts on that many sales. Thing is I know you can crack the 360 but I cant be bothered. Not because I'm an angel but I just cant be bothered to go through all that nonsense when a game is only £38 anyway on day 1 and half that a month later from any forum. If I cant afford £38 every month of so for a good few hours entertainment then I've got bigger problems in my life to spend hours fixing rather than messing around with piracy. I admit I had access to a cracked original Xbox - but that was for XBMC use exclusively and my PS3 as it is does everything I want in that department.
    If Sony and MS are that bothered then get everything available via official download and make it an appealing proposition - i.e. 2/3 the price of a boxed game - then kill piracy and second hand sales in one easy move. Really amazes me that teams of execs much brighter then I'll ever be cant work that one out.

  • jonbwfc #177 1 year ago

    RE: The argument the hackers don't like or condone piracy. I'm sure Smith & Wesson don't condone murder, but that's pretty much generally what a lot of their products are used for. Sometimes, the only way to win the war is not to fight the battle. If you don't like the consequences of your actions, you always have the choice not to do them.

    In fact, I very much doubt they actually give a damn either way. The thing about 'clever, intelligent people' is they tend to be very single minded and, well, they get 'head down' with things and don't look at the big picture. They see a problem, they want to 'fix' it and they don't really tend to consider anything after that. This will lead to piracy and, frankly, them saying they don't condone piracy is the most weak-kneed, lilly livered attempt at a getout I've heard in a very long time.

    This isn't a cure for cancer, it's not clean electricity. The sum total of advancement for the human species this will cause is infinitesimally different to naff all. If they don't like what will happen to their code/work, don't release it. Of course then they won't get the press coverage and ego massaging, will they?

    Jon

  • IronGiant #178 1 year ago

    You can flower up the reasons as much as you like but the facts are straight forward, piracy will now be rampant on the PS3 and the only people responsible are the hackers, end of story. The fault or blame does not lie with the platform owner as they own the OS they can add or remove features as they see fit, the irony being they probably removed the OtherOS option to attempt to stop security exploits.

  • Loghorn #179 1 year ago

    Wow. Sony really screwed this up badly. If they haven't bothered removing the OtherOS in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. Now, there's not a damn thing that they could do about it. It also screws up the chance for PS3 Backwards Compatibility in PS4 & will force them to put out the PS4 sooner than expected.

  • gandhimaster #180 1 year ago

    Dont know if somebody said this already, but.....

    Didn't Sony remove OtherOS support after PS3 got hacked???? Wasn't it a security precaution on Sony's part?

    Hackers had already compromised the PS3 BEFORE OtherOS was removed.

  • Dizzy #181 1 year ago

    "How would that kill piracy?"

    Digital games can be encrypted with a user specific key, like on Steam. Pretty secure (unless of course they get your master key, then you are screwed again).

    "The trade off of the few who will bother with pirating BD-sized games "

    There are barely any BD-sized games on PS3 and the few that there are are padded and probably compress by 85% when zipped.
    Edited by Dizzy at 04/01/11 @ 10:37

  • Gurgeh #182 1 year ago

    This would seem to expose Sony's AACS key for Blu-Ray playback, and possibly expose any future AACS key update issued by Sony, given the level of penetration of security. It would put them in a tight spot, seeing as Blu-Ray players with the key exposed are supposedly unable to play new Blu-Ray discs.

  • KayJay #183 1 year ago

    You want to watch .mkv files on the PS3? use this thing to convert them to M2TS.
    It takes 1 minute to convert the file.
    Easy, no need to a hack or custom firmware.

    <a href="http://www.smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html
    ">http://www.smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html
    </a>

    It supports most of the HD Audio codecs and Subtitles. Great bit of software.
    Edited by KayJay at 04/01/11 @ 11:09

  • alcides #184 1 year ago

    The hell with piracy I just updated mine.

    One effect of piracy is that eventually you'll start getting bored easily by your games. Which is kind of not the point.

  • Vemsie #185 1 year ago

    @Ulov "Hacking is really bad, but 70 euros for 10 hours of gameplay is a robbery. So if the industry does not want to go bananas like music and motion picture i guess they'll have to cut the retail price some day. I guess all games should be downloaded for around 30-40 euros max."

