New Xbox Experience: DVD vs. Hard Disk Face-Off

By Richard Leadbetter Published 11 November, 2008

Is it worth installing stuff? We investigate.

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For a dashboard upgrade supposedly aimed at attracting the 'casual' audience, New Xbox Experience actually has a lot of love for the core 360 enthusiast gamer. The Party mode craved by Live users has been incorporated, tweaks long asked for have been made to the VGA/HDMI video outputs, but perhaps most surprisingly of all, Microsoft has allowed gamers to optionally install their games to hard disk. This is - potentially - a very good thing.

Eurogamer has never been a massive fan of the mandatory installations required on many PlayStation 3 releases. It has a fundamental impact on the 'plug and play' nature of console gaming, especially when you can be sitting about for up to 25 minutes waiting to play your brand new release. It also forces you to manage hard disk space efficiently, especially if you have a lower-capacity drive in your PS3. There's also the fact that once you've deleted your game install, as you inevitably will in order to get more mandatory installs onto your hard disk, you'll need to wait another 25 minutes if, for example, you fancy a one-off late-night blast on Devil May Cry 4 sometime in the future.

That said, we've always been fan of the optional installs found in PS3 games like Ridge Racer 7, Virtua Fighter 5, and more recently, Disney's excellent Pure. You've still got that instant accessibility that is a fundamental part of console gaming, but if you want your games to load faster, and you're willing to deal with the hassles of deleting content to let your new games run, the option is there. With NXE, remarkably, that option is available for every single game in your library - except Crackdown or Dead or Alive Xtreme 2, which bizarrely aren't compatible with the new hard disk function.

'New Xbox Experience: DVD vs. Hard Disk Face-Off' Screenshot 1

NXE launches on 19th November. But will HDD sales go into overdrive on the 20th?

The only other PS3 comparison worth mentioning is the question of install and deletion times. The 360 stores its files as disc images - whatever the Xbox version of an ISO may be. It's literally one file. That means that installation times are basically the same for any given amount of data, and deletion is virtually instant (as just one file is being erased from the table of contents). PS3 on the other hand uses variable installation techniques depending on the developer - the reason Devil May Cry 4 takes so long to install is that it's copying across multiple files rather than just one sustained write. It's also why it takes a long while to delete too.

But the real question for 360 owners is: just how much of an impact does the optional install make? With so many games streaming data from the DVD on the fly, do we actually see any improvements to gameplay as well as loading times? Do all games benefit with shorter loading times? We set out to find out.

The methodology for the tests was remarkably straightforward - my workhorse Xbox 360 Elite ran a carefully selected range of ten top games, first from DVD, then from hard disk. Video captures of both gameplay run-throughs allowed us to get frame-accurate loading times (rounded up to the nearest half-second) and the comparison of the selected footage could also be used to judge any differences in game performance.

As the vast majority of the userbase would be running NXE from the 20GB hard disk, that's what we did too. In truth, I've never got around to moving my content over from the launch era hard disk to the 120GB drive that came with the Elite. This aged drive has never been formatted and never had its cache cleared. It's basically had three years of everyday heavy use, and for the purposes of this test, we left just 7GB free - in short, we're filling the hard disk to capacity, just to make things even more challenging.

As the opportunity to install to HDD is obviously a compelling argument for upgrading the hard disk (and probably a key reason for adding the feature in the first place) we also did some tests on the default 120GB drive, unused and unloved since I bought the Elite, but perhaps now worth a bit more respect.

Enough small talk. Let's get to work.

Gears of War 2

Install Size: 6.7GB

Epic's Gears of War 2 is an excellent example of a game designed from the ground up to minimise disc loading. It loads its campaigns while the cinematics are running - a trick also used in PlayStation 3 titles including Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. Gears 2 is therefore multiplexing video and audio data with the maps in one file streamed off the hard disk.

That being the case, the tangible benefits of installing the game to HDD effectively amount to loading the game, restoring your save position or accessing multiplayer options, all of which are covered in our measurements. As you can see, Epic's streaming is extremely well optimised for playing from disc, to the point where the hard disk installation barely makes any positive impact whatsoever, aside from saving yourself the odd second here and there, and of course reducing the volume of your Xbox 360.

Section Tested DVD Load Time HDD Load Time
Initial Load 32 seconds 24 seconds
Tip of the Spear (Digging In) 18 seconds 15 seconds
Gathering Storm 29 seconds 29 seconds
Denizens (Scattered) 17 seconds 11.5 seconds
Horde Stage (Avalanche) 16 seconds 16 seconds
Training Grounds (The Basics) 10.5 seconds 9.5 seconds

The Orange Box

Install Size: 4.7GB

'New Xbox Experience: DVD vs. Hard Disk Face-Off' Screenshot 2

Favours the HDD, we reckon.

Yes, you read that correctly. Despite featuring five different games in one phenomenal package, The Orange Box in its entirety fills only 4.7GB of the theoretical 6.8GB limit imposed by an Xbox 360-formatted dual-layer DVD. It's also one of the few games where performance is hugely improved by the installation. The measurements below speak for themselves; on all of the major Half-Life 2 games, loading times are often twice as fast, while the lighter content additions to the Orange Box feature far fewer benefits.

The Orange Box goes about its business in a decidedly old-skool manner. There's nothing in the way of on-the-fly geometry or texture streaming going on - Valve opted for discrete loading of each section of gameplay as and when it is needed, and that kind of PC-styled approach clearly favours the hard disk installation. In-game performance is totally identical as a result, too.

Section Tested DVD Load Time HDD Load Time
Loading Half-Life 2 44.5 seconds 25.5 seconds
Half Life 2 Save Game - 'We don't go there any more' 47 seconds 15 seconds
Loading Episode 1 38 seconds 22 seconds
Episode 1 Save Game - 'Direct Intervention' 17.5 seconds 17 seconds
Loading Episode 2 40.5 seconds 25 seconds
Episode 2 Save Game - 'This Vortal Coil' 16 seconds 14 seconds
Loading Portal 34.5 seconds 20.5 seconds
Portal Save Game - 'Testchamber 15' 7.5 seconds 6.5 seconds
Loading Team Fortress 2 57.5 seconds 41.5 seconds
TF2 '2Fort' Capture the Flag System Link match 31 seconds 31 seconds
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Comments (263) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Benno #1 3 years ago

    Not worth it with a 20gb then.

  • muscleblade #2 3 years ago

    Not really worth it imo unless you have 120 Gig hdd.

  • mcbi4kh2 #3 3 years ago

    Well done who ever did all those speed tests, must have been monumentally boring.

    So can any game be installed or does the game have to have that feature (re both 360 and ps3)?

  • jimmyjimbob #4 3 years ago

    homemade hddhackr 120gb upgrade FTW then? £35 for the 120gb WD drive and a bit of patience with copying over the old partitions is probably beginning to look worth it

  • sem1604 #5 3 years ago

    decibel levels would have been interesting, silent mode as opposed to hair dryer mode

  • malteaserhead #6 3 years ago

    Halol 3

    Someone had to do it

  • THATinkjar #7 3 years ago

    mcbi4kh2: Every game supports this, except for Crackdown and Dead or Alive Xtreme 2. This was on the first page of the article.

  • Lebowski #8 3 years ago

    I've barely enough room left to download a swinging cat.

    Still, it's good for those who won't have to hear an Xbox 747 taking-off from now on.

  • dr_faulk #9 3 years ago

    What the hell!? No Oblivion tests!?!?

    Come EG, give us a hint! And not just load times, but in-game play: does it still stutter along?

  • mrpon #10 3 years ago

    IGN Noise Test here

  • woodnotes #11 3 years ago

    ps3lol

  • Psychotext #12 3 years ago

    Halo 3 tests were very interesting. I've always suspected that you could actually improve times if using the HDD and DVD together properly rather than just the HDD. I'd like to see those numbers done without a HDD at all.

    Surprised to see a difference between the 120gb and 20gb HDDs, though it was minimal.

  • electrolite #13 3 years ago

    Good article EG! This takes dedication....

  • mcbi4kh2 #14 3 years ago

    @THATinkjar Oh yeah, oops. I just skipped to the tables.

  • OnlyMe #15 3 years ago

    The only game I'm interested in is Lost Odyssey. That could certainly use some reduced loading times, and I don't think it's been very optimized for the DVD drive, so an installation should give it a nice little boost.

  • Thunderbolt #16 3 years ago

    I'll give it a go, what the hell if it works cool otherwise back to loading from discs. Fortunately its not enforced at this point.

    I like the sound of a quiter 360 (but come on once you playing a game or watching a movie you dont really notice it)

  • Yossarian #17 3 years ago

    My number one concern is taking the strain off the hardware, considering my disc drive makes horrible noises sometimes these days, and on occasion refuses to open. But the variability of the results is interesting. I wonder if developers will take into account the possibility of installation in future.

  • andywilkie35 #18 3 years ago

    Great news, got a new 120gb drive the other week and altho some of the times are a matter of seconds, I still think its worth it

  • dynarama #19 3 years ago

    Hopefully it will stop all those disk read errors that I get on Fallout 3 all the frickin time.

  • Latin #20 3 years ago

    The sounds difference is massive, additionally if it's cooler and the DVD isn't running, surely the likelihood of malfunction should be reduced.

    If you've got the space on your hard drive it seems like the choice is simple.

  • Darren #21 3 years ago

    Nice article, EG, and I agree, having been using NXE for over a week now with a 120 GB HDD, that the only real noticeable advantage of installing games is for the reduced noise.

    Loading times are barely improved in the ten games I have installed, certainly they're not really obvious if they are, and only Fable II, Viva Pinata (the first game) and Midnight Club: LA seem to benefit in others ways. The former has smoother, less laggy menu access (as mentioned), the middle one has quicker menu loading times and the latter seems to suffer less from slow loading textures... maybe (although this may be a coincidence as I've played the game off the disc and not seen this issue every time).

    Games which you'd think would benefit from using the HDD like Gears of War 2 and GTA IV, both of which use streaming, don't appear to run any better. Indeed, the former still takes 10-15 seconds to load the textures at the start of multiplayer maps but, having said that, I never noticed any texture pop in during the campaign.

    So it is a nice feature to have because it is *optional* but at the same it isn't really as useful as you'd expect apart from the blissful silence you get from playing games from the HDD. I guess Xbox 360 games are highly optimised to run from the DVD, or as suggested by one EG member, HDD access speeds are compromised on the 360 due to the interface design and in some cases, as with Halo 3, it is *slower* than playing off the DVD.

  • hiddenranbir #22 3 years ago

    Worth it on my 20gig so I don't have many 360 games. :)

  • rotmm #23 3 years ago

    Good article. Well done.

  • DFawkes #24 3 years ago

    That Orange Box one is incredible, and certainly looks well worth it. Apart from that, it's a nice option, except on Halo 3.

