Digital Foundry vs. Project Natal

In-depth, no-holds-barred hands-on analysis of the Next Big Thing in gaming.

Microsoft's announcement of Project Natal at this year's E3 was, for many, the event of the show; an exciting piece of brand new technology promising to revolutionise the way we play games. No joypads, no sticks, no buttons... no controller! Combining a traditional RGB camera with an infra-red sensor, along with a multi-array mic and Microsoft's own voice-recognition technology, Project Natal is all about bringing people into the game, literally. Capable of tracking and interpreting motion data for up to four people simultaneously, the human body becomes the controller. In effect, it's a pretty sophisticated motion-capture set-up designed for the home, and it's exclusive to Xbox 360. It's also pretty much the main reason I've come to gamescom - I have so many questions about the device, and none of the answers have been forthcoming in anything I've read about it so far.

The ever-engaging Kudo Tsunoda is creative director of Project Natal, and is our pilot through the presentation, which is essentially the same as the E3 demo albeit without the inclusion of Peter Molyneux's Milo & Kate. "Xbox is becoming the entertainment hub of the living room and we're getting a lot of new content - like downloading movies, you've probably seen the announcement for Facebook coming to Xbox, Twitter - those sorts of things," he begins. "We have a lot of different content out there that appeals to a lot of different people, and so it becomes very important that we develop a new control system where anybody can use our controls. Right now our current controller is very nice, I like playing games with it, it's awesome. But it's got a lot of buttons and a lot of analogue sticks and it's very hard for some people to use, and it's a barrier to some people for enjoying our console."

Tsunoda reckons, then, that the current joypad is intimidating for some people and puts them off console gameplay. Not only that, but with the system also doubling up as a media player, he talks about how his family would call him over to navigate through the interface using the 360 controller just to fire up their movies. "It became very important for us to create a new control scheme where anybody - no matter what your age or gaming ability - can just get in there can play with Xbox. No instructions, just very simple and easy to use," he continues. "But at the same time we wanted to give extra fidelity for core gamers. So, simple and approachable, extra fidelity - it seems like opposite things, but those are both things we can do with Project Natal."

Onto the first demonstration then: a 3D Breakout game. Powered by Unreal Engine 3, it places you in front of a wall with a barrage of red balls being fired in your direction. The objective is simple: use whatever body part you have available to bash the balls back to the bricks, which breaks them. A suitably energetic demo from Tsunoda ensues. "To play the game all you need to do is move your body," he says. "If you move your body, you'll know how to play the game. It's simple and approachable. I don't care how many buttons or how many analogue sticks you put on your controller: you're never going to get simultaneous movement of your entire Avatar as you can do with Natal."

He's right. What is particularly noteworthy here is that the on-screen Avatar in this demo is closely (if not identically) based on the entire 48-point vector skeleton Natal is processing internally. The way in which the Avatar matches even the slightest of your movements is quite remarkable. It's not just limited to limb movement - your entire body is being accurately mapped. Tsunoda mentions that the dashboard Avatars will also perform in a similar manner, immediately making them more individual, human-like and more closely related to you. I've never been enthralled by the Avatar concept, but this will work in really individualising them and making them seem more like mini-CG replicas of yourself. The applications within Avatar-driven games (and of course via Xbox Live) are potentially spectacular.

"Plus the great thing is that you don't need to stand in just one place and move," Tsunoda continues. "You can totally walk around the room, and your Avatar walks with you. I can walk backwards, I can walk forwards, left and right... it all just works, right?" Tsunoda proceeds to play the demo, jumping about like madman. "I've lost over eight kilograms since I started working on Project Natal," he says. I can believe him. [He really is completely bonkers to watch. The only point he reins himself in is to avoid kicking Rich in the face. - Ed]

A more lethargic performance from myself follows. Curiously, Natal doesn't immediately lock onto me. Tsunoda's assistant runs his hand in front of the sensor, which seems to reset it, and all is well. I'm going to guess that this is actually a good thing: Natal is presumably still attempting to track Tsunoda, but he's no longer 'on the grid'. "You can see also that because the sensor is seeing everything in the room in 3D, the Avatar changes," Tsunoda says, referring to the translucent game character on-screen. "It was an Avatar that looked more like me but has changed to an Avatar that more closely fits how he [he being me] looks." It's simple, good fun, and I'm particularly struck at how well Natal judges the velocity of moving limbs.

It takes some getting used to, but the gameplay has the feel of authenticity about it that you would want. Give the ball a solid whack, or a good kick, and the reaction on-screen is exactly how you feel it should be. Basic, fun, concept-driven stuff like this is exactly where Nintendo excels, and it's good to see Microsoft following a similar line of thought. Just from playing this small demo, it becomes obvious that Microsoft could make a hell of a good Wii Sports-style game with this, and the body-mapping looks so precise that any fitness software it would want to produce has the potential to be astonishingly good. In fact, you can transpose just about any of the motion-driven Wii games and imagine just how much more involving it will feel with Natal. And authentic: no more Wiimote-shaking to cheat the running sections in Wii Fit, for example.

The Breakout-style demo is also interesting in that you would think it will give us some idea of just how much latency there is in processing the full-body skeleton. Trying to get a feel for it during gameplay is difficult simply because there is already 'latency' in the human body itself when moving a major limb. What we do know from previous presentations is that Natal produces its 48-point skeletons at 30 frames per second. Burnout Paradise operates at 60FPS and aims for a 50-millisecond latency, so we can assume that 30FPS scanning gives us a baseline of 100ms. During the Breakout demonstration, I sneak in a move or two specifically aimed at giving us some idea of just how fast Natal updates.

Follow the human arm movement and check out the time it takes for the Avatar to respond. If our latency measurement is correct, when we slow down the video to 20 per cent speed, on-screen there should be a second between movement and response.

Even running in real-time, the video of me waving my right arm up and down gives some indication of the lag, but it's important to emphasise the "some indication" bit in the strongest-possible terms. The video recording was made at 1080i - 60 fields per second - and this can be interpolated out with reasonable accuracy to a progressive 60FPS video. Frame-counting from moving my arm down to the on-screen Avatar following suit appears to be close to 200ms (12 frames, a fifth of a second). Before we go ballistic on this, it's got to be put into context in a number of respects:

  • We don't know the latency of the display, which could be anything between 1-5 frames (it's a Samsung, so it'll likely be towards the lower end).
  • We don't know the latency caused by the game code - it varies dramatically, even between 30FPS games.
  • Of course, Natal isn't finished yet, and best guestimates say it'll be 14 months until it's out in the shops. There's a very strong possibility that the final production unit will be different.

With that in mind, an educated guess on the optimistic side would be that this Breakout-style demo operates between 133ms to 166ms - effectively the same range of response as Halo 3 working with the joypad. Assuming it's an ultra-quality, low-latency display, that delta shifts to 166ms-200ms - similar to Killzone 2/GTAIV controller lag. Certainly in this test, the latency is noticeable, and I think it's clear to see when the video is running in real-time, but until we get the tech into controlled conditions, preferably in a straight head-to-head with the conventional joypad performing like-for-like tasks (dash navigation, for example), a precise latency figure isn't possible. As I've said, what we see here is an indication of likely performance.

Now, onto the second demonstration: the legendary Burnout Paradise demo. There's nothing mad or crazy going on here coding-wise, it's exactly the same game that emanated from Criterion's Guildford development lair. "The reason we did this demo is because we wanted to show that you have just as much responsiveness in control with Natal as you do with a regular controller," Tsunoda explains. "The reason we chose Burnout Paradise is that with any type of racing game, it's very fast-paced action, you're moving very quickly, and if there's any lag or delay in the controls, you're going to notice it very quickly in a big fashion."

In essence, Microsoft is scanning Natal inputs and converting them into the equivalent Xbox joypad commands. In this case, the hands represent the steering wheel, while acceleration and deceleration work by moving your foot forwards and backwards. It works, it's entertaining and it will make racing games far more appealing to the non-traditional gaming audience than they have ever been before, but I'll be honest - it will be a cold day in hell before I hang up my joypad and play an ultra-fast 'twitch' action game like Burnout Paradise with any kind of motion controller when the traditional pad must surely get the same job done a lot more quickly.

Instructions from Microsoft say that my fists should be placed close to each other for the steering motion to work properly, but it's not especially realistic, so I adopt a more traditional steering posture with my hands further apart. Tsunoda is triumphant. "You can see that even though he's trying to test the controls by moving his hands closer together or farther apart it's still very responsive and works in all cases."

Once again, he's right, but it's very difficult to tell just whether it is as responsive he claims. Before playing Natal, I spent some time on Gran Turismo 5 at the Sony stand on the show floor. The force-feedback wheel was great, but it took ages to adjust to, having been used to the pad. I feel similarly detached here and, while Burnout Paradise is clearly playable, I can't say I feel the 50ms precision Criterion strived to implement in the basic console version. Is it me? Is it Natal? Is it just the case that moving hands and feet physically takes longer than pressing buttons on a joypad and is therefore inherently less responsive? What about the process of drifting: dabbing the brake, hitting the gas and turning the wheel? A doddle on the controller, but with the Natal implementation here, it's very difficult to tell just what level of control is possible.

Kudo Tsunoda's clearly a brilliant Natal evangelist, but as much as he might tell us it's got the "extra fidelity", without having an extended period of time to get used to this very different system of control, it's impossible to tell. What we can do is give you another video to look at. Compare the left/right steering wheel movement to the corresponding movement on-screen, and see what you think. Once again it's difficult to ascertain quite what's going on, as you can't have immediate response on the display: presumably the wheels on the car need to start turning before the screen shifts.

Compare Tsunoda's hand movements with the response on-screen, particularly as he veers sharply from left to right.

Whether Natal controls will work seamlessly with other enthusiast favourites also remains to be seen. Shooters, for example. Can you point and shoot with Natal? Does it track the direction of your finger, and thus mirror the infra-red beam element of the Nintendo Wii controller? Bearing in mind how popular the machine is with FPS fans, it's not surprising that this is the number one question I am consistently asked about Microsoft's new tech and, until now, all I could do was shrug pathetically and speculate.

For the shooting game example, Tsunoda reckons that pointing won't work, but that you could position your arms as they would be when carrying, say, a shotgun. Which is all well and good, but assuming that Natal can't pinpoint the movement of your fingers, it's never going to know when you're pulling the virtual trigger. Some other mechanism would be required, and perhaps the intuitive nature Microsoft wants would be lost in some alternative kind of implementation.

Make no mistake though, Natal is very, very smart. Natal is going to do amazing things for the Xbox 360, and I daresay that there will be a very cunning way in which it is integrated into Halo: Reach. But it does have its limitations. In respect of direct pointing at the display, both the Nintendo Wii remote and, I suspect, the PlayStation motion controller will have the better of it. Both are built around the concept of being handheld wands, similar to TV remotes, and thus pointing is the most natural thing to do with them. Natal will need to find its own way. Outside of gaming the 'pointing requirement' isn't quite so stringent - there's nothing to stop an on-screen hand being mapped to your own appendage, and it's here that interface navigation will feel much more authentic and easier to get to grips with in comparison with the usual controller.

In terms of the presentation, is there anything held back that we aren't allowed to show you or talk about? Surprisingly, not much. Only two limitations are put on our video work. Firstly, we're not allowed to film the actual camera/sensor itself (I doubt there's anything sinister here over and above the final product looking different). Secondly, a Natal technical read-out screen is demonstrated that is hugely informative in terms of showing you how the system sees the world. It's a massive shame that we can't show it, because for the geeks amongst us, it's probably the highlight of the presentation. But I'll do my best to describe it to you.

It comprises several windows - the main one being a representation of the area being scanned, with a vector graphic display of the 48-point player "skeleton" combined with a rough approximation of Natal's infra-red display, which is overlaid on top. Next to that is conventional RGB image (similar to what you'd get from a normal webcam), and, below that, the pure infra-red camera feed, which really is quite cool. Move closer to the sensor, and you literally appear "warmer" to Natal. It's how it perceives depth, and it's why its performance will not be impeded in less-than-ideal lighting conditions.

During this demonstration, Tsunoda shows how Natal's brain works. The sensor's in-built processor constantly maintains your skeleton's points and pieces them together to form the vector image. Should one or more of those points disappear, Natal uses basic common sense on how the human body moves, and how it is able to move, and interpolates the connections with unerring accuracy. Up to four players can be tracked in this way, and even when swapping positions, or obscuring parts of the other player's body, the "brain" sorts it out. Very cool. Also impressive is how the skeleton-tracking is maintained even as the player moves towards the camera, with more and more of the skeletal points moving out of shot. Even with just the hips and a small portion of the legs in shot, Natal is still able to accurately determine leg movement. And yes, for the less energetically inclined, Natal works with the player sitting down as well. Presumably because of the properties of the infra-red sensor, background items are automatically factored out of the picture.

