Where do games go wrong?

By Tom Bramwell Published 24 June, 2002

Article - Mugwum trawls a number of developers and asks them

Obviously nobody sets out to develop a bad game, but somehow dozens of them still find their way on to shelves each year. Explaining why bad games get made requires a long and very arduous chinwag though, if you actually want to emerge from the conversation with anything of consequence. In fact, you could theorise about it for weeks, but unless you're talking to the people directly involved, it would be difficult to come up with anything of substance. Which is why we spoke to a number of developers both in the UK and overseas about their experiences across the years to find out exactly what makes a game turn out bad.

Although our sources prefer to remain anonymous, we can reveal that their collective CVs include seminal titles such as Syndicate and Grand Theft Auto, and we'd like to thank all of the contributors for taking the time to help in the preparation of this article.

Designer

During the process of making a game, a lot of things can go wrong. You could write a book about the potential pitfalls of game production (evidenced by the fact that some people do), but for me it all boils down to one crucial component: the designer. How many times have you seen interviews with designers who talk about a committee mentality and inviting input from everybody on the team? Now consider some of the world's most famous game designers, people like Shigeru Miyamoto, Yu Suzuki and Shinji Mikami. Their visions are singular and unquestioned, and the results are a reflection on their respective imaginations.

The job of the game designer is, obviously, to design the game. "That's not to say it is all cast in stone - far from it", according to one of our correspondents, who we'll call Dungeon Keeper (a sneaky hint at his past). "The designer should be prepared to make sweeping changes during the course of the project if that is what's required. Everyone can make a valid contribution but, at the end of the day, the designer is the one who has to collate and ultimately decide which ideas to implement."

The quality of the designer is a concern shared by another of our correspondents, erstwhile Brit-in-exile Bubby. "Designers deliver worlds where rooms are needed, novels where two lines of text are needed", he says, the painful memories piercing his subconscious. Designers make or break the game before anyone else does. You can build up one of the most intelligent and experienced development teams in the world, but if you give them the job of creating what is effectively a Tetris clone, nothing good will come of it. Come up with something original, potentially enjoyable and just plain exciting, and the team will respond. Entertainment breeds entertainment. Strong team morale and a design from somebody who knows and plays games is critical, and a good game is one dictated by gamers throughout.

Project Management

Even if you employ a good designer though, his work can easily be scuppered before it gets anywhere near retail. Fundamentally, as Bubby puts it, "it all comes down to poor management of the team and poor decision making". Bubby's scapegoating of poor project management is also the focus of another member of our panel, young Digit, who knows from experience that it pays for the designer to be the strongest and most experienced member of the team.

"Planning is tantamount to a game's production, and if that isn't handled by someone trained in project management the whole thing will go tits up", he explains. The most important component of project management is scheduling. "You need to slot together what people produce, be it design, art or programming, and ensure that when designer A needs artwork X, it's actually there and not scheduled to be produced three months down the line."

Dungeon Keeper agrees. "One of the hardest things in a game's development is guessing how long things are going to take. With ever increasing demands by publishers to deliver the goods on time, developers might find themselves having to compromise their final product to meet the deadlines. This is either in the form of refusing to alter a flawed design or changing the design but taking too long and missing the deadline. Talk about your all-time rock and a hard place situation."

"The whole production cycle needs to be scoped correctly", Digit adds. "If someone starts assuming that there will be time down the line for something to happen, rather than ensuring there actually is, you run into problems". There is a solution though, as Dungeon Keeper reminds us. "This can only be avoided by building in sufficient 'tweaking' time at the start of the project. Most developers tend to massively underestimate how much time they will actually need for this process", effectively signing their own death warrant.

Individuals and inflexibility

Laying the entire problem on the doorsteps of one or two people is a mistake though, as Bubby explains. "Programmers promise to deliver the latest, greatest features, then deliver a half-baked half working bodge that gets past the latest milestone but fails to provide a solid system to build a full game on. Artists deliver models and environments that are completely unrealistic for the technical requirements." Management is still to blame for employing these people to begin with, but by failing to do themselves justice, they let the entire team down.

"A better lead programmer would have delivered a realistic polygon/memory budget early on for the art team to work around, and a better artist would have demanded a poly budget to begin with", Bubby adds. "Developers consistently wait too long to fix (painfully obvious to outsiders) core problems with their technology and design, leaving it to the point where only 'quick fixes' can be applied to flaws in the game design or code."

Comparing videogame production to that of a movie is a total mismatch, and it always has been. Take for example the problems that a viewer may perceive with a Hollywood blockbuster. One might criticize bad plots, hammy acting, continuity errors, bad make-up, poor choice of costumes, anti-climactic visual effects, bad camera angles and a poor script for a start. These problems are the result of poor writing, acting, casting, editing, camera work, research and design decisions, and inadequate budgets - problems which stretch throughout the development and production cycle of your average movie and yet barely scrape the top layer from a barrelful of potential problems.

Apply the above pitfalls to the process of making a videogame. As a developer you not only face perceived problems with your game at the end of the road, but preconceptions and desires from punters which could thwart your plans right from the outset, and it's a combination of individual failure and inflexibility which is responsible. "The game should be played as often as possible as it is only through playing of the game that you will find out whether it's any good or not", Dungeon Keeper believes. "If elements of the design prove to be less fun than originally anticipated, then they should be taken out, or at least altered to be more fun. A problem that is sometimes encountered here is the programmer or artist stating that 'well, that's how it was originally supposed to work' and either not wanting or not having time to change the item in question."

External Pressures

As if all this weren't enough, developers are under constant pressure from publishers and license owners to adjust their vision. This messes with the whole carefully oiled dynamic by injecting confusion and last-minute problems into the already frantic maelstrom of development. Digit's experience with previous employers has taught him a thing or two about external pressure, and he sighs wistfully as he thinks of how it might work.

"You should have a clear project proposal okayed by the money people (publishers) from the off, which will define very clearly what you are going to do", he says, stroking his chin. "That makes it harder for them to change their minds about fundamental aspects of the game well into development without them bearing the cost of the change and accepting the project timeline will have to be adapted." Publishers ignorant about the realities of game design? Surely not!

"There will always be niggles that crop up and annoy developers passed on from nameless people with a vested interest in the game elsewhere", he says, stifling a cough which sounded an awful lot like the word 'marketing'. "You have to put up with those, but they will often turn what might have been a great section of the game into something totally indifferent based on one person's ill-informed opinion sat in an office miles from anywhere, and also probably not fully appreciative of what is trying to be achieved." Okay chap, steady on. Digit's right though - how often have you looked with a sense of complete disbelief at something in a finished game, pondering just how and why the people responsible came to this particular conclusion? For me, it's a day-to-day occurrence.