  • muscleblade #25 3 years ago

    If the fan noise get significally more silent its worth it. Im buying the overpriced 120gig right away for my first 360 (the normal release one). Its terribly noisy.

    edit: Thanks Darren for mentioning the noise. Very important factor imo.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 11:34

  • Buztafen #26 3 years ago

    Fable 2 and Mass Effect improvements = WIN! Should fit snuggly on a 20gb (i think)

  • Darren #27 3 years ago

    dr_faulk - "What the hell!? No Oblivion tests!?!?

    Come EG, give us a hint! And not just load times, but in-game play: does it still stutter along?"

    I've tried that game as well as Fallout 3 having played both extensively from the disc and, oddly, neither benefit from HDD installs at all. Maybe the loading times are a second or two quicker but it's not glaringly noticeable and both games still suffer from the same hitching/stuttering from time to time. Installing either to the HDD is a waste of time really unless you want the peace and quiet. Fallout 3 especially seems to play exactly the same off the disc and the HDD.

    P.S. Having NXE installed does make scrolling down the save game list in Fallout 3 much quicker. I'm someone who has 20 saves and I overwrite the earlier one each time. With the old dashboard scrolling down the list to the bottom was a horrid, chuggy affair but with NXE it is very quick. This has nothing to do with the HDD install by the way, it's just improvements to the operating system itself. For example, accessing HDD files in the Memory area is now 10-20X faster than before, a godsend if like me you backup your HDD save games regularly to memory units. Before it used to take over 30 seconds to read the HDD before I could even copy a file then another 30 seconds afterwards to re-read the directory. Now it is instantaneous.

    NXE is great IMO, the best update to the Xbox 360 yet. It makes it feel like a whole new machine. Well done, Microsoft. :)
    Edited by 3 at 11/11/08 @ 11:42

  • menage #28 3 years ago

    The noise reduction is more interesting than the reduction in load times. Still, nice that we have the option.

    Now to get 120G

  • rhinoxious #29 3 years ago

    My 360 is noisier than my projector, surround sound amp and NAS added together. This is a good step-forward, but really I want a secomd gen Xbox 360 - it should be smaller and almost silent.

  • paulf #30 3 years ago

    no more plane taking off - hurrah :)

  • dr_faulk #31 3 years ago

    @ Darren

    Thank you very much! I've been curious about this for the longest time. Looks like the noise reduction will be enough to make me install to the HD.

  • jonsaan #32 3 years ago

    Can we now have PS3 v 360 install offs please. That would be really great..........

  • ps3owner #33 3 years ago

    what ? HDD installs?! How many years late?! XBLOL360 ?!

    ah who cares. can you install custom HDD's then ? just wondering if you have to fork out for the branded HDD supplied by Vault tech (too much Fallout* ;)) or a no name company



    *PC version

  • YogiTah #34 3 years ago

    Does it make any difference for disc read errors or hangups (have them all the times)??


  • penhalion #35 3 years ago

    Ignoring the speed increase. All we really wanted to know was does it silence the 360?

  • ben.ansell69 #36 3 years ago

    I don't think it's mentioned in the article but does anyone who has been using NXE know how long it actually takes to install a game from the DVD to the HDD?

  • jaluuk #37 3 years ago

    It would have been interesting (in a really geeky way) to include the time of install too. That way you could figure out how many times you'd have to play a game (or how many loading scenes you'd have to see) in order to be saving time.

  • ryohazuki1983 #38 3 years ago

    Noise reduction and helping to save the dvd-drive seems to be the best benefit.

    One question I have though,

    I used to work as a compliance tester on Xbox games.

    The Xbox (assume 360 as well) HDD has utility regions for the games to store data, resulting in faster subsequent loading times, e.g if you die then the level loads much faster as the data is cached or even if you played a game previously, switch off your xbox,next time you turned the xbox on and play the same game again it will load much faster as the data is already cached. Xbox had 3 utility regions for 3 seperate titles (Well halo was greedy and used 2 but MS of course allowed that!).

    Does 360 work the same way? if so I wonder how the the utility region would impact/invalidate the speed tests?

    Then again i'm probably just talking rubbish? would be interested to know if anybody has worked on 360?

  • Darren #39 3 years ago

    @ben.ansell69 - "I don't think it's mentioned in the article but does anyone who has been using NXE know how long it actually takes to install a game from the DVD to the HDD?"

    It takes roughly 10-12 minutes for a typical 7 GB install. Obviously smaller installs like Far Cry 2, which is only 4.5 GB, are quicker. No disc on the 360 will ever take 25 minutes to install like on the PS3, thankfully, as the most a DVD can hold is 7.2 GB I believe.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 11:54

  • mcmonkeyplc #40 3 years ago

    Halol failure!

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You didn't test it on MP though, which is where it gets most usage now.

  • anomagnus #41 3 years ago

    the elite is virtually silent

    no hair dryer simulator here

    also, i get the feeling that the game install is there as a technical option for those that want it, not really a cure all

    but maybe new games built with it in mind can deliver better results

    roll on the 19th

  • #42 3 years ago

    I read somewhere that the NXE is being launched a few days after the extended warranty scheme runs out. Is this true?

  • rotmm #43 3 years ago

    @DaemonB,

    Well, if you bought a 360 at launch, then yes, the 3 year extended warranty will be up about now.

  • stevetuck #44 3 years ago

    atleast it was not another game face-off :/

  • Rash' #45 3 years ago

    "Microsoft has allowed gamers to optionally install their games to hard disk."

    How optional it is, if you want to make sure you system lasts the distance, is up for debate.

  • layleeloo #46 3 years ago

    Evident from day one this was going to be pointless

  • chrisjm #47 3 years ago

    Hmm, install time x 3 seconds saving = lots of time to make up the time.
    obviously you could install whilst taking a dump to increase efficiency :p

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #48 3 years ago

    I was curious as to why Crackdown didn't work (since I wrote a significant amount of Crackdown's streaming code, but am not still at RTW to hear anything from Microsoft on the issue).

    However, reading the bit about Halo's performance being degraded, I think I have an idea. Crackdown's streaming performance is tuned very tightly to what the DVD is capable of, an in coop (which requires a hard drive) it's tuned to what the combination of hard drive and DVD can do. If the game is expecting to be able to read data off two drives at once, but both are suddenly on the same drive, it'll make performance worse, possibly bad enough to break coop play.

    I have a feeling it'd cause improvements for the singleplayer experience (since it's designed to work without hard disk), but coop would be screwed.


    ... alternatively, if the xbox pretends the hard disk isn't there when it's playing installed DVDs, they coop would be locked out in Crackdown and it's be incompatible that way.

  • syphaa #49 3 years ago

    interesting article for sure.
    looks like the install to HD is a bit over rated then. Good job as I really can't be arsed to install to HD :)

  • Darren #50 3 years ago

    @DaemonB - Don't all Xbox 360's new and old come with a three year warranty if you experience RRODs? I didn't think it applied only to launch models. :?

  • Weezer #51 3 years ago

    Yeah, I was hoping for some magical improvement in things like texture loading etc, but it looks like it's a 'nice thing to have' rather than an absolute necessity.

    Ho hum.

  • muscleblade #52 3 years ago

    @ps3owner

    Later: Yes

    Mandatory: No

    360 ftw easily.

  • Darren #53 3 years ago

    @Rash' - You're forgetting that installing games to the HDD actually increases wear and tear on that rather than the 360 so HDD failure is actually more likely. An HDD still has moving parts like a DVD drive. Sure replacing an HDD is better than replacing the 360 itself but not if you lose all your save games, etc. Whether you play games from the DVD or HDD, both are as equally as likely to fail IMO.

    That said, anyone with any sense will backup save games to a memory unit "just in case".

  • Rash' #54 3 years ago

    Interestingly no mention of install times...

  • Eraser #55 3 years ago

    I've never, ever had any problems with loading times in any console game so far.

  • Darren #56 3 years ago

    Never played PGR 3 then, Eraser? ;)

  • ParanoidZombie #57 3 years ago

    I was hoping for a ninja gaiden 2 face-off, because load times are too long, especially in mission mode, and my 360 is at its noisiest when it loads this game... And there were a couple hiccups in chapter 2 that a good install could fix. Since this is still the game i play the most - my personal GOTY, even if i'm aware that gears 2 and fallout 3 are actually better -, this is my prime candidate for an install on my tiny 20gig HD.

  • Rash' #58 3 years ago

    Darren, so either way it's a risk? The question then is which is the greater risk? (Edit: the HDD one is unavoidable.) And as you so rightly point out better to lose the HDD than the console itself. Couple that with most 360 owners' concerns with the "jet fan" and I have to say again, it's debatable how optional it is.

    Edit: Once again, interesting no mention is made of the install time...
    Edited by 2 at 11/11/08 @ 12:22

  • Bezzy #59 3 years ago

    Thanks very much for this!
    What would be quite nice is a ranked table of which games get the most benefit. I know it's not as easy as that (Fable 2 seems to improve in a lot of non-loading screen aspects), but maybe a straight Average Loading Benefit top ten would be cool?

    I think that everyone will be looking to install the intersection of games which get most benefit with which games they love the most.

  • XdarXideX #60 3 years ago

    I'll be installing my games to reduce loading times and noise levels from the DVD drive. Not only will wear on the DVD drive be much less but it will also let the 360 run slightly cooler. Sorry, I just don't see how this is a bad thing... so stop bitching.

  • Dark_Stranger #61 3 years ago

    you all forgot to mention that the only reason you will now need to get up off the sofa whilst playing the 360 is to get more beer as you can preload all your games onto the console before hand & wont have to keep loading game cd's.

    Saying that, will you still need the game cd in the tray to confirm you own the game? also, how long before someone figures out how to copy downloaded game iso's onto the hdd?

  • captainrentboy #62 3 years ago

    So to sum up, I'm not going to bother installing any of my games, an extra couple of seconds wait here and there doesn't bother me. Especially as I still have a bloody 20gig Premium, it's annoying enough juggling the available 13 gig as it is.

  • Chufty #63 3 years ago

    So, the hastily ported PC game benefits greatly, while the made-for-console games don't benefit that much as they're designed to load content from the DVD in the first place? Who would have predicted such a result?

  • Eraser #64 3 years ago

    The very important thing I'm missing from this article though is how long the games take to install..

  • peterfll #65 3 years ago

    Thanks EG for writing the articles I like to read, when no-one else seems to bother.

  • don81 #66 3 years ago

    Ok so go to shops, buy game, install, take back to shop and say got it brought as a present, can i swap it, get another game, go home install it, take it back to shop etc etc etc
    Anyone think that may happen?

  • Rash' #67 3 years ago

    don81, No you still need the disc in the drive to play the game.

  • SeesThroughAll #68 3 years ago

    Ok so go to shops, buy game, install, take back to shop and say got it brought as a present, can i swap it, get another game, go home install it, take it back to shop etc etc etc
    Anyone think that may happen?

    That's why you still need the DVD in the drive even if you're loading the game from the HDD ;)

  • XdarXideX #69 3 years ago

    You need the disc in the drive to confirm you still have the game. Microsoft aren't stupid.

  • Dark_Stranger #70 3 years ago

    @ Don, I did, just in not so many words.