One thing I think is worth pointing out is that Natal only seems to scan up to the hand, which is just one of the 48 tracked points. I was curious as to whether the tech could lock onto a player's hand and map individual fingers. The implications for Guitar Hero-style games, for example, could be significant. "It could see my fingers pretty well," Tsunoda replies. "But a little kid's fingers... it's a bit harder at the maximum distance."

So Activision and EA's sales of plastic instruments are seemingly quite safe for the time being, and the tech demo itself is quite revealing. Assuming that what we're seeing on the tech screen is native resolution, the size of the RGB and IR windows suggests that even with an adult, finger-tracking could be asking a bit too much: resolution from the camera certainly isn't HD, and I didn't expect it to be, bearing in mind that Natal interfaces with the Xbox 360 via USB. This introduces a bandwidth bottleneck that at its theoretical maximum is 60MB per second. A 720p uncompressed stream running at 30FPS in 24-bit RGB easily outstrips that. While Tsunoda won't be drawn on Natal's actual resolution, intriguingly he does mention that the normal camera's resolution can be scaled down and that the IR feed can be scaled up. That being the case, I'm guessing that developers will be able to allocate bandwidth accordingly.

As the demo plays out, Tsunoda explains how the data is used to provide services such as an automatic sign-in to Xbox Live. The Natal sensor literally recognises you when you walk in front of it. "We use the infra-red to get a 3D scan of who you are," he says. "And then also using the voice combined with the infra-red to determine who it is." Natal's voice recognition sounds similar to that found in the new iPhone 3GS, so in theory you can negotiate the interface with aural commands such as "play movie". The tech can also be deployed in a vast range of other non-gaming situations. "You can do a video party chat, no headsets required," Tsunoda enthuses. "You can have a living room of people video-chatting with another living room of people using Live, the video camera and the multi-array mic together."

All of the key image-processing is done by Natal's in-built silicon, leaving the Xbox 360 free to power the game itself, and you would think that processing up to four different skeletons simultaneously could impose some kind of performance hit. "If you're going to be tracking all 48 points, it's going to be a little more on the processor than just one person," reckons Tsunoda. "And you can do up to four, but it's not going to be hugely processor-intensive either way." Not a hugely revealing answer - and it's something that can't be tested during the demo, as we only see two skeletons being processed simultaneously - but if the doubling of the load is going to impact Natal's refresh rate, we don't see anything on the tech screens to indicate this. It looks absolutely solid.

Overall, you can easily see why Microsoft is excited about this. Nintendo took the GameCube, added a new interface and a few tech tweaks and turned a poorly performing product into a market leader. Xbox 360 is already a commercial and critical success, it has a clear HD advantage, and its motion-sensing system is like nothing else. In many ways, Natal is the natural evolution of the Wii remote - one of the first impressions I have when using it is that the human body doubles up for almost all of the functions of the Nintendo controller. You are the Wiimote, and its potential to expand the appeal and the reach of the Xbox 360 is astonishing.

The applications of the technology are immense, and will be limited only by the imagination of the developers - and this is where Microsoft's first parties in particular have got their work cut out for them. Wii works because the innovative hardware is backed by some of the most gifted developers in the world, who have successfully managed to capture the imagination of a new type of gamer. Compare and contrast this with the company that has brought us commercial flops like Lips and You're In The Movies. In short, the raw tech is there to completely and utterly outquaff the Wii controller in every single way, but Microsoft's biggest challenge is going to about upping its game-making skills to match and exceed the best that Nintendo has to offer.

As for the core gamer, the jury's still out. The Burnout Paradise demo proves that Natal can be interfaced nicely with the fast action arcade game, and yes, it's playable, but in many ways the concept is held back by the inefficiencies of the human body. Pulling your foot back to engage the brake simply takes longer for a human being to manage as opposed to pulling a trigger or pressing a button - even if Natal operated with zero latency, which certainly in the Breakout demo it doesn't, it would not be the optimal way to play it.

In FPS parlance, it would be similar to comparing a joypad to the keyboard/mouse combo: both playable, but with one being much more precise. I can see alternate control systems being factored in, and I can also see clever functionality tweaks, additions and shortcuts being added to the control systems and interfaces of core games using the Natal tech, but still with the pad as the primary interface. Technologically, there's nothing to stop developers using both simultaneously. For example, the archetypal Xbox 360 shooter could still use joypad commands, but melee combat would work far more nicely if you were literally smacking your opponent in the face via motion control. Similarly, lobbing a grenade might be another application that would be better suited to Natal.

One thing I do find intriguing is the concept of Natal perhaps being able to track head movements, and thus turning the player's display from a flat representation of the world into more of a window into it - a sort of revisiting of the old VR concept. Head-tracking using hacked Wii controls produces quite outstanding results, as seen on YouTube. The author of that video, Johnny Lee, is now NDA-bound and apparently working for... Microsoft. Similar to the way game-makers push console technology to the limits and beyond, I can see the same thing happening for Natal, and that is hugely exciting.

The bottom line is that is that the core principles of the standard controller are decades old now, and with good reason. Natal will get more casual gamers interested in what are traditionally enthusiasts' games, but Microsoft will really have a tough job convincing core gamers to move across full-time once the novelty factor has worn off. As it is, in the form I play it at gamescom, I can't see Natal changing the old style of games and the way we play them that much. Similar to what Nintendo achieved with the Wii, we will simply see new types of software more suited to the unique properties that Natal brings to the table - and while the playable demos I get to sample are interesting, the true greatness and the real potential of Natal has yet to be seen.

Comments (128) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Vroom #1 3 years ago

  • phAge #2 3 years ago

    Judging by the reactions from the PS3 fanb0ys, I'd say MS was onto a winner here.
  • berelain #3 3 years ago

    sounds interesting. I guessed the lag would be a factor, but it doesn't look like it affects it too much- like any control system, it will take a little getting used to, but I can see it being used for interesting things. The full body control doesn't really interest me, but its the extra bits- like the suggestion of using natal to recognise movement alongside a normal controller that excites me; for example, perhaps it could track head movement to allow you to peek around corners, duck to crouch (how many of us did that the first time we played an fps?) or the aforementioned grenade throwing example.

    Likewise, with racing games, why not use it to recognise something like a control pad or steering wheel shape and tilt it to steer, which could then also give force feedback to the player?

    Just ideas, but the potential is immense- if MS can realise it. Those who say "oh, its just like the EyeToy" or "the wand will be better" - they each have their uses. In my opinion, the EyeToy is a great idea hampered by poor implementation- Eye of Judgement is about the only game I can think of to use the EyeToy in a really intereting way, by adding an Augmented Reality effect to a standard CCG. Why there aren't more games- and, for that matter, applications- that can make use of it is pretty baffling to me.
  • KayJay #4 3 years ago

    So we get half a page of Rape for GT5 following DF looking over someones shoulder, But three father long pages of Natal Love.
    Jesus, Lets have some consistencey.
  • ILOVEU #5 3 years ago

    Oh dear it really doesn't work does it? Way too slow response time, he didn't even seem to have full control of the car in the burnout demo. I'm sick of people making out motion control is a new thing as well its been around for yonkies years. I remember the megadrive had a motion sensing ring that you stood in the middle of and it was meant to respond to body movements eg play streets of rage pulling all the punches and kicks yourself. But it never worked properly, so they never released outside america. Nearly 20 years later Microsoft still have exactly the same problems with this new device but seem intent on forcing it on us anyway.

    And as for the success of the Wii that's more down to brilliant marketing than brilliant use of motion control in the games. I think from a hardcore gamers perspective the Wii is a huge disappointment with few titles of any real substance and even fewer titles that use the motion sensing for anything really innovative. The real thought behind the Wii at Nintendo was how can we release exactly the same stale old games we've been re-making for the last 20 years without spending any money upgrading the graphics? Answer gimmicky motion controller, hurrah! Worked a treat hasn't it? Everybody else is bankrupting themselves making next gen games that cost $20million+ a time and Nintendo coin it in re-making their various past their sell by date Mario and Zelda games often just re-using graphics engines that haven't even changed much since the N64 era. That's where the real genius has been. Result!
  • TedMoseby #6 3 years ago

    Reading this article's beginning paragraph, it struck me that a side project for Natal could be for exporting motion capture data for use in animation - e.g. use Natal to capture a stance, a walk, a throw etc, then export the captured data for import into Maya, Vue, Max etc. That would really assist in doing some of the 3D stuff that I like to do. Could be a nice XNA project.

    I appreciate that it couldn't have the range of capture as professional bodysuits, and presumably complex facial data capture is out, but getting a general feel for a pose or animation could be made much simpler, and more importantly, much more accessible.
  • lucky_jim #7 3 years ago

    Wow, I can't believe the comments on here. Are people who are saying "it really doesn't work" reading the same article I just read?

    Richard, I found your closing comments on head-tracking very interesting, because when I first saw the E3 demo I was struck by how Natal could be theoretically combined with a standard controller. I like the idea of being able to play Gears 3 in my comfy chair, controller in hand, yet be able to physically duck down behind cover and peer round corners. Something like that could really add to how immersive "core" games are. As far as I can see, it's the only motion-sensing system on offer which has that kind of potential.
  • Sharzam #8 3 years ago

    I agree that nintedos wii is all down to marketing, its not just about shoving adverts down peoples throats as both sony and microsoft do that. But nintendo has made it seam like anyone can play and so when some random person sees one at a friends house they buy one. These people are not your traditional gamers and so only play for a month and get bored.

    As for the latency i dont imagine it will be a problem because as mentioned console games inheriantly have lag, people that are used to mouse and keyboard take some getting used to using a pad same as people with pads will take some getting used to natal. Its neither better or worse in the long run it is justa different way.
  • Ace_McCloud #9 3 years ago

    Like lucky jim says, I like the idea of how this could be incorporated into core games like Halo. Reaching towards a weapon in the HUD that you'd like selected would be cool (I'll admit flicking through grenades in Halo still confuses me!). And if it could accurately map the trajectory you physically chuck a grenade that'd be pretty amazing.

    Melee combat though? Not so much. It's too twitch based for that.
  • TheBard #10 3 years ago

    I can hardly wait for games using a Natal/Controller hybrid approach. Combining classic controller-based gameplay with extra gestures etc.

    Imagine making "dodge" moves actually dodging away from the incoming missile. Or controlling AI squad mates through hand gestures. Playing a game with a controller, but raising your hand to open the inventory, manipulate items there by grasping them and then continue with a controller.

    Or games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, where you choose powers from a radial popup menue... this could be done brilliantly through Natal.

    Oh... I cannot wait.
  • LetsGo #11 3 years ago

    Shame its likely to cost over £100...!
  • #12 3 years ago

    Its a gimmick no matter how much technological trickery it has. - Yeah I cant wait to open an inventory by making some stupid wave into thin air.

    I cant wait to see all the Wii shovelware is pushed to 360.
  • BillyBrush #13 3 years ago

    would like to see a bit less lag for sure....the breakout game, you could definately see it...i doubt that will make any difference to yer casuals, but i'd like to see something where it's really tighter.

    ...that it works in a lit room is good...hope it works fine with natural light too..

    I think the thing with natal is the concept is a winner as it actually takes things further than using remotes....my own view on both the upcoming motion sensing offerings though is that to an extent the ship has sailed already and Ninty (good on them) have already got this area bagged up, people who aren't THAT into gaming aren't going to buy another console if the family already has a Wii
  • Xerx3s #14 3 years ago

    "Tsunoda reckons, then, that the current joypad is intimidating for some people and puts them off console gameplay."

    Sorry but if you're too stupid to take 5 mins to check out a controller, then good riddens. We definitely don't need more dumbed down mini games made for this crowd.

    I can see two uses for this though. A) The 3D telly as mentioned on the last page should be interesting for shooters and B) a very cheap mocap studio for game development. Something we do atm with normal camera's and then hand drawing every key frame, I can tell you that it is very cheap but time consuming.

