Radiant Silvergun Review

By Simon Parkin Published 16 September, 2011

Be Attitude For Gains.

Version tested: Xbox 360

The tragedy is that it became the punch line to a joke. Jokes, even. The one about Sega's failing video game hardware business, for example, and how the only truly exceptional title for its Saturn - a PlayStation-beating shoot-'em-up, no less! - was released two years after the console war was already lost. Oh, Sega, hapless Sega!

Or the one about the men prepared to pay astronomical prices for fashionable imports: a £100+ eBay price tag evidence not so much of the game's inherent quality as of the demented collector mentality, where scarcity + demand + competitiveness pushes prices beyond all reason. Look at those guys! You could buy 150 copies of Angry Birds for that money!

But the true joke is that Radiant Silvergun should have been punched by tragedy. Its pseudo-successor, vertical shoot-'em-up Ikaruga, may have enjoyed some vindication for its forebear's misfortunes, fast becoming a cult classic and making its way around the world. But the Japan-only Radiant Silvergun is the better game, bringing together all of the themes of boutique developer Treasure's oeuvre into one glorious, tightknit experience that invites long-term study.

It combines the colour-coded puzzling of Silhouette Mirage with the weapon mixology of Gunstar Heroes and the giant multi-part bosses of Alien Soldier in a way that transcends tribute, instead making a bold, singular statement of its own. It is mesmerising, fascinating and without question one of the only games of the 32-bit era that is still relevant today. And it's now available in a new version on Xbox Live Arcade.

Radiant Silvergun also defies neat categorisation. Aesthetically, it's an orthodox shoot-'em-up. But it evolves the genre in fascinating ways that, perhaps due to the dearth of companies still working in the area, have never been borrowed or stolen. First in its fulsome inventory of innovation is the fact that there are no weapon pick-ups in the game. Rather, full use of all seven primary weapons is pressed into your hands from the offset.

The palette of attacks is based on three 'primary' weapons: the Vulcan (a tight upward stream of fiery bullets), Homing (a splay of weaker green bubbles that zip to the closest enemy) and Spread (two brilliant white explosions that fire off at 45-degree angles, the most powerful of the three base attacks). Combine two of these attacks and you get a new one that mixes the properties of its components.

Strike all three at the same time and your ship swipes a tiny plasma sword out in front of it. This weapon has the capacity to absorb pink bullets and, when you've collected ten of these, can trigger a giant, scissor-like attack that swipes across the screen, rendering your ship momentarily invulnerable.

Each of the base weapons upgrade, not through floating pick-ups, but through usage, earning experience points with each takedown and 'levelling up' in turn. Focus solely on the Vulcan, for example, and it will hit harder and wider as the game progresses, leaving the two neglected attacks weak.

While seven weapons may seem like overkill, Treasure's skill is in making each one perfectly suited to a particular situation, and very often the mind game is in choosing the right tool for the right micro-scenario. What initially appears overwhelming soon becomes second nature, and Treasure's fine balancing of the weapons in the game outclasses any top-flight contemporary FPS you care to mention.

Next, every enemy in the game is color-coded red, blue or yellow. While it's possible to ignore this element of the game entirely, score attack players must master the order in which they take down enemies in order to bank the largest number of points. Shoot a red enemy followed by a blue enemy followed by a yellow one and you earn a significant points bonus. Alternatively, chain together enemies of the same colour and the point rewards scale indefinitely until the chain is broken, each set of three adding a multiplayer that can push your score into the stratosphere (levelling your weapons much more quickly as it does so).

As such, the best way to play is often in knowing which enemies to leave alone. It is perhaps the only shoot-'em-up where restraint is rewarded as much as offense and, when it all clicks into place, the sheer ingenuity of the level design - essentially a kind of puzzle - comes into dizzying focus.

The final innovation comes in the form of the boss battles that punctuate each of the game's five lengthy stages. These hulking spaceships come in all shapes, sizes and behaviours, from a giant monkey that swings and rolls its way around the screen, through a space eagle that flings bullets like feathers, to the jaw-dropping final boss, a running colossus around which your ship spins and dives (incidentally, the inspiration for the final boss in Tetsuya Mizuguchi's Rez).

The skill is in taking these foes apart section by section. While it's possible to aim for the heart for a fast completion, you earn far more points for defeating every component of an enemy, which in turn levels your weapons more quickly. Every aspect of the game's design works together in concert. It is a master class in game design.

These systems would mean little if the game they underpinned was lacklustre. Radiant Silvergun instead delivers one of the most memorable journeys not only in the genre, but across the medium, its pacing balancing set-piece fights with lulls in the action to take in the rich, vibrant 3D world that passes below your ship.

The port to Xbox 360 is a good one, Treasure including far more options for players to tinker with under the hood than exist in the dipswitch settings of the original ST-V arcade board, even. However, the game's rich control scheme works poorly with the Xbox controller.

In the arcade, just three buttons are used to control the game, with combinations of those buttons triggering the secondary weapons. For the port, Treasure has mapped each of the weapons to a different button on the Xbox pad, making it too easy to trip over yourself in play. As such, the option to completely reconfigure the pad is welcome.

Play with an arcade stick or a fight pad (itself based on the Sega Saturn controller) and Radiant Silvergun feels much more comfortable, although there will inevitably be some learning curve for newcomers.

Since Radian Silvergun was released before the days of widescreen televisions, Treasure has been forced to include screen guttering, where it places extra HUD information such as a move list and an instant readout of the current level of your weapons. These elements can all be switched off and the screen stretched and reconfigured. There are numerous filtering options to smooth out the polygons and eight different wallpapers to use for the borders.

One achievement rewards completion of the arcade mode in a single continue. A decade in, and I can't make it halfway through the second stage on one life.

The game is broken into two key modes: arcade and story (which has short in-game cut-scenes, for the first time subtitled for non-Japanese speakers). Each mode can be played freeplay (with unlimited continues) or as score attack (with no continues), with the latter option the only one that feeds into the online leaderboards. The result is an assured, comprehensive port, even allowing players to upload their replays for a mixture of showboating and instruction.

As with so much of Treasure's output, Radiant Silvergun stands alone. There is nothing else like it. Distinctiveness doesn't guarantee quality but, in this case, it's backed by radiant brilliance.

It's a game that inspires strategising, play after play encouraging you to tweak your game plan in order to squeeze more score from a certain section, all the while building muscle memory and skill. And if you want to play it as a straight shoot-'em-up, hammering through continues without bothering too much with the rabbit hole of strategy, the spectacle is quite like any other.

It may not have the visual class of its younger cousin Ikaruga, but there is no other 32-bit era game that shines like this today; a true classic that is available to the world at last. And the scoffers? Well, the joke is finally on them.

9 / 10

Read the Eurogamer.net scoring policy
Picture of Simon.

About Simon Parkin

Simon Parkin is an author and journalist on video games. A core contributor to Eurogamer since 2005, he is also a critic and columnist on games for The Guardian.

Read more articles from Simon by visiting the Simon Parkin archive page.

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Comments (111) Latest comment 8 months ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • carlitoswagon #1 8 months ago

    Better than Gears 3.

  • Mike1980 #2 8 months ago

    I tried the trial but didn't like it at all. Is this one of those "bad demo good game" deals.Incidentally I love Ikaruga, which I loved instantly.
    Edited by Mike1980 at 16/09/11 @ 10:40

  • Pinky_Floyd #3 8 months ago

    Psn release, anyone know anything?

  • Rack #4 8 months ago

    Well, that's rather oranges and apples but I know I'd prefer a legendary Shmup to a rather tired cover based shooter.

  • Blakester #5 8 months ago

    I'd love to play this, but in my opinion 1200 MS points is pricing it out of the market.

    800 would have been the sweet-spot.

  • Kaonazhie #6 8 months ago

    I liked Ikaruga and I enjoyed the trial of Radiant Silvergun - but the price is a bit steep for my tastes. I'll wait for it to come down to 800. There's so many other things coming out that I gotta hoard dem points.

    Also, every time I see anything related to this game, I find myself screaming RADIANTO SILVA-GUUUN for some reason. It just has a sweet title.