    Games are bit more expensive to make than cd's though. But it's besides the point anyway. People will still pirate 30-40 euro games like crazy. Hell, even a cheap indie game like World of Goo has been pirated to bits. Pirates are cheapskates who apparently feel that everything in this world is free or should be free.
    Edited by Vemsie at 04/01/11 @ 11:28

  • KayJay #186 1 year ago

    @ulov3 - You probably spent quite a bit of time Ripping or Downloading (probably hours) the file in the first place. Whats another minute to ease the pain.
    It pretty much makes the non-support of .mkv files irrelevant.

  • Fallen_Angel #187 1 year ago

    @ulov3 Coverting mkv to M2TS isn't transcoding, its switching the container to one the PS3 recognises. The same trick works on 360 through the Media Centre Extender, takes all of 5 mins.

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #188 1 year ago

    "The protection has certainly lasted longer than that of the Wii and Xbox 360, both of which have been running pirate games for years now. "

    With respect Richard you've mixed hacking to play pirate games and hacking to run linux/homebrew here.

    A firmware hack on the 360s dvd drive to play pirate games isnt the same as running homebrew as they stated themselves in the video. So apart from the JTAG blip the 360 is currently the most secure console as you can't run homebrew/linux on most 360s.

  • jonbwfc #189 1 year ago

    Cost is an irrelevant argument to piracy. That radiohead album they put out and said 'pay what you think it's worth'? People pirated that. You could decide to pay next to nothing for it if you liked and get it legitimately but people STILL pirated it. If you reduce the cost of games you may sell more as a simple function of the cost/demand curve but most of the 'extra' buyers aren't the people who are probably still going to be pirating it.

    There is no valid excuse for taking something that someone else has spent time and energy making without paying for it. It's that simple. As to the hackers and their motivations, well I'm a cynical old sod. I think all their pronouncements are simply a way to try to get themselves out of the accusation of being pirates. I think that if they'd made something that allowed you to use someone else's credit card to buy stuff and they said 'but we only did it for the challenge, we neither agree with or condone anybody actually using it', I doubt anyone would be saying 'well that's OK then'.

  • albinas #190 1 year ago

    @SpaceMidget75 nobody will even try to hack 360 any further as long as it plays pirated games. The ps3jaibreak was not working on newer firmwares, so where was a need to hack ps3 even further to play new games like gt5 etc. Homebrew is a stupid excuse because 99% of people, who will hack their consoles, are interested only in pirating games.
    Edited by albinas at 04/01/11 @ 12:57

  • RelaxedMikki #191 1 year ago

    Hmmm

    I find this really interesting. And, erm, I don't understand half of it. Thanks for the pictures of formulas though - I like those!

    A few musings:

    1. Is there a definite correlation between cracking and the deterioration in quality of games and/or reduction in development budgets? Can we prove it to any degree? Surely won't affect games already in development?

    2. How much longer do we want this generation to last? I can see some appeal in 'unlocking' a system once it's natural lifespan has expired (once new games are no longer being released in any number - like with the PS1).

    3. I genuinely believe that many of the hackers do this 'because it's there'. For the challenge - not profit. I once watched some security expert uber-nerd friends crack the security on a US cable networks encryption of a Thanksgiving football game as they chugged a few beers together.
    Was pretty awesome to watch (it was a hardware job. They had the soldering irons out). These were professional family guys in their 30s and 40s earning many $100,000s dollars a year just doing it for the crack.
    (There was some other motivation in that the cable company had said they could not set up the connection in time for the game. They needed to send out an engineer or something. But the guys were not even that into football - they were more into beating a security challenge with their mates for the fun of it)

  • mazzl #192 1 year ago

    @albinas welll that's looking at this from a gamer point of view...
    if you are a tech nut, and you buy a piece of hardware..you own that piece of computer device.. is it not you'rs to do with it as you please?

    the only real option for them would have been to become publishers them self for ps3, and sign you're homebrew code for you...

  • Mkwone #193 1 year ago

    As a technical achievement i'd like to see what people can make out of this - in the same way people are running kinect on PC's etc. However it's not something i'd consider for my own hardware.