Game development also faces the machinations of a minority. "There is also the fact that some people will request changes purely so it looks like they're doing their job", Digit adds. "Those situations are hard to swallow. Sometimes, mostly with licensed games, if you look at the list of people credited in the back of a game manual it will be three or four times as long as the actual number of people who physically worked on producing the game itself. All those other people need their say in the way the game is made at some intangible level."

Conclusion

So what makes a bad game? Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. The problem with game development at the moment is that everybody has a hand. In the 1980's the whole thing could come down to one or two people working together on each other's side of the project as much as their own. Those games had problems too, but they were problems born of technological dissonance, budget issues, real-life work commitments and unpredictable consumer interests. Fast forward to the present day and we have developers and publishers slipping and sliding all over the stock market, folding and ejecting staff. An enormous amount of money is anticipated and required by those on every side of the projects that do see the green light. Perhaps if we moved back to smaller teams with an array of people doing exactly as they were told, things would be a lot more entertaining and blame a lot more assignable if things were to go wrong.

The key to this creative freedom is for producers and publishers to stop hassling the developer and let them get on with their work. Don't rush your games, chaps. If you want to hit a particular release date then plan ahead and don't go blaming the developer when a finished product is completely unobtainable a week prior to its delivery date. The key to a good game is a well-staffed developer with a good design document left to its own devices. If you don't know this by now, then you should.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (132) Latest comment 10 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • bionutz #1 10 years ago

    Didn't read the article yet but I'm sure it tackles something I'm very interested in... I am steadily loosing my interest in games... and I'm wondering if everything is allright with me or if there is something wrong with them (I'm 27)

  • mouse Verified Graphic designer, Eurogamer Network #2 10 years ago

    It's a subject I've chatted about time and again with mates. Certainly, the PlayStation might have one of the largest gaming back-catalogues ever, but exactly how much of that is quality gaming? A bafflingly low percentage.

    PC gaming in particular has seen a sharp decline in quality and production values, I feel, with only a handful of real contenders actually trying; games like Republic and Deus Ex 2 spring to mind, coming from developers that appear mindful of the precautions and measures that need to be taken before setting out on a project that could make or break both their wallets and reputations.

  • bionutz #3 10 years ago

    mmmm not, I was deceived by the title... well planning is one of the main keys in any program design (I'm a developer)... especially those with economic significance (management/administration/payroll).

  • Super Stu #4 10 years ago

    I'm a developer

    Not of games, I hope?

  • bionutz #5 10 years ago

    Nope... I wanted of course at one moment... but it wasn't worth the effort. Programming in business pays much better - stresswise at least.

  • otto #6 10 years ago

    Thought provoking article, I must say I agree with Tom here:

    for me it all boils down to one crucial component: the designer

    As with any creative venture, design by committee is pretty much doomed to failure from the start. How many good novels do you see with more than a single author? Also, list your top ten favourite films off the top of your head. Then go back and see how many of them are the 'brainchild' of a single person, usually the director. It may be a huge risk to entrust a massive budget to a single creative type, but if you keep second-guessing the 'artist' by sending in studio execs/publishing suits to fiddle with his concept then you're guaranteed to end up with something mediocre at best.

  • DocX #7 10 years ago

    Good article. I've had first hand experience with all the problems listed. There are now so many people involved in creating a game that you have to depend on everyone to do their job right. When someone doesn't, especially if its a lead or someone else with power over what happens, everything can easily go to pot. Design by committee - You have a designer who has to cater to the most uninformed ideas, often from people who never play games. Publisher interference can have a good or bad effect - sometimes it can save a game, other times it can screw it royally. I wouldn't say leaving developers alone was neccessarily a good idea though - otherwise you can end up with another Daikatana. Publishers need to step softly, but know immediately if & when their input is needed. The worst thing is when you have a publisher pulling one way & a licence holder pulling the other & the developer is stuck in the middle, trying to please both. You end up with a complete mess.

  • Errol #8 10 years ago

    It may be a huge risk to entrust a massive budget to a single creative type

    It certainly is; look at what happened to John Romero (and consequently EIDOS) for example.
    Edited by 1 at 24/06/02 @ 16:44

  • otto #9 10 years ago

    Errol - well yes exactly - I'm not surprised that publishers prefer to go the safe route, given the risks involved, god knows I'd probably meddle like nobody's business if I were the publisher. For every Miyamoto you're just as likely to get a Romero. Thing is, Romero had proven himself as a level designer but not as a lead designer, whereas Miyamoto (Spector, Sid Meier, etc) have earned themselves the right to do things on their own by matching their creativity with good management skills and business sense. I think it's a really similar process to film-making, architecture, other creative industries which are also profit-driven and competitive. The creative type (Spielberg, Richard Rogers, Tarantino, whoever) makes his name not only by producing a masterpiece but also by bringing it in on or under budget. The danger is when the hype creates expectations which exceed the artist's capabilities (I'm thinking Romero, Orson Welles, etc).

  • Killerbee #10 10 years ago

    Surely with so many rubbish games being released all the time, someone on each of these development teams must have realised that they're producing a turkey, irrespective of where the blame lies (poor design, flawed implementation, etc). So how come so many of these games actually make it all the way through to retail? Are publishers afraid to pull the plug on the basis that poor sales are better than no sales at all?

    Also, IMO some of the worst games tend to be the movie tie-ins, promoted entirely off the back of the film they are accompanying. The article's comments about executive interference and teams having to meet time deadlines instead of development objectives (ie the game must be ready for the film's release) pretty much explains why.

    I suppose at the end of the day, the one-man show designers work best because they have a lot of personal pride - and their reputation - riding on their games. In design / development by committee it's far too easy to point the finger of blame somewhere else, so why bother putting in any overtime?

  • Nick #11 10 years ago

    Never thought I'd hear John Romero and Orson Welles mentioned in the same sentence!

  • otto #12 10 years ago

    Never thought I'd hear John Romero and Orson Welles mentioned in the same sentence!

    lol! Expect John Romero in thirty years' time to be bloated and obese doing voiceovers for pantyliner adverts.

    Nah to be fair to poor old Orson he did some quality stuff before it all went pear-shaped. Literally.
    Edited by 1 at 24/06/02 @ 16:46

  • DocX #13 10 years ago

    "Are publishers afraid to pull the plug on the basis that poor sales are better than no sales at all?"

    Yes, that can often be the case.

  • skalmanxl #14 10 years ago

    It's a subject I've chatted about time and again with mates. Certainly, the PlayStation might have one of the largest gaming back-catalogues ever, but exactly how much of that is quality gaming? A bafflingly low percentage.

    Spot on, on the other side, if there had been no PSX. The market for consoles would NOT be what we see today.

  • Blerk #15 10 years ago

    someone on each of these development teams must have realised that they're producing a turkey, irrespective of where the blame lies

    Unfortunately I think the blame in many case lies directly with the publisher. They see a successful game and immediately commission a hastily-put-together 'clone' game, because they know it'll shift bucketloads on the back of the original. The reason so many games are rubbish these days is because they're not being invented by the people who play them - they're being designed by PR and Marketing suits who only think in 'units sold'.

