Forza Motorsport 2 Review

By Eurogamer staff Published 8 June, 2007

Turn 10 reclaims pole position.

Version tested: Xbox 360

For today's release of Forza Motorsport 2 we're bringing you two reviews. "Why two reviews?" you logically ask. Well, because the original was that rarest of rare beasts: a driving simulator that appealed to the everyman, appealing to driving game fans regardless of whether they preferred arcade racers like Burnout, Riiiiidge Racer and Need For Speed, or the more serious out-and-out simulations like Gran Turismo or Grand Prix Legends.

And with that in mind we decided the best way was to seek out reviewers who would be approaching Forza 2 from two polar opposite - but equally relevant - angles. So, in the petrol head camp, we have Luke Albiges offering his considered opinion, while in the quick-fix, instant thrill camp we have Simon Parkin's thoughts on the matter. Will it live up to the hype? Will Forza 2 live up to the lofty expectations and deliver the ultimate console racing sim or will Turn 10's obsession for simulated racing perfection prove to be a big fat yawn? Read on...

Luke's opinion

It seems to me like the console racing oeuvre has lost its way somewhat of late. Outside of a few crucial titles that aren't afraid to do things by the book, things tend to be more Pimp My Ride than Top Gear. When you're participating in stupid drift challenges or bolting ugly bits of metal and tasteless neons to your cars for little more than a few extra intangible respect points, surely the alarm bells should start ringing.

Have we really become so fickle a public that developers no longer feel that they can give us a driving game that doesn't err from the racing line without us clamouring for more nonsensical elements? With the likes of Burnout, Ridge Racer, Initial D and the somewhat vilified Need For Speed catering wonderfully for more casual driving fans, surely there's still a part of the demographic that wants to see games where taking a corner well doesn't always involve swinging the tail end of the car out at an insane angle. For some of us, there remains a unique thrill in shaving split seconds from lap times or pushing cars to the very limits on every single bend and, for my money, Forza 2 is the most credible example of this on a console today.

Now let's not look down upon our gaming brethren - the ones who prefer their racing bold, brash and in your face (and probably with a side order of Avril Lavigne when EA has anything to do with it). Not everyone wants to get their hands dirty with engine tweaks, minor adjustments and complex telemetry data and that's understandable.

'Forza Motorsport 2' Screenshot 1

Indeed, with Forza 2, Turn 10 is clearly looking to appeal to racing fans from both schools of thought, offering players the opportunity to dumb things down and enjoy the on-track action with little cranial activity or to crank up the difficulty, work the figures and really immerse themselves in the world of the race driver. Race analysis screens and difficulty options make it pretty clear at which end of the scale the game is truly pitched and those that just want to coast through arcade mode will surely miss out on most of what Forza brings to the table. And boy, does it bring generously. While it may not be the most glamorous racer out there, that old adage that is so popular with ugly people - it's what's inside that counts - is perfectly applicable here as it's under the bonnet that Forza 2 really shines.

If there was ever any doubt about Forza's hardcore credentials then we're glad Turn 10 decided to handily map its reply to the d-pad. Tap up during a race and your HUD is replaced with the most in-depth telemetry information we've seen in a console game - everything from tyre heat and suspension information to exact brake and acceleration usage is displayed across several pages of staggering complexity. Experts will be able to make use of at least some of this information but it proves far more useful in post-race analysis, where the fact that most of the screen becomes awash with data can't put you off.

If you're struggling with a particular car or circuit, this function can be invaluable. Simply set an AI driver up with the desired options, sit back and study how he takes prepares for and takes each corner. Braking patterns, corner apexes and much more besides can be learned in this way, making this an extremely welcome feather in Forza's rather splendid cap.

'Forza Motorsport 2' Screenshot 2

A racer is made or broken by its handling and unlike so many driving games on the market, Turn 10's latest effort reminds us that when it comes to picking a vehicle, some girls are bigger than others. The front wheel drive runabouts that rule the early stages of the game's career mode ease you in wonderfully and you're able to push them insanely hard around corners after a little practice without too much fear off spinning off the track.

