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Saviour Machine Interview

Interview by Alexander Gambotto-Burke

13 July, 2009

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SHODAN may have been scary, but she's got nothing on Lucy. The fun-size pocket robot orangutan may now be consigned to Cyberlife Research vault, but the artificial intelligence comprising her virtual brain - which her creators hoped would see her through real-life kindergarten - is of a level of sophistication that makes Looking Glass' amalgam of clever scripting, voice-acting, and cut-scenes look utterly prehistoric. And while she certainly wasn't blessed with SHODAN's looks, either - in all honesty, she looks like a cross between Estelle Getty and Chucky the Lakeshore Strangler - there's little doubt Lucy's probably the better dinner party guest.

This is the case for most, if not all, of the videogames industry's flaccid attempts at AI. Whilst gaming is constantly reaching new graphical frontiers, AI remains a criminally neglected facet of development - despite its importance and potential ability to revolutionise games design. "The majority of what's called 'AI' by games programmers is just logic," Steve Grand, Lucy's chief architect, says, "or simple rules for behaviour. It bears little relationship to the kinds of AI being developed in research labs. And the rest is what's lovingly called 'Good Old-Fashioned AI' by those of us who despise it. If something is acting according to explicit rules then it isn't intelligent. Intelligence is when you make up your own rules, infer them from experience, or choose to break them."

Grand, as you will probably know if you've at least two decades under your belt (hey, remember Milli Vanilli?) is the computer scientist responsible for Creatures, the AI-driven life simulator (and surprise hit) released in its first iteration in 1996. Creatures tasks the player with teaching and guiding little creatures (known as Norns) to maturity and independence. Norns weren't mere Lemmings - they were coded from the genetic level upwards and featured the first example of proper neural network brains in what you could loosely call a videogame. (Grand avoids the term entirely, preferring "simulation".)

Creatures was, in many ways, a revolution. Which is perhaps why you might be able to understand why Grand is so chagrined when it's compared to other simulation-style videogames. "They are trying to mimic the sorts of simulations I do," he explains. "I'm not really interested in computer games - I'm a scientist and I'm interested in what intelligence, life and minds really are. If you just write a simulation that looks on the outside like it's alive, that doesn't actually make it alive or tell you very much about the nature of life. And from a practical perspective it doesn't deliver the goods either - it only ever works up to a point.

"There are two kinds or orders of simulation. If you write equations that behave like an economy, then it's a first-order simulation of an economy and it merely mimics a real economy. If you write equations that behave like little people who can trade with each other, you have only mimicked those people. But if the pretend people then start to trade and the end result behaves like an economy, then this is a second-order simulation and there is an important sense in which the result really is an economy. It's also more likely to reflect reality than the simpler model, because you often get a lot of features for free."

'Saviour Machine' Screenshot 1

To date, though, most developers opt for the easier option; beyond cost considerations, the general consensus seems to be that players only really want to be entertained, and won't bother prodding the simulation to breaking point if it requires too much thought. "And as a result," Grand continues, "games have reinforced the idea that intelligence is directly related to logic and that human behaviour is comparatively easily reduced to simple IF/THEN constructs. And people are easily fooled, up to a point. If you make something that looks spectacularly like a duck, using the best pixel shaders for feathers and translucency, and then you program it to quack every now and then, it's surprisingly easy for people to assume you've made a duck. I would prefer people to understand just how complex, astounding and sublime natural intelligence really is, and game AI tends to give the wrong impression."

In many cases, that's not such a big deal - after all, the complexity and beauty of a duck's natural intelligence is a suborder consideration when you're gunning over its spine in Gran Turismo. But Spore brought the issues of AI and life simulation back to the fore. Spore, after all, was fun, but it was a somewhat Fisher Price version of life simulation, and disappointed critics and gamers who felt the pre-release hype was hinting at a more complex game.

Interestingly, Grand was developing Simbiosis at roughly the same time. It was broadly similar to Spore in thrust, but his project looked a lot more like what the disenfranchised aforementioned had envisioned than Maxis' game. "I met Will Wright just before I started Creatures," Grand recalls, "and so I knew he thought in a very similar way to me, and liked creating emergent simulations. So, all the time, while I was developing Simbiosis by myself, I was terrified of what Will was going to achieve with dozens of programmers and artists. But in the end it seems like Spore is more of a mimic of life than an implementation of it."