    Also lol at some peeps in here, moaning about perceived "360 fanboys" in a ps3 thread but not bothering to read the article and jumping at the opportunity to post something negative. Talk about being a hypocrite.
  • dirk_aircool #15 3 years ago

    nice article . nice tech demo . I'd rather see a next gen console than another Wii type platform . I really dont fancy spending my spare time leaping about in my living room up to 3am . it just sounds too tiring . it also confines the console to a large room space , usually the main living area . thats a big problem if you don't live alone .
  • the_dudefather #16 3 years ago

    if they can incorporate motion controlled dancing into 1vs100 then this instantly becomes peripheral of the decade
  • ParanoidZombie #17 3 years ago

    I don't thinkl Natal's been designed to be your main "controller" in hardcore gamer's games like ninja gaiden, virtua fighter, COD or forza. It just opens up a lot of possibilities for casual gaming and a few smart design options for more traditionnal genres (like the melee thing in a FPS).

    Microsoft, sony and nintendo know that the hardcore aren't much interested in this anyway, they know that the last thing we want to hear is that the next sequel to our favorite hardcore, skill-based game will be designed around Natal. That won't happen. See the Wii installments of nintendo's hardcore franchises: they're kinda conservative, controls-wise.
  • hiddenranbir #18 3 years ago

    I want interactive point and click adventure games with Natal!
  • Stormflood #19 3 years ago

    I was expecting a little more than has already been covered since E3. I had to check it wasn't an old article.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that Natal will be great fun for all those Wii-type family games we loved, and could add a few interesting features to traditional game types. What it won't do is replace tactile controllers for the majority of games that require speed, accuracy and precision. At worst, it could become another keep fit peripheral for those games that litter the Wii top ten charts, and 'serious' devs will just avoid it.

    Personally, I don't believe MS will do anything but market the shit out of Natal, and we'll all buy the thing just to have a go whether or not we use it again after week one.
  • TheJuriel #20 3 years ago

    Really, really interested in this. I do hope you can point and shoot with a finger, though.
  • spatss #21 3 years ago

    Looks very gimmicky.
  • the_genius #22 3 years ago

    Nice tech. But where are the games? It will take a lot more than an EyeToy-style seizure simulator to make this a success.

    "Wii works because the innovative hardware is backed by some of the most gifted developers in the world, who have successfully managed to capture the imagination of a new type of gamer. Compare and contrast this with the company that has brought us commercial flops like Lips and You're In The Movies."

    Exactement.
  • Incarta #23 3 years ago

    Indeed. It doesn't matter how good the tech is if you ain't got the software. Wii Sports sold the Wii, not the Wiimote.

    Having said that, i'm sure Microsoft will have a proper game to sell natel with at launch... ... right?
  • Ryze #24 3 years ago

    I'm intrigued by the potential to track head, hand, finger and accessory movements either natively, or by giving them a 'point' to track using the infra-red camera.

    Depending on how this is implemented, there may well be the potential to offer cheap plastic game specific accessories that only have to emit the correct amount / type of light for the game type in question.

    For example, a lightweight gun and helmet for a shooting game could track the head movements and allow a shooting without relying on a dexterous, agile right-thumb.

    I'm trying to ignore all of this until there's a library of interesting games to be reviewed. This is very much like a new console launch, except we already own the console.

    @ILOVEU

    That's exactly what MS can do for the next 5 years with their existing IP and mature graphics engines, as can other developers. They can churn out games based on exisiting titles, but appealing to different audiences, with different types of gameplay.

    I'd be interested in trying out a Splinter Cell variant that's in downloadable in bitesized chunks and experiments with natal motion control, for example.

    It shouldn't affect the traditional games, as it'd be foolish to dump the joypad. The developers can use the existing game engines and even the same assets and levels, but throw in completely different gameplay and market the games to a new audience.

    Looks like everyone wins. We'll keep getting hardcore titles with motion options if we want them, while the casuals can experiment in the same way that the iPhone offers basic interpretations of known franchises.

    It's like a modern video game arcade, where some people only play the novelty games, at the same time as having the crowd of hardcore gathered around the latest Capcom / SNK beat 'em up.

    But everyone enjoys Sega Rally and Daytona USA - so there's always room for crossover.
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 13:18
  • GreyBeard #25 3 years ago

    Natal is going to be great for exercise and "party" games, no doubt. But I can't see it being more than an augment for conventional game types i.e. head tracking, optional gestural inputs, etc.

    The key issues are as follows (imho of course).

    Without physical feedback only certain actions are going to feel convincing and positive. Throwing yes, pulling no. And simulating a response to an object moving on its own (grappling with something or someone) is right out, - if you cant "feel" the difference you have a disconnect.

    Its an "always on" system. Obviously this is a huge game-changer. When you are using a conventional controller every action you take is voluntary; you decide to press the A button, you push the right stick-up, etc. Natal works by watching what you are doing so the onus is on you not to accidentally cause an input.

    In order to prevent accidental input like I just described, motions will need to be either prompted (i.e. this only happens when this icon is on screen), or made sufficiently large that the player doesn't need to be stood statue-still in order not to accidentally do something.

    Case "a" (prompted) turns the play process into 'Simon says', so will need to be used sparingly, and case "b" (big motions) causes issues of lag and physical stress.

    The reality is that playing a game with an input of this type is bound to be more physically demanding (both in terms of body coordination and energy consumed) than a regular game. And obviously this is going to factor in how a game supporting this is designed - most people don't want a game that is hard work to play! (Unless of course its a fitness or party game where everyone takes turns to do a short "burst" of action).

    This is not a revolution.


  • GamesConnoisseur #26 3 years ago

    Sony wand is just natal motion tracking plus wiimote!! So to diss natal tech is to diss part of what makes wand works?! MS can easily incorporate simple wand for games that requires pointing precision.

    I m tired of people automatically discarding ideas just cos they loves opposing platform and/or detests anything MS.

    Gamers should recognise all brings exciting new ideas to invest and regenerate our hobby, the application of natal is endless and I would prefer as background controller with joypad still the main controller tocertain games.

    Natal seems to work best for browsing dashboard, 100 v 1 n and types of casual or entertaining game and with fps u can use pad plus head movements for leanings, zoomings, arm throwings for grenades or kickings it back!

    Many more ideas and maybe more useful than sixaxis motion that are ignored despite Sony's earlier suggestions?

    Main weakness is not that it's unproven but rather it's arrival at a very late stage and being optional additional purchase which not everyone will have. So ergo it would mainly be fully utilised for certain MS games and extra option for majority of games such as I described above or from others suggestions.

    Good work nonetheless that will be watched by everyone including Nintendo and Sony!!
  • Ryze #27 3 years ago

    It'll be great to be able to reach out and choose objects on screen without using the silly d-pad, or having to have things spaced out that you have to walk over them and press a button.

    Just reaching out to open doors, pick up objects, give objects to other characters along with a voice command 'here, take this', etc could be a revelation if implemented effectively.

    Then there's interacting with on-screen objects and devices, like grabbling a ladder without the fuss, batting obstacles out of the way, peering and leaning, solving puzzles etc.

    Even pressing buttons on a dashboard could become doable if the tech is up to it or a glove is released. It'd be great to control the car stereo in a driving game, turn on lights, or adjust other driving settings without pausing the game.

    If well combined with a controller in the right games, and bundled with a killer blockbuster, this could be massive.

    No chance I'd be steering with it without a controller in my hands, though.
  • #28 3 years ago

    I personally would much prefer something that augments the use of the standard controller and the preferred way we ergonomically play games, i.e., the way we sit comfortably. These new controllers are fine for small play times but it is unreasonable to think anyone could stand and play games for 3-4 hours.

    What concerns me too is the fact the fine motor skills of our hands are now going to be replaced by gross movements which simply do not measure up to the incremental movements of our fingers. Time will tell but I cant see many development houses pouring money into games other than casual party type games.

    Nothing will ever replace a controller. Voice commands would be nice tho.

  • Francuzzz1010 #29 3 years ago

    Microsoft didnt make somethin new.
    Sony did Eye-toy many years ago.
    Project Natal is just kind of eye toy in new cover and also did u see PN camera in video?????
    its fake i think because we didnt see camera maybe one guy is playing on gamepad??
    and another just represents playing
  • Xerx3s #30 3 years ago

    That just transcended fanboyism and entered paranoia.

    /hands out tinfoil hat
  • SmoothieMonster #31 3 years ago

    This still hasn't answered my main problem with the whole idea. It's all very well tracking my movement but my sitting room isn't that big and there's an obstacle (coffee table) between the TV and the sofa. I can't see my wife letting me get rid of the coffee table no matter how cool Natal is, so it's never going to see my feet and I don't have room to jump around.

    After the Wii came out there were lots of complaints about broken TV's caused by flying remotes. I should think when this comes out there'll be a similar number of complaints about injuries caused by kicking or punching walls, furniture, siblings or spouses during gaming sessions. (Surely 4 player games will be impossible without all the players ending up hitting each other repeatedly.)
  • makeamazing #32 3 years ago

    Games companies spend alot of time and money on latency/performance on games, and some have real trouble fixing it on games. Now MS may be able to solve this issue in the 12-14 months that they are going to be releasing this product... BUT for gamers on this website to dismiss this latency as "you will just have to change the way you play" is pretty stupid. There is no way that 99% of the gamers out there would be happy with "Ive moved my arm and half a second later its moving on screen".. you wouldnt put up with that in a normal game, so why would you here. Now MS do have time to fix this, the question is if the tech at this point in time (not just from MS but the current tech of any company) is upto the job.

    The Wii was a success because of the controller, not because it didnt have one, I think people are wrong to suggest that Natal will be just as successful because its similar in concept for the non hardcore gamer. They are not the same, playing a tennis or golf game with a wii remote is not the same as using your hands. Of course you can use a plastic device as well... why not just get a wii then. If Natal is going to be a success and it could be.. then its got to use other things like voice, face recognition and head tracking.. to me this is where it could really be a success in games and this is where MS should put its time and effort. BUT this is not how MS is selling the product.. they are selling it as a non controller device.. which is too late to the party.. unless it comes out pre-packaged in the 720 console.

    The other thing that worries me is that voice recognition is still pretty poor (from anyone) even after 15 + years of dragon speaking...you still have to train the computer to learn your voice and tones, this is not quick and for games is not going to be great spending a number of minutes training it.

    So to summarise, if they can pull it off then certainly it will move the line in the ground for how good tech needs to be and will certainly mean that gaming will never be the same again, if not they are going to be releasing something like the nintendo glove, a good idea at the time but flawed to fail and alot of unhappy people with kit sitting round doing nothing (wii fit anyone :)
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 14:43
  • basalarmageddon #33 3 years ago

    Personllay I hope all this motion sensing crap will go away and die in a fire. most gamer's when they come home just want to sit down and unwind by playing a game, not standing in front of a tv waveing there arm's around like a twat.
    call me when we get full VR which we can control with our mind.
  • metalangel #34 3 years ago

    This is shit for anything except goofy party games. Think of a driving game... Your arms are going to fall off due to lactic acid buildup after less than ten minutes trying to hold them in the 'steering wheel' area (go play Totemball for a preview). And second, ducking or meleeing in a shooter? Fuck off. Imagine a really tricky bit where you have to melee three guys and then duck and do several other actions. Every time you die, back to the last checkpoint to do them all again. After maybe a dozen attempts, you'll fall over dead from exhaustion making the pistolwhip and wall leap movements. As the article says, pads have endured for a reason, and people too thick to understand them can stay on the Nintendo systems with their pony grooming/puppy euthanising/vegetable slicing simulators.
  • Calgon #35 3 years ago

    Don't you get what that the naysayers are repeating the same old statements regardless of what the people previewing it tell them, because they *desperate* for Natal to fail, another way of putting it is they are *scared* of Natal being a success. ;)

    I'm just going to wait and see personally, it looks promising, anyone reading the many previews we've had objectively can see that.

    They most likely aren't going to try and replace a controller for traditional style racers and shooters and so on, I can't see why there are so many people worrying about that, when nobody suggested it.
    Edited by 2 at 22/08/09 @ 15:33
  • makeamazing #36 3 years ago

    Well even Microsofts own internal games companies have said their own games will not suport the Natal in the AAA games, so we all know what types of games will use them intially, and this will be the wii fit/casual type games. Because as you say people dont necessarily play wii fit for 7 or 8 hours, but hardcore gamers do play Fable/GOW for that long...which will be a problem for more than 20 minutes as you say. So they cannot use Natal in that way for hardcore games, this is why currently there are no plans it seems from the major internal companies to use it as the main controller device.
  • VandelayIndustries #37 3 years ago

    I'd be a lot more interested in this if it could track your eyes. You look at something on the screen and the cross hair moves to that point.

    As for the mixing of pad/natal controls (for melee, lean and grenade throwing) just look at the Sixaxis approach to them, it gets boring and irritating very quickly once the novelty wares off.