Work your way up to the ferocious rear-wheel drive beasts later on, though, and this no longer applies. It takes every ounce of skill and concentration that you have to avoid losing the rear end, and you genuinely need to approach every corner very differently depending on where your drive-train is at. AWD cars, meanwhile (that's All Wheel Drive, fact fans), stick to the road like glue, and where sportier cars can often save an otherwise lost corner with a costly slide, even the most adept of drivers will struggle to make an AWD vehicle even consider the prospect of losing traction.

Even within these three very broad sections, characteristics and sensations vary immensely from car to car. Although both rear-wheel drive and both rank B, the Aston Martin V12 Vanquish's ridiculous weight makes it far more of a challenging drive than the Lotus Exige. This is true across the roster of over two hundred cars as well, with each having its own unique feel to it depending on the plethora of facts and figures that go towards determining every aspect of a car's performance.

In stark contrast to the likes of Gran Turismo, where a single super-tuned powerhouse will get you through much of the game, Forza's spread of races is designed to test your skills across all disciplines. While some of the initial competitions have extremely lenient entry restrictions (only Japanese cars or only RWD vehicles, for example), later ones get far more specific - you might see a maximum level for horse power or weight govern which cars can enter or even get to the events where only certain factory spec cars are allowed. There's a great amount of variety offered through this simple decision and as you clear events with gold medals, the resulting prize car might be just what you need to tackle another competition further down the line. Structurally, Forza 2's career is incredibly sound and the clever car categorisation system makes it even more so.

You see, all cars featured have been assigned PI values (PI standing for Performance Index) which in turn govern what class that car falls into. D-rank is filled with cars like the Beetle and the Mini, production line runabouts which feel suitably sluggish. As you work towards A and S rank cars, you'll see the likes of high-end Ferraris come into play and there's even the odd U rank car, where the PI is actually off the scale. Then above that are four levels of race-built R ranks cars that come pre-pimped and ready to win races. Any modifications you make to your car once purchased affect its PI and rank accordingly - if you go overboard on upgrades, the car will be pushed into the next class bracket, where it's likely to find stiff competition from more capable vehicles. And with events dictating what classes can be used, balancing your modifications is one of Forza 2's most satisfying challenges. Clever players will push the PI to the very ceiling of any given class bracket, investing in those upgrades that allow further customisation rather than costly engine upgrades and with each car comes a new set of challenges, questions and opportunities.

'Forza Motorsport 2' Screenshot 3

It's not all about playing about with the inner workings of the cars, though. While extremely basic, the car painting options have almost infinite potential in the hands of a skilled (not to mention patient) artist. To the untrained eye, the ability to slap squares, circles, waves or logos on your car might seem somewhat unappealing and, to be fair, you really have to see some of the masterpieces that have been produced to take in the full scale of this element of the game.

Allowing up to a thousand layers on each side of the car, it's possible to piece together extremely complex graphics and paint jobs - the online Auction House (which we'll come to shortly) is a perfect place to scope and even purchase other people's hard work and a good lick of paint can see a worthless car's value go through the roof. In fact, once you factor in the discounts that levelling up in career mode gets you off new cars in your chosen region, this can be quite a moneyspinner, especially seeing as how you can store paint jobs for reuse later on similar vehicles. Unfortunately, I'm not blessed with the patience to create anything more complex than my relatively simple Pikachu Beetle but even that has made me a tidy penny through several sales. We can only imagine what sort of revenue can be made from some of the wonderful designs we've seen online. The Naruto rally cars, Mario Mini, Hello Kitty paint jobs galore... this is where you let your imagination run wild and once you get to grips with the rather obscure tools, there's not a lot you can't do.

Elsewhere in the online options, its clear that Forza's developers have done their homework. Forza TV lets you catch both high-level races and featured events to see how it's really done while race options allow for friendly face-offs and competitive career races alike where the rules can be set to cater for any level of player. There's even the opportunity to engage in knockout tourneys for big (albeit virtual) prize money and exchange cars with others either for free by gifting vehicles to friends or by selling them in the Auction House.