  • skalmanxl #16 10 years ago

    some people actually like bad games.... Fifa anyone??

    Well, everything is relative, not everyone knows the options.

  • Tyronne #17 10 years ago

    thing is ..bad games can actually end up being funny ...that is as long as you dont actually buy them but borrow them of a mate or use the 10 day return policy and buy something else later at EB...

  • Thamuhacha #18 10 years ago

    "The key to this creative freedom is for producers and publishers to stop hassling the developer and let them get on with their work."

    Oh dear ... I am afraid that just won't work.

    You see the longer a game is in development the more it costs. And the less likely it is to look new and shiny. And therefore sell badly. And lose money.

    What the article sort of misses out on is that most of the greatest games are not the best selling ones. Publishers make money on the Harry Potter cack that is churned out yearly, not on the decent stuff that people on sites like this wait years to play.

    So Publishers will always have a say. Just like Tim Burton's Superman film biting the dust when we all know it would have been great. Sad but true.
    Edited by 1 at 24/06/02 @ 17:02

  • Nick #19 10 years ago

    It's true. Then again, everything Tim Burton does is great so I guess we haven't lost anything as long as they still let him make films.

  • Errol #20 10 years ago

    Then again, everything Tim Burton does is great

    Whats your definition of great ?

  • Jesus: Action Figure #21 10 years ago

    "Too many Chefs"

    I cannot agree enough.

  • Gestalt #22 10 years ago

    "everything Tim Burton does is great"

    I have four words for you - Planet Of The Apes. Ok, it was a decent check-your-brain-at-the-door summer blockbuster, but hardly a great movie by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly no comparison to stuff like Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood and Mars Attacks.
    Edited by 1 at 24/06/02 @ 18:28

  • Nick #23 10 years ago

    Sorry, I forgot about that one-- it did suck arse. And Sleepy Hollow was maybe a bit weaker than his usual fare too. Can we blame Holllywood for these then I wonder?

  • skalmanxl #24 10 years ago

    POTA was awful, horrible over the top acting all over the place. I'd rather watch the older movies.

  • st3ph3n #25 10 years ago

    Good article Mugwum, I'd love to see the big games websites write this without furiously wanking over some rent-a-quote EA press man who is giving them freebies for good things to be said.

    Anyway, just one thing to note - Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians - I believe you are supposed to say - Too many Chiefs and not enough native Americans.

  • Gestalt #26 10 years ago

    It is fairly similar to a movie, in that everyone has a say in a particular aspect of the production, but the director has to be ultimately responsible for the overall vision and the producers for the management of the project. Just as you wouldn't expect the costume designer to have a major impact on the overall direction of a movie, should a modeller or artist have a big say in the design of a game? I guess there's a balance to be found between letting everyone chip in with their own suggestions so they feel a part of the design process, and having a strong leader to solidify the design and make sure everyone sticks to it.

    Make sense?

  • otto #27 10 years ago

    having a strong leader to solidify the design and make sure everyone sticks to it.

    Make sense?

    Definitely. Someone strong enough not only to put the fear of God into all the artists and coders and all the other monkeys that go into making the damn thing, but also strong enough to scare away the suits from central office who want him to do this or that with his overall vision to make it more palatable 'to the market' (or if not scare them away, then at least ignore them).

  • Toby #28 10 years ago

    Nah to be fair to poor old Orson he did some quality stuff before it all went pear-shaped.

    The Transformers movie. Nuff said.

  • Polymath #29 10 years ago

    I agree with Gestalt.

    I would add one thing. From an administrative perspective, accountability/ responsibility is essential to getting a quality product that a publishing house wants.

    On the creative end, the commitment to the overarching vision is essential.

    To follow with the Movie analogy, the director is responsible and gives feedback to cameramen, editting teams, actors etc. The publishing houses give feedback to the director. The cameramen etc. tweak and add art to their respective parts, but the director keeps it cohesive. A good publishing house knows when the director isn't getting the job done.

    Good innovation requires fast failures. I wish publishers understood that better. Kill bad projects before they waste everyone's resources...

  • Gestalt #30 10 years ago

    I think that's got to be the next question - why do publishers put out this crap? :) Don't they realise they've got a bad game on their hands, or is there a point at which it makes more sense to shove it out the door and hope some poor sap buys it than to just cancel it outright and save the marketing spend?

  • Mr_Sleep #31 10 years ago

    I think that's got to be the next question - why do publishers put out this crap? :)

    I think it quite often comes down to the consumer, there are many people out there that just buy games because of their "big name" like Die Hard for instance. The publisher assumes he can make more from a lame and cheap title being bought by the occasional gamer, than paying out the extra for an exceptional title that is not guaranteed to sell more than the crappy title.

    Anything by Looking Glass proves that, they were given praise on a consistent basis but their sales were poor. An interesting and engaging game doesn't mean sales :(

  • Max Diablos #32 10 years ago

    Perhaps if we moved back to smaller teams with an array of people doing exactly as they were told, things would be a lot more entertaining and blame a lot more assignable if things were to go wrong.

    Presto!

  • [Alt][F4] #33 10 years ago

    Originality doesn't make it a hit; hell by the rule of thumb its just the opposite most of the time.


  • Tyronne #34 10 years ago

    I think the biggest problem of all is that when you look back at gaming (if ya have been around long enough) is that the men in grey have taken over.Theres no room for originality anymore as anything remotely original doesnt sell as well as something with some bozo`s name attached to it and we gotta try to make the most for our share holders.Theres no flair for the bizarre anymore where you could try some outlandish game for about 2-3 quid a pop if ya went for something by firebird or mastertronic,where as now you have to spend about 30 or 40 quid.When you look at the gaming scene you realise that more has been lost than has been gained as all the previews are for things we have either already played i.e sequels or the same game types i.e fps or rts`s...gaming truly has lost some of its shine and something needs to change or there is gonna be a huge tumble like there was way back in the 80`s...shame really but there ya are.

  • bionutz #35 10 years ago

    the "suits" are über alles!!! (thanks Wolfenstein for renewing my German baggage of words).
    It's just that games are simply as someone put it earlier as complex as movie making: you need actors, nice scenery and good scenarist (designers). Also it is very well known that no project should go over one year - people get bored after so much time... A game is a complex project nowadays, that's why it is a bit risky to make any game... unless you are good.

    The answer is not simple but the lack of innovation kills a lot of gamingwill from my side (and I think I'm not the only one) and games don't get tested as much as they used to... even on the technical side (stupid scripting bugs for instance). People create software too fast these days :(.

  • skalmanxl #36 10 years ago

    Where do games go wrong? when reviewers hype games and give them undeservedly high scores, thats where they start going wrong!

    Ah, someone obviously doesn't have a clue about games at all.