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Bearintraining
13/07/09 @ 10:49
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Creatures was cool, but quite boring as a game... it was more a screensaver or so. If I can remember correctly, there was a 2 which expanded things a bit, no?
SHNUFF
13/07/09 @ 10:51
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very interesting article. from time to time someone has to speak up and tell the world they havent advanced a single line of code in the last 15 years. go grand! i loved everything you did and will support you ever more.
until hes ready with his new project have a look at weka
Xerx3s
13/07/09 @ 10:56
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"Just don't tell SHODAN - you know how she gets when pathetic creatures of meat and bone get the better of her."

We still aren't on speaking terms. ¬_¬
secombe
13/07/09 @ 11:39
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Interesting, for all the graphical advances, it does amaze me how little has been done with regards to AI in the average video game, especially given the power now available. Gran Turismo is a good example, for all the hype this game generates, they basically just rebuild a prettier version of the game each time, the AI is still as appallingly bad as it was on day one.

I guess gamers at large are responsible for this, "we" demand graphical updates, they are an obvious advancement, even at an early stage when screenshots and video is released. AI? Not so obvious until you've actually played it.

Although it's not AI based, it brings to mind the EA demo of Grand Slam Tennis, where many, many people here cried foul that it was faked...funny that they aren't claiming that now, and a competent gamer is able to do exactly what was shown in the preview. Like AI, responsive motion controls aren't immediately obvious to the average gaming fan looking at previews etc.

Kiigan
13/07/09 @ 12:19
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I don't understand why this article seems to suggest that game developers should be researching AI. Fundamentally, "AI" is a very different field to what is sometimes termed "videogame AI" , with very different goals. For any company who wants to create entertainment, there isn't always a lot of overlap between the two areas.

Of course there HAVE been plenty of advances in "videogame AI" over the years, but when it is done well you won't really notice, because that's the point of it. You'll just enjoy the game.

In my opinion, to date there have been very few examples of "proper AI" actually yielding fun results in a game. If someone wants to piss about with learning systems and neural networks that's great, but such effort isn't always aligned (or even vaguely compatible) with creating a game that is entertaining and fun to play. In truth, often the crudest smoke-n-mirrors / finite state machine approach to "videogame AI" can produce the most fun results. There are always exceptions of course, but until such AI research is proven to yield entertaining game experiences, there's little to compel game devs to piss away money on it.
kangarootoo
13/07/09 @ 12:23
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"I don't understand why this article seems to suggest that game developers should be researching AI. Fundamentally, "AI" is a very different field to what is sometimes termed "videogame AI" , with very different goals. For any company who wants to create entertainment, there isn't always a lot of overlap between the two areas."

Very well put.

"Realistic AI" is one of my two highest rated "stuff gamers say they want, when they don't really" (the other being open ended experiences). Entertaining AI is really what people want, and like you say, that orften has little to do with realism and if they are getting it they probably won't notice.
Doctor_What
13/07/09 @ 12:23
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I remember Creatures. It made my girlfriend of the time cry when the damn things kept on playing with the monsters that made them sick, then her favourite norns died. I can't say they're particularly happy memories, but it certainly put emotion into games.

Games usually rely on a performance of AI, not actual AI. If I were to play against a genuinely intelligent computer then all of my enemies would group together and rush at me, or never stand next to those conveniently explosive red barrels. Yes, it would be intelligent, but it wouldn't be any fun.
wittynic
13/07/09 @ 13:47
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i admire his work but Grand comes across as a bit of a dick.
kangarootoo
13/07/09 @ 14:05
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Just read this through in more detail, and there does seem to be sense that Grand is dismissing a lot of current game AI, not because its bad for the game but because it is "not real AI". So what, would be my big fat reply.

I wouldn't call him a dick, but I do think he has lost sight of the woods.
sneetch
13/07/09 @ 14:48
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@kangarootoo
Just read this through in more detail, and there does seem to be sense that Grand is dismissing a lot of current game AI, not because its bad for the game but because it is "not real AI". So what, would be my big fat reply.

I wouldn't call him a dick, but I do think he has lost sight of the woods.


Indeed, real AI would not be fun in games. It'll be like going up against special forces in paintball.

Imagine a game like Rainbow Six Vegas where both the player and the enemy AI have the same armour, health systems (including regen) and weaponry and the computer has "real AI" which we shall assume is limited to human levels (as in the computer doesn't "cheat" and only has the same level of skill and senses that a regular human has).

