Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3

By Richard Leadbetter Published 1 November, 2009

Forza old vs. Forza new vs. Gran Turismo.

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Digital Foundry has already taken a look at core aspects of the technology powering Forza Motorsport 3 in the initial demo tech breakdown, but in this feature we're expanding our analysis of the game to cover both its past and its potential future.

It's particularly apt for a racing game that Turn 10's franchise has been built in the spirit of fierce competition. In terms of gameplay features, the Forza team works tirelessly in bringing the best of its racing rivals into its game along with innovations of its own, but in terms of the rendering technology - the sort of stuff we get excited about - it's clear that Gran Turismo is the standard to which the developer aspires. There's a sizeable gulf in terms of image quality between Forza 2 and its sequel, and it's clear that the gold standard set in rendering tech by Polyphony Digital is one of the key motivators the team had in making Forza 3 look as good as it does.

First things first. At the core, the Forza and Gran Turismo games are a celebration of the automobile, and since the GT franchise migrated onto the PS2, Polyphony Digital has taken great delight in producing visually astonishing representations of each and every car it models, from the econo-box you have parked in the drive all the way up to the most ultra-expensive of hypercars.

The inherent beauty of the car itself is tied in closely with the presentation of the game. Polyphony gets this, but Turn 10 didn't quite make the grade in Forza 2 with a bog-standard, some might even say rather unattractive front end. Things have changed in the sequel with a much more beautiful, stylised menu system that boasts some wonderful modelling work on the cars themselves. The game itself allows us to compare and contrast the advances in the models via their respective photo modes.

You can pause either Forza title at any point in-game and take a shot for your collection. In this mode, you're getting to see the highest detail car models available in the game, higher even than what you see in the replay mode.

'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza2-photo1
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza3-photo1
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza2-photo2
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza3-photo2

The highest level-of-detail (LOD) models are found in photo mode. Here, as in all the comparison shots in this feature, Forza 2 is on the left, while its sequel is to the right.

You don't get to see these actual models in-game - the versions you see there will be lower level-of-detail (LOD) models - but the chances are that they will all be derived from these base assets and it's clear to see that, rather than just re-using the old assets from Forza 2 with new lighting effects, Turn 10 has gone the extra mile and produced brand new geometry meshes boasting a lot more detail. Edges are more rounded and realistic-looking, incidental details are a lot more closely defined.

Speaking of which, during our first analysis of the demo, we pointed out that the initial intro views of the player-car appear to be using a higher LOD model than the replays - something we thought was rather odd, and maybe even a bug. It's far more likely to be a practical issue. In those introductory fly-bys, Turn 10 has complete control over the camera and the zoomed-in view effectively limits the chance to see much of the other cars. In short, the intro car shots are most likely using the highest LOD photo-level modes, simply because the engine has the budget to use them without compromising the solid 30FPS frame-rate used in these sections.

So, Turn 10 is on the record as saying that big chunks of the rendering pipeline were re-worked and re-tweaked for the sequel, so in terms of basic brass tacks, what has the team done? Checking out the improvements on a superficial level is relatively straightforward as nigh-on all of the content found in Forza Motorsport 2 has been retained for the sequel. Similar to the ethos of Polyphony Digital, the team appears to be producing a bank of accomplished content it can come back to and improve for any potential sequel.

We ran laps of five circuits common to both Forza 2 and the new game, and found that the improvements are striking. Here's a short video edit, and we'll go into specifics shortly after.

Slowed down to 30 per cent speed, here we compare the same car/circuit combos between Forza 2 and the new sequel. The differences are remarkable, with a significant graphical upgrade in almost all areas.

Perhaps the biggest, most impactful upgrade in Forza 3 is a massive improvement in terms of the overall lighting scheme. The game's predecessor looks almost completely flat in comparison, and the issues with the lighting are a mixture of a lack of realism combined with some poor artistic choices.

'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza2-1
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza3-1
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza2-2
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza3-2

The improvements over Forza 2 (left) are many and varied, but the most immediately dramatic concerns the lighting model.

There's an almost night-and-day difference between the two games here. Starting with the cars on-screen, you can see an almost mirror-like finish to the automobiles in Forza 2. Indeed, practically all of the lighting on the cars is based on a notion of perfect reflection that you'd never see in reality. For the sequel, Turn 10 has used two different techniques to add a bit of sheen to the metal: a specular map has been deployed, and the white-level on the reflection map has been clamped so as to make the effect a touch more realistic. At the same time, specular aliasing on the cars themselves is less apparent. The addition of a specular component has also been extended to the roads too - a subtle, but very important addition in improving lighting.

The global illumination component has been similarly improved, with indirect lighting on the rear of the blue Ferrari and more detail retained in the shadowed area. Looking at this comparison of a single image, it's fairly clear that the new sequel has improved on its predecessor in almost every respect. However, it is noteworthy that the crowd level has been significantly dialled back - this is saving on fill-rate and overdraw (overlaid textures) and it's a theme we'll be returning to a bit later in this piece. Since each member of the crowd is also a 3D model, we can also assume that there's a geometry saving in there too.