    As it stands, Natal seems too laggy for the hardcore, too much of an effort if used to augment the traditional controls and seems destined for a future of mini games and fitness software.

    Also, how is this going to work without the user having rearrange their living rooms to accommodate this?
  • Calgon #38 3 years ago

    too much of an effort if used to augment the traditional controls

    LOL nah I think you'll find most are quite intrigued by the neat little extras Natal could bring them... head tracking being the most obvious but the rest could be down to the devs imagination. These of course would be optional extras if you do choose to pick up Natal... so there should be no complaints really.
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 15:43
  • Wolverfrog #39 3 years ago

    I can see this working really well with an RPG - Perhaps Halo Wars 2?

    You clench your fist to select units, buildings, etc, and then point at somewhere on the map to order your army to a location. Upgrades would be easy to buy, and Halo Wars wouldn't have to be dumbed down for a pad.
  • VandelayIndustries #40 3 years ago

    "LOL nah I think you'll find most are quite intrigued by the neat little extras Natal could bring them... head tracking being the most obvious but the rest could be down to the devs imagination."

    Try moving your head while focusing your eyes on your screen and see how long it takes before it gets old, and whether additional hand/arm movement is tracked by a camera or by sensors in the pad it won't last more than five minutes before the masses head straight into the menus to turn it off. It is a novelty.

    In after the edit.
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 15:49
  • Calgon #41 3 years ago

    I think you'll find you are assuming too much with having tried none of it sorry. Head tracking doesn't require you to move your head about like a loon for a start(obviously its more pronounced if you do)... are you just looking for excuses to dismiss it here or what?

    Too much effort to move your arms to throw a grenade... or do something other than clench the controller? Fine, dont buy it but there will be a heck of a alot of people who dont agree with you, so you aren't speaking for the masses or the hardcore, just yourself... which is fine aslong as you know this.

    All depends on how well its implemented really which is down to the devs but Im optimistic(echoed in many of the hardcore gamers) in it could work if done right this isn't some pointless tilting of the controller we are talking about afterall.
    Edited by 2 at 22/08/09 @ 16:16
  • subtlesnake #42 3 years ago

    "Try moving your head while focusing your eyes on your screen and see how long it takes before it gets old"

    Well the reception to TrackIR has been extremely positive from people who have tried it out themselves, so I think it would be a mistake to dismiss the potential of head tracking out of hand just based on attempts to move your head left and right, without any form of on screen response.

    A quick Googling turns up some impressions of head tracking in ARMA 2:

    "What can I say? The game was designed with TrackIR in mind and it works flawlessly. I have to say that the Track IR doesn’t really immerse you into the game as much as it gives you an extra level of control over it. Think of it as adding a second mouse or third joystick (for you 360 gamers) to use at your leisure. Also some people are wary of this tech because they don’t want to hurt their neck by moving their head around a lot. I can put this to rest by saying in ARMA 2 (and most other games) it would be silly to keep your head on a constant swivel. You would never be able to shoot accurately with your weapon. Thus you use the free look sparingly. I usually used it to survey my surroundings while running or while hiding. By turning just the head of your character you do not make much motion. Therefore you are harder to spot by the enemy. (If you don’t already realize or know this the TackIR just moves the view point of your character. The mouse still does the aiming.)

    But, unlike the free look, the lean function was amazingly useful to me and I used it constantly. Basically the lean works by you literally leaning your shoulders. The track IR uses the pitch and yaw of your head for free look and the x,y and z axis location for other stuff. Naturally leaning is done by lateral motion (x axis) and zooming is done with the z axis (moving closer or farther away). I found the zoom function in ARMA 2 annoying so I turned it off and elected to use mouse zoom instead. I also needed to turn the sensitivity way up on the x axis to get to the point where only a little lateral motion of my shoulders would cause the game to lean. Once set up it was bloody brilliant though. This allowed me to map other functions to my q and e keys and just made the game that much more fun. I honestly don’t see why lean isn’t used in more games.
    The flight in ARMA 2 isn’t exactly what I would call sim caliber but it gets the point across and once again the TrackIR performs flawlessly. Literally, this little camera thingy is everything I have ever wanted for flight sims. Tired of how clunky hat switches are? Tired of having your view locked forward? Tired of not being able to land well with helicopters? The answer to all of these is BUY A TRACKIR. It works, I promise."

    http://bo ards.ign.com/pc_general_board/b...
  • metalangel #43 3 years ago

    Head tracking, if it works as you say, will require you to keep you head extremely still lest it send your view spinning all over the place at an inopportune time. And it's not that we're too lazy to throw grenades... think of a fast paced action game (like Halo) where you're throwing several grenades a minute. You'll end up with Wanker's Bicep from all the movement, and that's even before I start on the issues of having to take you hand off the controller to make the ridiculous throwing gesture...
  • VandelayIndustries #44 3 years ago

    What I'm getting at, Cagon, is this type of thing has been tried before on the PS3 with Sixaxis and it proved to be an immersion breaker. Move your hands while holding and using the pad has already been tried and developers have either given up on it or at least made it optional. As for the head tracking? However subtle it may be I don't think it will succeed in the long term, just my opinion of course.

    That's not to say that it can't succeed with RTS's and Point & Clinks or even new types of games (even Sixaxs had Flower after all).
  • Bazfrag #45 3 years ago

    Good article. With a certain balance that *cough is sometimes lacking. Latency does'nt seem to be much of an issue. Ms can certainly broaden their appeal with this. Not sure something like Halo 4 will be Natal only though. Maybe some leaning, or nade throwing, and broken tvs from slippery joypads :)

    "Tsunoda reckons, then, that the current joypad is intimidating for some people and puts them off console gameplay."

    I dont think he gives people enough credit. I may even go as far as to say thats patronising. Mobile phones are far more fiddly than an ergononic 8 button joypad like say- the 360's, and millions of non gamers can operate them. Is SOME people enough people?
  • Calgon #46 3 years ago

    There are so many different ways to implement head tracking you could just play it as you normally do and still see the benifits, you dont like it dont buy it... plenty will though if done right as with all the other extras they may come up with(if done right).

    think of a fast paced action game (like Halo) where you're throwing several grenades a minute. You'll end up with Wanker's Bicep from all the movement, and that's even before I start on the issues of having to take you hand off the controller to make the ridiculous throwing gesture...

    This puzzles me, Im not in any way in tip top shape but really thats a weak arguement... no way would your arm get that tired just swinging out several times in a minute. You can't be serious maybe in some game called "nade whore wars" such a case as yours could crop up, but Halo is not really fast paced... never been likened to a twich shooter.

    This isnt the six axis, which I will say is probably a waste of time supporting, really how much more fun or immersive is tilting a pad. Natal could potentially offer something worthwhile to some core gamers too, to immerse them further into a game, if you aren't one of them, power to you.

    Like I said Im seeing alot of people looking for excuses why they want it to fail rather than genuine concerns, whether its because they fear it will take away from their enjoyment(it wont) or whether its because they fear it will be a success and their console of choice will be left behind(lame, even if that did happen, theres always next gen ;) ) is not important.
    Edited by 2 at 23/08/09 @ 16:40
  • subtlesnake #47 3 years ago

    "Head tracking, if it works as you say, will require you to keep you head extremely still lest it send your view spinning all over the place at an inopportune time."

    Well how much do you move your head when you're playing a game normally, given that you need to have your head centred to focus on the screen in the first place? If the system can cope with the subtle adjustments you make without moving the camera too much, you should still be able to kill enemies while your view is off centre. And looking away completely is like looking away without using head tracking isn't it? In both cases you lose focus on the screen.
  • Bazfrag #48 3 years ago

    Some quotes from comments board:

    "MS can easily incorporate simple wand for games that requires pointing precision."

    Doesn't that somewhat negate Natals standout feature and purpose somewhat?

    "For example, a lightweight gun and helmet for a shooting game could track the head movements and allow a shooting without relying on a dexterous, agile right-thumb."

    Again, whats the point when the idea is a controllerless interface? They may as well just make a wand and be done with it.
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 17:22
  • Calgon #49 3 years ago

    Bazfrag who says they are trying to phase out the controller completely? Have you taken a look at the comments from MS about hardcore/traditional games regarding Natal?

    There will still always be the need for a controller for those games, wand=controller=even more accurracy of input/level of control.
    Edited by 2 at 22/08/09 @ 16:47
  • Bazfrag #50 3 years ago

    "Bazfrag who says they are trying to phase out the controller completely?"

    "Tsunoda reckons, then, that the current joypad is intimidating for some people and puts them off console gameplay."

    This Guy :) (ok so he doesn't talk about phasing the joypad out) I don't think that will happen anyway, but joypad users are not the people Natal is aimed at, based on that. Instead of just the joypad, they also have to remember the gestures as well.....

    For gamers used to the pad, Natal could certainly augment the experience. Its gonna be interesting to see how they do it.
    Edited by 2 at 22/08/09 @ 17:09
  • KrissAkabusi #51 3 years ago

    I'm very confused by Natal. I don't understand who the target market really is, nor how this specific approach benefits the gamer. Only the voice control really spikes my interest.
  • Retroid #52 3 years ago

    Head tracking could work VERY well as a way to 'look around' corners and over things.... so long as it's in addition to the controller. Think of it as fine-tuning the look you're using on the second analogue and that's the kind of thing I think it'd be great for in addition to a controller.

    Also.... the controller *is* intimidating to some people. I've tried getting some people like my mother or uncle into gaming and they simply don't have their hands wired as we are... primary use is their index fingers, not their thumbs as an example. Getting my mother to play 1x100 was a doddle but I had to dig out the little IR remote MS gave away with the early Premiums at launch before she was comfortable answering X, A or B.
  • Arcadiian #53 3 years ago

    Looks fun to me. I don't care about the future of gaming, whether or not my arms will get tired or if Natal can track my bloody head. I just want a good time. It may turn out to be an unsuccessful gimmick, but I believe we have developers in our industry talented enough to provide a fun new experience with Natal. And if I'm wrong and you're all right, at least I'll have Milo to talk to. We don't need you!
  • metalangel #54 3 years ago

    I stand by my grenade comment. In Halo I threw a lot, and in Call of Duty 3 I threw a lot. It's not so much the physical side in this case as the repeated, exaggerated physical movement. As I said before, think in terms of a real game where you might need multiple attempts to get past a tough bit. Would you really persist with a tricky section like No Fighting In The War Room (CoD4) for as long as you might with a pad if you have to wave your arms around several times on each attempt?
  • Cassock #55 3 years ago

    Sorry are we forgetting disabled gamers here? If some one is in a wheel chair that 'Breakout' thing is stupid. Nice Tech but the discrimination too try and remove disabled gamers infuriates me. I am a Xbox kinda guy but if they remove the controller that Japanese dude and that Microsoft dude better look out for me cause I will find them and kill them and place a controller on there cold naked body !!!!!!!
  • lavalant #56 3 years ago

    @cassok Whos said NATAL will replace controllers? it won't and that's why it's an optional peripheral and if anything NATAL can only benefit many disabled people as it's far more flexible than a current controller.

    Also can people stop saying "how will NATAL work with COD, GTA etc" NATAL has nothing to do with these games, it's targeted at a casual market, there are certainly uses for NATAL to be used in more "gamer" games but i don't think we'll see many FPS games using it other than the odd gimmick support.

    It may well be refined and built into a nextgen xbox console, in which case we can all start to worry.
  • Bazfrag #57 3 years ago

    "Also.... the controller *is* intimidating to some people. I've tried getting some people like my mother or uncle into gaming and they simply don't have their hands wired as we are."

    Do they use mobiles? They can use a tv? Maybe its more to do with how much effort they are prepared to put in to learn the interface. Maybe its also a perception thing.?



    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 18:23
  • Retroid #58 3 years ago

    "Do they use mobiles? They can use a tv? Maybe its more to do with how much effort they are prepared to put in to learn the interface. Maybe its also a perception thing.?"

    Yes, but they're known quantities and the mobiles are used as phones, little more. It is a perception thing; if you're used to games controllers you're fine, if you're not it's a weird-shaped thing covered in sticks and buttons.

    And MS have never, ever said that this would *replace* controllers. They know most of the people they've sold / are selling to wouldn't accept that. It's all about being in addition to, rather than instead of.
  • miiiguel #59 3 years ago

    Good article, I can picture awesome parties with this stuff. Can't understand why ppl are talking about the possibily of Natal being used for every game.
    I mean, do you use that Sixaxis thing to open doors or turn your head in every game?
  • estarriol #60 3 years ago

    "Personllay I hope all this motion sensing crap will go away and die in a fire. most gamer's when they come home just want to sit down and unwind by playing a game, not standing in front of a tv waveing there arm's around like a twat.
    call me when we get full VR which we can control with our mind. "

    This.