While a welcome addition, this could have been better implemented with a proxy bidding system like that of eBay rather than this last-minute mania - bid values are automatic and late bids extend the auction time slightly, meaning that desirable cars will be stuck at the one-minute mark for twenty minutes or more while countless people outbid one another over and over. If there's something you want, you actually have to sit and watch it as it comes to a close or you don't stand a chance.

'Forza Motorsport 2' Screenshot 4

Arcade and Time Trial modes are in there for when the stresses of damage and competition prove a little too much and while basic, these modes fulfil these purposes just fine. But the main focus of the game is clearly the epic career, starting with grids that look like a tiny Waitrose car park and culminating in day-long endurance events in the fastest things on wheels.

The only real criticism that can be levelled at Forza 2 is its similarity to the original Xbox release, with many of the tracks returning and the general feel and progression of the game being nearly identical. Even this is not a tangible negative though, since Forza was such a wonderfully paced and rewarding game the first time around. Not broken, don't fix. Simple.

Some may bemoan the clinical visuals, sure, and while the damage modelling may not be that accurate and trackside detail sparse, lovingly rendered cars and that rock solid 60fps frame rate give Forza a very clean and professional look as such an accomplished racing game deserves.

As only the second game that can really benefit from a steering wheel peripheral, chances are only the super-rich and the fanatical racer have invested in one so far. As with the last game, this is your ticket to the real Forza experience and while the price may be steep, avid racing fans will not want to be without. There's even an option to network several 360s through several angled monitors for a real driving seat feel and total racing immersion, although getting together the necessary equipment outside of a LAN party, press event or lottery win seems rather unlikely.

Whatever your input device, though, Forza 2 is by far the best console racing game we've set eyes on in quite some time. Respectable AI exposes Gran Turismo's racing-line-hugging corner buffers for what they really are, impeccable handling and customisation options allow for races to be undertaken in any manner you desire and the sheer wealth of content is nothing short of staggering. High-end options aside, even those of a more passive persuasion can see that Turn 10 is so crushingly close to perfecting its art that it puts many higher profile development houses to shame.

Expertly put together and able to cater for both those that want a quick and simple race and those that want a true to life racing experience, Forza 2 is unquestionably one hell of an achievement. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got things to calibrate. So, so many things...

9 / 10

Simon's take

For many players, racing simulators, that beloved playground of the most terrifying kind of PC nerd, are everything a videogame should not be.

They're about labyrinthine tuning menus, reams of incomprehensible breakdown statistics and unsalvageable races lost 20 seconds after the starting pistol fired for no crime more serious than taking an over-plucky run at the first corner. They're about non-words like Camber, Toe, Caster, Downforce, Telemetry and Torque and the ten million incremental tweaks you must make to each in order to shave point zero three of a second off your best, lonely lap time. They're about condescending others in comments threads, asserting that no console-based effort will ever be fit to buff the hubcaps of a real driving simulator like Grand Prix Legends, rFactor, Live for Speed, Richard Burns Rally and do shut up.

It's all anathema for console owners brought up on the brisk simplicity of Mario Kart's blue shells, F-Zero's corkscrew tracks and Riiiiidge Racer. While both styles of game present the same ultimate challenge - be the first to cross the finish line - these primary-coloured expressions go about it in a more easy-going, accessible and comfortable way. Indeed, for every gamer who thinks Gran Turismo 4, in all its meticulous, chronicling detail, is the greatest videogame there are, at very least, twenty more who reckon it's a ten-million dollar nerd vanity project; an exercise in protracted, painstaking vehicular tedium.

Turn 10 is only too aware of this populist backlash against driving sims, which explains why the developer had billed Forza 2 as The Driving Game Both The Casual And The Enthusiast Will Almost Certainly Enjoy (our paraphrasing). So, while on the previous page Luke has busied himself talking to those gamers for whom 'finding optimum differential torque distribution' is a cause more worthy than 'finding Maddy', I'm here to figure out if the game's any fun for people who like Micro Machines, candyfloss, Pokémon and sunlight.