  • don81 #71 3 years ago

    oh oops, sorry the way i read it you don't need the disk to play it. Any one know how long it takes if you have to install 6GB, as got PS3 and 360, so as what platform to buy most games for?

  • StooMonster #72 3 years ago

    @ Darren

    Failure rate of most hard drives these days is up in the once in a hundred years territory, you can check on the manufacturers websites; whereas DVD-ROM drives and discs (especially) are less so.

    I've decided this Xmas to delve into the console world -- it's okay gaming PC, I'm not cheating on you -- and have settled on the idea of Xbox 360 rather than PS3, I plan to purchase the Elite model (or an Arcade with a 120GB pack) specifically so I can install games to hard drive to reduce noise.

    It's a shame that you cannot use any hard drive, as perhaps the speed would be improved if 7,200 RPM drives were allowed (or 10,000 RPM drives if 3.5-inch models were possible -- love Raptors).

  • Thunderbolt #73 3 years ago

    Another silly question if the disc has to stay in the drive, will it be still or spinning thus making noise?

  • Rash' #74 3 years ago

    Thunderbolt!: Well the features been introduced to reduce noice and wear and tear to the shite drive so my powers of deduction suggest it is still.

    Edit: Again, EG, quick to make comparisons with PS3 in the article (when lets be frank it wasn't necessary) and yet no mention of actual interesting facts; like the install time.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 12:36

  • doehead #75 3 years ago

    @Mentalist(air)

    That's very interesting reading about how Crackdown works. Any comments though on why (for me) it takes about a minute from the title screen appearing and it checking for DLC before I can actually interact with the menus. Without DLC on the hard drive, it takes a fraction of the time.

    Am I just unlucky, or is there all sorts of DRM nonsense going on behind the scenes that whatever reasons causes Crackdown to take ages to verify?

  • dryden555 #76 3 years ago

    Not pointless -- the major plus is quicker load times from a save point because that typically mean reloading the game level from the DVD drive. So, I am VERY happy about this.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 12:45

  • Dogs-in-Hats #77 3 years ago

    When I occasionally turn on my PS3, I spend most of my time watching the download / install bar.
    Microsoft, You don't need to copy this feature

  • Ryze #78 3 years ago

    Woah. Orange Box WILL be installed!

  • "him" #79 3 years ago

    Does anyone know if the install to HD option allow you to play system link games with just one copy of the game? I was wondering if the system requires the DVD in the drive to initially start only or does it need to remain in the drive? I am hoping the the Xbox doesn't still "reset" when the tray eject button is pressed?

  • mattigan #80 3 years ago

    yada yada yada.

    However, in the future I would expect developers to make much more use of this option, thus making it highly desirable.

  • MasterNameless #81 3 years ago

    Great article, very handy knowing all the precise stats to get a good idea of how it's all going to work.

    @!Thunderbolt

    I imagine the DVD drive will spin the disc at a low rpm when you boot the game - that you installed to the HDD - to check that you have the correct disc in the drive, then it can just remain still the rest of the time. And surely, ejecting the disc would still take you back to the dashboard?

    @Rash'

    As a few people above said, the install times sound like a maximum of 12 mins. It's bound to be less than the PS3's install time as you can't fit as much on the disc - and surely the DVD's reading speeds are much quicker than that of the Blu-rays too?

    Somebody posted a decent IGN noise comparison that mentions the install time on the previous page too.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 12:49

  • Rash' #82 3 years ago

    mattigan: ROFL! So what are you saying it'll become a mandatory install? As a PS3 owner I find that hilarious!
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 12:49

  • BobsUncle #83 3 years ago

    Jesus christ Rash stop going on about install times! How many times have you mentioned it? three?

    Squarejawhero says he's using it and it takes less that ten minutes, and if you actually read the article EG say it's only copying one big image file so all games of the same size will be the same. So expect 10 mins to be the max.

  • Darren #84 3 years ago

    To people asking about how long the games take to install to the HDD - I've already answered this earlier, it takes about 10-12 minutes for a 7 GB game. Most Xbox 360 games seem to be just shy of 7 GB but a few are smaller like Far Cry 2 which is 4.5 GB. These will obviously have proportionally shorter install times.

  • Rash' #85 3 years ago

    Darren, Sorry, didn't spot that post. Still shocking omission from the article.

  • m0thr4 #86 3 years ago

    decibel levels would have been interesting, silent mode as opposed to hair dryer mode

    Umm, no it's a choice between washing machine and hair dryer mode; the XBox 360 does not have a "silent" mode.

  • Rash' #87 3 years ago

    MasterNameless, Nah, not picking holes, just find mattigan's hypothosis hilarious!

  • MasterNameless #88 3 years ago

    lol @ Rash' trying to pick holes. There's no way this will become mandatory, but if it makes you guys feel better, you just hold on to that thought!

    edit: whoops, hit delete by mistake... switch these comments around! ^^

    Fair enough, but it seems like you're trying to latch onto something to not like! But the word 'optional' being thrown around so often suggests it's just as much MS's own swipe at PS3, as it is them wanting to copy it at the same time! Making them mandatory would be a ridiculously stupid move by MS when it doesn't make that much of a difference than loading from disc - bar the noise, of course.
    Edited by 2 at 11/11/08 @ 13:03

  • IneptPercy #89 3 years ago

    I wonder is a developer would be able to let you install 2 discs in a dual disc game but then only need say disc 1 to authorise the use of both images? or install disc 2 and use disc 1 only.

    I will probably use this feature as I only really play one game for months on end.

  • Darren #90 3 years ago

    One of the things I was concerned about when playing games from the HDD was whether auto-booting from the DVD would play the game from the disc itself rather than the HDD. I mean I was installing the games to the HDD then selecting the Play from HDD option on the dashboard. Needless to say, I've found that they *do* load from the HDD after all, as they should do, the NXE must check to see if the game data is on the HDD then load that instead of the DVD data.

  • Rash' #91 3 years ago

    MasterNameless, LOL! Looks like I predicted your post!

  • TILT #92 3 years ago

    I'm not a native speaker, and don't even own an X360, but isn't "reducing the volume of your Xbox 360" somewhat hilarious?

  • Rash' #93 3 years ago

    What's most interesting about that list is how many games are pushing to the limts of DVD capacity.

  • alasdairm #94 3 years ago

    Any idea if backwards compatible Xbox games can be installed ?

    Also, I'm guessing that you can't install individual games off the Xbox Live Arcade compilation DVDs - it annoys me that i've got to put the DVD in to play one game off the DVD when I've already downloaded that others off Live

  • MasterNameless #95 3 years ago

    "MasterNameless, LOL! Looks like I predicted your post!"

    Yeah yeah, I meant to fix a typo, but deleted by accident :/ Editted and added a bit now ;)

  • snafu65 #96 3 years ago

    Thats all well and good, but the fact you still have insert the game disc makes the whole excercise pointless.

  • MasterNameless #97 3 years ago

    "Any idea if backwards compatible Xbox games can be installed ? "

    Good question.

  • ryohazuki1983 #98 3 years ago

    "Thats all well and good, but the fact you still have insert the game disc makes the whole excercise pointless. "

    Reduce noise, extend the life of dvd-drive and slightly faster loading times. Get it?

    If game discs weren't verified then it would mean a lot of people would buy games and take them back. MS is not that stupid!
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:05

  • Rash' #99 3 years ago

    snafu65: Well no. The "volume of your Xbox 360" is reduced and the drive isn't used as much. Seems like necessary software solution to a hardware problem.

  • mattigan #100 3 years ago

    No Rash that's not what I'm saying, think about it for a second while you ride the ROFLcopter round your bedroom. A lot of these games use cut scenes to hide loading times that are known due to disk read times being a known constant and so are HARD CODED like the Mass Effect Elevators. If developers know BEFORE they release the game that there is a possibility that the game is running off the HDD then they might, oh I don't know, put a 'skip' option in, which they couldn't do before as the next area wouldn't have loadded off the DVD yet.

    It's not rocket science, just a bit of applied common sense (a resource that seems to be in short supply around here)

  • Petulant_Radish #101 3 years ago

    Rash, normally the word ‘optional’ determines how optional something is…

  • Darren #102 3 years ago

    @MasterNameless - No, Xbox 1 games cannot be installed to the HDD.

    So it is official then... according to KingsXKing list of HDD install sizes, Gears of War 2 *is* a bigger game than the first. I was curious about that...

  • butler` #103 3 years ago

    The noise aspect is the most important to me, the minor increase in loading times is the cream on the cake.

    The fact that you have to put the disc in kind of makes the whole thing a little laughable though, but to get round that they'd need to do cdkey systems etc. and then we'd just have a bad PC. Which we already kinda do. Ergh.

  • Rash' #104 3 years ago

    mattigan: Yeah but will that skip feature be optional... ;o)

    (It's a rhetorical question)

  • bicky316 #105 3 years ago

    Sounds like a no-brainer if you've got a 120GB HDD.

    \checks 120GB HDD price

    Oh ffs :-(

  • Rash' #106 3 years ago

    Petulant_Radish: Will you be using it? And why? I'm just saying it's debatable, that's all. Don't have to agree with me, but seems to me that the feature's main propose is to protect the hardware from shoddy design. If that's the option then is there really a choice?
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:11

  • MasterNameless #107 3 years ago

    @Darren

    Cheers, although it was someone else's question originally, they got their answer too :) Even though I don;t really play original Xbox games much anymore, and if I do it would be on such a rare occassion it wouldn't warrant an install anyway. Although, you can already download Xbox originals to the HDD, and I presume that they are just disc images too, so I reckon there's a good chance this is a feature that MS will add later.

  • Widge #108 3 years ago

    Also if your reason for installing is to avoid noise, then it becomes less optional and more necessity.

    Still, thats a good 19 or so games you can cram on? If you don't bother with demos and media then you can surely get through a couple of years without ever having to manage your HDD if you have the 120GB.

  • Petulant_Radish #109 3 years ago

    @ Rash,

    No I won’t be using it, loading times do not bother me to the extent that I would go out and pay for a larger HDD to save myself 10 seconds when playing a game, and my 360 isn’t loud at all. Sure it makes some noise, but when playing games I don’t even notice it. So now do you understand why it is optional?

  • Darren #110 3 years ago

    @butler` - To play most PC games legally you need to have the DVD in the drive so the system the Xbox 360 uses is no different really. Some PC games do allow you to play without the disc though but they are few and far between. You can, of course, use NoDVD hacks but they aren't sanctioned by the publishers (obviously).

  • mazzl #111 3 years ago

    @Rash' that the xbox has shoddy design in the dvd drive noise generating department is a well know fact, not a novelty fact.
    the point is, that if you don't mind the noise or only play games with the volume way up. you don't have to bother.
    so the install isn't mandatory, i'ts just a fact of life that a dvd drive running on 12x makes "some" noise.

  • Rash' #112 3 years ago

    Petulant_Radish, Yes I understand. It's an optional risk. ;o)

    mazzl: And yet you neglect the "well known" failure rates of the drive. Hey it's no skin of my nose. We all know the reason for the feature and this article (regardless of my complaints with it) highlights it.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:25

  • Widge #113 3 years ago

    BOLLOCKS TO ALL OF THIS. I'm going back to my SNES.