  • Super Stu #37 10 years ago

    But europe will still remain the little bitch that goes in the kitchen and makes Japan and U.S. sandwiches.


    Gestalt et al:

    Please ban this person for his contant racist (is that the correct term?) comments. As this is a public forum, these messages of his no doubt contravene his ISPs Acceptable Use Policy (as they would if posted to a Newsgroup, for example - I should know, I've banned enough accounts whilst working at BTinternet a year or so ago), so it would also be helpful for you to provide a timed IP address in order that I may complain formally.

    While we're at it, ban his IP block. It will be a shame to discriminate against those who might also be using his ISP, but his clearly trolling comments lower the tone of this otherwise excellent website.

    Thank you.
    Edited by 1 at 25/06/02 @ 09:56

  • otto #38 10 years ago

    I've been saying for ages that they need to start giving thought to an acceptable use policy. Sooner or later it's going to have to come up. Forum threads going to the dogs is one thing, but EG also need to cover their own backs... Oh well, no doubt they'll do the right thing ;)

  • skalmanxl #39 10 years ago

    To a certain extent I'm with you guys, but resentment takes effort, ignoring takes none.

  • Errol #40 10 years ago

    I agree, constant racism cannot be allowed to go unpunished.

    I suggest a 3 strike warning system. Or maybe even a zero-tolerance regime.

  • Gestalt #41 10 years ago

    "need to start giving thought to an acceptable use policy"

    Don't worry, we're already working on one. :)

  • Errol #42 10 years ago

    Try not to make it too harsh though. Its really racism and seriously offensive (and out of context) language that needs to be prevented.

    After all, we don't want too many freedoms taken away, do we ?

  • otto #43 10 years ago

    What he's trying to say is, don't ban him for talking about Isla Fisher.

  • Super Stu #44 10 years ago

    Well quite. I mean European Scum, if indeed that is his real name, is entitled to his opinions of World+dog, including the Xbox.

    However,

    But europe will still remain the little bitch that goes in the kitchen and makes Japan and U.S. sandwiches.


    this and other statements of his in a similar vein cross the line.

  • otto #45 10 years ago

    I think racist or other abusive language or comments are yellow card offences, possibly red card depending on context, ditto personal attacks. Persistent trolling should be yellow carded then red carded, if a member of this community who goes to the trouble of registering a nick and visiting the boards on a daily basis can't to anything more constructive than pick a fight every time he's here then I don't see why he should be made welcome. Sorry but I don't see why the majority should have to put up with it.

  • st3ph3n #46 10 years ago

    Otto:

    Hell Yes.

  • Max Diablos #47 10 years ago

    "need to start giving thought to an acceptable use policy"
    Don't worry, we're already working on one. :)

    Just as long as you don't make it one of those catch-all "lets protect the children" type of AUP's. I don't like seeing difficult subjects censored away because the politically correct don't like it. If something is true I'm not going to hold back just to protect someones feelings.

  • Super Stu #48 10 years ago

    Max: can we please just write one which results in that cheesy bell-end being banned?

    Thank you.

  • Errol #49 10 years ago

    Talking about Isla fisher is hardly racist or offensive. It may be annoying and off-topic; I admit that.

    People may have noted that I have toned down the number of comments about the antipodean babe. Largely due to the fact that Gestalt keeps on zapping them !

  • Errol #50 10 years ago

    I think racist or other abusive language or comments are yellow card offences, possibly red card depending on context, ditto personal attacks. Persistent trolling should be yellow carded then red carded, if a member of this community who goes to the trouble of registering a nick and visiting the boards on a daily basis can't to anything more constructive than pick a fight every time he's here then I don't see why he should be made welcome. Sorry but I don't see why the majority should have to put up with it.

    Otto for President !
    Otto for President !
    Otto for President !

  • Max Diablos #51 10 years ago

    Max: can we please just write one which results in that cheesy bell-end being banned? Thank you.

    How about writing a script that secretly removes his posts from the forum and creates replies only he can see that creates the illusion people are listening to him? This would effectively nuke him from the forum and keep him so distracted he'll never know it.

    ES: The European Union has a lower GDP than America.

    Random Name: Why is the GDP lower?

    ES: Because America is great and Europe sucks.

    Random Name: Why do you say America is great?

    ES: Because my numbers say so.

    Random Name: Do you talk to your numbers often?

    OK. So, this stuff isn't perfect yet...

  • Tyronne #52 10 years ago

    acceptable user policy...i`ll only last about 5 mins with that :)

  • bystander #53 10 years ago

    How about writing a script that secretly removes his posts from the forum and creates replies only he can see that creates the illusion people are listening to him? This would effectively nuke him from the forum and keep him so distracted he'll never know it.

    That script reminds me of a Scheme/LISP (horrible language) psychology doctor program.

  • Super Stu #54 10 years ago

    heh, why not get that n00b talking to ELIZA.

  • blackwood #55 10 years ago

    Read this:

    http://www.blackw ood.dk/postmortem/

    It's about a year old, but still contains interesting facts

  • Max Diablos #56 10 years ago

    heh, why not get that n00b talking to ELIZA.

    Yes, that's it!

  • Super Stu #57 10 years ago

    Screw it, get all those vying to beat the Turing Test to unleash their scripts upon him.

    Before he figures it out, we will have blown this place and be home in time for cornflakes.

  • otto #58 10 years ago

    blackwood - interesting!

  • Mr_Sleep #59 10 years ago

    (is that the correct term?)

    Perhaps it would be better termed xenephobia, or xenephobic?

    The problem with rules is that a large proportion will then go to the trouble of breaking them, not the longtime resonsible members, but n00bs like me ;)

  • Errol #60 10 years ago

    a large proportion will then go to the trouble of breaking them

    Thats why a 3 strike rule would be good; it gives 'noobs' a chance.

  • Tyronne #61 10 years ago

    That one site (blackwoods) should be seen by every single developer so that the same mistakes are not made again and again and again....some very positive points there and well worth a read.

  • binky #62 10 years ago

    WWWWAAAAAYYYYYYY OFFFF TOPIC QUESTION COMING UP (sorry)

    Does anybody own a GBA light/magnifier thing? or if not, do they know which ones to avoid? Ive just booked a holiday to CRETE (yay) and want to get a magnifier light thing for the plane journey.

    Any answers muchos appreciated.

  • otto #63 10 years ago

    binky:

    (a) the one place where you will *not* need a wormlight/magnifier thing is on a plane cos the passenger reading lights are the best GBA illumination device ever invented;

    (b) I hope you have more luck than I did on a recent flight with Virgin Express, the pilot came on the intercom and threatened to have me arrested on landing for using my GBA during a flight. All I'd done was ask why a GBA was banned when a fully-specced laptop was OK. :p

  • Nemesis #64 10 years ago

    One suspects you plugging the link cable directly into the Airbus CPU and playing Afterburner may of contributed slightly......