    "What I'm getting at, Cagon, is this type of thing has been tried before on the PS3 with Sixaxis and it proved to be an immersion breaker. Move your hands while holding and using the pad has already been tried and developers have either given up on it or at least made it optional. As for the head tracking? However subtle it may be I don't think it will succeed in the long term, just my opinion of course.

    That's not to say that it can't succeed with RTS's and Point & Clinks or even new types of games (even Sixaxs had Flower after all)."

    And this.

    I don't want to have to jump around my living room to play the game.
    I don't want to have to rearrange the layout of my room so that I can play anywhere on the screen.
    I don't want my success on driving games to be based on how long I can hold my arms up.
    I don't want to be wondering whether I just lost on breakout because I punched the wrong bit of air.
    I don't want to have to carefully control the position of my entire body in case I scratch and lose the game.

    I do want to sit wherever the hell I like in my room, in whatever position I like, and only move my thumbs to play a game of whatever complexity. Wake me up when they develop that controller.

    Oh, wait...
  • miiiguel #61 3 years ago

    @ estarriol: Don't buy Natal/PSWand/Wii then. Simple, no ?
  • metalangel #62 3 years ago

    "family and friends" being "unable" to learn how to manipulate the controller should be "unwilling". My parents complained for years about my increasingly complex controllers but they still made the effort to learn how the PS2 I gave them worked so they could play stuff like Bust A Move on it. They learned how to use my region convertor cart so they could play my imported Dr Mario 64. My mother has been "afraid" of PCs for years but now she has her own netbook she's learning basic computing. So yes, it's entirely possible for these luddite relations to learn how to use a controller too. The question that should really be asked is WHY they don't want to put the effort in. And the answer is not necessarily to provide crude, simplistic games where you wave your arms around like a twat.
  • Escher #63 3 years ago

    I think the Mic capabilities of Natal are largely being overlooked too. Combined with all the motion sensing, voice recognition/commands could add huge amounts of gameplay to many types of games. As already mentioned motioning to AI where you want them to move and then being able to issue the commands would feel very satisfying. Games like End War show that it can be done for simple comands so IF they can get the voice recognition levels as impressive as planed (shown in kate milo demo) where actual tone and stress of voice causes a reaction from AI it would be awesome. I imagine a GTA style game where you could actually walk into a bar and actually start a fight simply on your body language and vocal language. Hope it works!
  • MrsPacMan #64 3 years ago

    What a bunch of gays. Lighten up, this will rock
  • 3william56 #65 3 years ago

    So... kept the bullsh*t con that is Milo well away from prying/competant eyes? Surprising... not.

    Do I understand correctly that even now, there's a PC or some sort of box between the Natal unit and the Xbox (with the fancy IR displays), so you're still not seeing even remotely (!) close to a production version? And it still has 1/5th of a second lag even on a dead simple game? Killzone etc. may have a >100ms lag, but that's after rendering the gameworld - the controller part of that is tiny. Add the rendering to the control lag, and even party games (say, Tennis) is going to be a shocker unless somehow MS can boost the performance as well as minaturising the gubbins and keeping it to a reasonable cost by next year. Jury is still out, and I hope it is the revolution they claim, but there's a strong smell of rancid hype in the air, and this has done little to dispel it.
  • busboy33 #66 3 years ago

    A few thoughts:

    *) Obviously lag is a critical issue. It certainly appears like there's a troubling amount currently -- not obscene, but enough to be unpleasant. How the hardware ends up next year will be the tell. No doubt MS recognize how important reducing lag is, so I'd like to think that the issue will be improved by then. If not, then they may have problems.

    *) Avatar recognition. Does anybody know how it will deal with two people using the same account? My brother-in-law has a gold account, and his daughter sometimes logs in to play guitar hero. He's not going to pay for another gold account just so she can play one game, but if Natal can't recognize that both of them are authorized under the same account then Natal has just blocked her from using the system, which would be a bad idea. Again, I assume MS recognize this, so hopefull there will be a way to assign multiple people to one account/avatar . . . but time will tell.

    *) Sony's wand. I'm not clear what prevents MS from adapting that as well into the system. If the Natal can account for the gyroscopic feeds in the wands, then it seems like selling two cheap wands to use with Natal could effectively duplicate the PS3 setup. Again, the level of fidelity in the final build will be decisive, but if Natal can match the wand design then MS effectively trumps Sony. The 360 can do all the wand controls that the PS3 can . . . plus more.

    *) USB. Obviously, this is a games site, and we're gamers. But I think people aren't appreciating how explosive this may be when connected to a PC. Assuming the hardware ships at an acceptable price point, there are ALOT of people that (IMHO) would love a "Minority Report" style interface with their PC. If Natal gets PC adoption, then the tech and the hardware become somewhat "standard", and the issue of adoption becomes a moot point. For this aspect, I see finger recognition as vital . . . at least the ability to recognize grabbing or making a fist. To me, THIS is the biggest draw for Natal, and the games application is secondary.

    Given the people working on the system, and given the time left to optimize the hardware and OS . . . well, it's too early to do anything but speculate, but considering what is there now I'm extremely excited to see the final build.
  • captain-future #67 3 years ago

    I'm not convinced although it looks better from time to time.

    Excellent article and cool that you mentioned the head tracking youtube thingie.
  • dredd97 #68 3 years ago

    natal = eyetoy, although it will cost a whole lot more...
  • busboy33 #69 3 years ago

    @Bazfrag:

    Respectfully, I agree with Kudo 100% about the controller being intimidating. I use it. You use it. Millions of people use it. Millions of people use phone keypads.

    BUT -- many, many more millions don't. I know many people that get frustrated with dual thumbstick controls, and as a result don't play games that require them. They'll play Guitar Hero / Rock Band . . . that they are comfortable with. But even navigating the menus in those games frustrates them ("strum down, hit the green button, strum up three times, etc.";).

    You can't think the success of the Wii is because tens of millions of people were wowed at Wii Sports -- they were wowed at a crappy game that they could actually play.

    SHOULD they dedicate themselves to mastering the dual-thumbstick, 2 triggers, two should buttons, 4 face buttons, back/start/menu controller? Maybe. But they won't, and that means lost sales, and a lost market.
  • makeamazing #70 3 years ago

    A six year old can use a controller, anyone who says Natal is required because there are people out there who cannot use a controller is a muppet. Sorry but you think a controller where people have to move their arms around is anymore intuitive than move a stick in the right direction... especially if the arm waving device incorrectly reads your movement (and even if its very accurate it will still do that at times). I sometimes think people just make up excuses to try and sell something people really dont need if they just spend two minutes learning something. This has nothing to do with users, this has all to do with the success of the wii.
  • busboy33 #71 3 years ago

    @makeamazing:

    Have you ever watched a non-gamer try a FPS? Motion with the left stick, and camera angle simultaneously with the right.

    What happens? They almost always focus on movement, and as a result end up looking at their feet or staring straight up at the sky. They can't see what's happening. When you remind them to control the camera, they stop moving, re-aim the camera . . . then go back to just moving, making the camera off-target in about 2 seconds.

    When an actual firefight starts, the panic of getting shot, dodging, and moving the camera to aim creates a mess. A mess, and one dispirited player.

    Everybody here most likely has had years and years of practice with the controller, going back to Ape Escape. Its easy to forget how many of us had to practice circle-strafing when it became an issue in FPSs.

    Compare the gap to texting. Many people text on numerical keypads almost quicker than they speak. They instinctively know that "hello" is "4433555pause555666". With practice anybody can do it. But if you don't have the practice, finding the right key for your letter, remembering to tap it enough times to cycle through the key options, pausing appropriately long enough to re-use the key for another letter . . . it's a slow, frustrating annoyance. And a phone with a QWERTY keyboard is instantly more appealing.
  • Les #72 3 years ago

    "Sony's wand. I'm not clear what prevents MS from adapting that as well into the system."

    Patents ;)
  • Les #73 3 years ago

    "there are ALOT of people that (IMHO) would love a "Minority Report" style interface with their PC."

    No doubt they will, until they actually use it... It looks cool but it's more elaborate than the current interface (bigger and more movements required) and much more prone to misreading user intentions.

    Current controllers are limiting but also efficient. Like the article says, Wii thrives when it plays to the strength (= uniqueness) of the new controller, not when it tries to use it for traditional controls. IMO the designers of Natal seem more concerned about what looks cool than about usability (in Spain this summer I saw the E3 mock-up video played over and over again in the xbox section of a video game store instead of gameplay footage for real games). But like we often learn most from mistakes, it'll no doubt play its part in the evolution of the controller.
    Edited by 1 at 22/08/09 @ 23:57
  • smelly #74 3 years ago

    "next big thing in gaming"

    .. no bias there at all then?
  • smelly #75 3 years ago

    I *STILL* say sony's wand is a better device more usable for games.. and no lag (unlike this thing).

    And NO i dont own a ps3, and i DO own an xbox (before someone accuses me of being a sony supporter or other such nonsense)
  • Pro_Gamer #76 3 years ago

    This is for retartds.
  • makeamazing #77 3 years ago

    Have you ever watched a non-gamer try a FPS? Motion with the left stick, and camera angle simultaneously with the right.

    @busboy33...do you really think Natal is aimed at non gamers who struggle to play FPS games? Really? Lets just take a look at the wii, how many of those users who arnt previous Nintendo owners purchased it because they wanted to play hardcore games. Lets be honest many are parents and adults who wanted Wii Sports or Wii Fit. Do you think these Silver Gamers (old timers) had trouble with the controller? How many Nintendo users purchased the conduit?

    I think people are mixing up what people think Natal can do, why its required and who its aimed at. I can tell you MS are not looking at using this primarily for the hardcore users, they are looking at trying to get some of Nintendos casual userbase. But there really isnt a problem generally with users being able to use a controller for easy things, like moving around the screen etc. Yes I admit FPS games are not the easiest things to play, but thats seriously not what this is about. I would say the Wii has the best device for FPS games anyway... pointing at the screen, do you think moving your arms for any length of time (which will hurt your arms very quickly), with the issues of reloading, shooting etc...I could go on..but whats the point... some people think Natal is going to solve everything, when actually its going to be great for wii fitness type games and other casual games (if they can fix lag problems).. but its not going to do anything that is going to solve this so called non existant "cant use a controller issue".
  • Les #78 3 years ago

    "Unless Microsoft implements something like a search/shortcut function utilizing voice recognition. "Play Halo 3", "List Netflix movies by genre: comedy", "Send message to Les" etc."

    Voice recognition is nothing new (thus not specific to Natal). The cheapest currrent PC can perform that trick (even my iPhone can do it) but except for helping people with a handicap it hasn't found widespread use. Apparently it doesn't improve enough (if any) on the existing methods of user input to warrant a switch (or be used simultaneously).
  • Gaol #79 3 years ago

    Wow, that head tracking/3d youtube video the article links is outstanding.
  • womble #80 3 years ago

    Goddamn, fanboys are the pits.

    Seriously, get a grip you freaking fantards.

    You haven't even used Natal -- unlike DF -- and yet you're bagging out a technology simply because you own a PS3 or you're a PC Gamer (as if it were a badge of a pride, to separate you from the dumb masses.)

    If you can't see any value in Natal, then, frankly, you're a freaking idiot with no vision whatsoever. And if you can't see any value in the PS3's motion technology, or the advances that the Wii has brought for casual gaming, then you are similarly deficient.

    BE HONEST, FANTARDS: the only reason you are bagging Natal -- and DF -- is because you don't own a 360. If it were a Sony product, you'd be drooling over and saying it's the "next big thing", mocking 360 owners for not having it.

    GROW THE F UP.


  • busboy33 #81 3 years ago

    @insane_cobra:

    Ironically, I had the exact opposite experience. As a lifeling console gamer, I tried a PC FPS last month. The keyboard-mouse control scheme drove me nuts!! "switch weapons! what is it, 2? 3? dammit, wrong button! gotta get my hand back to the movement keys! Whoops -- wrong keys! ARRRGH!"