'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza2-laguna1
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza3-laguna1
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza2-laguna2
'Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3' Screenshot forza3-laguna2

The stark lighting in the Laguna Seca race course allows us to pinpoint a number of other changes and improvements in the sequel.

The world-famous Laguna Seca race course is another common element between the two Xbox 360 Forza titles. Once again, we have the same car and the same circuit, and once more, a range of improvements become apparent between the two games.

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Comments (77) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Pro_Gamer #1 2 years ago

    FIIIIIIRST BITCHES!

  • Geordiemp #2 2 years ago

    Xbox 360 architecture is its ultra-fast 10MB of eDRAM.....10MB is not enough to contain a native 720p framebuffer with 2xMSAA

    you get a 50 per cent resolution boost up to 1280x1080....but AA drops to 2x MSAA....On top of that, GT also manages to process twice the number of cars as Forza.....

    Quick cut and paste summary, so how does Poly GT do it is more interesting ?????

  • Negotiator #3 2 years ago

    Look how long they have been working on GT5, thats why it looks so good, Forza 3 was done in 2 years.

  • Geordiemp #4 2 years ago

    How long they work on it is a point to demonstrate it is difficult, BUT still how does GT do it ?

  • Xerx3s #5 2 years ago

    With enough time, knowledge, manpower and other resources there is very little that you can't do on the technical front. Clearly a strategy that GG and PD seem to embrace.

  • Roarrr #6 2 years ago

    Nice article. I still play 50% FM3 and 50% GT5P. For me FM3 has a good careers struture. GT5P by its nature is not a full game and I've completed all the events. For whatever reason I prefer time trials and battling laptimes on GT5P over FM3, haven't a clue why. Both are excellent but if they could only combine advantages, we'd have a superb console racing titles on our hands.

  • o_ci2007 #7 2 years ago

    @Pro-Gamer good for you. There are a lot of haters here who are going to give you minuses. I hold the record for the most minuses (-197) I think you might beat it today. Well done.

  • Roarster #8 2 years ago

    @o_ci2007 - I've got Pro-Gamer on ignore but you've got me intrigued as to what he's said. I'm going to guess he slags both Forza and GT's graphics while bigging up Pippa Funnel's Kart Racing. Am I close?

  • Digital_Forge #9 2 years ago

    @Roarster

    Not quite, his exact words are:

    "FIIIIIIRST BITCHES!"

    I can't decide if he intended the multiple I or was just climaxing at the time.

  • Xerx3s #10 2 years ago

    No.

  • king2001 #11 2 years ago

    I've helped Pro on his way but I can't see him reaching the lofty heights of -197. Still if we all work together...

  • DUFFKING #12 2 years ago

    Didn't realise the graphics had such a step up. Guess it's the kind of thing you only notice when they're run side by side, although admittedly I only played the demo of F2 :p

  • Keivz #13 2 years ago

    I wish NFS: Shift was included in this analysis. Granted on the consoles it only runs at 30 fps but I've been playing at 60 fps on the PC and personally I think the in game car models look better than FM3 and at the very least on par with GT5P. There are comparison videos/shots on the web that make my point.

  • Darren #14 2 years ago

    @Keivz - I've been playing a lot of SHIFT on the PC too at 1920x1200 with 8xAA running at mostly 60 fps so it's quite a shock when I return to Forza 3. Granted the game looks fine in terms of details and framerate, it does suffer from a lack of texture filtering and some really bad aliasing at times giving the game a rough appearance. That's the price for running the game at 60 fps though, in this case it was probably the right one as it is a simulation and as such the gameplay and physics takes prior over visuals.

  • sargulesh #15 2 years ago

    Gl3n got more than -197 on one comments thread. Sorry.

  • Darren #16 2 years ago

    Forza 3 is arguably the best-looking racing game on the Xbox 360, looking far superior to the majority of racing titles for the platform than run at half the frame-rate."

    I'd respectfully disagree with that.

    For one thing, those racing games that run at 30 fps are able to throw more eye-candy and polygons around per second than Forza 3 can and add in speed enhancing effects such as motion-blurring which adds to the thrill of racing fast cars. Forza 3 can only manage all those in the replays, which run at 30 fps. So my vote for the best looking racer on the Xbox 360 personally would go to Project Gotham Racing 4 which had far better environmental detail, better cockpit views and way less aliasing. It also had weather effects, including a cool but not entirely convincing wet look for the vehicles, and night races not present in Forza 3 at all. Again, achievable because the game runs at 30 fps with motion-blurring.

  • Mr_Dodger #17 2 years ago

    What people often forget is that graphics are not the ultimate factor in a great game. GT may have a slightly higher level of visual polish, but in virtually every other area it's a couple of generations behind Forza 3 at this moment in time.