  • morriss #114 3 years ago

    60Gb?

  • lennon #115 3 years ago

    I cant see the point in all this worry about minimal decreases in loading times. Quite clearly this is an attempt to reduce the main 2 complaints about the 360. MS should be given a pat on the back for making this available IMO.

  • Petulant_Radish #116 3 years ago

    Hmm, well from what I understand Rash you just want to make it sound like its mandatory when it is clearly not. Some people can choose to install games if they fear for their hardware, and others, such as myself, can happily go on with their usual ways.

    I am on my second 360, the first was an instantaneous return from Game as it was still within their warranty, and now this one has been going (fairly quietly) without even one crash since early 2006, so I have no fears for my hardware.

    Why is it you’re so determined to make it something it is not?

  • Rash' #117 3 years ago

    Petulant_Radish, I won't be expecting a personal mail from you informing of you next failure. ;o)

    Like I said no skin of my nose. Whatever makes you happy with your purchase. I'm just pointing out the obvious.
    Edited by 2 at 11/11/08 @ 13:32

  • MasterNameless #118 3 years ago

    @Rash'

    Those failure rates are for the original SKU's though, no? As far as I knew the Falcon and Jasper chipsets have been more reliable anyway.

    edit: The Falcon chipset anyway, the Jasper ones haven't been around for long enough... hmm, maybe the falcon ones haven't either. Why are you here anyway, as a PS3 owner, this article can't be that intersting to you? lol
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:34

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #119 3 years ago

    @Doehead
    Any comments though on why (for me) Crackdown takes about a minute from the title screen appearing and it checking for DLC before I can actually interact with the menus.

    I didn't write that bit, but mostly the pauses in the login sequence are waiting for various OS built-in things to be done. Some of it is communicating with Xbox Live, and some of it is doing DRM decryption and stuff on the DLC.

  • Rash' #120 3 years ago

    TwoOneThree. Ahh! You caught me! ;o)

  • Rash' #121 3 years ago

    MasterNameless, Not in my experience. My friend picked up an Elite earlier this year. Loud as fuck and RROD on him to boot. Not much has changed in my experience with 360. Great games, shoddy hardware.

    FYI. The friend reluctantly ditched the 360 and got himself a PS3.

  • Prehensile_Plant #122 3 years ago

    Nice article, but I'm curious about Lost odyssey. Obviously it won't all fit on a 20 GB hard disc, but will it let you install one disc at once?

  • canIdoyabombsforya #123 3 years ago

    "It would have been interesting (in a really geeky way) to include the time of install too.

    That way you could figure out how many times you'd have to play a game (or how many loading scenes you'd have to see) in order to be saving time. "

    You mean you play games 24x7 and don't eat, drink or shit ? I installed Fable II then went and made a cuppa.



  • Petulant_Radish #124 3 years ago

    What makes me happy with my purchase is playing games on it, not chatting jive with you about the meaning of the word optional.

    This:

    “I won't be expecting a personal mail from you informing of you next failure”

    Makes absolutely no sense what so ever, you may need to go back and use the old editing brush on it dear boy. Plus your insistence on posting in here about the 360 and it’s failings seems to infer that it is indeed some skin of your nose. Go get some rhinoplasty!
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:40

  • Rash' #125 3 years ago

    Off to get a rhinoplasty...

  • tjlazr #126 3 years ago

    I nearly killed my box for the third time installing GoW2 last night. The machine froze at 4% install complete so eventually after failing to cancel the process I pulled the plug, only to be greeted by the three rings of fear upon starting the machine up again. I managed to coax it back to life after removing the hard drive but hopefully this isn't indicative of the future of game installs. I like the quiet play with the hard drive but I might stick to dvds to avoid any more warranty fun given this article!

  • Rash' #127 3 years ago

    MasterNameless, I'm here because I'm a gamer and at some stage I'll get a 360. It's just infuriating that such a great catalog of games are hampered by such a poorly put together console.

  • Rash' #128 3 years ago

    trebell, Well he bought it earlier this year so how much newer does it have to be? The falcons were out last year. Oh, the denial in this thread...
    Edited by 2 at 11/11/08 @ 13:47

  • peterfll #129 3 years ago

    DVD Drive realibility - has it improved much in the past few years? Looks at how many PS2's people went through thanks to their drives burning out. Good example of a product being thrashed at mass-market volumes. God knows, the 360 doesn't need another reason to die of hardware failure so I for one we be taking up the install option (albeit I'm lucky to have a new Elite with the HDD space to do it).

  • XdarXideX #130 3 years ago

    Rash' - Are you one of those kids who frequent PS3 forums and only post on others to screw with people? What a fitting name you have.

  • ps3owner #131 3 years ago

    @muscleblade what about custom HDD's or just MS HDD's ? + don't you want your turbine to be quite? I suppose not ;)

    yeah, it's annoying to have mandatory installs all the time. but I don't mind to be honest. It's not like i have to uninstall anything. 500GB internal disk is enough space to fit all the games ;)

  • PlushGraffiti #132 3 years ago

    Fascinating read, thanks EG!

  • DrDamn #133 3 years ago

    Noise reduction is a big plus - I'd like to see something done about having to put the disc in too for verification. Like it only checking randomly and when it does flag up a check it won't work until you do put the disc in. There has to be some sensible way to do it.

  • Rash' #134 3 years ago

    trebell, It doesn't bother me whether you believe me. You're the one that came here trying to correct and inform me.

  • MasterNameless #135 3 years ago

    @Rash'

    That sounds like pretty bad luck. I also have a PS3 though, as were a couple of games that I just couldn't ignore - MGS4 and LittleBigPlanet :) - but my 360 stills gets 90% of my attention, so when my launch model finally kicked the bucket again, I admit, I fixed it and traded it in for a newer SKU, 60gb Jasper I think, which I hope will be more reliable.

    Either way though, it's only a few weeks to repair if it does break, and an awful lot of enjoyment for a long time in between! People that really make a huge issue out of this are clutching at straws and don't like games as much as they think they do.

    edit: Sorry, this is almost verging off-topic with my response to Rash'. Thinking about it though, the failure rates of the Jasper and Falcon chipset's will never be accurate now anyway as NXE will make comparisons to the launch models invalid. There, back on topic :)
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:58

  • samk #136 3 years ago

    I'll certainly be using this installing to HDD feature. I've already had two DVD drives go tits up on my 360 - the less hammering the DVD drive takes, the better.

  • kangarootoo #137 3 years ago

    @Darren

    "You're forgetting that installing games to the HDD actually increases wear and tear on that rather than the 360 so HDD failure is actually more likely. An HDD still has moving parts like a DVD drive."

    That isn't really an issue. Hard drives are designed to run all day and all night, and the failure rate is beyond tiny. The key difference between a DVD and an HDD (and the reason why DVD drives in consoles are always so bloody flaky) is that the HDD is a sealed unit. All sorts of dusty crap is floating into your DVD drive day in and day out, whereas nothing gets into your HDD.

    As a general rule I think it is safe to say that trying to avoid an increase in wear and tear should never be a reason to change your HDD usage habits. The odds are just too long to be bothered with.

    That said.... the only data that you shouldn't back up is data you can afford to lose. That is a golden rule. Althought lets face it, pretty much all game related data is data we can afford to lose.

  • Rash' #138 3 years ago

    MasterNameless, Maybe they like spending their money on games rather than repairs...
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 13:55

  • XdarXideX #139 3 years ago

    Rash' - And you're the one who came here to bait people and turn this into another PS3 vs 360 thread because you're an idiot. I've had 3 360 break downs including one of the newer elites and I'd still take that over a PS3. I owned one for 2 weeks and sold it on.

    Do you need any more comments like that or are you satisfied now? Don't you have some form of homework to do or something?

  • Rash' #140 3 years ago

    XdarXideX: 3 breakdowns! I'm sorry but that's beyond a joke. (though I admit I did chuckle when I read that)

  • kangarootoo #141 3 years ago

    "normally the word ‘optional’ determines how optional something is… "

    Great line.


    "seems to me that the feature's main propose is to protect the hardware from shoddy design"

    Maybe I've missed a bit of the discussion, but where on earth did that idea come from? DVD drives have slower access speeds than HDDs. So reading from an HDD instead of a DVD will improve on retrieval times. That isn't because of shoddy design, its a factor of the lower tolerances inherrant in a non-sealed unit. And MS invented neither the DVD drive, not the HDD. Where did this idea of covering shoddy design come from?

  • peterfll #142 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Interesting points re: HDD vs DVD. I'm working from home today as my Sky HD box is being swapped out. The 3rd one in a month, due to HDD failures. I don't know whether it's the physical technology or the software, but these damn Sky boxes have a real short shelf life!

  • Raz76 #143 3 years ago

    About Mass Effect: The texture pop-in issue is really affected by the state of your dvd drive. I've seen a friend play it on his machine, and it wasn't a very big problem on there. On mine it has been really bad, so much that the pop-in was really intrusive, and sometimes textures would barely load at all. After installing it to the hdd it has really been massively improved. It's not totally gone but it pops in a lot quicker and in many places the problem is totally eliminated.

  • XdarXideX #144 3 years ago

    Rash' - Obviously not satisfied then. Do you have a job or anything? Seriously there must be something else for you to do than this.

  • Petulant_Radish #145 3 years ago

    "MasterNameless, Maybe they like spending their money on games rather than repairs... "

    Its comments like this that make you sound like someone who is just trying to make arguments out of nothing. Why would people be paying for repairs when Microsoft do it for free? You claim do be a gamer and yet you’re ragging on a games console at every opportunity, merely bringing up the hardware issues is a bit weak, as they are well documented and not as much of an issue anymore. From all your own reasoning you will never buy a 360, so why bother arguing about one?

  • MasterNameless #146 3 years ago

    @Petulant_Radish

    +1

    I was entertaining his arguments for a while. After that comment though, I see it's not even worth correcting him, let alone bothering to continue!

  • ryohazuki1983 #147 3 years ago

    Bloody hell Rash', have you not got a life? you've posted way too many times in this 360 thread when your clearly a troll.

    Some people prefer ps3, others like 360 etc, big deal, both consoles have pros and cons.

    This article was about a new feature within NXE, no need to tell us stories about "my mate had xbox, sold it" etc.

    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 14:08

  • Rash' #148 3 years ago

    Petulant_Radish, True, though only RROD is covered on 3 year warranty right? why? shoddy design. And we all know about the towel trick right? why? because the system is notorious of failure outside of RROD.

  • rotmm #149 3 years ago

    My mate had a PS3, played it on a big screen TV, hated the jaggies, sold it and bought a sex doll.

    Honest.

  • Bulbatron #150 3 years ago

    So is installing games to HDD also a risk? I'd rather lose the DVD drive than the HDD, since some gamesaves don't seem to be transferrable to memory units. Original Xbox saves definitely not transferrable to memory unit.