    In terms of pirating games i think it's the 6-7/10 games that will suffer. Games that people want to play and may of purchased when they were £20odd, but now (or soon) they can get for free

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #194 1 year ago

    Cost DOES have an effect, just not to all people. It's just not black and white like that.

    Price.
    DRM hassles.
    Multiple games on single storage.
    Instant access - (no need to wait for it to be delivered)

    Why bother finding a decently seeded torrent of KOTOR, patching it, and no-cd cracking it when you can download it nice and fast through Steam for £1.75!

    If someone STILL decides to pirate it then I suspect they wouldn't purchase the game even if no pirate version existed. It's still not ethical but it isn't a lost sale.

    Also, as Retroid pointed out with the orginal Xbox and PS, piracy doesn't ALWAYS effect sales as much as they want us to believe. They state on this video that only 1% of Wii owners have installed the homebrew channel.

    And finally, I have NEVER in my 35 years heard someone say the don't want that copy of an Album on tape or turn down that copy of E.T. on VHS or asked for instuctions on how to torrent TV shows. So can the 80% of you vocally banging on about what a bunch or wankers these hackers are please get off their high horses.

    If you've pirated even ONE thing in your life you're a hypocrit and certainly in no position to pontificate.

    NOTE: It sounds like i'm advocating piracy and I am 100% NOT. I am however trying to have a sensible discussion about this issue and how serious its effects are to the consumer and the producer. I'm also a professional software developer myself!!
    Edited by SpaceMidget75 at 04/01/11 @ 13:06

  • gesadt #195 1 year ago

    wow theres sure a lot of people getting their panties in a knot about piracy. stop all the exaggeration and doomsaying.if piracy was such a killer as you assume, pc gaming would be dead 20 years ago, not to mention previous ps2 and xbox consoles that were hacked to hell and back and yet sold shitton of games. moreover the whole point of consoles is that they are for casual users, vast majority of whom by definition arent going to mess with modding/changing firmawares etc. Smaller subset of console user base are of course pirates. so will you get a simple fact into your head - they weren't going to buy the game anyway. how the hell does that affect anything in any significant scale?

  • Dizzy #196 1 year ago

    "Why bother finding a decently seeded torrent of KOTOR, patching it, and no-cd cracking it when you can download it nice and fast through Steam for £1.75! "

    True.. but one of the problems is the sale of consoles with games already on the HDD. I am sure next year you can go to HK and buy a PS3 with 100 games on a HDD all for the price of a PS3 alone.

  • RelaxedMikki #197 1 year ago

    There's probably a few developers on the forum. How do you guys feel about the piracy of your own work?

    I'm genuinely not bothered when I see the boring financial tools I have coded being used without license. Often I have put my heart and soul into building an app and am happy for it to get into as many hands as possible and be as useful as possible. I am a weirdo though, and it obviously annoys the people who sell my work when they see it being used without them getting paid...

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #198 1 year ago

    Hi RelaxedMikki

    I agree with everything you've said in your posts.

    Also, when our software gets pirated I feel sorry for the people that had to pay for it when others are using it for free.

    Do I think that there is a 1:1 relationship between pirated copys and lost sales? Not a chance. Not even close.


    Edited by SpaceMidget75 at 04/01/11 @ 13:26

  • layleeloo #199 1 year ago

    @spacemidget75. IM glad your name is what it is - because what planet could you possible be off to say that "Do I think that there is a 1:1 relationship between pirated copys and lost sales? Not a chance. Not even close.

    WHAT UTTER BOLLOCKS. People can say all they want that piracy doesnt affect sales but it blatantly does. People can say all you want that people pirate media and they buy originals all you like but we all know its probably less than 1% that do that. If you have a copy of something - most people wont go and buy the original. So that claim it utter unfounded shite. If you are on about some financial too you made yourself and are not arsed about others robbing it - like a guy above has said, then thats fair enough. Thats not the issue here through is it - it is prated material of valuable entertainment media that costs millions to produce.

    Piracy has been PROVEN to lose sales.

    I quote Peter Hook from new order "Piracy has led to a 95% loss in sales of new order CD"s. They went from selling 3 million per album to 3000 due to piracy. The figures which were discovered by pirate research bodies found that New Orders last album was downloaded 4 million times".