'Forza Motorsport 2' Screenshot 5

And, somewhat implausibly, it's Pokémon fans that are in particular luck. As Game Director, Dan Greenawalt pointed out to us a few weeks back Nintendo's Gotta Catch 'Em All 'em up provided huge inspiration. It's obvious right from your first race. If you place in the top three your driver promptly levels up (ding!), you earn some money, receive a 5per cent discount with a car manufacturer and are made to feel pretty good about yourself. It's all very RPG-esque and, by borrowing that genre's characteristic of offering lots of small gains for small achievements, it succeeds in welcoming in even the most suspicious gamer.

With the promise of car prizes for each tournament you win and a flurry of discounts and partnerships as you level up both your character and each of your vehicles, the emphasis is, right from the off, placed on collecting everything. You begin by picking a home continent which dictates what cars will be most readily available to you but, as you progress, partnerships with makers worldwide open up. Each car has a very individual feel on the track and you will quickly find your favourites. However, as a multitude of different achievement points are on offer for owning every car from each nation you're encouraged to constantly try out new vehicles while filling in the blanks in your collection.

Likewise Forza 2's approach to scaling difficulty is masterful for the more casual gamer. Before any race you are able to tweak certain difficulty modifiers such as making the AI more intelligent, toggling driving aids like the ingenious red braking line or switching damage from cosmetic to actual. The fewer aids you choose the more money you earn so there is real incentive to learn to play the game realistically, while scaling back the difficulty in later stages is as simple as accepting a per cent drop in winnings for the race. Indeed, for stages that are proving too hard or too long you can even hire an AI driver to race for you. It's a brilliant buy out for players who can't be bothered to tackle the very long courses but still want to play on through the game.

Money is not only key to purchasing new cars but also to buying upgrades for those cars. For the casual user there's no need to get into the nitty-gritty of tuning. Instead, each car is given a Class (starting from D) to indicate its performance level. On top of this every car is given a Performance Index (PI) number. The higher the car's index number the more powerful it is. When you buy upgrades to your car this index number increases and so the trick is to upgrade in such as way that you can squeeze as much power out of it without tipping it over into the next class. Souping a car up out of its class type is silly as most races limit entries based on class. Online you'll be able to see the PI of all of the other players' cars and this quick reference will give you an instant indication of whether you're going to be competitive or not thus removing a lot of the intimidation and confusion from the exercise.

Indeed, the community aspect of the game is incredibly well-handled and accessible. Car decals you've sweated over in the photoshop-esque Mario-Paint mode can be gifted to the world via an auction house - also viewable over the Internet. Likewise photographs you've taken in-game (you can also apply a wealth of tweaks to these such as aperture, white balance and contrast) can be uploaded to the Forza site mid-game (for posting on forums the next day) and with fully searchable race statistics the game integrates game and web with professional elegance not seen since Halo 2.

'Forza Motorsport 2' Screenshot 6

But despite all this slick excellence, and it is an extremely polished and professionally presented videogame, Forza 2 lacks a little personality. It's difficult to quite put your finger on but as the hours roll past there's an undeniable sense of sanitation, over-cleanliness and coldness within the game. Partly this is due to its mechanical nature: there are no characters or personalities to engage with here. Rather, all of your time is spent with machinery and, while admittedly lots of that machinery sports beautiful curves or, in the case of the older cars, perhaps holds warm nostalgic memories, it's still pretty hard to fall in love with.

Then again, when you count the number of men and women who fritter their weekends away in garages, or the teenage boys who accrue a small country's GDP worth of debt just so their Corsa can glow blue and hang low, maybe gamers like us are missing the point a bit. Mercifully, for those sitting on the fence, nervously weighing up whether Forza 2 is worth it to someone who doesn't swig petrol for elevenses, the racing is magical. It's a consistently tense, exciting and - if you use the Force Feedback Wheel which we absolutely urge you to do - very physical experience that comfortably overtakes PGR3.

