PES 2010: The Road to Redemption?

Seabass and company plot their comeback.

PES 2010 is a big deal for Konami, and so it should be. Having been dethroned as the king of football games by FIFA 09 a year ago, there's an awful lot at stake. PES Productions entered a period of soul-searching as it began to understand where it had gone wrong - and how to put it right again.

If anything positive came out of last year's disappointing effort, it's that it inspired a new determination within the PES production camp to listen to people a bit more, and take on board feedback more than ever. With that in mind, Shingo 'Seabass' Takatsuka and European team leader Jon Murphy approach a recent face-off with the press at an event in France in a rather unusual way.

Rather than sit and field the same old questions, Seabass and Murphy direct the questions back at the press in a series of roundtable sessions as part of a new process of "listening and learning and improving". Rather than telling us the same old story about how it has improved AI, tactics, and team realism, the team uses its PES European Finals gala event in Nice as an opportunity to garner opinions from a wide cross-section of the very same people about to go and write reviews for the upcoming version. Although, well, Editor Tom's doing ours. [Sorry about that. - Ed]

'PES 2010: The Road to Redemption?' Screenshot 1

Self-defence!

"This year and, of course for the following year, we're going to continue this listening, learning and improving process as an important step for PES Productions and the PES series," Seabass tells us. "Of course, we have so many ideas in advance of making the game. However, it is also important to get feedback from the users and the press to make the game better."

Seabass and Murphy are keen to press the assembled for what we think of the new Team Style and Player Card system. As you'll remember from our hands-on, Team Style allows players to tweak various elements via a slider system, allowing you to press harder or hold your ground in possession, or fiddle with the defensive line, while, in the words of Seabass, a Player Card "is like a combination of pure additional skills and the ability to drill down into the individual rather than the whole team and make minor changes to how the individual plays within the squad."

The reasoning? "In previous titles," says Seabass, "there were so many segments that you had to undergo when you were changing the playing style of the team. You'd have to adjust this one... this one... then down this one!" He motions. "It was really complex when you wanted to play [in a specific way]. That's the reason why we introduced the card and slider systems, because it simplifies highly complex settings into one or two things."

You can't help admire the principle of the thing, but the feedback probably makes for uneasy listening, with the majority of the assembled hacks unsure of what tangible difference tweaking with Team Style or Player Cards makes - a problem that most players will almost certainly face.

To the average player, we reason for our hosts, the problem is that game offers no real feedback, and you don't have anything to compare it to unless you're a hardcore player and can instantly spot a difference. Most players, it's felt, will be intimidated into settling for the default settings and never even delve into the interesting new features on offer - however beneficial they may be. Indeed, Seabass admits, "It may be true that the casual gamers will not use the slider and card system." But, he insists, "even at the default setting, it is a way to enjoy PES 2010".

"It is really up to the user, if he wants to change the settings, to customise their playing style and tactics, that's all up to the user and we do not blame the user. If he doesn't even touch a single setting, he will still enjoy PES 2010."

To a degree he's right. For my money, PES 2010 is the most fluid, instinctive and enjoyable PES probably since PES5. During the media competition the previous night, I come to the game cold, never having had a warm-up match, and manage to win four out of six matches just playing through muscle memory of what's always worked in football games - football. But the fact remains that there's always the sense that you could be doing so much better if the game could only find a way of educating you about it.

The solution? Many are discussed, but one of the more interesting suggestions is a kind of 'interactive training' or 'tutorial exhibition' mode, which would essentially be played like a real match, only one with 'playing assists'. It would stop after key situations, and talk you through what would have happened if you had used different Team Style settings. It could also remember key moments of the match (including set-pieces) so you could rewind, play and practice them again, perfecting moves, tweaking tactics, giving you the chance to benefit from real match situations - something the current training mode is sorely lacking in. Other possibilities touched upon include providing control hints that encourage users to try using more complex manoeuvres, such as feints and shot variations, and taking the time to school them in doing so.