    So you try and tell me with a straight face piracy doesn't affect sales. It blatantly does - whether its games, music or films. Common sense tells you this - but the research and proven facts also prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Piracy = lost original sales, thus harming all industries.

    The only people who do not think piracy equals lost sales are those/you who are trying to ease their guilt for raping the industry and helping destroy it for the rest of the law abiding citizens. Those who pirate or purchase pirated material make me sick when they call themselves gamers, or music fans. They are nothing of the sort - just simple common thieves. If they were fans, they would pay for what they love and do it with a willing smile on their face!!!!!
    Edited by layleeloo at 04/01/11 @ 13:55

  • layleeloo #200 1 year ago

    @gesadt "so will you get a simple fact into your head - they weren't going to buy the game anyway. how the hell does that affect anything in any significant scale?"

    1 - If those people were not going to buy the game then why download it at all, as they mustn't want it much?

    2 - on thats right, they weren't going to buy the game - BECAUSE they are happy and willing to steal it for free and rape the developers. To say it doesn't hurt if someone wasn't going to buy it anyway it bollocks - they were not going to but it BECAUSE they were going to pirate it. If piracy didn't exist, and they wanted the game, they would have had no choice but to buy it.

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #201 1 year ago

    @layleeloo

    Sorry but you just wasted your time typing all that telling me that piracy has an effect on sales because I never said otherwise!

    I said it's not close to 1:1. And it's not.

    When someone downloads a DS Rom pack with a 100 games in it do you think they would have bought all those?? Really?

    What about the people I knew that had 300 Playstation games on CD-R? I'm telling you now they wouldn't have been able to PHYSICALLY afford to buy all those!

    People don't alway pirate stuff that they wanted enough to warrant spending £30 on it. Sometimes people pirate stuff that they don't want that much, but they do anyway because they morally don't give a shit...

    Don't be so nieve....and fucking rude.

    Edited by SpaceMidget75 at 04/01/11 @ 14:34

  • gesadt #202 1 year ago

    @layleeloo1 - If those people were not going to buy the game then why download it at all, as they mustn't want it much?

    because they can? inst any more complicated than that. ist not like torrenting a game is some grandiose effort, in fact, in quite a few cases its way easier then buying and running a legit copy.

    @layleeloo 2 on thats right, they weren't going to buy the game - BECAUSE they are happy and willing to steal it for free and rape the developers. To say it doesn't hurt if someone wasn't going to buy it anyway it bollocks - they were not going to but it BECAUSE they were going to pirate it. If piracy didn't exist, and they wanted the game, they would have had no choice but to buy it.

    yea, but since we dont live in lalaland piracy has existed and is going to exist. and yet people still dont fully understand "werent gonna by the game anyway" statement. yes, they werent gonna buy it because they were gonna pirate (no shit, mr. obvious). what people fail to understand is that if they cant pirate YOUR game, they skip it and pirate something else. people wrongly assume that inability to pirate a particular software will make pirates into paying customers (might be true in some small number of cases), while majority just go pirate something else. and since piracy exists and i dont see it disappearing, those pirates werent going to be (and majority arent going to be) paying customers.

  • Leolian #203 1 year ago

    Just trying to get my head around this. As things stand there's no file you can download as yet that will "open the doors" to your ps3? But, now the tools have been released, it will take a matter of days for one to appear that you can put onto a usb stick, boot up the ps3, run via the XMB and then your PS3 will be hacked? And sony won't be able to tell?

  • BritishBlue1 #204 1 year ago

    I have a question for anyone in the know: does this mean we'll be seeing widespread hacking and cheating on PSN too? I play online with my friends and brothers a lot so this is quite worrying.

  • gesadt #205 1 year ago

    cheating is certainly one of possible consequences of this. how widespread or not is another question, since only a small minority of total ps3 userbase going to/are using custom firmware, and part of those are gonna use psn and cheats

    edit: on the other hand actions such as cheating can have magnifying effect due to nature and visibility of it and appear more wide spread than it is, since 1 cheater on server can ruin experience for everyone.
    Edited by gesadt at 04/01/11 @ 16:24

  • DarkEula #206 1 year ago

    I think everyone is missing the point here. This is a tremendous case study.