    I was curious to hear that Original Xbox games cannot be installed to the HDD. I'm sure I saw a video somewhere in which it said that they could be installed. It might even have been an Inside Xbox video - I can't remember now. Grr! And it seems odd to me that it would not be possible to install them, when games released on the Marketplace in the Xbox Originals section actually have to be installed.

    But going back to installing games. I wonder if developers will now take into account the HDD when making games a lot more. It would be good if they did, as long as installation never becomes mandatory.

    As for which games I might install, I can see myself installing Mass Effect, Fable II and The Orange Box. I wonder if Bully would run any better. That has quite a few loading screens.

  • Rash' #151 3 years ago

    Look the only reason I've gone on is because there are those on here that have pulled me up on my pretty clear suggestions.

  • rotmm #152 3 years ago

    @Rash'

    Ah, so that must be the reason Sony only offer a one year warranty on any and all PS3 failures.

    It must be because they know of shoddy design decisions.

  • Rash' #153 3 years ago

    ^^^Here's a fine example of what I mean.^^^

  • kangarootoo #154 3 years ago

    Another +1 for Petulant_Radish for expert ownage.


    @peterfll

    Something sounds really wrong in the case of your Sky HD box. Manufacturers tend to state their failure rate is less than 0.9%. It might be a bit higher in practice, but not much higher under normal conditions (you don't keep your Sky HD box up against the radiator do you? :) ).

    Sky will be swapping failed drives out with reconditioned replacements rather than new units, so I might guess at something being up with their reconditioning process. Except that Sky won't do it themselves, they will just contract out to a company that specialises in that kind of thing, and its not exactly new science.

    I suppose it could be a software issue, but you expect the unit to be capable of reformatting a drive from scratch should the file system get buggered up. I have something hopping about at the back of my mind about a similar case though, where a friend of mine had a Sky HD box and the drive suffered filesystem problems, and the unit itself couldn't recover it (which I commented on at the time as seeming absurd).

    It is also possible (I believe; its not really my area) that badly written software could be performing excessive read/write operations on the same part of the drive, in some way that could be deemed outside the boundaries of proper use (I bet Mentalist(air) could say something rather more informed on the subject).

    You could just be very unlucky of course, but that is unlikely (as the name implies).


    @Bulbatron

    "So is installing games to HDD also a risk? I'd rather lose the DVD drive than the HDD, since some gamesaves don't seem to be transferrable to memory units."

    It really shouldn't be. That is not to say that HDDs never fail, but the sort of increased usage we are talking about needs to be viewed in a larger context. Every London bank has walls of HDDs, literally hundreds and hundreds, and they never stop turning from the day they are installed to the day they are routinely replaced.

    Another thought on the matter (though I don't know enough about the tech to really comment with certainty). The hardest part of an HDDs day is spinning up and spinning down. Given that your drive ALWAYS spins up when you turn on your 360, and ALWAYS spins down when it stops, the hardest work is already being carried out whether you run a game from disk or not.

  • Miths #155 3 years ago

    "Eurogamer has never been a massive fan of the mandatory installations required on many PlayStation 3 releases. It has a fundamental impact on the 'plug and play' nature of console gaming, especially when you can be sitting about for up to 25 minutes waiting to play your brand new release."

    25 minutes? Aren't we exaggerating just a tiny bit here? I think I've played around 10-15 PS3 titles with mandatory installs and while I didn't actually start my stop watch, I'm pretty damn sure none of them came even remotely close to 25 minutes - more like between five and ten minutes, possibly twelve in one or two cases (and I actually doubt that).

    Anyway, this new hard disk install feature might just convince me to start using my 360 again on occasion - not for the faster loading times but rather because I can get rid of the infernal drive noise. It's just a shame the 120 GB drive is so over priced (just did a quick price check in Danish online stores, around twice what I paid for the 250 GB drive I put in my PS3) that it might just keep me doing it after all - although if I can live with only playing one, possibly two games at a time (more often than not I shuffle at least four or five though), there might just be room enough on my 20 GB drive (around 10 GB left last time I checked, after I deleted Jade Empire).

  • rotmm #156 3 years ago

    @Rash,

    Do you dispute the logic of that?

  • darkphoenix #157 3 years ago

    I tested "Mass Effect" yesterday and my results are far better than the ones presented here...

    Normandy Quarters - 5,6 seconds
    Continue savegame - 6 to 9 seconds ( depends if the save is on a world map or inside an area )

    Also, the textures load in 4,5 seconds and there are no more issues from there.
    Never saw any pop-in either.

  • Rash' #158 3 years ago

    It doesn't bother me if people here want to get personal or assume I'm a fanboy. I'll say my piece when I think corporate propaganda masks company failings. I had hope there would be few that saw where I was coming from but what a surprise peoples brains are apparently run by their wallets.

  • rotmm #159 3 years ago

    "...but what a surprise peoples brains are apparently run by their wallets.."

    What does that comment even mean?

  • Mr_Brown #160 3 years ago

    Cool, I already have a 120gb Hardisk!

    Elite FTW!

  • Darren #161 3 years ago

    @Rash' - Whatever the real reasons for Microsoft adding HDD installs to the Xbox 360, you cannot overlook the fact that they are entirely *optional* and the update required to use this feature will be completely *FREE* to anyone with an Xbox 360 from the 19th of this month. I cannot understand why anyone would see anything remotely negative or suspicious about including this feature at all. :?

    As much as I love my PS3 and its games, I find mandatory HDD installs worrying and they are the sole reason I upgraded to a 320 GB HDD in the first place. Had these installs being 100% optional then I wouldn't be concerned at all. I think it's fantastic that Microsoft are offering this feature to Xbox 360 owners... at last I have a genuine use for my 120 GB HDD. :)

  • ryohazuki1983 #162 3 years ago

    Well said darren, as usual your one of the few on here that speaks any sense!

  • mazzl #163 3 years ago

    @Rash' true. that's why the xbox is cheaper and warranty free :p
    but seriously dude. just stop poluting this threat, if you don't have anything to contribute.
    you're just jelious you're ps3 doesn't have fable2 :p

    i personnaly would NEVER buy a PS3, that's just beceause i hate sony, that's not beceause of the ps3 but i had some of there other products and they broke constantly, besides that i don't like the [] controller

    also, after this post i'll probably put you on ignore, just to surpress my own childish cravings to keep commenting on you're repeating record

  • Rash' #164 3 years ago

    Darren, I'm frankly fed up. I agree mandatory installs are a worrying trend and need to be done away with. I also agree that it's fantastic that this new NXE feature is being offered to 360 owners, I didn't say that before. I stand by my original statement that the feature is a software solution to a hardware problem (that's why it's fantastic for existing 360 onwers). I'll say no more because, as I said I'm fed up. Thanks for being more understanding than others here.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 14:52

  • dr.glyndwr #165 3 years ago

    Bravo, Eurogamer and Richard Leadbetter! This is a cracking piece of journalism: thorough and informative. Well done.

  • BillyBrush #166 3 years ago

    for fucks sake stop droning on...i'm still on a launch 360...many other people are, so listening to people whinge all day that don't even own one is ridiculous and annoying

  • kangarootoo #167 3 years ago

    @Rash'

    I'm stilla bit lost here. What is the hardware problem as you see it? I am genuinely interested, and I'll leave you be if you answer :)


    "The 360 is still a piece of unreliable cheap shit. lol."

    When I read that I just pictured a gibbering 12 year old at a keyboard. Then I saw the "lol" at the end, and knocked 2 years of the age estimate.

  • kangarootoo #168 3 years ago

    "The hardware is still unreliable even after 3 years (wtf). Just look at any forums such as NTSC UK, RLLMUK, NeoGaf, 1UP, etc. Gamers WHO RANT ON THE INTERNET are still having problems with the hardware."

    Fixed.

    I'm not saying the 360 is bullet proof these days. Clearly it isn't. But the HW failure rates we were seeing 2 years ago (me included; I'm on my 4th) are gone now. Its still a bit noisy, and the DVD drive is probably going to die sometime in the next 3 years, but its ok as games consoles go. Most people with 360s as of today use them frequently with no major complaints.

    A bit of context people.

  • Daymare #169 3 years ago

    "the feature is a software solution to a hardware problem"

    If anything, PS3 mandatory installs are a software solution to a hardware problem (slow Blu-ray read speed) but you probably don't complain about that, do you Rash'?

  • rotmm #170 3 years ago

    "smoke machine"

    Hahaha.lolol.classic humour.lol

  • peterfll #171 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    I have a lot of Sky box experience under my belt. I was an early adopter of Sky+ when it first came out. It basically boils down to this; after a "period" of time, the HDD capability on the machine starts to fail. Recordings fail to record. Playback starts to become corrupted. There are two housekeeping functions enabling you to reformat the hard drive, soft and hard. This starves off the problems for a while, but ultimately you end up succumbing. You reach a point whereby the box is no longer fit for purpose. The other problem is the OS. The OS cannot handle hardware failures of any sort (so it seems). It crashes on you, forces a cold reboot in lots of situations. It gives you no diagnostics. I'm not lying when I say over the period of 7 years I went through 6 Sky+ boxes in this manner. When I upgraded to HD in May 2006 I noticed the OS was the same in this respect. Within a year the HDD issues started. The original box went on to last me until October 2008, so 2.5 years. TBH I should have got it replaced in the summer as it was giving me problems in late spring. So I get a "new" reconditioned HD box from Sky two weeks ago. It failed on Sunday with a screeching HDD and crashed whenever it tried to access the HDD. So another one turned up today - 3 HD boxes now in 2.5 years. I know lots of people with Sky boxes and it would seem I'm unlucky, but most people still seem to experience a shelf life of 2 - 3 years per box.

    Steering this back on to topic though............ I understand the arguments over 360 reliability. My launch machine RRoD'ed on me in September. I would be very annoyed if my new Elite goes the same way any time soon.

  • Petulant_Radish #172 3 years ago

    “Just look at any forums such as NTSC UK, RLLMUK, NeoGaf, 1UP, etc. Gamers are still having problems with the hardware.”

    Yes, but you’d hardly create a thread saying “Day 321: Hey, what do you know, my 360 is still running” as that’d be nothing to whinge about and insanely boring to boot. I’m sure if you look around you’ll find people moaning about PS3 issues somewhere as well.

    And Rash, your overly repeated mantra of a “software solution to a hardware problem” doesn’t really cut the mustard, as not everyone is going to use it, again this implies optional. Should Microsoft had seen it as a fix, they would have enforced it on everyone, wouldn’t they?

    I’d also like to back up the question of what this meant:

    "...but what a surprise peoples brains are apparently run by their wallets.."

    I’m not sure you replied to that, forgive me if you did, but that doesn’t seem to make much sense…

  • Rash' #173 3 years ago

    Petulant_Radish, Look we're not going to agree on this so fuck off. I tried to be nice before but you all ganged up on me. No more. I've said my piece. You can take it or leave, but don't insult me any more by pretending to want to understand, because you don't. You're just looking for any holes in my argument, however small, to discredit my point and feel big about yourself. I'm done.