    @Les:
    "No doubt they will, until they actually use it... It looks cool but it's more elaborate than the current interface (bigger and more movements required) and much more prone to misreading user intentions."
    For some things, yes. I'm excited for controlling applications like Powerpoint. Mouse over to the zoom bar, grab and slide, reposition on the window, grab and pull it around, select an object, mouse over to animations, click and scroll to "motion path", slect and scroll to my choice, mouse over to main window to designate a point, mouse over to the zoom bar, select and reduce . . .
    I dream of grabbing the main window, pulling it into a zoom, grab to move to my object, grab, say "animation . . . motion path . . . 4", point where I wsant the terminal point to be, push zoom out . . .
    Certainly for some things it won't be as effecient as mouse/keyboard controls . . . but there are certainly some areas it could be a benefit -- especially if it can recognize two hands as two pointers.
    (of course, it could simply be that I hate the interface of Powerpoint like I hate Hitler. ANYTHING would be preferable :) )

    @makeamazing:
    I agree 100% this isn't to get grandma to start teabagging in Halo. Regardless, the controller itself is a concern for using the 360 for other, casual applications.
    The 360 can be used as a media extender from your PC, or for Netflix. If you don't have the "TV remote" for the 360, you have to use the controller to utilize these features that are arguably appealing to non-gamers. It's not terribly difficult to navigate the dash with the remote . . . but I have watched non-gamers literally recoil from picking up the controller. They say "I want to watch a movie", so you pass them the controller and tell them to scroll down with the left thumbstick to Video Marketplace, select it with the green button, scroll to Netflix, select with the green button, etc. It's simple, but at least two different people I watched looked at the screen, looked down at the controller . . . then just put the controller down. It's like they think they are going to accidentially hit the "self destruct" button. "Netflix", wave left/right to scroll to your choice, "play movie" . . . there's appeal in that.
    There is something visually intimidating to non-gamers in all the buttons, triggers, and sticks/direction pads. If you've ever had somebody ask you to help them hook up their new AV system, you've probably had the same reaction. Every input on the back is clearly labeled. The connections are color coded. Any moron that can read and can tell white from red (or light from dark if you're colorblind) can figure it out if they just take a deep breath and don't panic. But they see a row of inputs, a bunch of cables, and they freak out.
    I'm not getting down on these people -- I'm the same way. I've been planning to build my own PC (1st time) for about two months now. I've watched instructional videos -- it's pretty damn straightforward. Things really only go in one possible place. There's really only one way for things to connect. It appears to be pretty hard to screw it up. But I won't deny that I'm pretty terrified of the process, so much so that I've asked a PC-competent friend to supervise. I've asked them to supervise rather than do it for me because I like to learn things like this, but if I wasn't interested in expanding my knowledge base I'd pay him $50 to do it for me in a heartbeat.

    @Goal:
    Have you seen Johnny Lee's finger tracking video?
    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU
    [/link]
    I can't believe Nintendo didn't hire this guy. I have alot of hope for Natal knowing he's one of the team.
  • mkreku #82 3 years ago

    Natal + Fight Night Round 5 = yay.
  • KrissAkabusi #83 3 years ago

    @womble

    I own all three consoles and find Natal interesting tech, but really don't understand its market yet. I've yet to see anything that would convince casuals to choose it over the Wii, or would get a significant chunk of core have it supplement their current set-up.
  • Les #84 3 years ago

    "In any case, it would solve that particular problem for many people. You can argue it all you want, but you know I'm right."

    lol :)

    I think Natal (and to a slightly lesser extent Sony's wand) is an inefficient solution to the 'problem' that Wii has addressed already.

    The masses not flocking to video games IMO has not so much to do with a control issue but with a lack of games that tickle their fancy. To put it another way, there's no magical controller out there somewhere that when discovered will all of a sudden draw the masses to FPS games. The masses don't care for FPSs (or other hardcore games) and no controller is going to change that.
  • Les #85 3 years ago

    "(of course, it could simply be that I hate the interface of Powerpoint like I hate Hitler. ANYTHING would be preferable :) )"

    As a frequent PPT user myself I feel you ;)
  • VMerken #86 3 years ago

    Quite simply put: everything has its advantages and disadvantages. It's all about priorities. Playing a video game, the first priority should be that your input is translated by the game in a fast and efficient way - then, your chances of success can be maximised. The second priority should be that you can do your input in a way that feels natural - which allows you to quickly get into the game and reduce its learning curve.

    To me, the first priority is all-important because it stays important throughout the entire game's life cycle. To me, the second priority is only really important during the initial stages of the learning process and as such, nice to have but not all that important.

    As such, things as Natal, which place the the "nice to have" priority in favour of the all-important one, are not interesting to me. I'd rather wait until the system has a response time equivalent to that of a regular controller and full body mapping so that you can do Minority Report style things with it - which would then allow the system to cater for priority numero uno.

    Incidentally, since Natal tracks 48 points of up to 4 people at a time, why not allow the system to increase the number of points depending on the game? For example, if you're playing a single player game, why not let Natal use its full potential and track 4 x 48 points = 192 points instead of 48? Those excess 144 points could be used to accurately map the hand with, for example.
  • Bazfrag #87 3 years ago

    @busboy. Fair enough. I +1 you. Lets hope the message is clear to those people though - Controller free gaming, and not Controller free gaming - now hold this....
    Edited by 1 at 23/08/09 @ 10:17
  • ILOVEU #88 3 years ago

    Look lets get something straight here, I'm no luddite and I'm all for change IF it actually makes things better. But from what I've seen of Natel so far it just leaves me cold. I'll repeat again-look at the burnout vid-the guy is barely in control of the car. Reason: its too laggy and without an actual real stearing wheel in his hands he has no reference point to ho far he is actually turning the imaginary steering wheel. How is this better?

    Games are about skill at the end of the day and all I see is a mass dumbing down of that skill factor with these motion gizmos. None of them are accurate or good enough to recreate complex movements so to compensate they dumb down the gameplay. I mean just because it might work for say Fight Night, doesn't mean its going for Streetfighter, Virtua Fighter or Tekken. How the hell do I pull off some over the top spinning special move like a hurricane kick with this thing, let alone reproduce a complex combo?

    Thanks to Microsofts millions (Microsoft has lost what something stupid like $6 billion on the X-box so far and counting) this will get forced on us because they need something to combat the Wii and if you don't like it tough-you're an old fuddy duddy. Because it only works on a few styles of games, kids will get indoctrinated by marketing propoganda into believing that these are the best styles and only styles of games and everything else is crap. Far from spreading gaming to wider audience motion control is narrowing the spectrum of games people are allowed to like and making gaming an even more niche pastime.

    Oh a final note Back to the Future 2 was on TV yesterday. There's a scene where McFly is in the future and he goes in a retro 80's cafe. There's a light gun arcade machine, McFly plays it and shows some cool gaming skills. He feels pretty pleased with himself, we the audience think nice shooting. Then he hears laughter, turns around and some kids are pissing themselves. "Hahahahhahahaha, have you seen that, you actually have to use your hands" laughs one of the kids and we the audience are meant to think gawd how lazy are kids in the future. Behold: the future of gaming.
  • Calgon #89 3 years ago

    There is nothing *that* unique about Sony's wand its not an original idea(its Sonys wiimote), there is nothing to stop MS releasing a device just like it to go with their unique camera... = win : win. Oh and Smelly someone dug up posts of yours from around launch which show you are a Sony appologist and an MS cynic, you've been consistent atleast I'll give you that but please don't try and deny/hide it. ;)

    We can see this just by looking at your day to day behaviour too, I dont know who you think you're fooling stating you own a 360 so many times(it's irrelevant in your case whether you do or dont, it's also so commonly used in internet arguements to get an advantage that its meaningless these days). You show nothing but negativity and cynacism towards the 360, yet to the PS3 you have been caught out *buying the hype* and *defending* it countless times, like you are doing yet again with the wand... how suprising! All the while being hypocritcal enough to label other people as gullable hype munchers when most are just taking the sensible wait and see approach... way to go Smelly.

    MS already have patents for motion control style controllers, theres 3rd party ones been announced that seem to be just as accurrate as the PS3wand but without the marketing budget or media attention to hype it up to such a scale. The thing about the wand is it deffinately does look like it will replace the existing controller for those that buy it, which as a perhipheral could pose problems since they will still have to cater to those with the standard controller(you cant really have the wand as an extra can you? It's either one controller or the other).

    Some links proving some of the stuff I've said about about MS patents, 3rd party products ect:
    [link url=http://news.teamxbox.com /xbox/16252/Microsoft-Patents-Wii-Remote-Killer-Game-Control ler/
    ]http://ne ws.teamxbox.com/xbox/16252/Micr...[/link]
    [link url=http://www.joystiq.com/2009/ 03/25/gdc09-gametrak-freedom-motion-controller-detailed/
    ]http://ww w.joystiq.com/2009/03/25/gdc09-...[/link]

    Thats just a few examples that we know about, there will be lots of patents and prototypes that we haven't yet and they probably will come up with something to go along side Natal for their core gamers and why not?(They have always looked after their core gamers from what I can see, they realise how important they are) Sony are allowed to follow Ninty or realistically the way the industry seems to be heading(Sony follow MS alot too these days) but MS aren't? From some of the comments here it sounds like they dont want a wand/wii-mote either, i.e. no "wavy wavy - pointy pointy" at all, just another traditional controller(I wouldn't mind that but wouldn't complain if they tried something new either, providing it works/feels better than what came before it).

    It's funny that most of us with a little optimism are telling the cynical people who seem up their own asses without knowing much of anything, that we are going to wait and see and stating our reasons why it could work, which they can't argue with. Yet they still seem to think they are the rational thinkers.

    Stop being douches, wait and see.
    Edited by 6 at 23/08/09 @ 17:27
  • Rodchenko #90 3 years ago

    The masses not flocking to video games IMO has not so much to do with a control issue but with a lack of games that tickle their fancy.

    That. I find the tech quite impresssive, but the whole "we want to make people approach games who are intimidated by a controller" scheme is just utter bollocks. Like my mother would be any less intimidated (or any less confused) by having to jump around in front of her TV set. In fact, it would most likely add embarrassment to intimidation.

    In the end it's all about jumping on the Wii bandwagon and trying to get a slice of the casual cake. Fine with me. But stop coming up with far-fetched explanations. Goes for both, BTW (MS and Sony).
  • Calgon #91 3 years ago

  • gaselite #92 3 years ago

    I desperately want Natal to fail. Not for any petty, pathetic 'I support a huge corporation as if they were my football club' reasons though. I just want to see the 'Post-Natal Depression' headlines.
  • Les #93 3 years ago

    "Nice try, but the problem I was talking about is the one you previously mentioned and I quoted, not the one you're talking about now."

    You're the one that mentioned people being 'handicapped' in the sense that they can't operate a controller. That's bullshit IMHO.

    As for the voice control, think I was clear about that one.
  • Diomedes #94 3 years ago

    Oh Richard Richard Richard ......so much writing and hyping and you havent even asked the more simple and obvious question.How the hell will you move in an open world like Zelda ,Fallout 3 ,Oblivion ,even Uncharted or Gears ?

    Without analogue sticks you just CANT .

    This turns all the Natal tech wizardries into a moot point.

    It will only serve casual games.Mark my words .
  • Diomedes #95 3 years ago

    So to make this actually work in games with any substance you must use the X360 standard controller.

    SO much for the "your body is the controller!" gimmick .....it will be even more complicated.
  • Widge #96 3 years ago

    Yay, so normals can still be intimidated by controllers in the end anyway!
  • pixelsumo #97 3 years ago

    i wrote a blog post taking a closer look at project natal
    pixelsumo.com /post/project-natal

    there is a demo where sony did full body tracking using a depth camera for ps2 on there too.
  • tancredo #98 3 years ago

    I am surprised by some people's lack of imagination.

    I keep reading comments such as "I don't want to jump around in front of the TV set" or " It will be impossible to do a double jump off a wall plus sword attack using the Natal", ...

    I can think of being sitting on a couch and just:

    - Lower the remote to crouch in COD, or even lower to lie down
    - Hold my hand up to tell my squad to halt in Rainbow six or grab a ladder
    - Do a throwing motion to "throw" a granade in GOW
    - Do a jumping motion on a 110m hurdles race by pulling my legs of the floor, or push my hand forward toward my partner on a relay race
    - In more casual / arcade driving games where a .1 sec lag is not such an issue, hold my remote perpendicular, like a stearing wheel, just using the triggers to accelerate / brake and the right stick to switch gears up/down.
    - Interactive games for small kids, painting / numbers /shapes,
    - The already mentioned "let's get fit" games.

    The point is there are more subtle uses to the Natal which could make games more "real", besides running all over the room breaking furniture.





  • GreyBeard #99 3 years ago

    @Tancredo

    The stuff you describe sounds like what Sony had in mind with the Sixaxis... and that failed to set the world on fire so why should this be any different?