  • BuckEntropy #7 8 months ago

    "and how the only truly exceptional title for its Saturn"

    Unforgivable message for the opening paragraph of the review.

  • GamesConnoisseur #8 8 months ago

    X360 is the console for bullet hell shooter genre, suprised that the choice are plenty. Arcade stick should be standard for all of them, I found the pad a bit too unwieldy for Radiant Silvergun but can probably get used to it.

  • schnide #9 8 months ago

    "[Radiant Silvergun was] the only truly exceptional title for its Saturn.."

    Er, what? Burning Rangers? Panzer Dragoon Saga? All the 2D Capcom beat-'em-ups that the Playstation couldn't handle? Just to name a few?

  • anthonypappa #10 8 months ago

    i take offense to radiant silvergun being the 'only truly exception saturn game' - it was great, i imported it for my white saturn - but it wasn't the only one. the saturn was blessed with many amazing games.

    i remember the end boss, it was godly. it game was so epic it still had major slowdown even with the RAM cart. it did look amazing though. a definite peice of art.

  • disusedgenius #11 8 months ago

    "the only truly exceptional title for its Saturn"

    >:(

  • berelain #12 8 months ago

    Radiant Silvergun is definitely not the ONLY exceptional title for the Saturn, but nevermind. Its certainly up there, and its... amazing. I only saw the game once before its XBox Live release, and it simply blew me away back then.

    The demo isn't brilliant, but no demo would ever be enough for you to really get the brilliance of the game: that only comes through playing it over and over, learning how each element stitches together.

    Honestly, just buy it. 1200MSP is an absolute bargain.

  • anthonypappa #13 8 months ago

    burning rangers truly exceptional? nowhere near it. it was a bit naff and flawed.

    NiGHTS is closer to the mark. panzer, though - outstanding. even the on-rails panzer zwei was amazing.

  • schnide #14 8 months ago

    @anthonypappa

    From the first search result on 'exceptional':

    "1. Unusual; not typical.
    2. Unusually good; outstanding."

    Burning Rangers, despite being somewhat hampered by a console that couldn't handle the 3D as well as it should, satisfies those criteria for me. You're also right to mention NiGHTS too, but I think my initial list justified how wrong that opening line of the review still was.

  • uiruki #15 8 months ago

    The real joke is that it's arguably not even the best shooter on Saturn.

  • Subi #16 8 months ago

    @Blakester: As opposed to 11765+ points on eBay?

  • DDevil #17 8 months ago

    You're damn right it is a 9/10. Bullet hell heaven :-P

  • Khosrau #18 8 months ago

    Seems a nice game. Does anyone per chance know if this game is heading to Steam or PSN?

  • berelain #19 8 months ago

    @Khosrau - nope, XBLA exclusive, apparently.

  • anthonypappa #20 8 months ago

    i think the reviewer already realises his mistake.

    he should be hung drawn and quartered - a limb for each of the four corners at EG central as a reminder.
    Edited by anthonypappa at 16/09/11 @ 11:06

  • BuckEntropy #21 8 months ago

    @anthonypappa - I could argue that Burning Rangers was exceptional, but I could also agree it wasn't exactly good. Still a very unique game, it's too bad they didn't try a redux for DC, because to me it really just seemed like too much of a tech demo, and that compromised it's playability.

    Edit: @uiruki - I could also agree there, but RSG is just a very special game, even beyond any consideration of genre.
    Edited by BuckEntropy at 16/09/11 @ 11:11

  • chibber23 #22 8 months ago

    @berelain: So 6 months then :-P

  • sonicyoda #23 8 months ago

    Your insulting tone towards the Saturn will not be taken lightly! Have at thee!

  • Subquest #24 8 months ago

    Had this in my MAME list for years, along with countless others like Dodonpachi (which I prefer) and you know, it's ok, but for me the whole bullet hell genre is flawed by the shooting mechanic. Much prefer twin stick shooters such as Smash TV. Also, 1200 points for a years old ROM is surely taking the piss?

  • billy-beauts #25 8 months ago

    I'll have to wait some time before M$'s stupid exclusivity runs out.

  • berelain #26 8 months ago

    @Chibber23 - ;-)

    @Subquest - did you read the review? Treasure has actually done quite a bit of work adding in visual options. Its not a full HD rebuilt or anything like that, but they've made more effort than most.

  • MaoZedong #27 8 months ago

    Post deleted at 09:40:08 17-12-2011

  • anthonypappa #28 8 months ago

    published it on XBL?!

    does that even compute? (not saying it doesn't) but it's digital only... not like they are bearing the brunt of packaging etc. why would they give them an exclusive because they flung it on their network?!

  • tinyspark #29 8 months ago

    Was Tomb Raider considered truly exceptional at the time? Because if memory serves it came out on the Saturn first.

  • Subquest #30 8 months ago

    @berelain - yes I read the review and I maintain 1200 points for a tweaked emulation of one game is too much. It's a few yards over the impulse purchase line. Especially as the review suggests it doesn't work well with the 360 pad, and most people buying it won't have the arcade stick.

  • TruSmiles #31 8 months ago

    The Saturn was an amazing console with amazing games, some of my favourites even surpass the Dreamcast classics in my mind: NiGHTS, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Fighters Megamix, Shining Force 3, Burning Rangers, Dragon Force and Guardian Heroes, which I can't wait to play again, etc etc.

    Don't be dissin' the Saturn, yo!

  • riz23 #32 8 months ago

    I..have..Saturn..Nerd..Rage...Many..Games..'exceptional'..Temperature..Rising..Heart..Beating..Faster..

    GAME OVER YEAH!

  • sega #33 8 months ago

    I'm also here to shake my fist as the "only truly exceptional title for its Saturn" line.

    You just have to look at the games people are demanding for downloadable re-releases. Along with this and Guardian Heroes, people are begging for re-releases of Nights, Shining Force 3, Panzer Dragoon Saga along with the many arcade conversions (Sega Rally, Daytona, VF2 etc). I can't see people getting this excited for a re-release of, say, Driver or most popular PlayStation title from the time.

  • BSMR #34 8 months ago

    Are those game pad spaceships in the lead pic?
    Edited by BSMR at 16/09/11 @ 11:33

  • electrolite #35 8 months ago

    Tremendous fanboy-baiting opening to that review.

    Class game.

  • Climhazzard #36 8 months ago

    Getting this when I have the money. A classic that everyone should own and now have no excuse not to.

  • Dizzy #37 8 months ago

    I sold my original one for 250 euro, now I can get it again for 15 ;)

  • lucky_jim #38 8 months ago

    The Saturn had plenty of exceptional games. In fact, its quality:Dross ratio was for me far in excess of the PS1's (ok, the PS1 had loads more games in total, but there was an awful lot of crap on there).

  • S.F #39 8 months ago

    The Saturn was an awesome machine with MANY exceptional games.

  • Toothball #40 8 months ago

    I picked this up a few days back. I used to be able to get through the first level at least, but I'm struggling to get far beyond the second boss now.

    @Subi

    I can't help but chuckle at the comments claiming 1200 points is too much, given the difference between eBay prices and this.

    @anthonypappa

    Publishing digitally still probably involves fronting some amount of the development costs, as even though the game existed already the people porting it probably wanted to be paid at the time, rather than after release. There might also be publicity arrangements involved, although those seem to be a bit light for this particular game.

  • Badassbab #41 8 months ago

    Eurogamer loves score attack based games confirmed.

  • DarthMartious #42 8 months ago

    Eurogamer loves score attack based games confirmed.

    And rightly so, because score attack is the game mode of champions!

  • Lord_BeeJee #43 8 months ago

    I'd kill for this to be on steam! Arrrrrrr

  • bionic #44 8 months ago

    /still owns a white Jap Sega Saturn + some very impressive shoot'em ups,
    along with Outrun, Power Drift, Spartan X (which is part of the Irem Arcade Classics pack that includes 2 other games)

    EDIT:
    I also own:

    Parodius - Deluxe Pack feat. one of my fav shoot'em ups ever! :D
    Parodius - forever with me
    Parodius - Sexy
    Vampire Savior _ 4MB Cart.
    Shin Shinobi Den
    Street Fighter Zero
    Virtua Fighter 2
    Soul Hackers
    Deluxe Pack Plus - Salamanda, Life Force, Salamanda 2 - sadly theres no Nemesis :(

    ..all Jap discs :)
    Edited by bionic at 16/09/11 @ 17:48

  • Vroom #45 8 months ago

    Phew!