  • merkdot #174 3 years ago

    my dad could beat your dad up

  • Petulant_Radish #175 3 years ago

    No need to swear old boy, if you felt I’d boxed you into a corner I apologise, that was not my intention. Though your point about picking holes in your argument is a little strange, isn’t that the idea of a debate? Isn’t that exactly what you were attempting to do to mine?

    Don’t you think it’s all a bit silly getting so pent up over a games console? Or will I get lynched for saying that, considering where I am…

  • Rash' #176 3 years ago

    merkdot, Yeah well my dad's got a better car than your dad.

  • Rash' #177 3 years ago

    Petulant_Radish, No the point of a debate is to understand each others point. Clearly that is a concept alien to you.

    The irony. Your advicing me to cool down when your the one that's be badgering on about the topic.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 15:46

  • Petulant_Radish #178 3 years ago

    Ahem:

    Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
    de⋅bate   /dɪˈbeɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-beyt] Show IPA Pronunciation
    noun, verb, -bat⋅ed, -bat⋅ing.
    –noun 1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
    2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

  • neil_likes_bums #179 3 years ago

    Zero_Cool needs a girlfriend

  • Petulant_Radish #180 3 years ago

    Oh and I didn’t advise you to cool down, I said don’t you think you’re being a little bit silly. You’re the one that has suddenly gone on an offensive, I don’t think at any point I have conveyed any sense of personal attack against your persona, and yet you have taken umbrage with me?

    Also, I’d just like to point out that my dictionary quote has something about the senate and farm supports in it, I’m not sure why…I suppose it was used as an example, but a very strange one…

  • rotmm #181 3 years ago

    @Rash, "No the point of a debate is to understand each others point. Clearly that is a concept alien to you."

    Cool. Could you please point out where, in this comment section, you have shown understanding of points made by others.

    Thanks.

  • yegon #182 3 years ago

    Nice feature, looking forward to it as I've got a 120gb drive.

    I'd be surprised if it has any effect on Fallout 3 as the loading in that, after the initial boot, is VERY swift, for which Bethesda should be applauded. If Oblivion's load times were long, they were NOTHING compared with Xbox Morrowind. My god, that was true go-off-and-make-a-cuppa stuff. Could argue it improved the game in a bizarre way as it gave you a massive incentive not to die!

  • SlackMaster #183 3 years ago

    I hope there is some improvement in speed when bringing up the dashboard interface in games. If you wanted to check on friend online or reply to messages during a game, bringing up the blades was so slow.

  • hahayou #184 3 years ago

    You could test your theories about data already being cached by removing the HD and running the DVD tests again.

  • XdarXideX #185 3 years ago

    Wait... Rash had a point? That's news to me. I thought he was just spouting bullshit and making an issue out of nothing.. but if he says he has a point then I guess he has one. O_o

  • Gaol #186 3 years ago

    Fantastic. The 360 can now play games with sound that isn't drowned out by the ludicrous vacuum noise of the disc drive.

    All it costs to you is an overpriced £100 hard disk, to go along with your overpriced online gaming, overpriced wifi bridge and overpriced accessories.

    Still, by this time you probably need a whole brand new Elite given the shady atrocious hardware you've already bought into is on it's last legs.

    Almost pathetic to EG back off from slagging off installs. Having witnessed the noise of Fable in a 360 first hand, let their be no doubt that all these installs are pretty much mandatory. And even then it's still nosier than my PC.

    Media centre my arse. Please for the love of God let this shitty hardware die out so we can get developers back on decent platforms.

    Enjoy your 2xAA, lol.

  • Thunderbolt #187 3 years ago

    Gaol,

    The time for wind-up is over my friend, you are too late.

    You're not clever or funny just a bit sad really

  • Ryze #188 3 years ago

    @peterfll

    SKy HD boxes use Maxtor hard drives.

    Maxtor hard drives are shite in comparison to Western Digital, for example.

  • Ryze #189 3 years ago

    Rash' is a fanboy tosser prick.

    Best ignored.

  • yegon #190 3 years ago

    Hmm, had a Sky+ 160 box since they came out years ago, never had to replace mine.

  • captainrentboy #191 3 years ago

    Gaol has a point, fooking hell I'm going to get rid of my 360, pronto...
    Todger.

  • RazorObsession #192 3 years ago

    I'm all for optional installs to make games load or run faster and in the 360's case, much quieter. Almost every 360 owner either owns or plans to own a hard drive. this will only encourage more people to pick one up.

    I cant shake the feeling however, that this could possibly be a Trojan horse, for mandatory installs in the future, or in extreme cases, having games come on two DVD's a la PC's of yesteryear.

    One disc reading PLAY, and the other INSTALL...

    /shudders at dark prophecy

  • Ryze #193 3 years ago

    @peterfll

    Re your several Sky Boxes

    Try a filtered powersupply, and make sure that your electronics are situated away from sources of heat and dust.

    But yes, Maxtor HDDs are shite.

  • Gaol #194 3 years ago

    I ain't winding anyone up. The 360 really is that shit. I didn't realize quite how shit till I bought and sold one in the same week.

    The reason you all get antsy is deep down you know it's utter guff which is why you spend time posting here, instead of playing it longer than 3 minutes and risking hardware failure. Such is the power of self-justification after a purchase, especially when it's 10 year olds with no option to buy a second machine.

  • mrpon #195 3 years ago

    A few questions for the NXE-ers (Darren??), what happens mid-game if you eject the DVD? Can you still play from the DVD if you have installed the game to the HDD? How does the tray icon differ if you have the HD-DVD drive attached.

    Cheers.

  • lolife.se #196 3 years ago

    @Rash
    "Petulant_Radish, Look we're not going to agree on this so fuck off."

    Seriously, no, you fuck off. Stop pretending to be serious or having merit by spouting utterly nonsensical gibberish, it doesn't change the fact that the only thing you're doing here is trolling.

    And take your brat troll friend Zero_Cool with you. Oh, and don't forget all your imaginary other friends aswell...

  • darc #197 3 years ago

    Personally, I can't imagine the benefits outweighing the luxury of just not having to think about it. It would be a different story if you didn't need the disc in the drive for validation, but as it stands, I'm not going to bother worrying about disc space management, installations and deletions, and all that. I've got a PC for when I feel like being annoyed. :p

    The only exceptions I can think of would be cases where a game is outright NOTORIOUS (eg. Mass Effect elevators) and developers take the time to release patches that capitalize on NXE.

    Otherwise, I'll just pretend I never read this...

    P.S. Oh, and this might be cool for multi-disc releases, which might subsequently become more common.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 17:17

  • karstux #198 3 years ago

    Now someone needs to wire a SSD flash drive to the 360 and install a passive cooling solution - yielding a completely silent console, a first since they've moved away from cartridges. :)

  • darc #199 3 years ago

    "I ain't winding anyone up. The 360 really is that shit. I didn't realize quite how shit till I bought and sold one in the same week."

    LOL I envy the guy that capitalized on your decision. I've got 2 360's and love 'em both. (And I'm no fan boy, there are also several Sony and Nintendo products in the house.)
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 17:19

  • kangarootoo #200 3 years ago

    @Zero_Cool

    Ok, you are right. Insults are (should be) below me.

    But can't you make a constructive point? Or at least try and base your ill feeling in some kind of fact?

    Most 360s out there now are fine. RRODs were happening for a known reason, for which a technical solution has been put in place. There are a few old models out there hanging on, and maybe one day they will fail. But the current 360s being sold don't suffer the same issue.

    Yes despite all that you just wheel out a brief and muted "its still shit". And then make nonsensical reference to smoke. What kind of response might you expect anybody to give you if that is all you can summon from your mind? You are frankly insulting yourself with comments like that, well before anyone else joins in.

  • darc #201 3 years ago

    "Now someone needs to wire a SSD flash drive to the 360 and install a passive cooling solution - yielding a completely silent console, a first since they've moved away from cartridges. :) "

    I like where you're going. I'd look for the next generation consoles to based on this tech, with downloadable games exclusively (eg. no optical drive.) All moving parts stand still (a lesser known Black Sabbath song LOL.)

    Not sure GPUs w/ passive cooling will be a reality soon enough, though.

  • SmartMonkey #202 3 years ago

    How will the datel's Xsata Hard Disk accessory work in conjunction with NXE?

  • kangarootoo #203 3 years ago

    @Rash'

    I'm sorry you felt people were ganging up on you. Tbh I thought that Petulant Radish was being pretty constructive, if a little sharp, with you. But there were a bunch of other posters just calling you names, for fanboy reasons of their own, and that probably put things out of context.

    However, part of debate is to have holes picked in what you say. Telling everyone something, and having them pat you on the back for it is not debate. And if you are done with the discussion for whatever there are probably better ways to bow out than telling people to f*ck off.

    Anyway, I've patronised you quite enough for one day, so I'll zip it now. This thread has mostly gone a bit wrong anyway.

  • des #204 3 years ago

    We need PS3 vs 360(dvd,hdd) loading time comparison for multiplatform games.*




    *To get more comments

  • darc #205 3 years ago

    "The 360 is still a piece of unreliable cheap shit. lol."

    Well, of course it is. That's why MS can sell me one for $199 and sustain a business model. And I'm glad it's cheap. It's a video game. It's not mission-critical, I don't drive it to work, and if/when it fails, I don't sustain any serious injuries. It's an effective games platform (frame per frame and dollar for dollar much moreso than a PS3) and that's all it needs to be. A little perspective?

    Now if we were talking pacemakers, or scaffolds, or hell, even toilets, this might be an interesting point.

    My XBox failed last month. MS is fixing it. Big deal.

    (Also, the PS3 is REALLY nice - if a little pricey for my tastes. If you own one, AWESOME, enjoy it!)

  • mrpon #206 3 years ago

    @ darc - Loving your work! :)

  • captain-future #207 3 years ago

    finally installs on a console done right and finally NO MORE DVD-DRIVE NOIZE.

    thx.

  • XdarXideX #208 3 years ago

    Gaol sounds more like someone trying to convince themselves they made the right purchase than someone who genuinely has an informed opinion about the 360.

    I've used both consoles and I'll gladly pay £39.99 a year for the excellent xbox live service. PSN SHOULD be free, it's that half arsed. Who the hell decided that after downloading a demo, you should then have to install it?

  • butler` #209 3 years ago

    All it costs to you is an overpriced £100 hard disk, to go along with your overpriced online gaming, overpriced wifi bridge and overpriced accessories.

    - My 120gb HDD came with my elite, which cost me £nothing when I traded in my premium
    - Rather than dead ps3 online gaming, a whole 50p a week or so aint so bad for an undeniably superior product...
    - I use ethernet
    - Get what you pay for (see: 360 controller vs. PS3 controller, play and charge vs ps3 equivalent)

    hehe i can play this game too!
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 19:16

  • MistMeUK #210 3 years ago

    I think you need to remember that all of these games have been designed 100% to run from the disk and the disk only, that's how the programmers have gone about it, so much so that when the game requests something from the disk it expects it to be a specific amount of time so while loading from the disk the CPU will actually do something else instead of idly waiting by.

    Future game will take more advantage of the option to install as remember to the developer it wasn't even an option until now.