    Of course, GT5 might change all that radically, but not if the design philosophy in GT PSP is anything to go by.

    At the end of the day when these two are constantly vying for that top podium spot, it's the gamers who win.

  • davisorle #18 2 years ago

    Its fine really... Forza took less than 3 years to be done and Turn 10 has been working like 1/5 of the years on their Driving Sim and do huge progress and their titles are fun and great other than great looking. When you have a Poluphony throwing in dmg model which isnt as good and also an extra 600 Cars without dmg model etc nor half the quality of the rest which proves even more the obvious and what they wouldnt hide ( stated in the article abut the dmg model ), that they do it just to show they have something extra from Forza 3.. Where is the realism and selfrespect of a developer with such experience as Polyphony that turn to those poor options? Where is the realism and stability of a racing sim when you are telling me that ill go buy your product but 60% of your cars have not any close to realistic impact on the game?

    Over the past years, other than the bit better looking graphics, GT has been the same game over and over and now its been 5 years of developing a game that tries to "prove" its more worth than a game created within half that time from a way less experienced developer. Talks by itself. I dont like racing games. I tend to quit on them after a few tries but Forza 3 has kept me a bit extra rounds so far ( i dont have time to play so racing instead of an action kind of game isnt my preffered genre.. ).

    And stop wondering is 360 is as strong as the PS3. Whenpossible its been proved so far that 360 plays and looks better up till now. if Turn 10 decides to go Sony as well and optimize for the PS3 they will tell us if possible to make this look better for the PS3. Still not understandable? well its still not easy to say even for them. Like mentioned in the article Turn 10 dedicated more time to evolve the magefrom many angles other than the graphical, that Poly tends to do with GT series. So still a remake of Forza or PS3 wouldnt be a legit proof of the capabilities.

    Anyhow.. I dont know how more simple to put it for those so persistant on the matter. What matters is that Forza 3 is a great game and worth the buy for anyone that liks racing games the slightest. For the haters or the ones not capable to afford a second console and feel forced to be haters, well go wait, like you have been doing so many years till now, for GT5. Noone really cares.. I dont doupt it will be a good game.

    @Darren
    Forza 3 has indeed way better detailed enviroments/racetracks than PGR4. I have them both. Ofc PGR4 was amazing when it came out and was also the best looking racing game when released but now its Forza 3. As for night modes it doesnt innterest me personally. I dont play racing games much. PGR4 i gave up after the 5th time I inserted the DVD in the tray. I have issues with games that bore me and racing is a genre that does that tooooo easy :) So I dont even have time enough to consider about nightdriving.

  • TRUTH #19 2 years ago

    GT 5 has had 5yrs development time!!!! - played the demo (GT 5 Pro...), but I found Dirt 2 looked better with more effects - though this ran at 30fps, I couldn't really notice GT 5 at 60 fps...The damage model surpassed both games in Dirt 2 too.

  • photoboy #20 2 years ago

    @semitope

    Games development doesn't really work like that, yes Forza 2 would have been their starting point for Forza 3, but if they'd been able to work on one single game the whole time it's likely they could have spent more time optimising the engine. Whenever you have to get code finished for a looming deadline you have to stop experimenting with optimisations and streamlining your code and just work towards finishing the game and getting it bug free and ready for release. Turn 10 will have had to do that at least 4 times over the past 2 games (two full games, two Xbox Live demos, maybe trade show demos?).

    One of the reasons E3 was scaled back was because developers were getting sick of stopping all progress on a game just to put together a demo. So while Turn 10 will have benefited from being able to take the Forza 2 engine and enhance it, they probably could have done even more if they hadn't had to stop and release Forza 2.

  • patchbox360 #21 2 years ago

    i love these justification articles

  • SFKosmo #22 2 years ago

    Going from 720p to 1080p is a (roughly) 100% improvement in resolution, not 50%. The other way around is a 50% reduction.

    EDIT: Gah, it's 1280x1080, not 1920x1080 - thanks for the correction, semitope.
    Edited by 1 at 01/11/09 @ 13:30

  • Geordiemp #23 2 years ago

    Dont people on here realise that the development time is in the ENGINE. Once you have a cool engine you can re-use it for other similar type of games, but dev time for using a developed engine will be 6-12 months if the engine is perfected.

    Same goes for the UC2 engine.....so sony first party will have superior racing and shooters....etc. M$ should do a similar strategy or they will be left behind...Seems smart to me....

  • TRUTH #24 2 years ago

    5 years for GT 5 - I think they mentioned Sept 2010, that is a looooooong time for development!...GTP was release to actually coup some cost back due to the massive cost evolved with GTS production.

  • Retroid #25 2 years ago

    It would be nice if this article could just be treated as a tech comparison and not as bait to fanboy rants.

  • Retroid #26 2 years ago

    The GT games have always been a fine technical showcase.