  • miiiguel #46 8 months ago

    Perfect run: http://www.archive.org/details/Ben_Shino...

  • Sonic_D #47 8 months ago

    Reads like a 10 ;)

    Looking forward to finally being able to play this game.

  • telboy007 #48 8 months ago

    Does this version of the game still have the hidden dogs? Even with the homing attack I could never find all of them... also does this have co-op? Did the review mention it and I missed it? Originally bought this for £65 on release from CEX, sold years later for £120. This game is so very special.
    Edited by telboy007 at 16/09/11 @ 13:08

  • Bander #49 8 months ago

    Subquest: "1200 points for a years old ROM is surely taking the piss?"

    The arcade game is missing a great deal compared to the Saturn game. Two of the bosses described in the review are absent from the arcade version IIRC. On ebay, the Saturn game is worth more than the ST-V board also.

    To anyone on the fence over buying this, Radiant Silvergun isn't a shooter that's over in 20 minutes like most. A playthrough will take over an hour, the difficulty settings make quite a lot of difference, and if this is like the Saturn game, the weapon experience levels accumulate over repeated plays. Maxing them out could take longer than most campaign modes of full price games. The weapon options and scoring system add to the variety as well.

    I haven't played the XBLA version yet, but it seems the one downside is that the game only got a partial HD overhaul, not a complete remodelling with pixel shaders etc.. If Treasure had done that, this would have been worth full price as a disk game, easily. If any game deserved a jump from 200 to 1000 achievement points, it's this. Even the soundtrack CD is worth more than double 1200 points...

  • Shadders #50 8 months ago

    I have the arcade PCB of this. Weirdly it's worth nowhere near what the Saturn version is.

  • Collymilad #51 8 months ago

    I wonder when the "it's 1200 Waaahh I'm going to cry to my mummy" shit will stop, if ever.

    The quality of XBLA titles has gone up, so the price goes up. It's not rocket science.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #52 8 months ago

    "The quality of XBLA titles has gone up, so the price goes up."

    That may be the funniest thing I've ever read on a videogames site. Well done.

  • Ryze #53 8 months ago

    "The game is broken" WHAT?!?!?!

    "...into two key modes..." Oh.

    :)

  • CHAZBIGPOTATO #54 8 months ago

    TruSmiles - The first defender of the Saturn to mention Gurdian Heroes!

    Plus one sir.

  • Kostas #55 8 months ago

    Saturns only exceptional game? Thats like saying that Einhaner (personaly prefer that over Radiant by a tiny margin) was PSones only exceptional game. Thats hardly true when the likes of Guardian heroes, Shinobi, Panzer dragoon series, Dragon Force etc etc are in there for you to play right?

  • Toothball #56 8 months ago

    @telboy007

    Dogs seem to be intact, as I found a couple of them during what little progress I've made. Got achievement for it too.

    @Bander

    Oh does it have the soundtrack in there too? I found the CD at a convention a while back, but that's a nice inclusion there too.

  • uiruki #57 8 months ago

    telboy: 65 quid? man, they really took you for a ride down south in those days. I paid 39 for mine at the now defunct Charlie's in Newcastle.

  • digitalash #58 8 months ago

    And what do these newly subtitled cutscenes entail? I know it's not exactly the point of the genre, but there's not a word about the story in the whole review. Every time we have one of those big blockbuster shooters like GoW or CoD we get about a page devoted to the story, even though everyone only gives a crap about the multiplayer.

  • SFKosmo #59 8 months ago

    The opening paragraph has got to be the most preposterous videogame-related claim I've read all year, if not ever. Especially when, like others have already said, one considers that RS is only a contender among many for the title of best shoot'em-up for the Saturn and not the undeniably-greatest-example-of-its-genre as the article seemingly takes for granted.

  • Bander #60 8 months ago

    Toothball, no idea, I haven't bought it yet. Maybe it has a soundtest in the options like the Saturn game, but the CD also had 'arranged' versions of the music. I wonder if those tracks got used in this release at all?

    There isn't much difference between them, especially with all the shooty noises over the top. But if this game uses the original music, a bit of trivia worth bearing in mind while playing is that they were being produced entirely by the Saturn's sound processor, and not streamed off CD. It's really bloody amazing chip music.

  • DolphC #61 8 months ago

    Like many others have said before, there were MANY great Saturn games, and ignoring the awesome Capcom 4MEG cart fighters, Panzer Dragoon trilogy, and even platformers like Clockwork Knight is just inexcusable. I have a 3 year old who is starting to play games and I'm glad I kept all my old systems and games so he can experience the joy of many older games (almost 900) instead of being force fed this years rendition of fucking COD or Madden.

    Simon- show some respect to legendary Japanese game design, get your head out of your ass, and eat a dick you fucking poser!

  • telboy007 #62 8 months ago

    @Toothball - thanks for letting me know

    @uiruki - la la la, not listening! ;)

  • Subquest #63 8 months ago

    @Bander - you won't get me agreeing with you I'm afraid. When 1200 buys you freshly minted games such as Shadow Complex, Trials HD, Bastion, From Dust, Limbo - releasing an old saturn ROM with a few filter options as opposed to a proper HD conversion IS taking the piss in my book. I also think that, despite it being a fine game, its historic scarcity and its awe inspiring title (surely one of the best game titles ever) have elevated a fine shmup into exalted status

    Even the soundtrack CD is worth more than double 1200 points...

    Worth it to WHO, exactly? Get real mate, you're talking about a legacy collectors item. In the digital era, music files are worth pence. Just because something was once rare and valuable, it doesn't mean that when its released in the digital domain today, where scarcity no longer exists, that it holds the same value as before.

  • DolphC #64 8 months ago

    @Subquest

    I will certainly agree that all the XBOX Live games you have listed were awesome to playthrough and well worth the money, how could you think $15 is too much for a great port of Radiant? While it may be the norm nowadays, everybody wants something for nothing, and I for one am glad that those who missed out get to experience what is an awesome game.

  • Bander #65 8 months ago

    Subquest, the CD was worth it to the person I sold mine to a few weeks ago.

    Anyway, this isn't just a ROM with filters. Sprites have been redrawn and polygons are rendered in HD. Full translation too, although if you've only played the arcade ROM, you wouldn't know just how much spoken dialogue this game has.

    It would have been nice if Treasure had gone a bit further, given that the first stories of this game's release go back to 2006. But as I said, I would have paid more than 1200 points for that, and as it is, I'd take it over the other games you mention, good as they indeed are, even though I still have the Saturn game (paid £30 for it :p).

  • Subquest #66 8 months ago

    how could you think $15 is too much for a great port of Radiant?

    Listen, I'll respectfully bow out now. My personal opinion is that classic shmups generally haven't aged well, and that a great many people will buy this game because of its exalted history, fire it up, and after about 10 minutes realise they're a bit bored. The games I listed are all modern classics, worthy of their pricetag. Alongside them, RSG is a stylish, but fundamentally aged game that belongs in the 90s, and given that they didn't exactly push the boat out in the conversion process, should have been priced at 800 points.

  • Silvergun-Blue #67 8 months ago

    Radiant Silvergun
    Metal Slug
    Panzer Dragoon Saga
    Nights into Dreams
    Vampire Saviour
    X-Men vs Streetfighter
    Streetfighter zero 3
    Shining Force 3 trilogy
    Shining the Holy ark
    Dragon Force
    Guardian Heroes

  • DolphC #68 8 months ago

    @Subquest

    I respect your opinion and really was just looking for your rationale behind why the price tag wasn't justified. While I will agree that many 90's games have not aged well, sometimes the reason i'll revisit "crappy" older games is out of nostalgia. It's also worth mentioning that while I really do enjoy many older games, I mostly spend my gaming time with newer stuff. It is just depressing that many of this newer generation shrugs off anything that isn't easily accessible or super pretty, hence why I'm excited to watch my son discover our wide collection of games, both old and new. Even if he chooses to prefer newer stuff, at the very least, he will have the knowledge and plythrough experience to know why he does.