    I just think its abit unfair to comment on the HDD install by using games that where 100% not designed to use it.

    I bet if you do the comparison again this time next year using next years big game releases you will see a much bigger difference between DVD and HDD.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 19:18

  • man.the.king #211 3 years ago

    @ Rash and Petulant_Radish

    In the definition of a debate, I think PR is right. Debate seems to imply a polite argument, with ONE winner. I think what Rash was referring to was a discussion.
    Edited by 1 at 11/11/08 @ 19:49

  • bonker #212 3 years ago

    I haven't read all the comments yet but seriously EG, not measuring any decrease in noise levels with NXE is mind-boggling, it really is. I couldn't really give a toss about reduced loading times of a second here or a couple of seconds there but anything that reduces the horrific noise from my 360 is *very* worthwhile, especially for Fable II which practically has smoke bellowing from my DVD drive when I'm playing it ...

  • bonker #213 3 years ago

    "IGN Noise Test here "

    Thanks for that - anyone care to explain WTF those needles bouncing around meant in some quantifiable manner please?

  • bonker #214 3 years ago

    "I was curious as to why Crackdown didn't work (since I wrote a significant amount of Crackdown's streaming code, but am not still at RTW to hear anything from Microsoft on the issue). "

    My first thought on reading the Crackdown thing was that some dev couldn't read library doc's :)

  • bonker #215 3 years ago

    "What's most interesting about that list is how many games are pushing to the limts of DVD capacity. "

    Truly fascinating.

  • Dr_Spankenstein #216 3 years ago

    "I like the sound of a quiter 360 (but come on once you playing a game or watching a movie you dont really notice it)"

    Bollocks! I can't stand the noise of my 360 and can't wait to shut the damn thing up with HDD installs. Thanks Microsoft for providing us aurally-sensitive folk with this option.

  • banjo21 #217 3 years ago

    Agree with those that spotted this is a fantastic noise reduction idea - nowt to do with load times. do noise tests EG.

    Great one MS - fantastic free upgrade to the X360.

  • tonynibbles #218 3 years ago

    Great article. Geek out!

    How fast is the 360 drive?

    PS3's is 5200 by default, but you can put 7200, 10000 or SSD drives in there. I guess it'll always have that advantage.
    My 320Gb 7200 is bearing up well :)

  • darc #219 3 years ago

    "@ darc - Loving your work! :)"

    Thank you mrpon. Nice to get some positive feedback in between being called a wanker. :)

  • Darren #220 3 years ago

    mrpon - "A few questions for the NXE-ers (Darren??), what happens mid-game if you eject the DVD?

    The game resets back to the dashboard as it would if the game was running from the DVD.

    Can you still play from the DVD if you have installed the game to the HDD?

    There's little point in doing this to be honest unless you actually prefer the noise but I think you can. At least I thought I saw a Play from DVD option after I'd installed a game to the HDD... but I might have imagined it. I'll check later on and post back here.

    "How does the tray icon differ if you have the HD-DVD drive attached.

    I can't answer this as I don't own the HD-DVD. I'll let someone else answer that for you! :)

  • Eraserhead #221 3 years ago

    I couldn't really give a toss about reduced loading times of a second here or a couple of seconds there but anything that reduces the horrific noise from my 360 is *very* worthwhile, especially for Fable II which practically has smoke bellowing from my DVD drive when I'm playing it ...

    Abso-bloody-lutely. This is why I think the NXE (gnnnh!) is the most useful update ever for the 360. That and the reduced wear and tear on the drive itself... moving parts are so twentieth century.

  • Moz #222 3 years ago

    Obviousely this is just speculation but i would guess that some of the issues with pop-in in Mass effect are coursed by data compression rather then the read time. Not sure if this can be fixed by a patch but if it can be it would lead to longer installs as first NXE would stream the disk onto the hard drive, then when you want into the game it would have to run a secondary "install" that would expand the compressed files

  • El-Dev #223 3 years ago

    @ Darc, Ms can sell it for $199 and maintain a business model because they are MS. The last time I read they reported $500m profit for the 360 department, which didn't include the $1bn they had to lay off for extended warranties or the massive amounts they throw around for exclusivity periods or exclusive DLC.

    On the same note Sony can sustain PS3 losses because of the massive success of PS, PS2 and PSP.

    The best business model is the Wii, it's taken people years and buying one of them to realise that they are in fact shit.

  • JackB #224 3 years ago

    Less Noise.... Less Heat... Slightly faster load times...

    And it's optional.

    What's not to like?

  • Darren #225 3 years ago

    I find it amusing that people complain about Mass Effect's texture issues, which for me were only obvious at the start of some of the cutscenes and in no way annoying or intrusive in the slightest. What was intrusive for me was the ghastly screen tearing and horrid framerate with plummeted to single figures at times. Both could have done with further optimisation prior to release IMO.
    Edited by 1 at 12/11/08 @ 10:55

  • bad09 #226 3 years ago

    I dunno Darren those textures took an age to load in on ME and were bloody annoying, and I'm normally a person who doesn't care that much about a few graphical gliches! I've noticed Gears2 suffers from this same problem to on multiplayer, but not as annoying.

  • GordonCaladan #227 3 years ago

    Good job on comparing the noise in your dvd vs. hd face-off, which really is the core issue in most games.


    Oh snap.

  • Arwin #228 3 years ago

    I'm still really curious to see what the difference is between games on the Arcade without a HDD and 360s with a HDD. Right now I don't think anyone even reviews anything on the Arcade.

    For me the noise factor would be by far the biggest advantage as I sit 40cm from the 360, though hearing that Fable 2 runs better is something I might take advantage of in the future (I think I'll get it when it's on platinum). I only have a 20Gb also right now so I'll only have space for one game at a time anyway.

  • Xerx3s #229 3 years ago

    "Thanks for that - anyone care to explain WTF those needles bouncing around meant in some quantifiable manner please? "

    I haven't watched it today but iirc they represent the db measurement.

  • Xerx3s #230 3 years ago

    "I ain't winding anyone up. The 360 really is that shit. I didn't realize quite how shit till I bought and sold one in the same week.

    The reason you all get antsy is deep down you know it's utter guff which is why you spend time posting here, instead of playing it longer than 3 minutes and risking hardware failure. Such is the power of self-justification after a purchase, especially when it's 10 year olds with no option to buy a second machine."

    Goal, you can pretend to have owned one but the claim you made was pretty much ripped apart in your whine thread. So what does that leave us? You being so insecure about your precious ps3 that you have to make such claims to spread fud?

    Sad. Really sad.

    Oh and the second part of your argument brings a pot and kettle image to mind.

  • Xerx3s #231 3 years ago

    "How fast is the 360 drive? "

    5200.

    EDIT: but it features some sort of buffering system on top of the cache to minimise read/write times iirc.
    Edited by 1 at 12/11/08 @ 10:36

  • Darren #232 3 years ago

    You mean 5,400 rpm... if you're referring to the 360's HDD. It also has an 8 MB buffer I believe and is the same type of SATA HDD that laptops and the PS3 use.

  • Xerx3s #233 3 years ago

    Yeah 5400 obviously. Dunno if it's the default buffer. I seem to recall that they had an extra buffer between the system and the hdd. Could be mistaken though.

  • Rash' #234 3 years ago

    kangarootoo, You've been very patronizing over that course of the thread so forgive me if I'm a little abrasive, but when you use terms like ownage in reference to me I can't accept you're being sincere... for now however I'll humour you.

    I have a provocative nature about me. I like to provoke debate and discussion. Sometimes that's misconstrued. If you re-read the debate that occured between Petulant_Radish and I, you'll see that I conceded (though probably not in a manner PR would've have felt gratified with). Yes, technically it's an option (there, maybe that'll appease PR) but that's academic. It's an option for a minority of 360 owners while for a large pencentage this, as Darren points out, is a fantastic addition because it removes noise and makes less use of a suspect drive. I'm saying that many will use the feature because of the criticism already levelled at the hardware (some owners on this very thread have alluded that that's what they're looking forward to). I find that amusing chiefly because many 360 enthusiasts have bemoaned the use of mandatory installs on the PS3, and yet they are perfectly happy to install complete games to their HDD under the guise of choice.

    Now choice has been used as a corporate propaganda tool by MS before with the HD DVD add on that the company never fulling backed so yes I'm a little suspect of their actions. But as I like a good discussion (many thanks to man.the.king for the distinction between debate) please, I'm curious to hear what other obvious advantages there are of the feature that I have been ignorant of.
    Edited by 2 at 12/11/08 @ 11:48

  • GamerG #235 3 years ago

    Fantastic article, Fantastic feature!

    I'm only going to use this feature for RPG games like Mass effect & Fable 2 (Both 10/10 games BTW!) where I notice the noise more as they are quiet games. I have yet to play a shooter were the load times or noise has bothered me as I have the DD cranked up anyway!
    Edited by 1 at 12/11/08 @ 12:00

  • Rash' #236 3 years ago

    warzin, Fair enough. Are we are in agreement that it is a software solution to a hardware problem?

    Whether mandatory installs on PS3 is because of deficiences with the hardware or because many devs still haven't got round the particularities of the hardware is up for debate/discussion (one which I'm not well equipped to be concerned with). All I'll say on the matter is there are plenty of games on the system that demonstrate that the trend doesn't need to continue.

  • Xerx3s #237 3 years ago

    Not having read the rest of the thread:

    @Rash: Sorry but that's just bollocks. One is mandatory, the other is optional. It means that one you have to sit through an install due to hardware limitations while the other you can pretty much do as you fancy. You can spindoctor it all you want but those two things are fact.

    I've done the MGS4 installs and such. Seriously, how that can even be compared to this...

  • Petulant_Radish #238 3 years ago

    Nothing appeases me, I am far too stubborn! It's my way or the highway! Even if it is on a technicality, I was right, I'm always right! In My head at least anyway...lunch time....

  • GamerG #239 3 years ago

    Yer the PS3 installs are a joke, no question, it became a problem when every shitty title needs it.

    Say a friend comes over with a game and you have to sit there for 15mins waiting to try it out, or if you want a game online against buddies but have deleted the install to allow for other games and so on.

    Anyone who thinks that is acceptable for console gaming is simply wrong, the 360 interpretaion is phenominal I just hope that it does not become manditory as it is on PS3.


  • Rash' #240 3 years ago

    warzin, Well this year for content it's certainly a matter of taste which is better for the gamer? I know I'm having a ball with Littlebigplanet (I'm with Edge; it's a world-changing game) and that didn't need a mandatory install so again it's debatable why devs continue to employ this design.
    Edited by 1 at 12/11/08 @ 12:56

  • Rash' #241 3 years ago

    It's also a little presumptuous to assume all gamers want the same experiences. Just as many are indifferent to Littlebigplanet, there are those that aren't concerned with Gears2. It's also bold of you to conclude 360 is the "best" when this gen isn't even completed yet. Such a conclusion is better served on reflection.
    Edited by 1 at 12/11/08 @ 13:05

  • Darren #242 3 years ago

    @GamerG - Mandatory HDD installs will *never* happen on the 360 except for the odd exception *** so long as the Arcade/Core model exists and that doesn't have a HDD and memory units are not quite big enough to install 4-7 GB games onto... yet!