    It's the gameplay, specifically the AI which I've had issue with in the past.

  • Retroid #27 2 years ago

    I know, but I'm an idealist :(

    So far as I'm concerned gaming is great and I invest in all the formats because I don't want to miss the cool stuff each one has to offer.

  • waggy79 #28 2 years ago

    ^ this

  • Skurmedel #29 2 years ago

    Not played Forza 3, but going by the images, both PGR 4 and Shift looks better. Still, maybe Forza 3 is a much better racer than those.

  • hiscore #30 2 years ago

    Forza 3 with all assists OFF drives easier than Forza 2 with practically everything ON. Some may call this a "wonderful way of driving", for me it is a leap too far towards accessability. Maybe this is 'simulation anno 2009', but it is not simulation to me.

  • JayScott #31 2 years ago

    Dear hiscore,

    You are so hardcore. I wish I was as hardcore as you.

    Thanks,
    Jay

  • photoboy #32 2 years ago

    @semitope #27

    Yeah, if GT5P and GT PSP were made by the same team working on GT5 then it would definitely have slowed things down, especially switching between platforms from the PS3 to PSP and back!

    I suspect they probably took some of the GT5 team and maybe hired some extra guys and spun them off as a new team to make GT PSP and then absorbed them back into the GT5 team when they were done. Possibly when GT PSP was near deadline they took more people off GT5 to help finish it. That could explain why GT5 seemed like it was going to be released this year and then was delayed again.

  • Calgon #33 2 years ago

    Nice article Richard.

    Not much to argue with there, different devs, different priorities.

    I was suprised to read that its not actually a new engine afterall --rather Forza2s engine reworked-- Im sure if they had the time(or the option) they'd have loved to start an engine from scratch and implement everything from the ground up that they wanted in there(which is the way it's supposed to be done). Still they got some significant improvement by re-writing parts of it and deserve alot of credit for what they acheived in 2 years, especially when its obvious the focus was more on the content and features side than it was on the tech side so it's obvious what they spent more time on.

    I wonder if there will be another Turn10 game on 360 before this gen draws to a close.

    N@ Well it depends which camera mode you are using in the replay, only spectator mode runs at 30fps and even then 4xAA(as good as it gets this gen for consoles, unless they include other forms of AA in software) isn't going mean jaggie free for any game. Id disagree with you on the whole though, Forza3 looks pretty darn impressive in its own right.

  • Vic #34 2 years ago

    At the end of the day, GT5P is 18 months old and it still looks better than Forza 3 which is disappointing.

    God only knows what it will look like in the face of GT5.

  • Scimarad #35 2 years ago

    I think you missed the whole part where they said it was very impressive. Why the hell would you care that another game on another system looks marginally prettier. Are you afraid a GT owner is going to point and laugh or something?

  • Badassbab #36 2 years ago

    It's a shame GT5 wasn't at the Eurogamer Expo as Forza was there in spades (and very popular). It looked good on the large screens. Forza 4 should be made on a completely new game engine if they want to compete on the graphics front but then it will mean waiting aaaages. Strange the feature didn't mention Forza's 360hz update (highest on console).

  • Vic #37 2 years ago

    If GT5 comes out with more cars on track, a superior damage system and better graphics, Forza will begin to look outdated (though it'll still be a good game).

    I think 2/3 of those are guaranteed, and Forza's damage system is far from perfect so GT5 might be the better game even without it.

  • Breach #38 2 years ago

    I imagine GT5 will look like 'the second coming'.
    The physics will probably be equally as impressive.

    Lets just hope there is a game in there somewhere too.

    ( EDIT: And not just the original GT but better looking)


    Edited by 1 at 01/11/09 @ 19:23

  • GamesConnoisseur #39 2 years ago

    Honestly, scoring wins for your preferred platform and ignoring what the article had said is tiring to read!

    Article did focus on the tech and how the differences had improved the third game. I had said I will purchase GT5 when it is out probably this time next year, irrespective of the actualities, I AM able to enjoy the game right now and I can say good work to the lads.

    Likewise the article could have done more to covers the physics side, regarding the boasted 360 Mhz and various calculations per second.

    Each of us has our preferences, but personally was bored with PGR4 and F3 felt much more smooth and responsive to drive and play.

    Visual IS always just one part of what makes a game, F3 is no ugly ducklings but withs it physics it seemed almost one of the most 'brainy' out there.

    I do notices details of how AI, spawnings and triggers affect games but most of us just seem to be in love with how pretty things are?! And if the articles or comments score a win for our 'side'!

  • Vic #40 2 years ago

    @ Breach

    Word is the physics are something special, so I hope they've had time to sharpen up the A.I.

    @ GamesConnoisseur

    Not sure if there's a need for your tirade. And what are you basing the October European 2010 launch date on?