Best of all you needn't have four interlinked TV screens and a bespoke racing chair to get the most out of this game - although that option is there for those who want it. Neither have you to spend hours under the bonnets, reading performance graphs or worrying about which spoiler is more likely to impress a girl and intimidate a boy. Forza 2 really is as universally appealing a sim racing game as one could hope for, and there's not a blue shell in sight.

9 / 10

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Comments (160) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • mowgli #1 5 years ago

    cool - i fucking loved the first one so i hope this lives up to my expectations

  • GiantHaystax #2 5 years ago

    2nd!

    Shame the demo was so crap. I was looking forward to it having not played forza1 but the demo really put me off. Stuck with it and got it through the letterbox this morning so wil give it a go this evening.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 14:46

  • yegon #3 5 years ago

    I just hope my 360 holds out. Every time I've got a game I really wanted - Dead Rising & Gears - my 360 has died instantly. True story.

  • Steroyd #4 5 years ago

    Hmmm if this game has Endurance races like Gran Turismo I think you'd better buy an extended warranty stat!

  • Tonka #5 5 years ago

    I just hope my 360 holds out. Every time I've got a game I really wanted - Dead Rising & Gears - my 360 has died instantly. True story.

    So there has been two games you really wanted in the year and a half the 360 been out?

  • kincaide #6 5 years ago

    I like games with blue shells in it

  • AlpTighen #7 5 years ago

    /curtains

  • rashes #8 5 years ago

    they can charge for downloadable tracks.. just bought this at lunch ... can;t wait to get home...
    The demo was good once you turned off the assists.

  • yegon #9 5 years ago

    >>>So there has been two games you really wanted in the year and a half the 360 been out?

    No no, heheh. Had loads of great games for it, but they were a couple of key, standout titles that I was really looking forward to previously.

    Like I say, just hope it doesn't kill my 3rd 360, been working a charm since I got it replaced in Nov last year.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 15:03

  • skillian #10 5 years ago

    Edited for wrongness.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 16:03

  • statix101 #11 5 years ago

    "and that rock solid 60FPS frame "

    OMFG!!!!!....360 does 720p AND 60fps.....nice to know it dosent have to be an either/or choice in the hands of the right developers..

    Other lazy bastard dev's take note.

  • jonthepymm #12 5 years ago

    This is a superb game, and that 60fps is key. Detail is not as sharp as it could be, and the Gran Turismo HD demo on PS3 looks better in motion. But that's not out for ages, so get this! I've never had a game work so well with a steering wheel either.

  • Dizzy #13 5 years ago

    4 pages?

    Impressive... It looks like an awesome game but I am not a racer so I will let the other EG guys kicks some ass with this game ;)

  • Macross #14 5 years ago

    Got this in the mail thursday afternoon...

    Its freekin awesone ;D Enjoying it more then the original infact. Oh and it does have endurance races :p my poor 360 muhahaha.

    Id also have to disagree on the Gran turismo HD thing, which while admitedly is crisper graphically, seems to lack something when I played it compared to Forza 2.

    Just my opinion there anyway, still forza is the best driving game ive played yet and i used to be a massive gran turismo fan, its won me over.

  • pjmaybe #15 5 years ago

    Can I just be the first to say Furbs is a big fat numpty :)

    Peej

  • Daithi #16 5 years ago

    This seems to come up every time, it's 12 environments not 12 tracks.

  • ruttyboy #17 5 years ago

    It's a brilliant game but there are some glaring errors with it.

    Firstly you can't do a qualification lap and it ranks you on the grid with the most powerful car first, meaning it's even harder to place with a relatively weak car. Good if ou like uber-challenges, but it discourages you from challenging yourself IMO.

    Secondly the blantant 'micro-content' based fisting that's going to happen over the tracks...
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 15:21

  • jonthepymm #18 5 years ago

    Macross: "Id also have to disagree on the Gran turismo HD thing, which while admitedly is crisper graphically, seems to lack something when I played it compared to Forza 2."

    Fair enough - there's probably not much in it!

    Note also that there's way more than 12 circuits - probably closer to 60. Many are variations though, sharing layouts in a similar way to Project Gotham.

  • Eighthours #19 5 years ago

    This game is so brilliant with the wheel. Anybody with the necessary funds should go out and buy one now!