  • Shadders #69 8 months ago

    @Silvergun_Blue

    You forgot:

    Fantasy Zone
    Deep Fear
    Virtua Cop series
    Virtua Figher series
    Fighters Megamix
    House of the Dead
    Baku Baku
    Burning Rangers
    Athlete Kings
    Winter Heat
    Die Hard Arcade (Which was bloody BRILLIANT)#
    Virtual On

    And that's just the exclusives! The Saturn was a chuffing brilliant console!

  • DolphC #70 8 months ago

    And that's just the exclusives! The Saturn was a chuffing brilliant console!

    Totally agree! Both the Saturn and Dreamcast were great. Really miss Sega's greatness these days.

  • carlosdfn #71 8 months ago

    "the only truly exceptional title for its Saturn"

    What the hell?!

    I just posted on a message board that Eurogamer is the best mainstream site out there, I'll go edit that post and be right back.

  • carlosdfn #72 8 months ago

    After taking a look at the comments I'm happy to see that a lot of people are pointing that out. There's no excuse for writing something like that. I'm not even going to post a huge list of games here, I just hope that the people responsible for this site realize what a travesty that sentence is. This will be the first time ever that I stop reading a review before I even finish the first paragraph.
    This is some IGN level BS and that's saying something!

  • beastmaster #73 8 months ago

    I paid £180 for the Saturn version.

    Worth. Every. Penny.

  • sega #74 8 months ago

    I think it's also worth pointing out that the Saturn got many of the titles the PlayStation was famous for such as Tomb Raider and Resident Evil (hell it even got both Wipeout games). Infact, as was pointed out earlier, Tomb Raider was a Saturn game first and it's unfair to label it as just a PlayStation classic when that is not the case.

    There's also the arcade titles - whilst Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 won't be amazing ports by today's standards, they were incredible back then. But, yeah, there's little point correcting the statement in the review - we all know it was an amazing machine with many, many great games. I just hope that comment was put there as bait for the comment section rather than just pure ignorance.

  • goz #75 8 months ago

    Hey team,

    So, this is my fault for not using quotation marks for clarity's sake, but the opening paragraph was paraphrasing the kind of people that would poke fun at Radiant Silvergun and its hardware - not offering my own opinion on the system and its selection of games. Don't make me eat a dick, Dolph. :(

    I don't believe RS is the only great game for a system that I have enjoyed for many years. I ploughed my way through Princess Crown. I still play Dragon Force. I have got my Sega Scouting badge!

    In the same way, I don't believe that collectors were morons for spending upwards of £100 on a copy of the game. I was one of those guys. I bought it twice, even.

    The conclusion to the review - saying the joke's on the scoffers - refers to the joke-makers in the opening two paragraphs. The tide of people who didn't pick up on how I was trying to frame the review shows that I didn't express that clearly enough. Apologies! I wasn't trying to upset you all.

    Please don't let this distract from talking about what we should all be talking about: Radiant Silvergun is on XBLA FFS. How amazing is that?

    - Simon Parkin
    Edited by goz at 16/09/11 @ 16:22

  • rusty_bin #76 8 months ago

    Glad to see I'm far from the only one who picked up on the comment about this being Saturn's only exceptional game! Will need to dig mine out and give it a whirl again, it's been too long.

  • IkariW #77 8 months ago

    Got this on Saturn, and just bought it on XBLA, some great moments in this game I'd totally forgotten about, its about time it got the recognition it deserves. :)
    In my humble opinion, Treasure are an amazing developer and this is one of their all time greats. The only other game on Saturn they have done that comes close is the awesome Guardian Heroes... and thats out soon too! happy days. :)

    The Saturn had so many great games though, Sega Rally, Dragon Force 1 & 2, Shinning Force 3 part 1 (2&3 Japanese only.) Shinning the Holy Ark, Guardian Heroes (As mentioned) Panzer Dragoon Saga, Death Tank (Although a freebie) One of the best versions of Bomberman and I forget how many amazing Capcom and SNK 2D beat'em ups, SF Alpha 2 is still one of my all time favourites!

    And so many great games other people have mentioned on here.... :) (Fighters MegaMix, Diehard Arcade! haha awesome!)
    Edited by IkariW at 16/09/11 @ 16:32

  • carlosdfn #78 8 months ago

    Thanks for clearing that up Mr Parkin. Good to know.

  • geeza2020 #79 8 months ago

    Does this mean that the Blue Sky Batallion will lay off now?

  • Ryze #80 8 months ago

    @Bander

    The Saturn has some fantastic audio hardware. It really does.

  • BuckEntropy #81 8 months ago

    @goz - You know I actually had to reread that paragraph several times, truly looking for a decent way to contextualize it. And while I didn't outright believe it was meant literally... it's the kind of "joke" only full-blooded fanboys / haters could ever make, and doesn't really deserve repeating - as such - for this purpose in the first place.

    But the ambiguity in the "message" itself is what felt unforgivable, for me. I (we) are of course over sensitive about Saturn and Dreamcast disparagement, but echoing the basest of cynicism should not be a flippant matter?

  • goz #82 8 months ago

    @Buck

    Fair point! I sometimes forget that readers aren't actually my friends and therefore don't automatically know that there is no way I would be flippantly disparaging about any system. There's gold in pretty much every hardware hill.

    Except, perhaps, Gimondo.

  • retr0gamer #83 8 months ago

    I've a saturn and let me tell you there's far more than one exceptional title on that machine. There's loads of fantastic games on it and unfortunately can only be experienced on that machine.

    You talk about the Saturn as if it's the CDi. Do some research before you make a comment like that.

    Also this game isn't a bullet hell shooter. It's much more traditional, closer to something like Axelay.
    Edited by retr0gamer at 16/09/11 @ 18:50

  • schoozzzmmii #84 8 months ago

    the jaw-dropping final boss, a running colossus around which your ship spins and dives (incidentally, the inspiration for the final boss in Tetsuya Mizuguchi's Rez

    This was the fourth boss, not the final (fifth) boss. Nitpicky maybe, but still, if you're gonna reference inspiration get it right! :)

  • Silvergun-Blue #85 8 months ago

    @Ryze

    Couldn't agree more. The Saturn has some of the greatest game music ever!

    And just to flaunt my e-peen even more I'd like to add that I own original copies of all the games I listed in my previous post.

    Anyone else remember when Sega Saturn magazine gave away the entire first disc of Panzer Dragoon Saga?
    (sigh) Good times....

  • MrVengeance #86 8 months ago

    Seriously, I cannot believe my eyes here this evening seeing people complaining that this, a HD-remake of one of the most critically acclaimed video games of all time, and a game that goes for over a hundred quid in its original console form, is being sold for 1200 MS points.

    Some people are just never happy. Or are tight misers.

  • Nukemasta #87 8 months ago

    9 out of 10??? eurogamer only give 8s and 4s dont they?

  • TAPNGO #88 8 months ago

    eurogamer is becoming a joke as far as reveiws go.

  • DolphC #89 8 months ago

    @Simon

    While in retrospect I may have overreacted so I take back the eat a dick comment. As one poster above brilliantly pointed out how some of us are overly sensitive to the Saturn/Dreamcast shrug offs, itis a sin that too many people are now running around dismissing them as failures, when at the time, they were truly great.

    While I may be in the minority, I believe great games transcend time, and while many "great" games have areas that needed to improve (camera control or other 90ish growing pains), not playing older games because of more primitive tech is crazy. I could never imagine a person today never having played Super Mario 3, or Super Metroid, or Castlevania:SOTN, or PANZER DRAGOON, etc. I also believe that certain older games have NEVER been surpassed even in over 15 years like Daytona USA. Tech has moved so far ahead, yet there has not been a single racer that had the masterful precision of drifting that felt just perfect (Daytona fans know exactly what I'm talking about). Still love modern day racers, but they are all benchmarked by Daytona.