'PES 2010: The Road to Redemption?' Screenshot 2

Kuyt and Torres. Heroes both. [Yes, I did these captions. - Ed]

Many players feel that the 'tricks of the trade' in football games are jealously guarded secrets which the elite would rather insert needles into their own eyes than impart on their opponents, making it harder than it needs to be to get better at it. If the game actually has the option to tutor players in a more visible, more user-friendly and more practical manner, it's likely more people would be better at the game, and in turn would notice - and try out - some of the excellent-sounding changes the team work so hard to implement.

Interestingly, Seabass and company appear highly receptive to such suggestions, and come away from the various sessions expressing delight that so much constructive feedback had been gleaned in a short space of time. It's also notable how visible Seabass is at the event in general, taking time to studiously watch players in action for hours on end, impassive from the sidelines, no doubt keeping his fingers crossed that the reaction will be more favourable than last year.

So what of PES 2010 as a game? Technically, it looks extremely slick, with better facial likenesses, real-time lighting, smoother gameplay, swift load times, improved animation, a better front-end, and more licensed teams. Whether that makes it the equal of the mighty FIFA 10, we'll cover in our review tomorrow. One problem that PES 2010 faces is the exact same one FIFA faced for many years - how to convert people who are used to one game's way of doing things. The old issue was that rival football games became so refined that preference became an increasingly subjective decision. The danger last year was that it was an objective one: FIFA was superior.

Will that change this time? Bearing in mind the pace of innovation and reinvention in sports games, it may be too much to achieve in one step. But Konami's attitude bodes well for the future.

PES 2010: Pro Evolution Soccer is due out on 23rd October and reviewed on Eurogamer tomorrow morning.

Comments (45) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • KiLlerKnight #1 2 years ago

    I think I trust Eurogamer more than Guardian.
    We will see, very soon...
  • Pro_Gamer #2 2 years ago

    There is NO point in having annual releases. I mean really, do you really CARE if the team rosters are not up to date?? They could EASILY update this with an online patch, but no, they would rather butthurt you and take full cash for the same cow as last year. Also, sports games also lack the intensity of shooters. Sorry, but it had to be said.

    WAKE UP GAMERS...
  • KiLlerKnight #3 2 years ago

    Scoring the winning goal in extra time is pretty intense, gives me a better feeling than shooting the same damn Nazi again.
    There is a point in annual releases if they are really improving stuff, like Fifa in the last couple of years.
    Edited by 1 at 14/10/09 @ 06:51
  • Graftonator #4 2 years ago

    When Pro Evo was at it's peak, I used to play Master League every week for an entire year until the new one came out. When "Big Shooter 17" or GTA would come out, I would finish it and return to Pro Evo for my regular gaming treat! Shooters maybe more intense but there has never been a shooter that had me playing it's story mode over and over for an entire year.

    I've used "Big Shooter 17" as I can't actually remember any games that came out during the peak of Pro Evo that distracted me for long enough! So whilst shooters maybe more intense, it appears I can't remember most of them!

    Fifa was better last year but I didn't go back to it with the same regularity that I returned to Pro Evo, it just didn't have the same magic. Hopefully it can make steps in the right direction of returning to the top, as I personally think that Fifa has barely changed from last year and the fouling system is badly broken, along with several silly bugs in manager mode!

    The player likenesses in Pro Evo seem to be much better than the ones in Fifa. I'm only going on the demo here so maybe the Terry, Lampard, Keane and King likenesses will be just as laughably bad!
  • freakzilla #5 2 years ago

    I think its as much about mind-share and momentum as the quality of the game itself, and right now fifa and PES aren't fighting as equals. Fifa has become more established and as long as EA don't make a sony-like catastrophic mistake there's no reason for people not to continue with fifa next year.
  • Darren #6 2 years ago