  • secombe #41 2 years ago

    I would be more interested to see a tech comparison regarding AI and physics, even compared to something 'old' like GTR2 on the PC. Fancy graphics are all well and good, but this constant need to push those boundaries (and everyones need to talk about them) are really hurting the bits that matter in a driving/racing game, that being the handling and the AI. This need not be for the benefit of sim-heads either, remotely realistic handling and good competitive AI should benefit everyone.

    I actually played a few versions of GT today, as much as I enjoy timetrials etc, it confirmed to me that all those years of development have been adding cars and remodelling old ones...and very little else.

    I appreciate that graphics are 'easy' in terms of analysis, but there are ways and means of comparing the core game mechanics (maybe get some guys in who have driven some of these cars on track or at all in real life - I imagine the guys at Evo could tell you fairly quickly which feels 'right'), it would certainly make a nice change from shadows and textures.
    Edited by 1 at 01/11/09 @ 21:12

  • Collymilad #42 2 years ago

    "So... no more 'Forza looks beta than GT5:p' please chaps.

    It doesn't and its now 'official'."

    Who gives a crap? There's practically nothing in it and if GT5 retains things from the previous games (e.g. absolutely SHIT AI) which it probably will, Forza is the better game. I'd rather have a more robust racing package (including taking into account the actual experience of driving the cars) than one that looks slightly better. We have had 2 forza games and the console is a year older.

  • metalangel #43 2 years ago

    When you're fighting your car to stay on the track through the penultimate bend, with your opponent in the lead just three car lengths ahead, you don't give a toss whether you're playing Forza 3 or Gran Turismo 1.
    Edited by 2 at 01/11/09 @ 21:42

  • zztopp #44 2 years ago

    Anyone who still thinks PGR4 is the best looking 360 racer must be smoking something, as that game looks last gen with mucho aliasing and mediocre textures (with albeit nice environment effects).

    I would be interested in knowing how the physics of Forza3 compare to GT5/P, as Turn 10 had supposedly devoted a lot of time to getting the handling and physics just right (and apparently a lot of 360s resources are devoted to it).

  • Badassbab #45 2 years ago

    Semitope-

    No one thinks that but in order to best GT5 in the graphics department or at least get close Turn 10 would need to spend a lot longer on the game with a new game engine from scratch but like the article mentions the focus was elsewhere and if they wanted GT5 beating graphics as well as all the features in the game, that would take ages and I doubt such a game could be made ready in time for Xmas. And the screenshots don't do Forza justice, looks much better in motion.

  • Zappa #46 2 years ago

    GT5P owns forza

    the lighting is so much better and has double the cars!!! LOL, mariocart has like only 8 cars.

  • Trejser #47 2 years ago

    This article compares GT5P (not GT5) to Forza 3. GT5P was developed in 1 year (GTHD: December 24, 2006, GT5P: December 13, 2007). Forza 3 wasn't done from scratch, clearly it's updated F2 engine. Fanboys...

  • photoboy #48 2 years ago

    One thing I think the article missed is the link-up feature Forza 2 had, that allowed up to three Xbox systems to power 3 screens simultaneously for a wrap-around display. As far as I know that has been dropped from Forza 3 (I can't see anything about it in the manual or in the game). It's shame as it was a fun feature, although it's probably something used by about 1% of all Forza players, so it's not surprising they dropped it.

  • BBIAJ #49 2 years ago

    I'm pretty sure that multi-screen mode is still in there.

  • photoboy #50 2 years ago

    Any idea how to activate it? I want to try connecting up my brother's 360 and seeing what it's like. The in-car view should be especially good.

  • Calgon #51 2 years ago

    @Trejser, I think it's true that its unfairly assumed(because we havent been given an exact date) that they start work on the next GT as soon as they've finnished the last one(assets can be started before theyve even got the hardware though) but by the same measure theres people pretending PSP versions have anything to PS3 development too.

    Series creator Kazunori Yamauchi has clearly stated that "the teams working on the games are not influencing each other...the schedule for the main title will not be affected in any way by the development and release of the game for the PSP Go!."

    There's also some bad translation going around, Pologue was built on the GT5 engine, its a sampler of the main game, thats why it has GT5 in the title. So its not as if they are totally starting from scratch after Prologue(even if they did start the engine from scratch again which I doubt) it will obviously be improved but thats to be expected.

    "The game was first revealed at E3 2006 under the name Vision Gran Turismo. In an April 2008 interview, game creator Kazunori Yamauchi revealed that 150 people had worked on Gran Turismo 5 for three years, with all of Polyphony Digital's 120 employees working on GT5, and the game costing 50 times more to develop than 1997's Gran Turismo.[5]"

    Also where game engines are concerned(which are taking longer and longer to make with each generation; would be interesting if someone could compile a list of the most well known game engines and the development time spent on them to give us all a clearer picture of just how things are looking in that area of the industry) its actually better starting from scratch most of the time judging by the many examples of developer comments on the subject, it seems to be always cited as a reason for their boasted improvements in performance over the last game.
    Edited by 1 at 01/11/09 @ 23:56

  • Xerx3s #52 2 years ago

    "This article compares GT5P (not GT5) to Forza 3. GT5P was developed in 1 year (GTHD: December 24, 2006, GT5P: December 13, 2007). Forza 3 wasn't done from scratch, clearly it's updated F2 engine."