    I wish that all who would now gain exposure to some of these lost classics they missed the first time through would be more motivated to dig deeper on their own to get these games instead of just waiting to easily purchase them on Live/PSN.

  • Obiwanshinobi #90 8 months ago

    It is perhaps the only shoot-'em-up where restraint is rewarded as much as offense

    I don't think so. It can be said about Psyvariar as well.

  • Pastici #91 8 months ago

    1200 does seem much when Ikaruga is 800 to be honest, most other shoot em ups are 800 too. Thats what people are judging it by.

  • dr_faulk #92 8 months ago

    Come ooooooooooon Guardian Heroes!

  • varsas #93 8 months ago

    Re: burning rangers: it is a very short game even with the randomised maps but it is great and one of very few games is focused on saving people rather than killing bad guys. The graphics really pushed the Saturn and I would love an update with perfectly modelled fire :)

  • bionic #94 8 months ago

    @sega

    I completed Resident Evil on my original UK Sega Saturn. The fact that Resident Evil 2 wasn't coming to Sega Saturn, prompted me to buy a Playstation. Then along cam Silent Hill. The rest was histroy as they say.
    Edited by bionic at 17/09/11 @ 08:17

  • bionic #95 8 months ago

    Sega Saturn "Radiant Silvergun" (Japanese Import)
    [link url=http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Saturn-Radiant-Silvergun-Japanese-Import-/270815281221?pt=UK_PC_Video_Games_Video_Games_JS&hash=item3f0dd94045
    ]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Saturn-Ra...[/link]

    Do I - don't I ?
    ..too much dosh ;D

    ..there's lots of copies on there, all over £120 :(
    Edited by bionic at 17/09/11 @ 08:21

  • TruSmiles #96 8 months ago

    @Simon You still play Dragon Force? :3

    Love to you!

    Dragon Force is definitely one of my favourite games of all time, it's up there with Skies of Arcadia and Panzer Dragoon Saga :D
    Edited by TruSmiles at 17/09/11 @ 09:03

  • Hodders #97 8 months ago

    Loving the Dragon Force love in this thread now, one of my favourite games ever :)

  • BuckEntropy #98 8 months ago

    Assuming I can even keep track of half of what all's in my mind, this post is likely to be a long, random and perhaps wholly inappropriate essay. But various thoughts have coalesced around this topic, and they just want out, so this really isn't directed at anyone or any particular point.

    As I've said enough times, I am biased. As an at least interested observer and eclectic participant in videogaming as a whole since close to it's beginnings, one might say I have a wealth of biases. The games that have held on to top honors for me range from the original Joust and Boulder Dash to last gen's Sky Odyssey and JetSetRadioFuture. And for whatever reason I've usually been out of alignment with any larger trends, which necessarily forges a certain perspective. It's been an educational microcosm, playing out the tendencies of history repeating itself, as well as the truism: "history is written by the winners".

    Be it Pong as the first videogame; Bill Gates as the genius who invented the first 'real' personal computer operating system; Nintendo single-handedly saving gaming itself from oblivion; or Sony making videogames "mainstream": legends will be found and fables written. But there's at least two sides to every story, and I guess I've come to fancy myself as a custodian of the other sides. Which is why I get triggered by things like this. I was there, noting in real time as the clear and general inferiority of the SEGA Saturn was being codified into law by the gaming press as a whole. I mean I even originally purchased a Playstation as a direct result of reading how utterly brilliant it's version of Tomb Raider was compared to the suddenly 'lacklustre' Saturn original... and I initially felt some agreement, until the first time Lara dove underwater and it felt more like we were in a disco than actually underwater, like the Saturn game pulled off amazingly.. And then the umm, infirm qualities of the visuals started to intrude more and more, significantly affecting immersion. I think that may have been the moment, instinctively, I fully resolved to always reserve my own ultimate judgment.

    Without getting into details, I also resolved to give up gaming shortly after that... but whatever purpose that may have served, soon enough the universe had it's own ideas, and when it came to a starting point for reentering the fold, the SEGA Saturn was my first and only choice. So it was both an economic and informed personal choice to ride that one pony for most of the generation. Never did I experience a moment of regret. Of course, it helped there was an awesome import outlet and gaming hangout a few miles from home... ;)

    And before I ever seriously inhabited the realm of these interwebs, at that venue I ran into more than enough disdain and dismissal of my own favorite little pony. To which I usually responded with a smile and shrug, I mean if they didn't care to know, what's it to me? If they're happy playing their games, and I'm happy playing my games, it's all good. And very very good it was, till that basic climate turned twice as ugly almost overnight, when the Dreamcast first showed it's beautiful facade, and seemingly everyone unable or unwilling to take responsibility for their own simple choice to wait for Sony's challenger, doubled down on their culture of insularity and alienation. There could no longer even be any veneer of legitimate preference, because presumption had now become indistinguishable from fact. 'Of course' this Dreamcast was just a diverting little toy compared to what's brewing over at Sony's skunkworks... you'll see, losers! HAAHAA *points finger*

    I have this particular scene etched in my memory, I think it was right after the dire announcement of DC's fate, playing Phantasy Star Online and happening on a lobby where... it was literally like this one single asshole holding court over a rapt crowd, proclaiming: "I'm just playing this until Final Fantasy X at the end of this year [YES FFX], it's going to be a 'real' MMO and is going to be ten times better than this game!". Now remember, this was maybe a half year after PS2 launched in the west, it had a couple impressive Namco games, Fantavision and... ? Mostly a mountain of hype and promises, and even Dreamcast ports that looked worse!

    But where did that attitude ultimately come from? Marketing hype is one thing, but journalism is presumed to offer some responsible filter on that hyperbole. In practice, commercial journalism must also pander to what it expects a majority already wants to hear. Which is an ultimately immaterial point, but it makes any expressed attitude of disdain for the 'fanboy phenomenon' by that journalism rather disgusting, because they are at least as responsible for the dynamic as anything else, indirectly or otherwise. And from my own perspective, that 'mainstreaming' of videogames - particularly with consoles - coincides with a fundamental turning point, when 'friendly' rivalries transitioned into totalitarian resentments and insularity. Maybe just that the exact same people "grew up", without actually outgrowing the same petty bullying of the playground.

    There's an obscure subtext in this thread even, without claiming any certainties (and certainly not singling any out) a sense of the rift between former SEGA platform fans is tangible. As one simplification, it seems like a Nipponophile matter perhaps more than anything else, and with Nintendo type-casting itself so vehemently the most reliable platform for a diversity of Japanese titles is hands down Sony's. As such it's a reasonable, legitimate, perfectly understandable attitude. But man, indulging in a little hubris here... I can honestly feel like that side of the divide got more of the SEGA fanboys that already sucked anyway. It's like getting conquered and raped by the raiders that killed your previous mate, but hey at least they aren't that other faction... that's a blessing right? (yes that's inflammatory but it's also a serious psychological illustration)

    Which is in no way a judgment on whether there's a 'right' choice to make, far from it. But I am making a judgment on people's willingness to pick up the very torch that razed your previous lovely home to the ground. That's ranging a little far from my core subject though (such as there may be one). It's just... almost everyone can agree it's all about the games right? But too often they don't hold faith with that, at all. And things get VERY murky and poisonous, when double standards are an accepted norm:

    Super Mario World is the game it is in part because it was created for the SNES; Sonic the Hedgehog is the game it is in part because it was created for the Mega Drive; Resident Evil is the the game it is in part because it was created for the Playstation; Zelda: OoT is the game it is in part because it was created for the N64; Tomb Raider (yes, make no mistake about this one) is the game it is in part because it was created for the Saturn; Phantasy Star Online is the game it is in part because ti was created for the Dreamcast; Metal Gear Solid 2 is the game it is in part because it was created for the PS2; Ninja Gaiden is the game it is in part because it was created for the XBOX; Resident Evil 4 is the game it is in part because it was created for the Gamecube; Bayonetta is the game it is in part because it was created for the 360; Uncharted 2 is the game it is in part because it was created for the PS3... ad nauseum...