This will not be fun for several reasons:

1) The player is outnumbered several dozen to one by "real" opponents.
2) The AI will coordinate the efforts of the soldiers under its command. They wont simply stand there waiting to be blasted apart like idiots.
3) The AI will lay traps, even simple behaviour like not shouting "there they are" and opening up the moment they spot a player instead staying out of sight until the player is exposed, in the centre of the room or has his back to them or simply by taking careful aim rather than spraying lead in a random fashion.
4) The AI will use proper tactics, again, even simple ones like where a bunch of enemy AI soldiers take careful cover and pin the player down in a doorway/behind a pillar using the same tools the player has (holding fire and aiming at where the human will pop out, then shooting him the moment he does for example) then simply flanking the player or else spamming grenades to flush them out.
5) The AIs actions will be better coordinated than a team of humans.

Either way a lone human will not have a chance against "real AI", try playing 1 against 15 in CS or COD. See how long you last.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 13/07/09 @ 15:50
kangarootoo
13/07/09 @ 16:15
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Absolutely.

Even one on one, I would expect a "realistic" special forces AI to own my sorry ass every single time. I probably wouldn't even see where the bullet came from. :)
MyPointIs
13/07/09 @ 17:09
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Not even movies show 'real AI', look at any action flick :-)
Games discovered years ago that it was all about finely tuned Artificial Stupidity.
Sharzam
13/07/09 @ 17:11
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We all want some sort of AI, in the most literal sense for example imagine halo or gears of war where the emenies walked into walls instead shooting you.

But we dont need AI in the more scientific way that Mr Grand is talking as this may be more realistic but not nessarily entertaining.
SHNUFF
13/07/09 @ 18:00
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"Of course there HAVE been plenty of advances in "videogame AI" over the years, but when it is done well you won't really notice, because that's the point of it."
"But we dont need AI in the more scientific way that Mr Grand is talking as this may be more realistic but not nessarily entertaining."

Has anyone here the slightest idea what Mr. Grand was talking about? Seems not. He never mentioned "entertaining" as any relevant goal of ai programming. This isnt about entertaining some fuckheads but doing some substantial research in this field. Gaming has relied on patterns (all the time for the better) to entertain, challenge and make the game what it is.
The thoughts mentioned here in the comments is just the same shit dumb developers have done since the invention of the computer. Its fucking *possible* to think about it, maybe do it, so lets try.
Either the results will be stellar, or, as now, irrelevant.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 13/07/09 @ 19:01
smelly
13/07/09 @ 21:30
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>i admire his work but Grand comes across as a bit of a dick.

says the guy who comes across as a dick...
notmyrealname
13/07/09 @ 22:51
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I wonder why AI has been so underdevelopped in games. So far I've seen little improvement on AI over the last 20 years. Maybe that's because people need easy games with big gfx..

would be nice if it made some bigger strides though:D

*fuck* even a game with a nice randomized AI would be awesome. I fondly remember MDK's enemies who were acting like a bunch of idiots. But at least they weren't that predictable.

*Another edit* To the poster who says fight CS AI and see how long you last... that's not what AI is about. You can easily make any AI unbeatable in an fps game or rts game. The challenge is to make it more adaptable to the player and less predictable so it offers a more versatile challenge, maybe even challenge the brain of the player instead of just reflexes.. but I'm ranting again.
Edited 2 times, most recently on 13/07/09 @ 23:56
kangarootoo
14/07/09 @ 08:53
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@SHNUFF

You need to calm down a bit.

Nobody is saying Grand's efforts aren't laudable (well, except the guy that called him a dick, but we'll ignore that). Its just that they don't apply to games, which is kind of the focus of the article.

Grand may not give a rats ass about games, and yet he has and in the future will again, release them.

Its all relevant to a wide ranging discussion. So have a glass of milk and count to ten. Then maybe you can join the discussion like an adult instead of an angry fuckhead (to coin your own).
Edited 1 times, most recently on 14/07/09 @ 10:39
ChrisOTR
14/07/09 @ 09:01
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SHODAN. Oh man, that was the pinnacle of my gaming career. Must've bought the first System Shock 3 or 4 times by now...
LordDante
14/07/09 @ 09:53
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When will we see the next system shock?
Sharzam
14/07/09 @ 18:48
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@kangarootoo

I totally agree.

@SHNUFF

Neither myself or the majortiy of the other posters here have said that the research of AI is pointless we just simpley saying that what AI in the terms of 'real' intelligence is not nessarily part of gaming.

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