    The demo was pretty good, good enough for me to pre-order the PC version with confidence which is not only ridiculously cheap (under £20) but also extremely moddable. The only thing that looked naff in the demo was the awful looking crowd graphics in the cinematics; the developers really should have applied lots of depth of field blurring here IMO! ;)

    I think Konami major problem with PES is that they have a small team forced to make the games yearly for too many systems. They should focus on the two major console formats, the PS3 and Xbox 360, and the PC and either drop the others as they likely sell less copies or bring in third-party developers to assist in coding the other versions for the Wii, PS2, DS and PSP, etc.
  • Darren #7 2 years ago

    @Pro_Gamer - Considering PES has never been fully licensed and that it is customisable to a large extent, they really is NO need for an annual update. Konami could focus on releasing the game every two years with a premium DLC update inbetween to update the players in the licensed teams. Hell, EA should be doing that with their FIFA series, which in all honesty does not change that much from one year to the next except for refinements/tweaks and updated stats.
  • THFourteen #8 2 years ago

    Will that change this time? Bearing in mind the pace of innovation and reinvention in sports games, it may be too much to achieve in one step. But Konami's attitude bodes well for the future.

    so basically no, PES is not any good this year either. But seabass is making all the same noises he does every year "this is the football game fans have been dying for"

    right.
  • duckncover #9 2 years ago

    @Darren - If EA did that, then FIFA would take its license to a company that would release yearly instalments. It's the same for every sport, they want to cash in on as much licensing as they can. If you think FIFA would stand for that then you are very naive.
  • Trifle #10 2 years ago

  • TheHammerite #11 2 years ago

    Thank goodness! If that Guardian article is accurate I for one will be delighted. While im no fan boy I do feel that Konami and EA at the top of their game will see Konami produce the better game.
    Im quite puzzled at the love in for the current fifa, it's good but not great, a bit like England actually.
  • sebsal #12 2 years ago

    Been playing Fifa 10 since release. The more I play, the more I hate it. Looking forward to the massive variety of goalmouth incidents in Pro Evo compared to the very predictable Fifa 10.

    Sure, Fifa 10 has better animation but PES is just much more fun IMO
  • TheHammerite #13 2 years ago

    Sebsal

    Couldn't agree more about Fifa, it really is predictable and boring. Glad I only paid £25 for it
  • Zomoniac #14 2 years ago

    I'm sure I've been playing a different demo to everyone else. What I played was a laughably bad experience that bore no real relation to football in comparison to FIFA. The players moved like bad robots, the ball was made of lead, and there appeared to be a man firing a shotgun whenever the ball was kicked. And it was fugly.

    And I'm still perplexed as to why journos always say that FIFA 09 was the game that took it beyond PES. FIFA 08 is a thousand times the game PES2008 was.
  • Zomoniac #15 2 years ago

    Been playing Fifa 10 since release. The more I play, the more I hate it. Looking forward to the massive variety of goalmouth incidents in Pro Evo compared to the very predictable Fifa 10.

    Turn off the assists. If you will insist on having the computer AI aim the shot for you then don't be surprised if it keeps going in the same place.
  • sebsal #16 2 years ago

    Turn off the assists. If you will insist on having the computer AI aim the shot for you then don't be surprised if it keeps going in the same place.

    I have shooting on semi. If I have it on manual, i can never score. I was more talking about the build up to each goal. Maybe it's just the way I play it.

    I agree, Pro Evo feels clunky compared to the smoothness of Fifa, but I just enjoy it so much more. Crossing for headed goals is far superior to Fifa and there is definitly a much greater variety of goalmouth incidents, not just talking about actual goals
    Edited by 1 at 14/10/09 @ 09:46
  • pesser #17 2 years ago

    online still shit ?
  • TheMoonRat #18 2 years ago

    And I'm still perplexed as to why journos always say that FIFA 09 was the game that took it beyond PES. FIFA 08 is a thousand times the game PES2008 was.
    I think this is due to the previous "known fact" that FIFA was the slick licensed game where the football was on rails, whereas Pro Evo played the better more realistic games. It's taken a year or two for it to be acceptable to admit that FIFA now plays the better game, because your right, FIFA 08 was where the tables were turned.
  • cianchristopher #19 2 years ago

    Firstly - wasn't it FIFA 08 that stole the crown from PES?