    If you enjoyed any of these games, you owe a debt to the hardware that inspired them. Not that the strict principle holds for every game, but it's kinda the same difference. Any game on any platform is a testament to the worth and relevance of that platform, there is no separating the two. Yet people will do just that, but without integrity of any kind. Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Tomb Raider will seem to BELONG to Playstation, they are one and the same... even though none of them originated with it? But then another exclusive given to 360 (or whatever) by any third party is automatically undeserved and suspect... it's tantamount to theft!

    And this miasma (I know) circles around the fundamental reaction point for me here: the great tragedy, and irony, of this article is that such a brilliant, even radiant love letter to the game, seems to actually sacrifice the platform on the altar of game's aggrandizement: [/i]"Sega's otherwise lacklustre ST-V system"[/i]. I've seen this kind of thing too many times, across venues, like it's considered some kind of duty to qualify any article about a great Saturn (or DC, perhaps even PS2 in some cases) game with reminders of it's disadvantaged nature. But great games either are or they aren't, and Radiant Silvergun is a prime example, not of a game that somehow transcends the "lacklustre" nature of it's platform, but rather perfectly inhabits and is defined by exactly that platform's nature.

    The true tragedy that comes across is that, however unwittingly, this article effectively underwrites the version of history that "joke" is predicated upon, in it's very zeal to portray the game as supremely justifying the platform, without any reciprocal allowance. Which cuts too close to the defining cliche of the Saturn's reputation: "God that system was garbage! GREAT GAMES THOUGH!"

    Just you know... it was quite a big OUCH

    *sigh*

    PS: probably still not even half of what was in my mind... but even the nominal congruity was about to completely unravel.

    *shrug*

  • Subquest #99 8 months ago

    @buckentopy ..... errr, drugs are bad, m'kay?

  • BuckEntropy #100 8 months ago

    Games are a drug, don't even try to deny it. :)

  • Silvergun-Blue #101 8 months ago

    And the longest post on Eurogamer award goes too........ BuckEntropy!

    I actually "Plus one'd" your comment before reading it out of sheer respect!

    (edit)
    On reading your post you raise many interesting points. In the late 90's I was the same as you, I had my Saturn and wholeheartedly enjoyed the "uniqueness" that it offered (and still does) However as much as I love the Saturn, it's demise and the subsequent still-born state of the Dreamcast are sadly mostly Segas own fault.

    The Saturn hardware was notoriously difficult the code for (ironically much like the Playstation 3 today)

    Sega rushed the Saturns release to beat the playstation to store shelves.

    Sony's marketing was far superior, as you so correctly point out Playstation made gaming "mainstream"

    It was also difficult to reduce the cost of the Saturn hardware,meaning it got left behind by the price drops of its competitors.

    When sales had quite clearly stalled due to these reasons Sega made no secret that they considered the Saturn to be a failure and started work on the Dreamcast barely two years after the Saturns release. This further damaged sales and caused many developers to cancel current projects. It annoyed Japanese developers in particular as the Saturn was doing well over there.

    So basically by the time the Dreamcast released, Sega had managed to alienate both the users and publishers. Many publishers like EA simply refused to support the hardware. Sadly the Dreamcast was doomed from the start, no matter how many soul caliburs, phantasy star onlines or grossly over-budget Shenmues they released.

    (another edit)
    I also totally agree with what you say about the secular attitudes of today's gaming community.
    Edited by Silvergun-Blue at 17/09/11 @ 14:23

  • Malek86 #102 8 months ago

    My only complaint is how they chose the worst stage of the game for the trial version. 2C, really? It restricts you to an horribly cramped space, and the boss is just a matter of getting inside him and firing the homing laser. Wouldn't surprise me if a couple people were turned off by the trial.

    They could have chosen 2B (Golets is a fun dual boss, albeit maybe a bit hard), or maybe 3E, or why not, 2A plus 2B (the trial would feel less short that way).

  • BuckEntropy #103 8 months ago

    @Silvergun-Blue - QFT on basically all of that, and basically all of it known as well. But it's tertiary to what I'm concerned with there...

    Hmm, unless a few others just upped the post out of some kind of shock reaction, like you at first... I'm almost shocked myself that many apparently read it enough to like. lol And truth be told, caffeine and alcohol are in fact drugs, and both had a part to play. If it wasn't for the first I may never have started it, and if not for the second it's probably even less likely I would have continued with it. As stream of consciousness is the only form I could really attempt to communicate this in, it's my subjective take on a pattern too big to pin down in mere rationalizations.

    And I can't quite agree that Dreamcast was doomed from the start, in those strict terms. But that very illustration of the fait accompli is part of my own argument: DC was written off by almost everyone - publishers, press and popular opinion - before it was truly given it's half a chance. And for sure SEGA courted it's own doom. The company was a two headed monster for one thing, with SoA's (arguably circumstantial) marketing success going to it's head, and thinking it had a right to fight over the ceremonial drivers seat. But it is again ironic and tragic that DC was, in context, easily SEGA's best designed and executed console platform ever.

    There's a whole mess of connections getting triggered for me lately: like the Digital Foundry articles about ICO and SotC, reminding me that - in addition to standard 480p and (basic) anti-aliasing, Dreamcast games also generally ran a higher resolution than PS2. You can take that back a generation, to the handful of 640x480 games on Saturn; and while there were also a few interlaced / higher res PSX games, they all had to severely sacrifice texture / bitmap usage, while instead making great use of the ubiquitous lighting and shading. Or even further to 16-bit, where virtually all Mega-Drive games were about a 20% higher resolution than SNES. And it's all so freaking meaningless, these goalposts get rearranged according to made up marketing advantage, and the plebs obediently fall all over each other in their eagerness to tow 'their' company's line.

    And I feel like I've finally zeroed in on a core dysfunction that routinely attracts my contemporary contempt...

    Sony set up their own fanbase for this very peculiar anxiety. They were so successful in convincing everyone that the PS2 was going to be a near miracle of technology, and aligning their expectations for happiness with that criteria, that when the XBOX (and Gamecube) came along and convincingly outshined it on most metrics, their own loyalists were extra primed for envy and resentment. So even though they had more than enough reasons to be happy with the games, Sony's own devising directly undermined their capacity for contentment in the platform itself. Hence all the "Halo adapter" multi-console 'unbiased' clones early on, and this general phenomenon of the shit system / good games OR great system / no games rhetoric becoming such a triteness. Rather than resolving their own compulsions, and accepting that if they've been 'forced' to buy a system then it obviously must have individual and intrinsic merit, they have to build an edifice of duress around the act.

    Which has carried right over into all this "Gears of War should be on PS3 too! Fuck MS and their money hats!" attitude. Sony's very genius in indoctrinating people into a conviction that their platform is the only 'right' choice, and therefore the only one that deserves to BE and HAVE everything... has robbed many it's adopters of their chance at simply being happy with what it actually provides. And again the way the goalposts got moved this gen is, kind of surreal. What used to be up is now down, what used to be stupid is now essential... and it's so plain how invested some people have been in the idea that PS3 was going to restore the natural order of things. And be the one, true, best of all possible worlds.

    And for me it's almost always been plain as day, that no such thing could exist. So well apart from my own nominal grudges, it affects me just seeing so much energy wasted in defending viewpoints that are fated only to maintain perpetual discontent anyway. It's time to just... LET IT GO.

    Especially since it means so much less now than ever, and will probably mean nothing at all soon enough. It's very hard to imagine platform nuance having any relevance beyond this decade. Which makes me sad, because the unique personality of platforms has directly inspired so many unforgettable games. Shadow of the Colossus being another prime example, as a renaissance sculptor must ultimately find the statue that exists within the marble, Fumito Ueda and his team found the most amazing world that existed in the PS2. And any idea that limitations stifle creativity is an abject fallacy. The incalculable wealth of human musical vocabulary has all been born out of evolving limitations. Form itself is limitation, the absence of limits is true chaos.