  • Shadders #100 3 years ago

    @ GreyBeard

    Because this isn't shit like the Sixaxis, I work at a developer who makes PS3 games and we get so little support for the Sixaxis, it's as if Sony would like to pretend it's not even there anymore.

    Natal though, looks lovely, imagine if they do Halo Reach and you control your team through hand (or arm) signals, just like in the Halo novels, it would be AWESOME! I know the article says that it can't pick up fingers, but I reckon it could pick up hand rotation and perhaps even fist opening and closing, which would open up the possibility for loads of possible hand signals.

    I'm making the assumption that Reach is a squad shooter here, I could be wrong on that of course. But if not Halo then Rainbow Six or even Gears could make use of it - the amount of times I'd wished I could have told Dom to stand still!

    I think that's where Natal will come into its own and really knock the Wii into touch, not necessarily as a controller in itself, but in an extension of the existing controller - adding extra layers of control to existing (traditional) games.

    Surely head tracking has to be on the way too?
  • GreyBeard #101 3 years ago

    @Shadders

    Its still a gimmick. There's no guarantee its going to add anything to the experience.

    The whole proposition is that adding gestural controls is going to make things better. The question is how does it make a particular experience "better"?

    I can't see hand signals adding much to Reach, who the hell wants to take their hands of their controller in an online action game? That's why we use headsets & mics!

    Natal's big thing is that it offers a controller-free interface. If you want to use both controller and gestural input the smart choice is to build it into the controller like Nintendo and Sony have done! If you go the way Natal is doing, if you want both you are creating mental/physical work for the player because you're getting into the "pat-your-head, rub-your-tummy" field of ambidextrous motions.

    And besides, conventional controllers are based around a two-handed grip. Take the other hand away and its horribly gimped for most uses.

    The key thing is that Nintendo's stuff is successful because it knows and understands the specific type of experience it offers. In titles like Wii Sports they aren't seeking to create a more realistic experience in the sense that its simulation is the most accurate around. Its fun, and accessible, and there's a strong sense of "performance" (as in playing to the crowd) in doing what you're doing.

    Those virtues simply do not apply to a "gamer's" game. It needs to offer something that actually enhances performance, otherwise its just a gimmick.

    And outside of head-tracking (which just needs a camera), I can't see there being much use.


  • bogmonster #102 3 years ago

    it looks great and everything.. but i just have a feeling that it's going to be rubbish, a great idea that just wont work.. like the wii.. Really good fun, but when was the last time you played with it?
  • Shadders #103 3 years ago

    GreyBeard

    You seem to be arguing for the sake of it, if you genuinely believe that the ability to do hand gestures wouldn't add something to a squad game you are INSANE, how does it work at the moment for squad games? Select commands using the D-pad? maybe have a quick menu? In what world is doing a quick hand signal - say a clenched fist - not better than that? it would take no time at all, you could do the action quicker than your character reloads. I don't know if they'd be of benefit online, I'd need to sample it to judge, but certainly for offline play it'd be awesome.

    "Natal's big thing is that it offers a controller-free interface. If you want to use both controller and gestural input the smart choice is to build it into the controller like Nintendo and Sony have done!"

    Of course there will be games that don't use a controller, all the Wii style party games will no doubt be Natal only, people were questioning how this could work in an FPS or other traditional game, I was just suggesting that it would best work as a compliment to a traditional controller, something that Sony and Nintendo's controllers definitely cannot do.
  • GreyBeard #104 3 years ago

    @Shadders

    To answer your question: Because pushing up on the d-pad is quicker and more intuitive. Which is what you need when you're in a tense firefight and your clan is counting on you.

    Particularly in an online environment performance is everything. If there's a better, faster alternative, most players will take it.

    If its superfluous to the playing experience, its a gimmick.

    Noone gushes about rotating the door-handles with 6-axis in Killzone2, because it doesn't add to the playing experience. More than anything else its an inconvenience.
  • metalangel #105 3 years ago

    @tancredo: have a read of my previous comments as to why making gestures to throw grenades and such is a very stupid idea.
  • Shadders #106 3 years ago

    GreyBeard

    Personally I'd say that the bigger problem with using them online is how you'd communicate my hand signals to other people on my team, as I said I'm not really sure it's suited to online. But there's no way on this earth it wouldn't be better in a single player game, squad controls are notoriously annoying in pretty much every game, purely due to the limited number of actions that can be assigned to a controller, unlike your arm/hand which, as I'm sure you're aware, can do all sorts of fancy shapes, flicks and movements with incredible ease.
  • darc #107 3 years ago

    "Wii works because the innovative hardware is backed by some of the most gifted developers in the world, who have successfully managed to capture the imagination of a new type of gamer. Compare and contrast this with the company that has brought us commercial flops like Lips and You're In The Movies."

    Did you write this with a straight face? Of course, Nintendo is capable of producing - and has produced for Wii - some amazing games, but when you account for the notorious 3rd party shovelware factor, your statement starts to look like complete revisionism. If anything, the Wii succeeds *despite* the majority of the software being crap, because a) the hardware presents novelty value, and b) the marketing attracts a new type of consumer that doesn't really know better. To imply that MS and the 3rd party developers typically associated w/ the 360 are, collectively, less capable than Nintendo and the ragtag bunch of "developers" that have been filling the Wii shelves is nuts IMO.

    And again - I'm talking about the "majority" of the Wii games, with a particular focus on 3rd party shovelware. I'm not denying that there are some fine games for the platform.
  • GreyBeard #108 3 years ago

    @Shadders

    Why are you disagreeing so vehemently with me?

    I'm not trying to score points against you by finding flaws in your examples. I'm just trying to illustrate that there's a big difference between "more fun" and "more useful".

    There is a HUGE difference between the two, and to whom the distinction matters.

    My point is simply this:
    If your product is a casual one, you can focus fully on the "fun" factor.
    lf its a "core" title your additions need to be meaningful on a performance level.

    Motion control is big on fun, but in most cases is less effective than conventional interfaces when an alternative already exists.

    As a species we use tools to make life easier for ourselves. Taking those tools away is actually a step back, not a step forward because the reality is that Natal is not a mind-reading device.

    All you are doing is changing the way you tell the machine how to respond, so time and effort involved is of the utmost importance. Is it easier, quicker and more effective waving or gesturing than just pressing a button?

    It's a basic question of "fit for purpose". Look past the hype and ask yourself what would you rather do 100 times over the course of a 90 minute play-session.
    Edited by 1 at 24/08/09 @ 17:04
  • Beige_Alert #109 3 years ago

    Even though I scratch my head as to how and if Natal will work it's still brilliant of MS. They couldve done like Sony and gone for a wiimote but instead decided to innovate. Since they're the market leader it's brilliant as they're big enough to support the tech on their own and it will mean true exclusives for the system. If they had done a wiimote the games couldve easily been ported to their competitors.
  • SpaceMonkey77 #110 3 years ago

    Damn you, Nintendo. Why can't we have gaming be what it is and be comfortable with that? While I applaud the success of the Wii, I fear the games industry jumping in head first with full motion control. The call of the casual bucks cries out to developers and publishers, but a huge portion of games available currently are bad and ill thought out.

    I'll give Natal and PSWand a chance to shine, but overall, the reason many of us play games are to escape from reality and relax. Full motion control feels too much like work, or other mundane things we do like going to a gym, and when there's less to no good fun, that's when I opt out and a normal games controller is my friend.

    The variables of why such full controls are flawed to a degree are based in one fact from my amatuer science of outis degree, which is that people get tired, after working all day. That's right and simple. You don't fancy a round of boxing after being at work all day, because most normal gaming is about relaxing, be it on your ikea sofa, in the hot tub or on the can, pushing brown.

    Just looking at the Wii catalogue, its easy to see how limiting it interface can be, when going through the game creation process. Many developer know their ideas will hjave no home of Wii, due to Nintendo's cheap ass idea of console creation. While Natal and PSWand might fill this game with better tech option, I still doubt that better games will be created than what the current genre of normal games offer.

    What's more heart breaking, is always seeing those games that try that little extra, and do what they do well, only to be ignored and left out in the rain of crap games, for company. Zack and Wiki was cool, but no one, neigh not enough people purchased it. What's to stop this all happening again on Natal etc.

    I heard whispers of Valve doing something with sign language for Half Life 3 (correct if wrong). If that pans out, it could be the positive ticket for such motion gaming, but will it be enough to save the whole motion control concept from doom? It could all end rather horribly and over ambitiously, like FMV and VR games did ages ago. The devs are trying to sell it hard, and while those videos look cool, so did FMV and VR, in cheesy pixelated and mega blocky polygon ways.

    I'm happy with the status quo, of controller, headset, game console, game, online play and sweet legion of friends. Come in, sit down, relax and enjoy. Too much change can be a bad thing, and frankly I don't see gaming being topped much, than where it is, right here, right now.

    So come on, MS and Sony, dazzle me and change my negative mindset on this one.
  • busboy33 #111 3 years ago

    @greybeard:

    " Because pushing up on the d-pad is quicker and more intuitive."

    Quicker? maybe, but we'll have to see the final hardware build to make that call. More intuitive? It is more intuitive to command your squad to go forward and attack by pushing a button up than to wave your hand forward?

    It's more intuitive to us, because we're adjusted to the controller. It's not more intuitive to navigate a FPS by moving the left stick to translate in the XYZ axes and manipulating the rightthumbstick to orient the camera. That's an arbitrary control scheme.

    I can't speak for you, but as for myself I know that when I play games I lean and flinch and move my hands along with the game, regardless of the facte that it has no impact on the controls. When I play a racing game, if the tension is high I lean into corners. In a FPS I'll duck my head when I take fire, or lean a bit towards cover if I'm under pressure to get there. When ordinance comes in I reflexively shrug down a bit at the impact.

    I don't make those motions and guestures because they have any effect (not do I do it to amuse non-gamers watching me, despite what they may think). I do it because those physical motions are intuitive. If you're taking fire and need to hide behind a low wall to avoid the bullets, ducking is far more intuitive than "push the duck button".

    I once had car that had an automatic-manual transmission. It was automatic, but I could override it at will by tapping up on the stick to shift up a gear or tapping down to downshift one gear (2000 Lincoln LS). I showed the system off to my buddy, who sneered and said it was counter intuitive. Shift up shound be in the zig-zag pattern (1st gear should be up-left, 4th gear should be center-down, etc.). He said he'd never use a system, because he would intuitively stomp on the break as a clutch when shifting (the sytem auto-clutched, so there was no clutch pedal).

    How would it be intuitive, if you want to go to a higher gear, to step on a pedal? If I want to go from 3rd to 4th (gearing up), how would it be intuitive to pull a stick backwards?

    It's only "intuitive" because we're trained in that system. I love manual transmission cars, but I've trained many non-manual drivers how to shift and it certainly isn't intuitive for them. After an hour or so if destroying their transmission in a parking lot, then maybe.

    When/if you play a specific FPS for a sustained time, do you notice that when you move to another game with a slightly different control scheme it seems counter-intuitive? If re-load is the right bumper in game "A" and assigned to the X button in game B, it seems confusing until you readjust.

    There is a huge difference between "intuitive" and "practiced". Practiced is your reaction when you're fully integrated into an arbitrary control scheme (stepping on a pedal to shift, pushing an assigned button to control your squad, etc.). Intuitive is your reaction when you're NOT familiar with an arbitrary control scheme (yelling "attack" to make your squad attack, ducking to avoid fire, etc.).

    I see here and elsewhere many people seem upset at the potential of "replacing" or altering the dual-stick control standard. Maybe I'm not so concerned about that aspect of motion control because I started gaming with the Atari 2600. I've gamed, to some extent, on at least 5 seperate control interfaces (2600, Intellivision, Colecovision, dual-stick, mouse/keyboard). Each required new hand positions and re-learning control movements . . . but they all turned out fine (except for Intellivision, which sucked donkey balls).

    Natal and the Wand COULD turn out to be a huge clusterf#ck. Look at some games on the Wii. While they use motion controls, many of them are hardly "intuitive" ("to run forward, turn the controller so it rests sideways/horzontal to the floor, then rock it up and down. Here, well display an animation of what we want you to do, because we know you'd never figure this out intuitively . . . ";). But thinking that the dual-stick semi-standard interface is more "intuitive" is, respectfully, not accurate.
  • SpaceMonkey77 #112 3 years ago

    Well, I think the dual stick controller is still the best way, to play the vast genres of games that the industry offers. Its not perfect, but its still the best thing we'll have for a while.
  • GreyBeard #113 3 years ago

    @busboy33

    You make some excellent points, and I agree that a lot of what we consider "standard" actions are learned and ingrained from years of practice.