  • Blerk #65 10 years ago

    GBA Lights: Has anyone tried one of these? A couple of mags have said they're great, but you know how much magazines can be trusted. :-)

  • Nemesis #66 10 years ago

    I would say avoid the worm lights, they are just a nightmare IMO.

  • ssuellid #67 10 years ago

    Blerk - I have one that looks very similar - it may be the joytech one and its useless. I also got a worm light that is also useless, plus I have borrowed a couple of other GBA lights which were also useless.
    Edited by 1 at 25/06/02 @ 14:22

  • binky #68 10 years ago

    LOL, ok so no big fans of these light things then. :) must admit, im not a great fan of these things, as a) the screen is big enuff imo, and b) go outside in the sunshine and play it if u need xtra light.

    i cant believe they made u turn it off otto!! thats mad! u didnt have dynamite strapped to ur waiste or something silly like that as well did u ??

    I think i'll have a look in EB on the way home, but if u reckon reading light on plane is all i will need, then i probably wont bother. 54 levels into Mario world. absolutely quality game that :) Just borrowed STAR X from work as well. looks like a star fox clone. will let u know what its like.

  • Super Stu #69 10 years ago

    ...the pilot came on the intercom and threatened to have me arrested on landing for using my GBA during a flight

    I hope you wrote a stinking letter to Virgin demanding an appology.

  • Super Stu #70 10 years ago

    And I suppose we can use the unlimited supply of Gold at the end of the Rainbow can we... TUT!!!

    Well, you could start by not reading gaming websites of an afternoon and do some programming instead.

  • Shinji #71 10 years ago

    Prophetic :-

    Er, no, you're very much mistaken. There's no way in hell the editor or anyone else involved in writing a book (or even an article in a magazine!) has even 5% of the creative control wielded by the author. They're there to provide a grounding influence sometimes, yes, but ultimately the book is created by the author. That's why only the author is credited.

    Design by committee is rarely a good thing. Sometimes you get creative teams who work well together, and that's great; but in general, you do need to have one strong, guiding influence on the whole project. That's Mikami, Molyneux, Spector - someone who certainly takes input from others, but with whom, ultimately, the creative vision for the entire project lies.

  • binky #72 10 years ago

    prophetic.... that is a very pesamistic view.

    i am a firm believer in the philosphy that there is ALMOST no such thing as an original idea, but that takes it a bit far. agreed in the games industry there is a lot of input from different people, and like the movies, one person will always reap the plaudits and praise, but im sure elsewhere people do come up with there own pieces of work..

    u know what. im starting to sound hypercrtical here and im not sure where this is leading so im gonna butt out!! LOL.... back to those gameboy lights...

  • skalmanxl #73 10 years ago

    Design by committee is rarely a good thing.

    Agreed, you can't have a staff of people saying "this is cool, let's do that". If you vision your game properly as a designer, three years down the line you might end up adding "new cool features" shared during tea-time.

  • otto #74 10 years ago

    i cant believe they made u turn it off otto!! thats mad! u didnt have dynamite strapped to ur waiste or something silly like that as well did u ??

    oh yeah I forgot to mention that I was using the D-pad to take over the controls and fly the plane to Iraq...

    I think i'll have a look in EB on the way home, but if u reckon reading light on plane is all i will need, then i probably wont bother.

    Assuming your reading light works, then that's all you'll need, you have otto's guarantee ;)

    I hope you wrote a stinking letter to Virgin demanding an appology.

    I certainly did. Then I remembered that (a) I live in Belgium, (b) Virgin Express are based in Belgium, (c) the usual reaction around these parts to complaints is to send round the mafia to break your legs, (d) my office insists that I use cheap-arse Virgin Express to fly anywhere, (e) I didn't want Virgin Express customer records putting a big red star next to my name, so I tore it up without posting it... :(

  • Super Stu #75 10 years ago

    Otto - I'll have a good bitch at anyone, I'm not fussy. Send the letter to me and I'll send it to them pretending it was me on the flight.

    /nick SuperOtto

  • Killerbee #76 10 years ago

    NEVER an original idea

    It depends how deep you look at things. For example, a basic game might involve getting from A to B overcoming a number of obstacles in the process, using a combination of skill, judgment, luck and problem solving analysis.

    Now that could pretty much cover any number of games from Lemmings to Doom, but I think most people here would agree that Lemmings was a pretty original game when it first came out.

    If anyone has ever studied copyright law, you'll know that a great deal of importance is placed on the divide between idea and expression. You can't copyright an idea, but you do get copyright in your expression of the idea. This argument may start to sound as though style is more important than substance, but that's missing the point.

    The way to making a worthwhile game is to come up with something that feels different to things that have gone before, and then to evaluate it to see if it is actually fun. There's little point in regurgitating the same old tried and tested formulas over and over (e.g. a large number of first person shooters since Doom), but every now and then a special one comes along that offers just enough new thought to become a classic (Half-Life?).

    So yes, at the end of the day it is all about the designers - what can they offer us that is original, stimulating, interesting and most of all fun.

  • bleeptest #77 10 years ago

    The sequel to something original stimulating and fun seems to be on pre-order at play.com:

    http://play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=PS2&title=1037 21

  • Killerbee #78 10 years ago

    Thanks Bleeptest - GTA3 really does sum up what (I think) I was trying to say. It took the same basic idea as its forebears and made it into one of the most entertaining games on all current generation consoles, simply because there are so many quality ideas that complement the main game's objective.

    Having said that, I'm nowhere near finishing it, so I kind of wish they'd wait a while before bringing out the sequel! I just hope Vice City is as much of a breath of fresh air as GTA3 was in October last year.

  • Killerbee #79 10 years ago

    when did they come up with something new in the gaming scene

    Pikmin?
    Super Monkey Ball?
    Luigi's Mansion?

    Whether they work as good games or not, they're a fair bit more imaginitive than the endless sequels and FPSs and Rally sims we see from Western developers. There are always exceptions...

  • Gestalt #80 10 years ago

    skalmanxl - "three years down the line you might end up adding "new cool features" shared during tea-time"

    Bit like Black & White really. :)

  • Slacker #81 10 years ago

    Otto:

    I work almost opposite the Virgin Express main offices at the airport- want me to go over and start some shit? :-)

    I've never had hassle off Sabena/dat/SN Brussels Airline/or whatever thier name is this week about my GBA- just get told to turn it off repeatedly when we are coming in to land...

  • otto #82 10 years ago

    Slacker - I would love you to give them some grief about it!! I used to be the world's best complainer but since living in Belgium I've had to learn to grin and bear it, you never get anywhere by struggling, you just end up more in the shit. Let me know how they react!