    Also, this "fake teams with fake names" bullshit is ridiculous! I didn't mind it when FIFA was second best, but now that EA have taken the lead in gameplay, PES feels like one of the most pointless releases on the calendar! (And, yes, I know you can change the names - but fuck that, I'd rather not waste my time)....

    It's starting to feel like EA's Rock Band vs. Konami's Rock Revolution.... (The Japs are slipping up, and they ain't got no Plan B)
  • Eurolamer #20 2 years ago

    How on earth did FIFA 10 get a 9 on here and so many other sites? Gameplay preferences aside, the single player mode is unacceptably buggy. It's almost as if EA decided to not bother with QA this year.

    Please, please be good Pro Evo. It's been off the boil for two years now but nothing has come close to producing the variety and lost weekends since it was in its pomp.
    Edited by 1 at 14/10/09 @ 10:07
  • Muzakjunkie #21 2 years ago

    Loved Fifa 09, but nothing has ever quite felt as good as PES 6 (new PES's included) to me. Fifa 10 feels flawed, online head to head with a friend hasnt worked once for me. Stuff like the sky not loading in when the camera pans round a stadium makes it feel unfinished and the 360 degree turning really doesnt make a blind bit of difference. That said it's still fun to play.

    Looking forward to PES 2010 the demo felt like the old ones and if thats anything to go by, then for me it's a return to form.
  • skillian #22 2 years ago

    @EarlBassett

    Rubbish. In their FIFA 10 review they pointed out that FIFA has been better than PES for at least the last two years, and their recent Risen review/article was fair more fair and accurate than EG's.
  • Tomo #23 2 years ago

    "For my money, PES 2010 is the most fluid, instinctive and enjoyable PES probably since PES5."

    Hmm. My ears pricked up when I read that bit. I've already bought FIFA10 as well. I really ought to try the demo.

    I think improving PES is a nightmare as it comes down to so much subjectivity. That said, adding new dials and shit like that isn't really the way to do it imo. The tactical options are miles, miles better than FIFA10's anyway. I think they need to concentrate on the game itself. I haven't played a PES properly for a long time, but I remember it being far more fluid back in the days of 4,5 and 6. I think I switched off when it went to PES xxxx numbers. I remember playing one of the demos and just thinking they'd nerfed it for speed, and it felt really sluggish.
  • dsmx #24 2 years ago

    Having played the PC demo of FIFA 10 my eyes need surgery so they can unsee what they saw. Dear god it's like stepping back to fifa 97 it terms of graphics. Essentially on the PC is PES or nothing because you couldn't live with how bad FIFA 10 looks on the PC.

    Who gave me a minus? Have you played the PC demo words do not sum up how bad it looks.
    Edited by 1 at 14/10/09 @ 10:41
  • Moonprince #25 2 years ago

    "I have shooting on semi. If I have it on manual, i can never score. I was more talking about the build up to each goal. Maybe it's just the way I play it."

    Welll sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit, ya think??
  • Ant1975 #26 2 years ago

    @Zamoniac

    Amen brother! I dont know what people see. Am i missing something? Even the WE10 demo videos i have seen which are supposedly better than the demo we got just seems like its had its speed ramped up a few notches.

    Fifa 10 is flawed in places but the core gameplay when playing MANUAL is a fine representation of the sport. Plus theres a patch coming along anyway for those playing online and manager mode.