    Good reviews, guys. Glad the game has got the scores it deserves.

  • Darren #20 5 years ago

    This game is really great where it counts: the gameplay, but the visuals are a little disappointing and it does feel uncomfortably like the original in everything except the slick presentation because most of the tracks are identical. As a result, I'm enjoying the game, the handling is great, 60fps is cool and the game constantly rewards you but at the same I'm already fed up of racing on the same old tracks that I mastered dozens of times over two years ago on the Xbox. Had the game had more new tracks than old and a bit of extra AA, it would have been perfect. Instead it gets 'just' 9/10 from me... ;)

    Oh... and the music in this game is fantastic (unlike the original which was dreadful) so why can I not listen to it ingame??? Yeah, I know I can use a custom soundtrack, and I do, but it seems such a shame that a decent default soundtrack is relegated to only playing in the menus...

  • ruttyboy #21 5 years ago

    "Note also that there's way more than 12 circuits - probably closer to 60. Many are variations though, sharing layouts in a similar way to Project Gotham."

    Yeah, but 20 of those are on the fugging Test Track! ;)

  • jonthepymm #22 5 years ago

    You gotta love that Test Track

  • Furbs #23 5 years ago

    peej - no, been done maaaaaaaaaaany times.

  • PearOfAnguish #24 5 years ago

    How complex is this game? Are we talking a Gran Turismo level of detail where it's still accessible by normal people, or is it more like one of those unbearably anal SimBin games like GTR?

  • The-Bodybuilder #25 5 years ago

    So what's going on with drivitars? Do you still get to train them?

  • DDevil #26 5 years ago

    Alright, you've convinced me to buy this. I shall go purchase it tomorrow.

    Glad you did a review in the viewpoint of a non-petrol head... Because that's me alright, I prefer my driving games to be more arcadey. I've got to say though there's something inside me that's looking forward to getting to grips with this.

  • SBfistfun #27 5 years ago

    4 pages and multiplayer was barely mentioned?!

    Pah

  • Beano #28 5 years ago

    Nice score and I will receive my copy tomorrow... but the graphics still looks quite bland ;)

  • superdelphinus #29 5 years ago

    no console-based effort will ever be fit to buff the hubcaps of a real driving simulator like Grand Prix Legends

  • KingOfTheC #30 5 years ago

    18/10?!!!!

  • gamingdave #31 5 years ago

    "18/10?!!!!"

    er, no, 18/20

  • Raid #32 5 years ago

    >>So what's going on with drivitars? Do you still get to train them?

    I read on the official forums that Drivatars had been left out of this release; I haven't gone looking for them, but I haven't seen an option to train them either. You can still hire an AI driver though.

    On the issue of tracks; the amount of different 'ribbons' is certainly good, but it's a shame that they've reused a lot of the environments from the first game. They've kept the dull-as-dishwater Silverstone and left out the wonderful Japanese hill-climb for example.

    Tracks aside though, I'm yet to find any real fault with the game. I'm not able to test multiplayer yet because of networking conditions on-campus (preventing me from joining actual races), but the less involved online aspects such as photo uploading work beautifully. I really want to see photo modes in more games.

  • KingOfTheC #33 5 years ago

    '"18/10?!!!!"

    er, no, 18/20'

    I worry for you.

  • optimusprym8 #34 5 years ago

    cool just got my 3rd 360 back from MS today so looking forward to burning rubber tonight :)

    Although have been playing for a week (the joy of free copies at work :)) and I noticed that some low spec cars (Saab 9-3 Areo) with simple exhaust and intake upgrades, the engine sounds just like someone making Brrrrrrm noises into a microphone :p

  • Darren #35 5 years ago

    They couldn't get hold of that car so that *is* how they did the engine noise! LOL

  • Les #36 5 years ago

    Has there ever been a double review in which they disagreed on scores?

    Looks like the typical current-gen game upgrade: more pixels, nothing to spectacular when it comes to gameplay. But apparently, minor upgrades are OK (e.g. earn big review scores) as long as developers perform them across a generational shift... But of course, it's still a good game. It just makes you take reviewer's complaints about unoriginality with a hefty dose of salt...