    The episode was bizarre in the extreme. On the flight down to Madrid I was playing Advance Wars the whole way in full view of the cabin crew without a problem, they just told me to stow it for landing, so I never thought to ask them about it on the way back. When the stewardess saw me using the GBA though it's as if I'd threatened to blow a hole in the fuselage or something. I put the thing away but whinged mightily, so she said she'd go double check with the captain which was when he came on the intercom and threatened me. It's true the safety card says 'no handheld games' though obviously there's no reason for it, I can't imagine they emit any kind of EM interference above the level of a laptop. The greater irony was that I immediately pulled out my Psion to draft a 'disgusted of Kraainem' letter, the Psion of course having virtually identical internal architecture, power consumption, screen etc to the GBA. The *only* reason the GBA was picked on was because it's a dedicated games machine. If it's for 'business' then apparently it won't crash the plane.

    GAH

    worked myself up into a state again remembering all this - sorry to those who've heard it before

    edit - FeZZ, this wasn't during landing, it was halfway through the flight, and the guy sitting next to me was playing a game on his high specced laptop. It was a total joke and everyone around me was amazed at the way Virgin handled it.
    Edited by 1 at 25/06/02 @ 19:42

  • ssuellid #83 10 years ago

    "Ever since all the controls are handled thru the fly-by-wire computers, the last thing you want is elctro-magnetic interference buy some guy playing a silly game. "

    This is the argument the airlines use. You are on approach to an airport being blasted by various radar systems, ground crew radios, TV signals, planes own RF, mobile masts all of which are far more powerfull than someone with a laptop or GBA. Aircraft electronics are supposedly RF shielded - they have to pass strict tests.

    Modern airliners also use multiple flight computers which vote on what is the right course of action. This also helps against RF interference as they use different power supplies and sensors.

  • Gestalt #84 10 years ago

    Er .. yes, thanks, we actually posted a story about that a few hours ago. ;)

  • otto #85 10 years ago

    FeZZ, yeah, loads of LCD screens in cabins but I guess they're made to spec for airlines. In any case though a GBA is hardly going to pose a threat when a PDA doesn't.

    In belgium a gas station blew up because a cell-phone activated a remote controlled gas-pump.

    True story: I was filling up the other day when this taxi driver did a virtual handbrake turn into the petrol station, screeched to a halt behind me, all the while smoking a fag and talking on his mobile, jumped out, engine running, and started filling up his car (lit fag still in his mouth, still chatting on his GSM, engine still running). I got the hell out of there sharpish.

    edit - cheers Nicco, though Virgin Atlantic are under different management to Virgin Express (though part of my grievance was that Virgin Express were applying their own rule inconsistently). The guy everyone was getting cross about further up the thread had his post deleted, but there's also a whole history there which means that the level of hostility towards him is not so much because of that one post as because of his general behaviour over a period of months.
    Edited by 1 at 26/06/02 @ 10:10

  • skalmanxl #86 10 years ago

    while smoking a fag

    Wow, you people ain't nice to the sexually diverse people are you? (yes I'm taking the piss)

  • bionutz #87 10 years ago

    commercial planes fuselage are completely shielded against EM radiation, gamma-radiation and electric shocks ( lightening ).The inside on the other hand acts like the cage of faraday. Otto has a point about the laptops and pda's though.
     The only way to shield against gamma-radiation (until discovery of energy shields) is heavy metals (uranium, lead, etc. in thick layers). I strongly doubt a plane has that... there is no way normally to be shielded from gamma-radiation... which is anyway almost harmless. Just as a reminder, gamma-radiation is normal foton radiation but with very high energy compared to normal light.

  • binky #88 10 years ago

    im still confused.

    just looking on the website of the people i am flying with and it says this under Hazardous:

    hazardous articles & materials

    * Electronic devices (radios, personal stereos, electronic games and similar devices) - hand baggage only.
    Mobile phones may not be used onboard any aircraft.
    * Lighters and safety matches - hand baggage only.
    * Butane powered gas curlers - 1 gas curler per passenger may be carried in either hold or hand baggage, provided the safety cover supplied with it is firmly in place.
    * Butane powered travel irons – prohibited.
    * Chemical oxygen generators – prohibited.
    (However small gaseous oxygen/air cylinders required for medical use are permitted).
    * Christmas crackers - one box per passenger.
    * Party poppers – prohibited.
    * Animals, including birds and reptiles – prohibited

    Does this mean my GBA is NOT prohibited and i may have it in my hand luggage?

  • otto #89 10 years ago

    binky - it means you have to carry them in your hand luggage, if you put them in your suitcase it'll show up during security checks and they'll blow up your bags. They assume that any electronic device left ina suitcase is a Lockerbie-style bomb.

    My advice - take the GBA on board in your hand luggage, and once you've taken off, just ask the cabin crew nicely if you can use it. Then if they says no moan like hell.

  • binky #90 10 years ago

    :o)

    im using it. no doubt about it. is advance wars good? thinking of getting it, but im not really into that sort of game, C&C, Dune, that sort of thing. have i got the wrong end of the stick or is that exactly what its like ?

  • eviltobz #91 10 years ago

    Binky - advance wars is a great game, i've only played through the tutorial missions so far, but it rocks. there's been no resource management like c&c etc, you just start the levels with certain units and bases and have to work the strategy side of things.

  • otto #92 10 years ago

    binky, main difference to C&C, Dune etc is that it's turn-based which makes it far more cerebral, it's a lot of fun and devilishly hard at times. For a long flight though my GBA game of choice would be Golden Sun :)

  • eviltobz #93 10 years ago

    oh yeah, i forgot the turn based bit. oops :)

  • Slacker #94 10 years ago

    I fly fairy regularly between Belgium and England, and they always say dont use any electronic equiptment during take off and landing (and they list 'hand-held games', walkmans and laptops usually)- and then say if you want to use any thing during the flight to notify the cabin crew (not that anyone ever actually does, and they dont seem to mind that).

    Its probably down to the airline as to what thier policy on it all is, and the cabin crew as to whether or not they want to enforce it.

    Binky- on top of what otto said- you really wouldnt want to leave anything like your GBA in your luggage anyway unless its a VERY sturdy case- I dont trust the way they handle the luggage at all- it would probably end up thrown around and broken :-(

    And Advance Wars is class- its not really like C&C or Dune mainly because its turn based- its a different style of game entirely really. Its definately well worth getting. Its perfect for things bus rides ect.. too- since its turnbased you can play a few goes while you wait for the bus, stop, get on the bus, play a few more goes... those journeys just disappear :-)

    (edit: errr... as otto has just said ;-))
    Edited by 2 at 26/06/02 @ 13:21

  • otto #95 10 years ago

    Oh and AW *does* have resource management - kind of - you need to think about your number of bases, especially on missions where you have to produce extra units from factories etc. But it's emphatically *not* an RTS which in my book is a "good thing".

  • binky #96 10 years ago

    k. think i'll give it a whirl. but on ur head be it ;)

  • Super Stu #97 10 years ago

    Ooo, my field.