    Oh.

    "Fanboys..."

    Lay off the irony please, there is only so much one can take.

  • altitude2k #53 2 years ago

    Forget about the graphics for a moment. Forza 3 is an absolutely amazing GAME. It's accessible, scaleable, extensive and most importantly of all it is a helluva lot of FUN.

    Hopefully PD will take some heed with regards to this and realise that being a technical showcase for the power of the PS3 means diddly-squat when people start to get bored with it.

    Photorealistic graphics are all well and good, but it should be a secondary concern in my opinion.

  • Zephro #54 2 years ago

    Well wading in amongst fanboys aside, I think people are missing the real meaning of this. Even if GT5 comes out on top by a marginal amount (or not, whatever) Forza3 has shifted the market in this way:

    Gran Turismo is no longer a killer app to shift consoles.

    Now that someone with a 360 but no PS3 can play Forza 3 there is far less point in buying a whole other console just for GT5. Forza 1 and 2 never really did this.

    Oh and for personal preference I hate dualshocks so much prefer paying on a 360 pad. But I do have big clumsy hands and like to use shoulder triggers as analogue controls.

  • Rich72 #55 2 years ago

    well i'm a bit pissed to be honest as i can't play F3 due to sunset peninsular consistently crashing my game. Loved it up until then.

  • linea #56 2 years ago

    Can I add a quick +1 to the request for some kind of physics model comparison/analysis please?

    It is, after all, the real heart of the games- although the graphics of Forza 3 are definitely a step up from Forza 2 it's in the intangible but very definitely improved sense of mass in the cars that it really improves on its predecessor.

    Would probably be quite time-consuming but might be possible (I don't know if other games offer the reams of telemetry information that Forza does but one could at least have a go at doing a F2/F3 comparison).

  • JensonJet #57 2 years ago

    Who cares what the graphics look like in Gran Tourismo... the PlayStation could project holographic images but having to use that shitty old pad is unbearable. Used one at a friends. How badly designed are those triggers?

    Aren't people sick of reading/typing the same old crap on this ridiculous GT-Forza argument?

    If graphics are all that matter, then get rid of your consoles and buy an expensive gaming PC. Or perhaps wait 20 years and you might actually find yourself satisfied with graphics. It's no wonder developers tend to pump out the same old formulaic games. They've barely got time to get creative, instead have to spend all their time improving graphics. I can only imagine how amazing AI would be now if they'd not had to invest so heavily in the visual department. Regardless of system or developer or game, videogames all look artificial and computery. If Hollywood movies still struggle there's little hope for consoles or PCs matching expectations in the forseeable future.

    Back to Forza... I have a question about the Leaderboards. Does anyone know what the icon is referencing in the last column, after ABS and traction, etc? I always drive the same; no assists, never touch that horrid rewind feature and am always careful to post clean laps.

  • tachometer #58 2 years ago

    Forza 3 misses out on the little animations that certain cars should have, for example the Bugatti Veyron should deploy a rear spoiler at speed and during high speed breaking, even the VW Corrado I believe should have a spoiler that pops up after 50 mph or something.

  • Zephro #59 2 years ago

    I'm not saying GT5 won't sell in spades. What I am saying is that those of us who already invested in an xbox and want a good car game with hundreds of cars tracks, good physics, graphics etc. We won't need to go get a playstation for that anymore, which was the case in PS2 days GT was the only show in town and could sell the whole hardware unit on it's back.

    It doesn't really apply to those with a PS3 or die-hard GT fans clearly.

  • DrDamn #60 2 years ago

    @Farticus
    The tearing in GT5p is readily more apparent on particular tracks and under particularly conditions - which may explain some of it too. Some tracks are perfectly fine but others suffer quite badly.

  • ChromeMud #61 2 years ago

    The graphics of Forza3 have improved over Forza 2, with lighting being the most obvious to my eye over the blandness in Forza 2.GT still beats it in the graphics landscape department with detailed textures in the distance and less shimmering overall.The cars in both GT and Forza 3 look great and are equal in my eyes.