  • Xerx3s #37 5 years ago

    What? Only a 9?

    Booo! Bias!

  • krudster #38 5 years ago

    Tom gave Fahrenheit an 8 when I gave it a 9, so there's one for you. I later gave Psychonauts an 8 when he gave it a 9. There are some others as well, but there's five year's worth of stuff to recall!

  • morriss #39 5 years ago

    So....good game then I take it? :)

  • SBfistfun #40 5 years ago

    "I'm just unhappy with the whole next gen sequel, as it's not great leap forward"

    welcome to the net gen(eration)

    Will there be a separate multiplayer review???!!!

  • Xerx3s #41 5 years ago

    /hisses @ krudster ;)

  • morriss #42 5 years ago

    Les. :)

  • manic_mouse #43 5 years ago

    "nothing to spectacular when it comes to gameplay. But apparently, minor upgrades are OK"

    It's a sim-driving game numb nuts, you drive cars around tracks in as realistic a fashion as possible.

    Some people need to get over their "innovation" fixation. In games like this there isn't going to be any, expecting it is stupid.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 16:15

  • wobbly_Bob #44 5 years ago

    I really want this NOW but I can't buy because me and me wench are going on holidays next month so all the money is being saved... and my two mates at work BOTH have this game and talked about how great it was all 8 hours... bastards!

  • nickthegun #45 5 years ago

    Is this the same ginger ex-CBBC presenter turned weatherman Simon Parkin? I suppose he needs something to do between bulletins....

  • JetSetWilly #46 5 years ago

    Has there ever been a double review in which they disagreed on scores?

    I'm pretty sure Tom gave SoTC an 8 compared to 10 from Kristan/Rob whoever did the other review - sorry.

  • Macross #47 5 years ago

    manic mouse: :D

    glad someone else thinks so, innovation is good, but theres a time and place for it and sometimes evolution is better then completely making something different.

    this is a great game, and the sour grapes in this thread need to lighten up or go back to their modern art galleries where all the other innovation obsessives innovate with cows chopped in half while everyone else thinks they are silly for being different for the sake of it rather then because it actually makes something better.

  • kangarootoo #48 5 years ago

    @Macross

    I agree. I've probably said in the past that I would much rather have a well implemented if unoriginal title than a great new idea that turns to shit somewhere in development.

    Obviously having both is the valhalla to aim for, but I sometimes think that too much focus is put on originality. When it is the ability to deliver a well turned out game experience (regardless of its concept) that is what seperates the good games from the bad ones.

  • Nithron #49 5 years ago

    54th!

  • Darren #50 5 years ago

    Let's face, superb as this game is, it is uncannily like the last game because most of the tracks are the bloody same, the game structure is pretty much identical and there's nothing really new added at all. The innovative drivatar feature was removed for whatever reasons, the replays still use poorly choosen camera angles compared with Gran Turismo 4/HD (where they make the game look exciting), the game structure is identical, the physics and handling in all honesty don't feel much different from the last game to me and the graphics are not all that hot either. Even the A.I. still suffers from that stubborn I-must-stick-to-the-racing-line mentality such that I've found myself shunted from behind on more than one occassion - this is supposed to be a simulation and no real driver would do that in real-life!

    Yeah, it's a fantastic game but only because the original was... this has the Auction House and a 60 fps framerate added, a few new cars and tracks and that's about it. When I look at the leap from PGR to PGR 2 to PGR 3, which all felt distinct from each other, I can't help but wish that this game felt a bit more different from the original. If it wasn't for the slick presentation and vastly improved music, I'd think I was playing the original!!! LOL

    I'm really enjoying at the moment, despite the repetition of the tracks, but for me it lacks the excitement I felt when playing the original on the Xbox for the first time...

  • kangarootoo #51 5 years ago

    @Darren

    "Even the A.I. still suffers from that stubborn I-must-stick-to-the-racing-line mentality"

    What, you mean like real racing drivers?