    True, but astronauts (and indeed satellites of all kinds) receive an expected dose (higher for satellites, as they tend not to whinge when they come out in a rash). I'd say the gold foil was more intended to keep out UV etc.

    If anyone is bored I'll dig out the facts and figures.
    Edited by 1 at 26/06/02 @ 15:37

  • Super Stu #98 10 years ago

    there is no way normally to be shielded from gamma-radiation... which is anyway almost harmless. Just as a reminder, gamma-radiation is normal foton radiation but with very high energy compared to normal light.

    LMAO

    Sorry, only just read that. Gamma radition is high energy (read very high) energy photons or electromagnetic waves of a particular wavelength/frequency (depending on if you're old skool or are into this quantum malarky).

    I can assure you, it is not mostly harmless. Here it is in big pictures: Ever been X-rayed? You'll notice that the operator always stands behind a huge lead shield. You may have also noticed that you're only allowed to have a certain number of X-rays in a year (and from personal experience I noted that the X-ray operator was unwillingly to unecessarily X-ray my groin area after a car crash as I was feeling no pain there). The reason? X-rays cause cancer (as the discoverer of Xrays found to his cost).

    Now then, here's the clever bit.. gamma rays have even more energy and are more destructive (albeit due to its small wavelength its possible a good chunk of it will pass straight through you).

    Summary - hit by a car or hit by a healthy dose of gamma rays: I'll take the car.

  • binky #99 10 years ago

    sheeesh, i only asked if i could get away with a plane's reading light to play my GBA and now we're onto gamma rays, cancer and getting hit by a car.

    i wish i never asked ;)

  • Super Stu #100 10 years ago

    That's nothing.

    The Matrox thread turned into Tits and Turds.

  • Nemesis #101 10 years ago

    ...and more worryingly it's still on topic!

  • otto #102 10 years ago

    (as the discoverer of Xrays found to his cost).

    er, "her cost" surely?

    Also, you forgot to mention what gamma rays did to Dr Bruce Banner.

  • Super Stu #103 10 years ago

    http://www.i ao.com/howthing/xrayshtm.htm

    X-rays were discovered by a bloke. Are you thinking of Marie Currie? She and her husband built on the results by the German scientist Wilhelm Rontgen who discovered Xrays. She was acredited with discovering radiation (the ionising form, I gather) from Polonium and Radium.

    I don't recall that any of these people turned into Hulk-like creatures :)

  • Blerk #104 10 years ago

    I don't recall that any of these people turned into Hulk-like creatures :)

    It was probably hushed up by the government. :-)

  • Super Stu #105 10 years ago

    Well, they turned her surname into a unit of measurement. I think they should have done the same for Dr Banner.

    I had 5 hulks of beer for breakfast!

  • Nemesis #106 10 years ago

    I don't recall that any of these people turned into Hulk-like creatures :)

    Now, call me sensible here, but if you kept turning into the hulk, wouldn't you AT LEAST wear something with a bit of give in it. Must cost that man a fortune in shirts/trousers and shoes. Then again, if everything grows right, then The Hulk is basically wearing Banners boxers and that explains why he's always screaming.

  • #107 10 years ago

    LOL, I never knew Europeans were a race... hmmm...

    Anyway, you're just a buncha whiny socialists whose bloated governments diffuse personal responsibility amongst it's citizens. 40% of the UK's aleady tiny GDP goes is government based, compared with the far more democratic Japan and U.S.'s 10% of GDP towards government. Europe is taking great strides towards stability at the cost of personal freedoms. Through all the buffers your governments have set up to prevent economic and political disasters, you've also placed a heavy cap on the rate of growth capabilities of your countries. Which is exactly why the United States continues to grow at a faster pace than every European country, even during a recession. It's also why I can't think of a single thing Europe can do better than Japan or U.S., except maybe igniting world wars and killing millions during mass genocides. You guys have got that down pat, don't you?

  • otto #108 10 years ago

    Are you thinking of Marie Currie?

    I was. Sorry. My bad. Note to self: never argue x-rays with an astrophysicist.

    Mind you, judging by look of some of the physics students at uni with me, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Dr Banner's results. :)

  • Blerk #109 10 years ago

    Oh scum, just shut up for fuck's sake. Nobody cares.

  • Super Stu #110 10 years ago

    LOL, I never knew Europeans were a race

    I couldn't think of the word. "Xenophobic comments", is what I meant to say.

    The rest of what you say is bollocks, as per usual. You'll note I never criticise Americans, beyond the odd dig which I might target at anything else as well (ie, the PS2 looks like a 2001 Monolith etc). You, on the other hand, criticise at will.

    Poor show.

  • Super Stu #111 10 years ago

    FeZZ.. I don't think they specifically are sheilded against gamma rays (beyond their basic thick metal framework). The atmosphere absorbs a large portion of the EM spectrum anyway, but I'll check to see the state of play with gamma rays.

  • ssuellid #112 10 years ago

    European scum you should really listen during you "Economics for idiots" course. Come on scrap the bullshit - you must surely still be at college to be as naive as your posts?

    If the US is doing so well, explain the governments intervention in the airlines, steel, amtrak, etc?

    "Europe is taking great strides towards stability at the cost of personal freedoms." says the idiot from the US where the percentage of the people in prision has more than doubled since 1985.


    "also why I can't think of a single thing Europe can do better than Japan or U.S" - produce people with a bit of intelligence? And aircraft flight control systems, the majority off HUDs in US aircraft.
    Edited by 2 at 26/06/02 @ 17:39

  • Super Stu #113 10 years ago

    Otto

    never argue x-rays with an astrophysicist.

    is that the same as:

    - Never start a land war in China

    and

    - Never get involved with a Scicilian when death is on the line?

  • Nemesis #114 10 years ago

    Inconceivable. Do you always start conversations this way?

  • otto #115 10 years ago

    lads - toidi eht erongi tsuj - fer cryin out loud

  • Super Stu #116 10 years ago

    Nem:

    Clearly I cannot answer you because I might demonstrate that I have no grasp of the subject at hand. But clearly I cannot not answer you as it might appear as though I am incapable of answering.

  • otto #117 10 years ago

    He was talking to someone else though wasn't he?

  • Killerbee #118 10 years ago

    "'Tis better to remain silent and have everyone think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

  • Gestalt #119 10 years ago

    "It's also why I can't think of a single thing Europe can do better than Japan or U.S., except maybe igniting world wars and killing millions during mass genocides. You guys have got that down pat, don't you?"

    Oh, I don't know, the US and Japan seem to have done quite well at that kind of thing in the past as well. :) Casting the first stone and all that.

  • ssuellid #120 10 years ago

    So as usual, ES you ignore the replies and come out with a new rant.

  • #121 10 years ago

    Indeed, ssuellid, indeed. Never really noticed, but I seem to do that a lot.