    I just cant see Pes being distinctly superior to last years version.
  • Zomoniac #27 2 years ago

    Ultimately Seabass needs to do what EA did with FIFA 07, just ditch everything and start again. FIFA 07 was heavily flawed and lacking in content, but even then you could see signs with the new animation and physics engines that it could be truly brilliant. And eventually it was. Instead of adding 2 new pointless animations every year and claiming that they've been redone he needs to complete remove every single one, no exceptions and rebuild the whole lot from the ground up. And redo all the sound effects, and a lot of the ball physics, and the AI. Fuck it, just rebuild the game from the start. Sure, next year's will be a bit rubbish and won't have much content in it, and will piss some people off, but in the long run it's what's necessary to compete. The foundations of the game are wayyy out of date, and the game can only be as good as its basic foundations, so no amount of photorealistic faces or 360 degree dribbling that only seems to work at a crawling pace is going to drastically improve matters until the foundations are stripped up and rebuilt.
  • Darren #28 2 years ago

    @dsmx - The PC demo of FIFA 10 is awful. Not only does it look like an upscaled title from 2004 but it runs jerkily on my Core i7/GTX 280 setup @ 1920x1200 despite the framerate showing as a flawless 60 fps. It doesn't even have any AA. PES 2010 on the other hand looks way better and runs silky smooth at all times, still at 60 fps, even in the replays and cinematics. Any PC owner opting for FIFA 10 over PES 2010 is insane IMO; current licenses aside, it's a very dated game.
  • JensonJet #29 2 years ago

    I think the sliding scale system adopted in the new PES works perfectly. Having direct control of how attacking minded or how quickly the team press the opposition made the demo by far the best football game I've touched. The basic text menus still leave a lot to be desired. I wish they'd hire a good design team to sort out what has become (or stayed) a very ugly front end.

    I totally agree with the suggestion about Konami releasing a full new game every two years with updates inbetween. Going head-to-head with FIFA is clearly not working. Konami are too lazy, do too little and make too many mistakes to use this business plan any longer. They have already made enough bad decision that has allowed FIFA to be the better game in many peoples eyes. A change in management at Konami has to be on the cards. In my opinion Seabass is a negative force and needs to accept he cannot compete with the people responsible for FIFA. He may have brought life to Pro Evo, but he's now the one destroying it, slowly. Change of business plan; change of management; change of fortune.
  • itsfuzzy #30 2 years ago

    To little to late. Now they are loosing market share they want to listen to PES gamers.
    Should have listened between PES4 and PEs 2008 when online play was a disgrace.
    And definitely after the online petitions that sprung up after the joke that was PES 2008.
    To late closing the door after the horse has bolted.
  • swissorc #31 2 years ago

    Still not getting either. When this time next year rolls around and I have finally done everything fifa 09 has to do then I might go hmmmmmmmmmm time for a new football game. The only exception is if I get PES2010 on wii as it is a completely different type of game more like a football rts.
  • Zebula77 #32 2 years ago

    I disagree with that ending statement. I thought PES was better last year, but I agree with that opinion being subjective, since both games have reached such a high level of playability.

    This is also why I won't bother with FIFA 10 this year. I liked the demo, and I'm sure it's brilliant. But it doesn't feel like PES, which is why I prefer PES. The way it feels.

    Looking forward to the review tomorrow. :)
  • KennySim #33 2 years ago

    Eurogamer, can you please stop this constant Liverpool bias and be more professional?
  • tinners #34 2 years ago

    Totally agree with anyone saying take it off "assisted" when people moan that FIFA is too predictable. If EA bothered to deliberate between Auto, Semi, and Manual and call it something like Beginner, Rookie, Pro people might understand there is more depth than having the computer do everthing for you, rather than you actually getting to pass or score your own goals the way you want in manual.

    The amount of auto-bots i loose to on manual does my head in, what happened to making a game challenging?

    As for Pro i think its a big step up from last year but so is FIFA in terms of the gap they have now put between Pro and FIFA, i never thought id see this day. Either way football wins!!
    Edited by 2 at 14/10/09 @ 15:06
  • LudusSolers #35 2 years ago

    Can't help but think FIFA still has the edge over PES this year; simply because it would take a monumental improvement over last year's effort (which itself was a damned sight better than PES 2008) that I just haven't seen from anything shown so far. I would be keen to see how they implement their version of 360-degree dribbling, especially seeing as FIFA 10 did it so well.