    The 360fps physics engine in Forza3 is the star of the show in my book.It feels like there is gravity in Forza 3 unlike many other racers that I've tried.It's absolutely grin inducing when you can take a powerful car around a bend and halfway around, kick it's ass out with some gas and completely control it while the car is fighting for it's life to grip the tarmac.The way the cars behave with the track is so superb that every tweak and upgrade you do to the car is noticable.Creating drifters,superlight track racers to monsterously powerful, wheeling dragsters is far more rewarding and no longer a chore.
    I hope GT handle's as well as Forza 3 when it finaly appears because the bar has defintely been raised.
    The livery editor on Forza 3 should also get an honourable mention as that is something that can turn an ordinary off the production line car into something that is personal and can stand you out from the crowd especialy in those tasty replays.When you're proving your skills online, it's great having a car thats looks individual even if you're struggling to beat the hottest racers online, atleast you can look cool coming last :)))
    Gt5 or Forza 3? Simple answer is that there isn't one right now. Forza 3 is the best racer out there right now.....bar none.


  • ronuds #62 2 years ago

    Without looking at the pic descriptions between Forza and GT5P, I figured the GT5P shots were those on the right because I believe they looked a good deal better. But, no, those were Forza 3 shots.

    One may look better than the other, but I'll be damned if it's that big a difference.

  • ronuds #63 2 years ago

    Cars fly around like toys in Forza 3? I've been playing the game for over 10 hours and haven't seen one car flip yet, so that's news to me.

  • ronuds #64 2 years ago

    I'll give you that the first crash in the video looks a bit far-fetched, but I didn't see anything else in there that was even close to being unbelievable. You must not have ever seen a car do the flips while going 200 mph? It's quite a spectacle.

  • JensonJet #65 2 years ago

    semitope, Shut up!

    We get already... your beloved Gran Trollismo is the best game ever created... possibly the best form of entertainment in the history of mankind. Perhaps even the best thing to come out of the Universe so far!!!

    Do you really not understand how utterly pathetic you are trying to preach the disadvantages of Forza to people that either aren't interested in it, or the rest of us that already have it. Can't you take up a new hobby while you wait for your game to come out. You could potentially master the piano, guitar, fly an aeroplane, handgliding and jetskiing before GT. Maybe even learn a few languages. I hear Mandarin and Arabic take a while to learn.

    Alternatively you could sit outside shops and try and get customers to make different purchases. That'll keep you busy until GT comes out. Oh, and also you'll learn a valuable life lesson... you can't change people's minds just because your taste differs from theirs. Perhaps your mum plays along with your pathetic attitude and pretends you've made her change her mind, but in the real world people just end up disliking with that attitude.

    If you've got a good imagination you could always rewatch some of those GT videos and pretend you're actually playing the game!

  • markymark22 #66 2 years ago

    em....gran turismo prologue is two years old. i dont care, if a developer with that much experience coding for the 360 cant beat a two year old glorified ps3 demo on its third try.............

  • Badassbab #67 2 years ago

    Semitope you're such a fanboy it's unreal. If Forza was released on the PS3 you'd be singing it's praises all day long. You don't even own a 360, I doubt you've even played Forza and if you have then for 2 hours MAX! That's going on what you've said previously about giving games only a couple of hours to impress you. If it's not on the PS3 and on the 360 you will always find faults. For someone who's barely played Forza if at all and then to comment on it's physics and damage model? You have no authority to do so. GT5 better be good because Forza is very enjoyable with great multiplayer. GT5 could well turn out to be boring, slow, crappy AI....but great graphics.
    Edited by 1 at 03/11/09 @ 01:19

  • lagoonalight #68 2 years ago

    LOL at the guys acting like GT5 is going to have some sort of AI problems. As If!

    In the screenshots available this guy talks as if there are massive improvements of which there are not! I cannot believe how similar F2 and 3 are. GT5 is going to rock our worlds deal with it. GT5 creator races cars and has even won a tournament himself. He knows what he is doing and will not release the game until it's done. Revamped AI, physics etc. You fanboys can convince yourself all day that Forza is the better 'game' and yet you have no clue what to even expect from GT5 and most of you don't own a PS3 lol. Forza talks a load of BULL****. I absolutely hate those devs and their mouths. Come march you all will take a knee.

  • JensonJet #69 2 years ago

    You guys just don't like ppl saying ANYTHING negative about your favorite game.

    What some of us don't like is Playstation kids bullshit about Forza that's based on hearsay or screenshots. And it's incessent too. Everytime a news items about Forza pops up, half dozen PS kids show up crying about Gran Titsmo. It's dull. We know what you think, and we don't care. Seriously, we really don't care. Discussion or argument is one thing. Having a little dog trying to bite your ankles every time you move is pretty tiresome.

    Oh, by the way, in case any PSboys haven't got steering wheels, there are third party extension to the stupid little triggers. It still won't be an Xbox pad, but it should be a slight improvement over using it as it is.

    Anyway, some of you seem more obsessed with Forza than those of us that own it. I know you're paranoid all GT will have over Forza is 600 more boring cars, poor AI, arcade handling and uneventful racing. Hopefully, at least, it'll keep you busy for four years until the next one. Face facts, Forza is by far the better game, you know it, you hate it, you're paranoid about it and so you cry about it all the time in forums. And it is a fact. It's why Xbox gamers don't need to continually spurt this out everytime a car passes by outside.