    I guess it has something to do with the entertainment behind the 40 sum odd posts in response to each one of mine, including on average a half a dozen posts by Otto telling everyone to ignore me. Most members here are a bunch of lemmings, falling off the cliff that i've created. Hehe.

  • Killerbee #122 10 years ago

    "Fly me to the Moon and let me play among the stars
    Let me see what spring is like on Jupiter and Mars"

    La La La

    I feel a bit better this morning!
    Edited by 1 at 27/06/02 @ 10:17

  • binky #123 10 years ago

    i Broke my own rule and read that one.

    Scum. ur almost becoming amusing ;) I especially liked this bit >>>

    As a general rule, everybody knows everything about the United States, but the United States doesn't know anything about anybody else

    I think u'll find thats ignorace as it goes. not even particularly with the people, but from countries teaching body.

    I have friends in america so im not at all racist towards the country, but its definately the ignorance that makes me smile.

  • #124 10 years ago

    So far we've got 1 emotional outburst (Killer Bee) and 1 that completely failed to get the point of my entire post (binky). Keep it up people!

  • Gestalt #125 10 years ago

    *coughs*
    Edited by 1 at 26/06/02 @ 19:00

  • #126 10 years ago

    Indeed Gestalt, i've been personally effected by this. I don't own WorldCom stock, but my other stocks are just getting pounded today by the lack of investor confidence. It is a very real problem that is going to cause a major shakedown in accounting fraud-- which will further reveal more scandals but hopefully eventually prevent this from happening again. The WorldCom incident is definitely NOT another Enron, but it isn't far from it. The stock market is in a bad situation, but not very threatening long-term. Wall-Street's performance may have been very bloated during the U.S.'s huge growth spurt during the 90's, but it's gross domestic product growth was very real.

    But this situation definitely sucks, no doubt about that. It's no secret American business-men are particularly evil in both it's legal and illegal ways of doing things. Microsoft for example. I'm not BSing on this either... I truly believe Microsoft will monopolize videogames because of two factors-- it's American, and it's enormous.

    A little frightful and a little relevant to the topic... I just got my new issue of Official Xbox Magazine. As with most magazines, there is a "rumor" section. Just about every rumor i've seen from past issues has proven factual and there's a very interesting one in there for this months edition... let me quote it.

    "Microsoft Press Conference. Xbox price drops to $199...of course, I already knew this (being the Mole, I know most things before they happen). Microsoft unveils Xbox Live and its aggressive pricing structure. What isn't announced but is discussed later in the men's room is the future direction of Xbox and Xbox Live. I could share what was said, but this time they really would come after me. All I will say is that Microsoft isn't playing for second place in the console market... at all. Stay tuned."

  • Gestalt #127 10 years ago

    Which doesn't really tell us anything except that OXM must've picked up some ex-IGN staff with their strange fascination with toilets. :)

  • #128 10 years ago

    Yeah, I guess it doesn't really say much huh. I'm extremely curious as to what exactly Microsoft has up their sleeve.

    I wonder if he's saying Xbox will end up beating out PS2, which seems highly unlikely. Whatever he was talking about probably is an Xbox 2 thing, since Microsoft will have it's loyal fanbase so it can implement all it's ambition it wanted to in the original.

    I think that if Sony doesn't quickly react with an Xbox-Live structured online environment for PS3 (which seems likely to be coming out a bit earlier now that Microsoft has become a very real threat), it could very well be the beginning of the end for Sony as a console producer. I've known forever that Nintendo is doomed as a console producer, but I'm not absolutely sure about Sony. It could perhaps end up being a Coke vs. Pepsi type thing, where two consoles co-exist and get stuck in a coldwar or sorts... or Microsoft could do what it always does and batter it's opponents with money until it dies.

    If you've got IGNinsider Gestalt, I recommend reading the newest roundtable. I know how much you dislike IGN, though, so it wouldn't suprise me if you didn't have IGNinsider.

  • ssuellid #129 10 years ago

    [Swordsman] - I have had no problems with OFP at all. Not a single bug, crash, etc.

    Super Stu - nice post. Now watch while ES either ignores it or comes out with another mostly unrelated rant.

    Also ES why do you insist that nintendo will drop out of the console market? They make enough money from GBA, Pokemon, etc and the GC is outselling the XBox.

    Edited by 1 at 26/06/02 @ 20:16

  • Gestalt #130 10 years ago

    /me gets out his wand of zappage +10

    Can't we all just get along? There's no room for personal abuse and name-calling on these forums. That counts for all of you.

  • #131 10 years ago

    "Can't we all just get along? There's no room for personal abuse and name-calling on these forums. That counts for all of you."

    Errr... it seems you've deleted at least one of my later posts on this topic. Which wouldn't be out of the ordinary except for the fact that they insulted absolutely nobody. No name calling, no personal insults. Not that it really matters, but y'd you delete it?

  • Super Stu #132 10 years ago

    Hmm

    ES: I hope our little chat, for as long as it was permitted to go on for, wasn't a complete waste.

    Gestalt

    Can't we all just get along? There's no room for personal abuse and name-calling on these forums. That counts for all of you

    And there was me spending 15mins or so of my time yesterday evening making sure I was being particularly polite about it all ;) Alright, perhaps these forums aren't the best place of 3000 word replies, but I think the message got across. It's a bit unfortunate that I didn't see the remainder of the replies. And you didn't even have to impose a AUP or ban an IP :)

  • otto #133 10 years ago

    /me gets out his wand of zappage +10

    Can't we all just get along? There's no room for personal abuse and name-calling on these forums. That counts for all of you.

    You seem to have missed a couple further up.

  • jaa #134 10 years ago

    <a href=http://xe ngamers.com/sections/columns/7723/">This</a&g t; would fit better in a thread about on-line gaming but I think it's an interesting view on the future of gaming and Microsoft's strategy.

  • Killerbee #135 10 years ago

    Do Microsoft really own a 22% stake in BT??? That explains a lot. Boy am I glad I'm on Ntl! (erm, well, actually...)

    Anyway, all that kind of assumes consumers are interested in on-line gaming. The article suggests 50 million consumers would sign up for it - I think that figure is a bit OTT. Microsoft can't even persuade 10% of that number to buy an XBox, let alone sign up for XBox Live.

  • Super Stu #136 10 years ago

    lol - I sincerely doubt it. A huge chunk like that would have been more publically known. Indeed, MS' foray into telecoms has been a bit mute of late, what with them selling their stake in Telewest etc.

  • ssuellid #137 10 years ago

    MS did a deal with NTL as well and I think that there were some NTL shares involved (5%?).

  • jaa #138 10 years ago

    The article suggests 50 million consumers would sign up for it

    That figure is for quite a few years from now. In a couple of years time, the guy who wrotes the article considers that 1 million subscribers would be a success for MS.

    I'm not really interested in on-line gaming but the point the article rises is: should the effort be made now, even losing tons of cash, just to be better positioned later on? Microsoft seems to think so, Sony seems to hesitate.