    Sony had the right deterrent to piracy with OtherOS. Sony takes OtherOS away to prevent piracy and in turn gets hacked. What can be learned?

    1. Hacking and piracy are two distinct entities in consoles. On a PC, the system is already open so there is no need to hack. The Hacker and pirate line is blurred.
    2. Giving hackers what they want without opening the door to piracy works. It was not "great" PS3 security that deterred hackers. It was OtherOS.
    3. The idiot who decided to pull OtherOS should be fired.

    The more a system is locked down, the more interest there is in hacking it. I think in the future all consoles should have "OtherOS" capability.

  • PatTheMav #207 1 year ago

    Things I've learned from watching the full 45 minute presentation:

    1. XKCD has prophetic abilities
    2. Random numbers should be random, that goes for you too Sony - you're not above basic arithmetic laws..
    3. Xbox 360's software security still the best available as hacks so far have used modchips or patched firmwares for the DVD drive, still no homebrew code or linux runnable
    4. PS3s software security now nonexistent thanks to possibility to sign any piece of custom code
    5. Thanks to a degree in IT I even understood the gist of how the USB hack works

    Now for the people blaming the team for allowing piracy on the machines - with the same logic you would blame Albert Einstein for Hiroshima. But I'll give you this: It has and will always be one of the moral problems of science - whether or not to publish findings that could lead to unwanted results if applied by people with a lesser moral fiber..

  • Chufty #208 1 year ago

    Terrible news but a completely over the top and alarmist article. Richard is such a twat sometimes.

  • el_pollo_diablo #209 1 year ago

    @Darkeula
    But it was hacked (not completely, but heavily compromised) before Sony removed otheros. The removal of otheros was a direct result of this. Doesn't that somewhat undermine your other points?

    @PatTheMav
    "for the people blaming the team for allowing piracy on the machines - with the same logic you would blame Albert Einstein for Hiroshima" - I direct you to a couple of quotes...

    "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true."
    and:
    "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

    - both J. Robert Oppenheimer, father of the atomic bomb.

    :)

  • Lord_Gremlin #210 1 year ago

    Worthless effort. Those who buy their games will continue to do so. Pirates will appear, but since by now PS3 earns money with each unit sold piracy is not a problem.

  • orangpelupa #211 1 year ago

    hmm... maybe with PS4 sony will be more open...

    - out of the box support Other OS
    - out of the box support "Cydia-like" online store.

  • orangpelupa #212 1 year ago

    btw it seems people here saying that will still "buy" games. With "buy" implicating buying original games....

    in my country , most of the time the sentence "buying" games = buying pirated games. Even when i buy original BFBC2 my friends confused why i can play online, but they can't. They keep asking me what multiplayer crack i use lol.

    they don't understand that what i mean by "buy" is i buy original bfbc2.THats why i can play online and they dont lol.

    it seems my country is beyond "repair" lol. The piracy market is already mainstream and daily life. Even shopping mall not sell original games. Pirated games all you can see.

  • aphexstwin #213 1 year ago

    piracy is theft and hacking is the precursor to it. i despise anyone who thinks anything like this is a good thing for us gamers.

    video and movie sales have been hammered by pirates.

    as has music, but at least the bands can get something from touring, which is probably why ticket prices are proper mega these days.

    bah! depressed now. cheers george!

  • alcides #214 1 year ago

    despise me then.

    Piracy gives control to the consumers. It gives them choice.
    And no, the cinema goers did not turn themselves into filthy pirates. They just stopped buying tickets. Because prices sky rocketed. Where I live it used to be 3 euros for one viewing (20 francs), now it's 8. "Oh but the seats, the rent, the surround blah blah blah..." Cut it. They thought, that at the time their business model was most compromised, they could tell us to suck it deeper.

    And as to why DVDs don't sell : Pirates of the Caribbean, Spiderman, etc... It's like they try to rip us off while trying to shit in our open mouths.

    As for music, iTunes is successful. Music games used to be.

    Games? They are the biggest business of all. If a game gets no sales, it doesn't get downloaded illegally either. If THE MONEY which exisits in LIMITED quantity went elsewhere, it means it went elsewhere. Not that imaginary money from imaginary customers was really robbed from you.