    The thing is though, more than anything else what Natal needs to bring to the table is the ability to do a lot of things better than what we have currently. Just being "different" I don't think will cut it, especially for 360 players who are (I think anyway) very happy with the existing controller setup, and importantly who play a lot of competitive online games.

    Obviously this has to be MS top priority, because if for example playing a Natal enhanced Halo Reach gives a players a major advantage over those who are just playing with a stock 360, you have a huge motivator for adoption.

    On the other hand if using Natal doesn't help, or in fact hinders players (even during a period of "learning" the new systems) they risk a backlash.

    This scenario is completely different than on the Wii, as there the Wiimote and nunchuck are neccessities and the style of game is more sociable and less hardcore competitive.

    Its quite a risky thing, and the reality is that until people start incorporating these systems into their games (and refining their implementations over time) nobody knows how well its going to work or how well its going to received by the player-base.

    Its not a matter of doubting the technology, its effectiveness versus existing systems is the big question mark.
  • KrissAkabusi #114 3 years ago

    "b) the marketing attracts a new type of consumer that doesn't really know better."

    No no nooooo. It's nothing to do with not knowing better. My nine-year-old sister knows exactly what she likes and it's not phucking FPSes. She would be bored out of her t'ts with a 360. I love the 360, it is my console of choice, but the arrogance of those who think the Wii is targeted to gaming retards is disgusting. The Wii works because it has provided a large chunk of the demographic with what they want in their life - fun, colourful games that you can dive in and out of.
  • busboy33 #115 3 years ago

    Despite my defense of Natal, I actually agre with you Monkey. I like my dualstick. As a theoretical issue however, Natal has made me look at gamecontrol from a "chicken/egg" perspective. Is the dualstick the best control scheme for playing current games because physically speaking it's the best combination of assets and ergonomics . . . or is it the best control scheme because games are designed to take maximum advantage of the "standard" in the medium?
    I wouldn't want to play MW2 without my dualstick, but on the other side games like Marble Madness or House of the Dead just aren't as fun unless you're using the trackball or lightgun (IMHO).
    If Natal is intended to be a "swap" replacement for the dualstick, all other things being equal, then I'm as leery as everybody else. Maybe it would work . . . but I'm from Missouri, to use the old phrase. If it leads to NEW games designed around the enhancements it provides over the dualstick, then I'm intrigued.
    Personally, I think that was/is the big failing of the Wii. It opens up new doors . . . but the control system seems extremely limited in terms of developer options. It doesn't use motion to control games, but rather uses a limited set of specific motions as replacements for buttons or stick movement.
    In some games this actually works well, like Guitar Hero or Rock band (I'm not talking the Wii versions here). It's the same input format as a dualstick, but the re-design of the buttons into a guitar shape enhances the experience (playing GH or RB with a dualstick is just not fun, or at least not AS fun). You could use the guitar controller to play Dig-Dug if you wanted . . . but it would suck.
    I'm hoping Natal is flexible enough to be essentially a "morphing peripheral". Use it in GH (with the guitar) and your character matches your animations. use it in an RPG and change how you interact with NPCs (threaten them by grabbing them or smacking them, or use the mythical "milo" emotional detection have NPCs react according to how you talk to them). It's going to come down to the creative skills of the designers. Would it be good for Ninja Gaiden? Exclusively, no. I'd rather use the dualstick. Would it be good for a lightsaber game? Depending on how the tech finally plays out, fuck yes!!
  • tancredo #116 3 years ago

    I agree dual stick control is probably the best way to control most games.

    But I also don't think MS intention is for Natal to substitute the dual stick as the method of control of most games.

    What I think Natal will bring to the table is:

    - Expand the catalogue of game genres (I agree probably most of them casual), bringing to the console ideas and games that were not possible under standard control methods. New and more complex party games using only Natal (full body control method) is a most obvious example.

    - Complement the dual stick control by adding extra funcionality to the controls, by expanding on the options available.

    More complex hand hand instructions in squad games would surely be welcomed on some games (instead of the traditional "stay" or "come here";). It would for sure be more real if you close your fist to tell your squad to stay and to do so, you have to keep eye contact with your squad, release your two handed grip on the control, and a voice does not need to go off on your headseat. -more real, not more efficient-

    And RPGs can for sure use more complex interactions that just clicking on a 3 choice answer.

    And I am tired of hearing dual stick is not good for strategy games. If natal can add something to it, be welcome.

    Personally I am happy for what Natal can bring to the console world. Anything which adds, and does not substract, can be considered good for gaming.

    Now it will be up to the developers. If they are able to implement Natal in meaningful and innnovative ways, great.

    If not, we will still have the dual stick.

    Sorry for the bla ba bla, english is not my first language
  • darc #117 2 years ago

    "No no nooooo. It's nothing to do with not knowing better. My nine-year-old sister knows exactly what she likes and it's not phucking FPSes. She would be bored out of her t'ts with a 360. I love the 360, it is my console of choice, but the arrogance of those who think the Wii is targeted to gaming retards is disgusting. The Wii works because it has provided a large chunk of the demographic with what they want in their life - fun, colourful games that you can dive in and out of. "

    Every time someone tries to make a critical point regarding the Wii, there is an immediate sequence of assumptions that the critic is a raging Halo fanatic who can't appreciate anything beyond machismo-themed 1st person shooters. That couldn't be further from the truth. And by the way, rushing in with terms like "arrogance" and "disgusting" is poor manners, and slightly hysterical.

    For the record, I never called anyone a "retard". (*If* I have any hostility whatsoever here, it's directed toward lazy, cynical developers.)

    I'm not damning casual gaming, and I love plenty of "cute", off-beat games and properties. This has nothing to do with it. The inevitable fact is that people who haven't thought much about video games since they played Space Invaders at the pub in 1978 are not aware of how far gaming has evolved in the last 30 years. And these consumers (whether shopping for themselves or their 9 year old loved ones) are more easily duped by the sort of developers who shovel half-hearted waggle-ware onto the shelves of Walmart etc. It's way cheaper to ship a bad game than a good one, and Wii developers know there are new consumers who don't know any better. SOME, NOT ALL of them, are taking advantage of those numbers.

    I am NOT talking about the likes of Mario Galaxy and I am not slagging off entire genres because of some pathological hatred of all things whimsical... I'm talking about quality. If you'd like me to post a list of games with review scores, I'd be happy to cut and paste from elsewhere on this very site.

    P.S. Your 9 year old sister would probably love Viva Pinata. And you'll be surprised to hear, I do too.
    Edited by 3 at 25/08/09 @ 15:39
  • Les #118 2 years ago

    "but the arrogance of those who think the Wii is targeted to gaming retards is disgusting."

    +1

    Very prevalent of course around here though.
  • mukki #119 2 years ago

    good article
    and interesting tech
    and ya maybe it will have a bit a lag or maybe not too early to tell
    software/games for it will make it or break it
    as mentioned in previous comments could be quite cool combined with a controller
    and will def open up the console to more casual gamers which can be argued as a good or bad thing :)
  • KrissAkabusi #120 2 years ago

    @darc

    It's not about what you like. Your stance was that a chunk of the wii market is there cus they don't know better.

    ".......how far gaming has evolved in the last 30 years. And these consumers (whether shopping for themselves or their 9 year old loved ones) are more easily duped........."

    These consumers see the same games on the shelf as the rest of us. They decide not to buy 360 and PS3 because it doesn't interest them. Simple. There is no duping. Is it hard to accept that some people are happy with waggle and novelty? Just because someone enjoys Wii Sports or Wii Fit doesn't mean they are going to enjoy GTA, MGS, Halo, Gears, or even Mario Galaxy.
  • busboy33 #121 2 years ago

    @GreyBeard:

    "The thing is though, more than anything else what Natal needs to bring to the table is the ability to do a lot of things better than what we have currently. Just being "different" I don't think will cut it, especially for 360 players who are (I think anyway) very happy with the existing controller setup, and importantly who play a lot of competitive online games.
    . . .
    Its not a matter of doubting the technology, its effectiveness versus existing systems is the big question mark."

    Agreed. Natal has to either enhances the current system, or there needs to be new games designed in such a way that the superior control scheme would be Natal.
    The Burnout demo as a suggestion that I should play the game exclusively with Natal did not work. However, as a demonstration of how easily Natal can be utilized by developers in their current game development and paradigms, it was powerful. As a studio I don't have to make "Natal exclusive" games, and if I wanted to just add some head tracking or voice recognition into my current development plans it dosen't appear like I'm going to have to re-write my code library to take advantage of it.

    I think that is one advantage Natal has over the wand. Since it is hands-free, I can build a game just for it or I can use the dualstick and just enhance the standard controls with Natal to whatever extent I deem appropriate. Since the wand requires my hand(s), games for it will have to be exclusively controlled by the wand (I don't see how I could use the wand with one hand and the dualstick with the other).
    Infinity Ward could make Modern Warfare 3 run just like normal with the dualstick, but if you have Natal it could use that as a bonus, like a "rapid fire" controller gives you an advantage without requiring a unique game. When you're calling in an airstrike, just call out the coordinates on the map to bomb. It's quicker, so you're less likely to get capped than scrolling over the map with the controller (encouraging Natal adoption), but if you don't have Natal you can still do it normally (without requiring adoption).
    With the wand, unless it has the exact same number of input options as the dualstick IW would have to design two different versions of the game: one for the dualstick and one for the wands. Depending on the cost-benefit they see, they might just decide to forgo the wands all together, which puts Sony back into the difficult position of people not wanting to buy it without software to use, and developers not making software unless there are people to buy it.
  • darc #122 2 years ago

    "These consumers see the same games on the shelf as the rest of us. They decide not to buy 360 and PS3 because it doesn't interest them. Simple. There is no duping. Is it hard to accept that some people are happy with waggle and novelty? Just because someone enjoys Wii Sports or Wii Fit doesn't mean they are going to enjoy GTA, MGS, Halo, Gears, or even Mario Galaxy."

    Again, you're missing my point. There is nothing wrong with the Wii conceptually, and there's nothing wrong with motion control, novelty, or even casual gaming. I have NO bias for the 360 or GTA et al - in fact the first platform I bought this generation was the Wii, and at that time I was heavily immersed in Mario and Zelda titles. A lot of assumptions are being made here in an effort to miss the point, which is that a lot of devs are getting away with selling huge numbers of bad titles because the average Wii owner doesn't sit around reading the likes of Eurogamer all day. Yes, they buy what they want, and that's as it should be, but they suffer more (or at least, they get less entertainment for their dollar/pound) than the "proper" gaming nerd, because there is always a margin in quality between what you think you see on the shelf, and what you actually take out of the case when you get home.

    I don't see what's so contentious about any of that. It's not an attack on the Wii, on Wii owners, on Wii gamers... it's just simple business, born out by lots of plain evidence. But if you want keep putting words in my mouth, have a blast.
    Edited by 1 at 26/08/09 @ 14:55
  • KrissAkabusi #123 2 years ago

    @darc

    "lot of devs are getting away with selling huge numbers of bad titles because the average Wii owner doesn't sit around reading the likes of Eurogamer all day".

    A bad title to you or eurogamer could be the best game ever to someone else. Try to get your head round that you arrogant, arrogant boy. You're a games fascist.
  • Oceans1999 #124 2 years ago

    Typical. They spend every minute calling the Wii 'gay' and not 'hardcore' until they get their own version and then start going blind defending it. Fwap, fwap, oh dear!

  • Grayvern #125 2 years ago

    @ Kriss, it's not games fascism on darc's part, its a valid point, you can't argue that ignorance is fine.

  • GiarcYekrub #126 2 years ago

    I still haven't seen a low light limited space test of this stuff by an overweight geordie until I have I'm yet to be conviced that this is the future of gaming
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/09 @ 22:14
  • Moonprince #127 2 years ago

    Basic, fun, concept-driven stuff like this is exactly where Nintendo excels, and it's good to see Microsoft following a similar line of thought. Just from playing this small demo, it becomes obvious that Microsoft could make a hell of a good Wii Sports-style game with this, and the body-mapping looks so precise that any fitness software it would want to produce has the potential to be astonishingly good.


    .....ffs
  • Moonprince #128 2 years ago

    "Make no mistake though, Natal is very, very smart. Natal is going to do amazing things for the Xbox 360"

    I'm just glad you qualified that statement and weren't just moving your fingers on the keyboard according to how msoft told you to. Well done there buddy...