    *** = The exception, of course, being MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI which was actually the Xbox 360's first compulsory HDD installed game. Since then there hasn't been any that have required HDD installs, only a football management game or two I believe that required the use of an HDD for the large game saves.

    @Rash' - In an ideal world all console games would run off a disc and everyone would be happy with that. The addition of HDDs to console was first and foremost to benefit the games with improved caching of data and lots of storage space for game saves.

    Unfortunately Sony have taken this to its extreme on the PS3 and allowed mandatory HDD installs so that developers don't have to spend precious time and money optimising their games to run off the slower Blu-ray disc (BD). IMO they should have enforced optional installs only and allowed the games to still run off a BD even if it meant longer loading times.

    In that respect, Sony are advocating HDD installs to cover up the deficiencies of the BD drive far more than Microsoft are for the 360's noise level and reliabiliy issues since its HDD installs will *always* be optional. Microsoft's approach is commendable in the respect; they are offering users a *choice* something PS3 users don't have with every game. Hopefully, Sony will realise this and we'll see fewer and fewer mandatory installs on the PS3.

    The irony is that running games off the disc on the PS3 is quiet anyway so that is one less reason to even install them in the first place. Also games like Uncharted, LittleBigPlanet and MotorStorm: Pacific Rift prove that games can load fast from the BD without HDD installs, Sony just need to educate developers so that all games do. IMO, mandatory HDD installs should be a no, no on consoles but optional ones are fine.

  • Rash' #243 3 years ago

    Darren, I'm in complete agreement with you. If Sony's open policy to mandatory installs is there because of the higher costs and time required to understand how to work the hardware more efficiently, then it seems it is a policy of neccesity. Maybe as devs get to grips with the hardware that policy will change. I certainly hope so.

  • HyZepher #244 3 years ago

    haven't read the full thread sry...

    Can you run the game off the HDD without the disk in the drive?

  • MasterNameless #245 3 years ago

    @HyZepher

    No. From Microsoft's - and any developer's - point of view, that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

  • kangarootoo #246 3 years ago

    @Rash'

    I'd forgotten all about the ownage commnent. I meant it in a spirit of good humoured fun poking, but I know that sort of thing doesn't come across in text.

    I take your point about this feature solving the annoyingly loud operation of a 360 when the DVD drive is in use, but there is no standard unit of loud to which we can refer. The SNES was quieter than the PS3, which is quiter than the 360, which is quiter than a randy badger (err, I imagine). That most people would delight in being able to apply this feature and cut the volume of their 360 still does not make this anything other than optional. The mandatory install of many PS3 games is not optional, by way of the fact that it cannot be avoided or opted out of.

    And those mandatory PS3 installs are in place to get around the slow seek speed of Bluray. This is not shoddy design on the part of Bluray anymore than being noisy is shoddy design on the part of the 360. Its just "the way these things work" and they can only be measured on a subjective scale.

    "Now choice has been used as a corporate propaganda tool by MS"

    Choice is used as a propaganda tool by all corporations, just as a whole bunch of other tools are also used. We can't start blaming one company more than another, just becasue we can bring a common example to mind. The HD-DVD thing was about giving choice to the consumer. I wasn't interested in it, so I didn't buy one, and I'm pretty glad that MS didn't built an HD-DVD drive in as standard and charge me for it anyway.

    I'm not sure I quite understand your question about advantages you aren't aware of. There probably aren't any additional advantages, but that doesn't make the feature any more or less optional.


    "and that didn't need a mandatory install so again it's debatable why devs continue to employ this design. "

    I guess it comes down to the way each game works. Just because one game is able to keep load times down reading direct from Bluray doesn't mean another will have an equally easy time of achieving the same. Maybe there is a TRC requirement about load times, which makes it mandatory for some games.

    Personally, I would be completely in favour of optional installs for all PS3 games. Some games do it, so it is perhaps in the hands of the devs to give us the choice, but again there may be TRCs that indirectly take the choice out of their hands.


    And thanks for responding. I can be a bit of a cheeky twat at times, and I don't like to think I've driven anyone away that didn't deserve it.


    @HyZepher

    No, the disc has to be present. It has to be this way, or there would be a massive security hole left behind.

  • fshockz #247 3 years ago

    7 out of 10

  • mikeleddy83 #248 3 years ago

    Not sure it's been answered but morriss brought this up halfway into this thread, is there any word on whether the 60gb drive has the same load speeds as the 120gb. I'm thinking the 'cluttered and almost full' 20gb in the article would be faster if fresh (though possibly not as fast as the newer 120gb drives), so would the new xbox live 60gb starter pack include the best drive for the money? or is there actually an incentive to get a 120gb drive for more than twice the cost of the 60gb hdd with a headset, 3 months live and cables?

    sorry my post was so off-topic: I prefer the PS3 btw!
    Edited by 2 at 12/11/08 @ 20:13

  • Mr.Gordons #249 3 years ago

    cool, il just use it to spped up the load times and save some of my disk drives hit points... once my elite comes back, i never expected the RROD to happen to me... no one is safe.

  • bonker #250 3 years ago

    ""Thanks for that - anyone care to explain WTF those needles bouncing around meant in some quantifiable manner please? "

    I haven't watched it today but iirc they represent the db measurement. "

    That much I gathered lol - I'd like to know that it's on average 2/3 as noisy or something that's meaningful :)

  • darc #251 3 years ago

    @El-Dev - good points and I wouldn't argue any of it. I was being a little cheeky with regards to the pricing specifics; everybody knows an XBox sale is a loss-leader. But my point remains, that a video game really needn't be bullet proof, and no one would be well-served by it's being over-built and thusly costing twice as much. Granted the failure rate during the Xbox's 1st year was an outright debacle, but at this point, I'd say they've hit the mark. I've bought two now, and even having seen one fail I'd say it's a well spec'd, well-made product. I don't expect anything to never break, least of all a $200 computer.

    @Rash - one word, rentals. Crikey, I think of the pile of save games I get from running rentals, and imagine if every one of them had left an installation on my HDD. The option is relevant because I'll never install a game I don't totally adore. (And that means I'll install very few of them.)

    The word propaganda is really getting a workout suddenly. I'm not sure you can have "propaganda" for a feature you're actually delivering... I'm arguing semantics maybe... Just sounds weird. :/
    Edited by 2 at 12/11/08 @ 21:54

  • ronuds #252 3 years ago

    Can someone summarize what about MS we're saying is "evil" this time? Because they included an option to install a game to the HDD? Holy crap, talk about grasping at straws.

    And then to say the PS3 is better in this regard is some of the worst nonsense I've ever heard. Please, get a grip.

    LBP is "world changing"? OMG, please stop being so ridiculously arrogant. LBP is an awesome game - end of. My world hasn't changed a bit - and if a game is "world changing" that means everyone's world is changed...not just one or two peoples. I really don't think people who say this could appreciate just how stupid it sounds unless they were on the outside looking in.
    Edited by 2 at 12/11/08 @ 22:25

  • Ryze #253 3 years ago

    Rash proves himself time and time again to be a fucking cock, and there's no way in hell I'd be inclined to attempt rational debate with such an irrational arseface.

    I don't debate with stupid people.

  • markostyle78 #254 3 years ago

    New xbox experience release
    watch video from microsoft about it
    http://tu bedirects.net/index.php?q=xbox-...

  • Bremenacht #255 3 years ago

    Well, I tried TF2 from HDD today and noticed bugger-all difference, without actually counting the seconds. Still plenty of time to find the biscuits before you get to the menus.

    HL2 later - maybe that'll be noticable.

  • Bremenacht #256 3 years ago

    Big difference on HL2. Hooray.

    Does anyone have any reports on games other than those listed in this article? I'd be interested in hearing about Fallout3, and L4D when it's out.

  • IneptPercy #257 3 years ago

    Loaded update last night, deleted a few demos and then installed guitar hero world tour.

    It works, I am happy...

    What was the arguement again?

  • BonzoBanana #258 3 years ago

    I'm on a 20gig HD but just don't have the space to spare. I'd love to put Fallout 3 on the hd as I get disc errors intermittantly with it but its just not practical for me. My 360 is a 2006 P.O.S. but I never get any red rings just disc errors and occasional freezing. I love 360 games but the 360 itself is a piece of junk build quality wise. I like the new xbox experience but I just wish I didn't have to put up with the other xbox experience, terrible build quality and stability issues. However like many I have built in acceptance of poor stability with Microsoft products after years of dealing with their operating systems on pcs.

  • IneptPercy #259 3 years ago

    If you are getting crashes and disc read errors I would try a push it to red ring and get it sent off.

    I do believe microsoft have sorted the problems now, just a shame so many bad consoles got out first.

  • chronom4n #260 3 years ago

    one thing that i have noticed is that with the new update, on the subject of music being accessed from the hard drive, ithe time has come down from 11secs to 3-4 secs for accessing my music. big difference there.

  • Grayvern #261 3 years ago

    Actually its arguable the only reason the 360 doesant have mandatory installs is because of the Arcade becuase theryse still trying to flog the dead horse that is their foray into casual land. Not because microsoft believe in choice.

    Choice is the microsoft corporate ideology used to cover up the massive peripheral prices while sony push the do everything, and customizable with non sony brand components approach. It's corporate bull.

    Ive never realy understood the problem with mandatory installs on the PS3 three reasons all ps3's have reasonable hdd space, its not an iso so game installs can take up as much space as they need, or dont, thirdly I plan my time, and when I got MGS4 and GTA4 I played each for a good few hours, to me dipping into a game is pointless because I find that te shorter the play time the more tie you waste.

  • drewman5150 #262 3 years ago

    Fifa09 absolutely flies now - time spent in the arena before a game is minimal, subsitutions which (admittedly quicker than 08 from the DVD) "just work", all in all I'm loving it!
    And the noise?
    My launch 360 has gone below my August 08 model (with a DVD in), and pretty much as quiet as the PS3 sitting beside it (although I have to admit, through gritted teeth, that I do forget the damn thing is on!)
    Arcade pointless? Hardly, I'm lining up an Arcade for my daughter - she won't be using Live, she'll just be (would you believe it) playing games...revolutionary? Nah, it's a fricking games console, that's what they do.

    In answer to an earlier question, the HD-DVD option is in My Xbox - you get a separate icon for "Open HD-DVD"
    Edited by 1 at 23/11/08 @ 23:39

  • YourMessageHere #263 3 years ago

    I refuse to read this many comments, so I expect 68 people have already said this, but I can't bear this attitude. All this whining about how it takes OMG 25 minutes or so to install a game! and how it takes ZOMFG over a minute to load some games! is both ignorant and pathetic. Fucks sake. Technology may have improved but data can only be read so fast and there's simply a lot more of it compared to the games of old, whose load times people seem to already be seeing through rose tinted glasses. You want HD games and so on, learn the patience to wait while they install and/or load. It's only going to get longer in future.