    I won't crack the PS3 btw.

  • FutileResistor #215 1 year ago

    @doomed_soul89

    I meant the source for your assertion that PS3 multiplatform titles outsell 360. Since I was discussing multiplatform game sales in regard to software piracy, Sony's overall software sales is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I'm only interested in multiplat game sales.

    I wasn't randomly selecting dates for the analysis, the link I gave you was the only piece of proper analysis I could find about PS3 v 360 multiplat sales. Which was why I asked for more recent data.

    Thank you for the datasource but randomly selecting games to compare is not data.

    I went to VGchartz and at first I was just going to get a list of every multiplatform release in 2010 on 360 and PS3 and compare the sales. Clearly this would be a crazy amount of work. Instead I decided to go to the Worldwide Weekly Charts, and quickly noted down all the multiplat games which made it into the chart during 2010. Then I went to the same page doomed_soul89 used and got all the sales totals.

    So out of the 73 multiplatform games which sold enough to appear in the VGChartz worldwide weekly charts during 2010.

    40/73 sold better on 360
    6/73 sold the same
    27/73 sold better on PS3.

    Certainly a lot better than the previous data-set but multiplatform games are still selling more on 360.

    Can anyone answer the question this data poses. If piracy is a signicant factor in sales of games why are multiplatform games still selling more on the pirated platform?

    Since bits of paper with scribbled totals do not fit through my ISP's datapipes. I've put the data from which I derived the above results into an excel file for anybody who wants to play around with it.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 05/01/11 @ 08:38

  • Gormless #216 1 year ago

    Set of cunts would better getting jobs and real names, yours lovingly Mr Peter Gormless.

  • bluetoothion #217 1 year ago

    Question....

    if sony were to remove the update ability through USB sticks so that you could only update the machine through their dedicated servers or newer games carrying firmwares....how on earth could you upload something else on it? blacklisting previous firmwares with a period of time notice.

  • gesadt #218 1 year ago

    @bluetoothion if sony were to remove the update ability through USB sticks so that you could only update the machine through their dedicated servers or newer games carrying firmwares....how on earth could you upload something else on it? blacklisting previous firmwares with a period of time notice.

    ps3 also has bluetooth, afaik wich is how it was/is possible to change or downgrade firmware using some smartphones, wtih no need for usb dongles (before Fail0verflow hack)
    disabling usb wouldnt do anything, since you could probably load up needed hacks through dvd or even ethernet (which actually was demonstrated byFail0verflow in 27c3 conference).

  • FutileResistor #219 1 year ago

    Out of the 7 games you linked to in your post the only one which is not in my dataset is Dragonball Raging Blast.

    My impression from charts and reports was always that on multiplatform games the 360 seemed to sell more. My analysis of the data backs up my assertion.

    If you wish to assert that the PS3 is selling more multiplatform games you are free to do your own analysis to test whether that is true.

    Again for the question I'm trying to answer platform exclusives are completely irrelevant. Since the data I have used is from the last 12 months, I'm not sure why you bring up the fact that the 360 had a higher install base years ago.

    Again I have already acknowledged that this is a gross simplification (see my earlier post), but as I said we have no way to control for other variables. What we do have is two similar platforms with comparable install bases. We can ask the question 'how significant is piracy on sales numbers?' and by comparing multiplatform game sales we can get a rough answer.

    Everything else being equal, if software piracy had a significant effect on sales, you would expect 360 multi-platform games to sell in far lower numbers than their PS3 counterparts. This does not seem to be the case.

    From my anaylsis, the top 18% of multi-platform titles in 2010 seem to sell in comparable numbers on both platforms with a slight edge to the 360. Piracy does not seem to affect sales very much.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 06/01/11 @ 08:24

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #220 1 year ago

    "Piracy has been PROVEN to lose sales."

    Great point, except for it being complete and utter 100% bollocks, of course. Can you direct us to this "proof", rather than to someone's empty, groundless opinions? I'm (or at least, I was) a huge New Order fan but I wouldn't give you 2p for the useless piles of shite that were their last two albums. They didn't sell badly because of piracy, they sold badly because they were fucking awful.