    Interesting to see that no mention was made of Wii PES, which last year again proved again to be the superior version.
  • Syrette #36 2 years ago

    What's with the people commenting on that Guardian talking about how they're now thinking of trading in FIFA 10 for PES2010?

    Because of one guy's opinion? Who on earth is Greg Howson and why does his opinion hold so much weight?
  • dsmx #37 2 years ago

    It's probably more to do with the fact that it's the first half assed step towards a review of PES 2010 that's made it onto the internet that wasn't from a fan site.
  • chasejamie #38 2 years ago

    Fifa 10 is brilliant with everything switched to manual, it plays a very realistic game of football if your playing against another manual human player. Still can't wait for Pro Evo though, I hope they have fixed online. I want some old school 2 vs 2 with no (or at least minimum) lag.
  • Rodchenko #39 2 years ago

    FIFA 10 feels great initially because it plays so smooth with the new 360-motion and the animations are so realistic, but as sebsal said, the longer you play it the more repetitive and boring it gets and the more you spot shite like the endless post/crossbar hitting, the fact that 9 out of 10 of your crosses and corners are cleared by the CPU defence and that every long range shot either goes wide or is super-paraded away by the keeper.

    Also I never really understood the concept behind all-manual play, because it basically means that you are nannying world-class players who, after all, should know where to pass the ball to in the first place. It also doesn't go well with pick-up-and-play, imo. Not all of us have hours on end to practice and sometimes I just want to have fun. PES seems to deliver more of the latter this year.

    As for sliders: NHL 10 is rather excellent in that you can finetune both for your teammates and the opponent AI factors like aggressiveness, pass and shot speeds, injuries, penalties etc. There are tons of sliders in there which allow for a great way of customizing your gaming experience and I don't know why something similar isn't in any football game yet.
  • Feanor #40 2 years ago

    Fuck Konami for removing great and useful features for no reason.
  • swisstony #41 2 years ago

    "but now that EA have taken the lead in gameplay, PES feels like one of the most pointless releases on the calendar! "

    The tables were turned for years, why not allow them to work out how to regain advantage, benefitting us all in the process.
  • Ant1975 #42 2 years ago

    @Rodchenko

    Funny to see people trot out the 'fun' line regarding Pes. Is that what its come down to now? It used to be the footballing gamers simulation of choice and Fifa was the fun, arcadey kickabout.

    I dont quite understand how people are saying the game is repetitive. i've never had a repetetive game on it. then again i dont play on assisted or semi assisted.

    For those who don't know:

    Fifa has 5 difficulty settings: Amateur, Semi pro, Pro, World class and legendary.

    in addition it also has three control schemes:

    assisted, semi assisted and manual.

    Getting the right mix of these two sets of settings is crucial to your experience of the game. if you dont experiment, especially with the manual settings your not going to see the depth of gameplay available.

    Also i must point out the ridiculous point of there being no benefit to controlling your world class players on manual. Thats the point, you are playing as them and trying to emulate how they play. If i play with Gerrard and Torres i want them to have their abilities but at my disposal, and using my skill to pull it off, not for the a.i to do it for me.
    Edited by 2 at 14/10/09 @ 16:51
  • tinners #43 2 years ago

    @ chasejamie

    Agreed! but against an auto-bot, manual hinders you which is annoying cos i consider it far more skillful :(
  • tinners #44 2 years ago

    @EarlBassett

    "The Guardian is just like Eurogamer"

    Is it fuck! the Guardian isn't dedicated purely towards games, thats like saying Nuts mag giving Pro 10/10 actually means something.

    that fella is brave to even speak about it before it's out, normally they wait a week for Metacritic to update before having an opinion.
  • stephenb #45 2 years ago

    'Self-Defence' below picture of Gerrard! lol, genius :D