    If you feel so bad that you've ended up with the shittest console, sell it and get a decent one and be done with it. Then you'll understand why there's so much love for Forza. You know you'd love to be able to customise and paint the cars as well as have realistic handling and a comfortable pad to use. As for the online community... we'll, the Xbox has one... one where people can actually communicate and have a laugh.

    When you do get a decent console, you don't even need to tell us... just change your name and come back as a nice, friendly forum member. Trust me, it'll feel like you won the lottery, fallen in love and started a new job all at once. That's how amazing life with Forza and an Xbox are! The only downside is you'll have to listen to dicks like yourself expressing their paranoia about making a poor choice in the Playstation and the continual frustration at waiting for the second best driving game to be released next year. Codemasters are more likely to have the better arcade racer in their F1 game.

  • Calgon #70 2 years ago

    semitope but you *are* a troll! I'll say it again... why are you here?(to discuss a game you have never played on a console you dislike with a community *xbox owners* you dislike... which you do, you're full of shit semitope, everybody who's bothered to pay attention to you knows this... you're a troll).

    Why do so many GT fanboys obsess about Forza and simply cannot accept that people much prefer it to their GT?

    Everyone who isnt a PS3/GT fanboy knows the answer to this, its a sign of insecurity.

    Btw Forza3's physics whipe the floor with GT5-P's... fact! ;)

    edit: Oh and the damage!
    Edited by 1 at 03/11/09 @ 12:43

  • Calgon #71 2 years ago

    Haha "fanboy comment" = ":( no fair, quick I better say something, ermm ermm.... I know what you are but what am I?"

  • JensonJet #72 2 years ago

    Semitope,
    You don't have an Xbox or Forza, and know nothing about the game having not played it, yet you want to argue that it's worse than a game that's not released. On planet Earth, we refer to your kind as a T R O L L .

    But it is a fact that Forza is better than Gran Tourismo. In every single way. And before you start with the 'graphics' argument, consider this. Do peoples favourite games always have the very best graphics? Do the most popular games always have the very best graphics? Are the voted for Games of the Year always the best looking game to appear that year? Graphics improve year on year, with each new iteration of a game or console or PC, whatever. Everyone accepts that, which is why good graphics are bonus, but as they'll be superceded in the near future, When the original Xbox came out and was far superior to the PS2, did everyone throw their little Sony toy out the window and rush out and buy an Xbox because it had better graphics? No. Again, graphics are a bonus, but they're not the be all and end all of gaming. In fact if graphical detail were so important videogames would never exists because the first games compared to today were terrible. Content and execution are what provides the fun that makes us play games.

    If you wish to discuss the bad points about Forza, go out and buy it and play it, then perhaps you might have a discussion on your hands.

  • ronuds #73 2 years ago

    He has proof that Forza sucks, though. He saw a video on youtube of it. LOL!!

    These foolish arguments can rage on and on forever. Does anyone here who owns Forza 3 have any regrets about their purchase? I know I sure as hell don't, and all I do while I'm at work is think about playing the damn game. So...imo, it must be doing something right - and I suspect the majority of folks would agree with me on that.

  • TRUTH #74 2 years ago

    GT 5 has taken five bloody years to develop (Sept 10 2010)...Specially for PS3 with huge amounts of resources and cash from Sony; why do you think GTP was released - simply to get some money back due to expense of a long and costly development time.

    No other gaming company has ploughed this much time a development into a single game!!!!...I can't be bothered with it now - esp after GTP (which actually made me less interested then before!)

  • MrJ1m #75 2 years ago

    I've been playing Forza 3 a lot lately and the one thing that strikes me more than the graphics alone are the physics and the feel of the cars. Surely the greatest mark of a racing game is how it feels, not how it looks. It's still not ugly by any means though.

    Granted NFS Shift and PGR 4 are both, imo, as good looking as Forza 3 (possibly even a little better in places) but neither of them hold a candle to Forza for the way it feels when you are playing.

    If GT5 can continue to look this good and feel as good as Forza 3, then the wait for it will be justified. A long wait gives people plenty of time to create unrealistic expectations though.

  • Badassbab #76 2 years ago

    I don't get why some compare NFSS to Forza 3 technically. At the Eurogamer Expo both were being played on large HD screens (On the PS3 which I believe is the inferior version but only by a bit) and Forza canned it in the graphics department.

  • billy323 #77 2 years ago

    Seriously guys has anyone here that has forza 3 ever player any other console or are you all 12 years old. Forza is inferior to every GT game that has ever been made down to GT1. Graphics aside the handling model on forza sucks bad, all the cars feel like you are driving through porridge and all this nonsense about the responsiveness of the 360hz handling that makes me laugh, its about as responsive as a dead parrot (cue Monty Python). I have played all the GT's to date and all the Forza's and forza is miles behind in this respect.