    Sales of singles have set new records in every one of the last three years, despite piracy being easier than ever before. Single sales in 2010 grew 6% to an all-time high of 162m. (Sales of albums have fallen, because people no longer have to fork out for crappy filler tracks. People still pay for the stuff they think is worth the money.)

  • gylo #221 1 year ago

    This potentially means that the system can be exploited to completely de-value the trophy system which completely sucks. This could be done by releasing some dodgy game which unlocks a shit load of trophies from all sorts of games.

    I'd rather pay for my games instead of dick around with hacks, many of us are now adults with disposable income, games are also cheaper today than 10 years ago.

    There will probably also be issues taking your PS3 on-line after Sony have sorted themselves out so I'll wait and see to see the how this one plays out!
    Edited by gylo at 06/01/11 @ 22:53

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #222 1 year ago

    "I would think that proves piracy hurts sales"

    What does? The load of rambling, incoherent, source-free, fact-free rubbish you just posted? You should probably think again.

  • FutileResistor #223 1 year ago

    doomed_soul89

    I'm beginning to wonder if you don't understand logical argument or are merely trolling.

    You originally asserted that I was wrong to believe that Xbox 360 outsold the PS3 on multi-platform titles.

    I showed you that you were wrong by linking to some actual data that showed that 360 outsold the PS3 on multiplatform titles.

    You say my data is out of date and come back with links to just 7 titles to 'prove' that the PS3 sells more multiplatform titles.

    I analyse the top 30 multiplatform weekly worldwide data for 2010, this turns out to be 73 titles and again show that although the gap has closed, the Xbox 360 is still selling more multi-platform titles than the PS3.

    Now, despite the fact that a dataset of just 7 titles was enough for you to prove that the PS3 is selling more multi-platform games than the 360. Apparently, my data-set of 73 titles despite being ten times more than your own, is now not enough to prove the opposite.

    Clearly speculation and opinion which supports your argument must be more valuable than actual data which supports mine.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 07/01/11 @ 12:39

  • FutileResistor #224 1 year ago

    @doomed_soul89

    My analysis shows that for the top 18% of titles based on the best worldwide data I can get my hands on, the datasource pointed out by yourself, I might add. Piracy does not seem to have a significant effect on sales at the top of the market.

    I have little reason to believe that this pattern would not hold for the bottem 82% of the market. You may strongly disagree but without actually gathering the data and doing the analysis your guess is as good as mine.

    You can certainly argue that there are many confounding factors which mean that my conclusions may not be accurate, but since I conceded that point in my very first post and in every subsequent post. I have already said that the situation is a gross simplification it is a little needless to carry on arguing the point. Despite being a gross simplification, I don't see anyone else trying to tackle the question with some actual data.

    Speculation and opinion is easy and fun but does not move the argument on. In the spirit of what you seem to like doing, I'll do some speculation myself.

    The real install base of the 360 is actually grossly inflated. For about a year before MS accepted that there was a RROD problem and extended their warranty to 3 years, many people including myself had to buy another Xbox 360. Many other people re-bought 360s which failed even after the extended warranty because they didn't know about it. If you add up all the millions of rebought 360s, the millions of pirate consoles in countries where piracy is the norm and the millions of pirate consoles where piracy is not the norm. I estimate the actual real legitimate install base of the 360 is only about 30 million compared to the 40+ million PS3s. Which makes it even more impressive that the 360 is managing to sell slightly more multiplatform games than the PS3. Now either 360 owners as a group buy more software than PS3 owners or some of those pirates are also buying software, either way it seems that software piracy is not having a significant effect on sales of multi-platform games. 8-)

    As I said speculation is fun and easy to do but it is not data. Opinion is not fact.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 07/01/11 @ 13:18

  • FutileResistor #225 1 year ago

    '... mine was a random sample, yours was inherent flawed, which means mine might be accurate...'

    I almost spat out my tea reading this.

    The extent of your ignorance in the area of statistical theory is staggering. First of all a sample size of 7 from a population of 400+ is literally useless. Secondly, if you truly believe that your sample was random in the technical statistical sense of the word, it would demonstrate a lack of understanding of statistics at the most basic of levels. It does begin to explain your inability to separate actual data from wild speculation.