    And... that can segue into at least one thing on-topic: Saturn was also perhaps the last greatest platform for chip-music. And Radiant Silvergun indeed has one of the greatest soundtracks ever. Not THE greatest, for me, because that honor happens to go to Panzer Dragoon Saga, and by an unassailable margin. ;)

    Ehh, well that became even more of a tangent than I even anticipated. Maybe the results of sobriety are evident... if there's any continuation of this rambling I think I'll have to fuel up again. But best not try to break my own record already, pushing it as it is. lol

  • crackerjack245 #104 8 months ago

    First off all lets get it straight. radiant silvergun is not the best " relevant game " from 32 bit generation. the person who wrote this article is an ignorant fool. you have to know your games to really make that statement. what about
    symmphony of the night , ...ff7,fftatcics , xenogears ,vagrant story , grandia, ..bushido blade ,tenchu,mgs etc... there is a plethora to mention and I havent even started with saturn games .
    When you talk about games from the past you have to look at the games mechanics and what it brought not only to the genre but how it influenced others in the process.
    when shooters are concerned yes it is one of the top 10 best shooters but not one and truly only best .
    Some fan boys here say psx couldn't do do certain graphics and it was inferior to saturn...what excuse for term bull.
    Saturn development was so protracted and the machine was so poor and difficult to develop for that it was abandoned altogether by developers.Yes few people could squeeze something out of this machine mainly AM2 sega division and team andromeda but rest is just poor.saturn was designed to do 2d games mainly that's it and yes few shooters that have come out on this console were amazingl but machine in itself was poorly designed.
    Few of lucky ones such myself e.g had both machines and I could play what few saturn games that were not available on psx but would I trade my psx for saturn if I was forced to choose? ... not a chance ....

    now with regards to shooters this is my lis of top 10 (no particular order):
    axelay
    radiant silvergun
    ikaruga
    r-type final
    gradius V
    thunde force series ...3,4,5- simply amazing .any can fit here
    parodius series ... any will do ..its just fun
    hyper duel- just love it ...
    einhander- I play it mostly now... if anything comes to perfection this is it ... shame square didnt follow it up.
    xexex -just amazing fun
    i know dodonpachi or harmful park or battle garegga are not here and other bullet hell shooters but this is my top 10 and I think these stand the test of time best in my opinion.

  • Silvergun-Blue #105 8 months ago

    @BuckEntropy

    It appears you and I share many viewpoints on the gaming industry and the attitudes of its fanbase, however it seems you are better at putting your thoughts to text.I've always felt like I enjoyed gaming "as a whole" and despite my happily declared fondness for the Sega Saturn I've never felt the need to declare an allegiance to a console or company

    I've maintained for a while now that one of the biggest problems facing the industry is the gaming community itself and it's attitude. Is this attitude a response to the press, or do the press simply "give us what we want" like a Murdoch tabloid. Maybe the users simply want their biases and prejudices legitimised by the gaming media? Being the cynic I am I'm thinking it's both, a vicious circle of some sort maybe but then that's just me and probably a discussion for another day.

    But on a happier note I'm glad you called out the Chip based music from the Saturn and in particular Panzer Dragoon Saga's soundtrack. I'm proud to declare I have a copy of the ost, It's stunning tribal score perfectly accompanies what I believe to be one of the best worlds ever created in a computer game. Modern games give us tremendous soundtracks that rival film compositions but I struggle to remember the last time I caught myself tapping my foot to the beat, or wishing for a sound test screen so I can listen to "that tune" again.


    Edited by Silvergun-Blue at 18/09/11 @ 22:50

  • telboy007 #106 8 months ago

    Yep, RSG is just as tricky as I remember it...

  • BuckEntropy #107 8 months ago

    @crackerjack245 - I want to thank you for being so obliging, providing an example of the stereotypical 'I have owned both these systems therefore I am FULLY qualified to bash on one of them' breed of "unbiased" internet forum denizens.

    And really going above and beyond, with a sterling example of the results of the very sort of emergent brainwashing I was already struggling to explain: You 'know' the Saturn was only good for 2D, and so you can appreciate those examples; And you 'know' the Saturn was "poor" otherwise right? Of course I'm rising to the bait here, since my own posts seem the only possible target for your "psx couldn't do certain graphics" reference (and with a nice "fan boy" allusion to boot, how precious).

    But why does the notion cause such a kneejerk reaction in you, do you really even know that? What is the rationale for a totalitarian rejection of the mere suggestion that one machine might have some discrete advantage over another? For I am now compelled to get totalitarian myself and tell you sir, that you are simply wrong.

    It's especially funny how you 'know' the Saturn was designed for 2D, without seeming to have the least understanding of the true ramifications of that fact. There has never been two more divergent pieces of rival hardware than the PSX and Saturn. Which provides a perfect object lesson for the fallacy of uninformed perception with regard to 'graphical prowess'. It's actually sort of uncanny how equivalent the end results could be between the two systems, given how different the process by which they arrived at them is. Saturn was the last - and almost certainly the most complex - 'sprite' based architecture ever mass produced, which defined some very rigid limitations, but also certain static advantages. A simple example of that would be transparencies: while Saturn was virtually incapable of the general purpose alpha-blending Playstation introduced to console architecture, for some rare games that exploited it's bitmap channels well (see the differences in the PSX version of Exhumed) there is effectively no performance cost for the blending itself - or technically it's sort of prepaid.

    Or the best example I've always used, unfortunately involves two very obscure games: Last Bronx on the Saturn and Tobal 2 on the PSX. Both are polygonal vs fighters, both are high-res / interlaced @60fps, and in both cases the other machine couldn't have a prayer of matching the characteristics of it's respective rival. In the case of Tobal 2 the pure geometry and shading is absolutely out of the Saturn's league for those parameters; but while PSX could approximate almost any detail or effect Saturn might throw out, it could do so only up to the practical limits of it's texture fillrate. So, as amazing as the Tekken games looked for instance, there's a reason you never saw much depth in the backgrounds. Compared to almost every Saturn fighter where there's at least basic parallax, or in the case of Last Bronx often multiple full screen perspective-adjusted bitmaps as well.

    It's a very indirect equivalent to the sort of bandwidth advantage both PS2 and 360 can claim over their respective rivals. Which incidentally also translates into a greater proficiency for 2D with those machines...

    But you know how 360 couldn't do Uncharted 2 right? (of course, everyone does) Well that's true.
    The thing is... it's no more true than how PS2 couldn't have done Jet Set Radio, Phantasy Star Online or Shenmue.
    Or how Playstation could never have done Fighting Vipers, Panzer Dragoon Zwei or yes, even Radiant Silvergun.

    And I already know, beyond any doubt, that your sphincter is clenching up at that affront... but it has nothing to do with POWER, it has everything to do with DIFFERENCES. In terms of headline console rivalries, you wont find any greater general rift in capability than between the PS2 and XBOX. Yet even there, games such as Katamari Damacy would probably be at least infeasible - exploiting so much raw geometry and simulation processing - and Zone of the Enders 2 just out of the question for XBOX, with so much alpha and particle activity at 60fps. This shit be real, aiight?

    And hey I know you were told some of these things by people you implicitly trusted, and so whatever anomalies you might have seen with your own eyes got reprocessed into alignment with that context... but most of those opinions were just as subjective and prejudiced as any other. It's fine if you have an opinion, but if that opinion amounts to something like: that building has three more stories than the one next to it, therefore I can proclaim with absolute certainty it has superior construction... then you're just a damn monkey.

    And now I apologize, I'm using you as a convenient foil for making my own points. But the biggest point being: knowledge is not the same as understanding, hence the axiom a little bit o knowledge is a dangerous thing. Whereas a little bit of understanding generally only leads to greater knowledge. Then again curiosity killed the cat... but people aren't freaking cats!

    And I'm gettin loopy now.

    @Silvergun-Blue - I also had other happier notes in mind as well, it's tough to switch tracks though. And thanks for the compliment, but it's not exactly easy either. That's part of why fighting is so hard to resist, the simple goal helps hold things in focus...

    I'm not an asshole, but I play one on this forum.

    I mean, it's not even that I prefer the conflict, but when the most genuine of opinions are consistently met with overbalanced and hypocritical antagonism, It's like: OK, if that's the way you wanna be I'm easy... I'll just feed you your own shit for a while and watch what happens, cuz THAT'S FUN TOO!