    Sampling Theory 101

    Random is tricky. To get a truly random sample for the population of you say, over 400 multi-platform titles released, this is what you would have to do.

    1. Get a list of all multi-platform titles for 2010.
    2. Assign a number to every game on the list.
    3. Use a random number table to select your sample game from the population. (You could use a random number generator
    program but strictly speaking, computers can't really do random numbers. As I said random is tricky.)
    4. Remove each sampled game from the population.
    5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you get to your desired sample size.

    Statistically, for a truly random sample, for every sample game you select, every single one of the 400+ population of games has to have an equal chance of being selected from the population.

    My population of 73 games represents only 18% of a 400 game population and yet you have managed to pick 6 games from my 18% and only 1 game from the 82% (327).

    This is not surprising because when you selected the first 7 multi-platform games that came into your head, you would not have even known about a good proportion, say, 250+ of those multi-platform games. The average person can keep about 7 to 11 bits of information in their head at once, the range is about 5 to 20 bits of information. Even if you knew every game in the list and could do the impossible and keep 400+ games in your mind at the same time. It would be a psychological impossibilty for any human mind to give an equal chance to every game to be selected. That's not how minds work, there will be games that are more prominent in your mind, thinking of the first game may already be generating links to other games and many other factors. This is why we use random number tables to generate random samples.

    So you only knew of maybe about 150 of the multi-platform games that came out in 2010, so you've already ignored about 65%+ of the games you need to consider to get a random sample. When you selected your 'random' sample, you were selecting from a skewed population of the better known games and some lesser known games that you were interested in. But of course brains can't do random, so even with a knowledge of 150 games, most of the games you recall will be drawn from the selection of the games better known to you or that interest you. This explains why you managed to select 6 games from the top selling 18% and only 1 game from the bottem 82%. Clearly your 'random' sample was not random at all in the statistical sense.

    In order to get a random sample, you would have to do what I set out above. To obtain a random sample at the 95% confidence level with a 10% margin of error from a population of 400 would require a sample size of 78, at a 5% margin of error this would require a sample size of 197. This would represent a good 4 to 8 hours of work. Frankly, far more work than I was prepared to do to back up a point on a random forum comment.

    Instead given the data available to me, I chose something which was quick for me to do. It is precisely because I understand statistics that I have only made claims which are reasonably backed up by the data. It is also why I made my dataset available and my methodology transparent and open to inspection. It is far more than you have done.

    To be told by someone who does not even have a rudimentary grasp of statistical methods that 'you need to understand a bit more math then (sic) you do' is one of the most ludicrous things I've heard in years. It's like Ronald Fisher being told that he doesn't understand statistics by an eight year old.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 08/01/11 @ 14:20

  • FutileResistor #226 1 year ago

    'I will give you piracy doesn't seem to effect the top selling games in NA but thats about it'

    This was all that that I claimed my analysis seemed to show and also that I had no reason to believe the rest of the games would not show a similar pattern of sales.

    The North America comment does not make sense. My data was taken from the worldwide data. Is there any reason to believe that VGchartz tracking of sales data would be any less accurate in the major markets of Japan, UK and Europe than the US data.

    This leaves Africa and Asia and it would not be surprising for this data to be inaccurate, and possibly in the Middle East data would also be less accurate. But together they represent less than 10% of the market.

    Given that the majority of the population of many African, Asian, and Latin American countries are living on a few dollars a day. Does piracy affect sales in these countries where people are barely earning enough to survive? Any piracy going on of $60 dollar games in these places just illustrates my point. These people were never going to buy the games anyway, they couldn't afford to.
    Edited by FutileResistor at 08/01/11 @ 15:10

  • S3P3HR #227 1 year ago

    I don't care it enable piracy ! Sony can't disable a function of my own ps3 . When I bought my ps3 other OS was most important too me and it is as important now as it was before .

    Its funny I always thought Sony was best choice but when I think in the past years that I've bought T.V. and Laptop and ... I didn't go for Sony . You know why ? cuz there has been always a better brand .

    Now Sony disable your system and when you try to get what you paid for it sues your ass ...

    I'm never buying Sony again ...