    But I wholeheartedly agree about the world of PD, I'm all about that world... and I'm wondering if you have any presence at the last little frontier of worship for that world? You would seem to fit right in, or could be I already know you by some other moniker... ?

    Anyway, to say something nice (and nominally on topic) again, Panzer Dragoon Saga and Radiant Silvergun really make for a phenomenal and fascinating combo. Two genre defining AND genre transcending titles, released after their platform had already been fitted for it's coffin, both immediately joining the most rare and sought after collector echelon... and both with one of the best soundtracks in gaming history! SEGA Saturn was really a shooting star, and as the saying goes... that which burns twice as bright...[/i]
    Edited by BuckEntropy at 19/09/11 @ 15:42

  • crackerjack245 #108 8 months ago

    reply to BuckEntropy

    First of all thank you very much for replying to my post. Seems like I have became some sort of "example of ignorance" for you which I find very funny as I didnt really slate any of Saturn games nor Have I expressed any sort of fanboyism for which you accuse me off.
    First off all I strongly objected to Radiant Silvergun being called only 32 bit relevant game .This is an ignorant and foolish statement and any jurno who writes for videogame magazine should never have even uttered it.
    Second I really love Saturn. I have what is it 3 machines now as 2 have died and still play many games on regular basis.
    But my statement about Saturn is correct.
    Saturn As I and you correctly stated was developed for 2D gaming unfortunately Sega was outmanoeuvred in its development and simply missed the mark about the future structure of gaming. When they seen PSX blueprints they got a shock f their lives and knew that their system was out of touch and backwards.That is the reason of the inclusion of second processor to the machine. It was not properly thought off and they had no choice .Hence the machine was so notoriously hard to developed for and abandoned by developers. and Hey is so difficult to emulate now!!
    Of course Sony marketing campaign was spot on as well plus the coup d'etat with regards to squaresoft simply blew away the competition.
    Im no some fanboy who who is in sony corner or this corner etc... The fact is their machine wa spot and sega's not.
    Statements with regards to particles ,graphics etc I agree with you.Tobal and its Goraud shading etc but ultimately machines are not rated by it so there is no reason into going to those details as to prove your point. They are correct but nothing to do with explaining saturn vs psx point. Sega simply missed the mark completely with architecture of the machine.
    I enjoy Both Machines but I still stand by my statement with regards if I had choice I would choose PSX.
    More quality games.
    Now with regards to games like panzer dragoon and their soundtracks etc and their rarity.
    when you release a great game in limited quantity of course it will reach cult status and it will be sought after.its mathematics.
    Also through the years Saturn owners and Saturn ownership and its rare games has became sort of status symbol and if you have one and own its plethora of rare games makes you one who knows more about videogames than anyone else .
    And psx bashing is popular as well so I dont begrudge yu for sticking out for Sega.
    I love Sega man . I went to Japan Last year and went around to see those urban settlements which I remember from Shenmue.I fell in love with them in that game and my girlfriend is japanese cause of that as well.
    So here you are.
    But ultimately Saturn was a flawed machine and simply missed the mark hence its failed.

  • BuckEntropy #109 8 months ago

    @crackerjack245 - "Some fan boys here say psx couldn't do do certain graphics and it was inferior to saturn...what excuse for term bull. "

    Umm, I've never been the one making the accusations of fanboyism? But on that subject perhaps you would clarify, who's posts were you referring to there? Because while mine seemed the only likely target, I've also never said anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a declaration that "PSX was inferior to the Saturn".

    Indeed the Playstation was virtually the ideal product for it's moment in time; right when consumer level dedicated 3D imaging hardware was barely entering the market, mostly from smaller start-ups. Sony was in a perfect position to deliver a very powerful mass market architecture at an unbeatable value. Not only did it do exactly what it was billed for, it did it with reliable ease. It was also perfect timing for tapping into the general energy of the moment, with I think lots of code-monkeys happy for an alternative to PC to play with, and seemed to attract a lot of the, somewhat adrift, European devs / demoscene talent. Which was a great thing itself, and surely translated into a lot of the extra regard Sony still has *this* side of the pond.

    PSX: Easy to develop for, easy to get results from. (remind you of any more recent case?) So there's almost nothing but good, deserving reason's for it's success. As there are lots of understandable, deserving reasons for both Saturn and N64's relative lack of success. And.. what does any of that actually have to do with my couple mentions about one system's technical strengths?

    How and why will reading something like 'Saturn had it's own advantages' get translated into something closer to 'PSX was clearly weaker than Saturn' in your head? Now don't get me wrong here, I know you've probably heard it just that way from a few of the real fanboy types for years right? But Playstation crushed and conquered everything anyway, so FFS why do YOU feel such a need to champion IT'S absolute superiority? A few minority suggestions that Saturn had something of it's own, don't take anything away from everything that the Playstation had and was! So almost the only rational reason YOU might be getting defensive about it, is out of some form of fear of the truth.

    And this is truly intriguing me, because it digs even deeper into the dynamic I'm already trying to get a fix on. It's likely that those who were the most aligned to SEGA from the 16-bit days, also felt the most disappointed and betrayed by the Saturn. I mean, I wasn't an early adopter, but I can only imagine feeling a kid's certainty that they NEED to have a Saturn... and probably being wowed enough and able to convince themselves it's the most awesome thing when they got it... until they saw Wipeout running on Playtation a few months later. And in a more subtle way the same with N64, since it's games didn't tend to look near as flashy as Sony's. And PSX started getting so much right away, within a year it was already THE machine to own.

    And in hindsight I think there was a lot of that sort of divided allegiance all along. A mix of genuine disappointments and oddly guilty regrets, even backed up by a pressure that you couldn't even admit that you liked either of them in public... not if you wanted to maintain your social standing at least. And I'm really thinking that's behind a lot of it, again with the Dreamcast, there was always this sense of: hey yeah this really is awesome... but only FOR NOW, because I'm not gonna get fooled again NO WAY! And thus, yet another layer of reinforcement for denial when they in fact did get fooled again. Almost like a double-cross even, very hard to untangle that kind of emotional knot. And hell in the west at least it was SEGA that seriously kicked off the arms-race mentality - in the US it was "Genesis does what Nintendon't", kind of another reason to regard SoA as the Bad Head lol - so they were also reaping some of what they had sown.

    Just as Sony is now, so we're right back to history repetition. Only now even smaller discrepancies in our machine gods' proven potency are being treated even more like life and death issues...

    I dunno, I'm also a cynic by habit and experience. And while my own participation in this nonsense has probably degraded to about equal parts venting and sport, more often than not anyway... I know it also gets to me because of how directly it can reflect what's completely fucked about all politics in the world right now. Much of it is a necessary evil, the herding instinct isn't going to become vestigial anytime soon. But these are NOT essential issues, this realm is explicitly one of personal preferences and liberties. The games another person chooses to play and on what piece of hardware they're doing it cannot directly detract from any of one's own choices and entertainment. And if we can't even avoid the impulse to detract from what someone else has, even when we can gain nothing by it... how much hope is there for true humanity in matters that are truly life and death?

    And all the more ironic, when this is the most international cultural medium property in history. Even something like Rock 'n Roll, as universal as it's revolution became, was an export of a particular culture's gestating experience. Whereas videogames never had any true point of origin, though if you even try to get technical, their conception happened in the same air as the hippie movement... peace and love and brothers and sisters of the world!

    So come on people! And come off it! Don't let ANYONE harsh your groove again, none of them are worth it... yet any of them are worth something, if it works for YOU.
    Edited by BuckEntropy at 20/09/11 @ 06:59

  • sugarbaron #110 8 months ago

    Never read so much horse shit as whats in the 1st paragraph. The Saturn had many exceptional titles in its day, Guardian Heroes, Tomb Raider (a Saturn exlusive before the PS version), Sega Rally, VF2, Nights, Virtua Cop, and thats just some of the western releases.

  • CHAZBIGPOTATO #111 8 months ago

    @Goz / Simon.

    Now I've seen your profile picture I can stop picturing this bloke writing the reviews

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/imageArchiv...