    Maybe not the shunting bit, but I think that depends on the situation and how well you yourself are driving.

    I know people who race motorbikes in real life and you can absolutely believe that if you lose nerve and brake too early going into a corner someone else (expecting you to ride well instead of muffing up your braking) will likely come crashing into the back of you.

    It happens in F1 very occasionally, when someone stalls on the grid and the person behind drives right into them.

  • Darren #52 5 years ago

    What I mean is that a proper racing driver would slowdown to avoid hitting you in the first place but at times in Forza 2 it feels like the A.I is totally unaware of me such is their determination to stick to the racing line. Admittedly, I've only been hit that way a few times but it is annoying when it happens because it means me having to restart the race. I remember this happened in the original too but I was hoping the A.I. would be more advanced in this game but it seems exactly the same to me.

    If it happened on a corner then I could understand it but several times I've been hit on the straights... :?

  • Krusty #53 5 years ago

    Great reviews!!

    My copy arrived yesterday and I'm hooked already - didn't touch LOTRO!

    The driving model and force feedback really are incredible; you can feel understeer on my overpowered Corrado when the fronts fail to bite into the corner. The immense grip of my specced up R32 is something to behold too.

    9, no 10/10...

  • kangarootoo #54 5 years ago

    @Darren

    "What I mean is that a proper racing driver would slowdown to avoid hitting you in the first place"

    Seriously, that doesn't always happen. Of course a rider/driver will make the effort to slow down, but it is not unrealistic to expect to get smacked up you do something unexpected. Now we could discuss whether the impact rate of Forza is unrealistic, but I think that might be a little futile (given that none of us is likely to actually drive realistically ourselves, I'm not sure how we could accuse the AI of not responding to our driving realistically).

    I guess it depends on the brief. If the game is annoying you for the reason you gave than I agree that is a bad thing, but if the brief was to make the AI drivers behave like real ones, well they might be meeting the brief in that regard and its your driving that is unrealistic compared to that found on a pro race track (not saying you are a shit driver btw :) )

    Edit:

    Ooh, missed this bit.

    "If it happened on a corner then I could understand it but several times I've been hit on the straights... :?"

    That does sound a bit daft. Maybe that just got all overexcited :)
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 17:19

  • Overlush #55 5 years ago

    Nearly all the same tracks as the original and only 12 in total?

    Why has it all been downhill since PGR2?

  • krudster #56 5 years ago

    It's a solid 9 really, like the last one but with with the sort of bells on we all wanted.

    Sure, it's not a massive revolution, but nor did it need to be - plus it has come only 2 years since the last one. Not a big gap in game development terms.

    And if SotC isn't a 10, I don't know what is. But let's not go there. Oh shit, we did.

  • polymorph #57 5 years ago


    This is probably a silly question but, has anyone played this on a wheel (not the official one) yet?
    I got a wheel for christmas which i used on the only racing game i had which was burnout revenge, i love burnout but the wheel was awfull with it.
    I tried it again last night (the wheel that is) with forza 2 i really liked it, there wasnt massive oversteer like there was in burnout.
    I know the official wheel has real force feedback, but apart from that are there any differences with wheels out there?
    Should i front up the $ for the official one?

  • kangarootoo #58 5 years ago

    "And if SotC isn't a 10, I don't know what is"

    Oblivion got a 10 right?

  • MrBiggles #59 5 years ago

    360 continues to kill ps3 in the games department, nice

  • kangarootoo #60 5 years ago

    Why is it nice? Surely lots of good games for everyone would be the ideal?

  • Les #61 5 years ago

    "Some people need to get over their "innovation" fixation. In games like this there isn't going to be any, expecting it is stupid."

    Might be the case but then what's the purpose of a sequel?!

  • MrBiggles #62 5 years ago

    Because I can't afford 400 quid for a PS3 so I want it to die a horrible death...

    I'm not going to spin it, just come out with the truth, I was a PS1 and PS2 owner who felt that Sony took the piss with the PS3. I can afford most things but PS3 has no reason to be 400 quid, games don't warrant it so why should I support them this time?. I own a Wii and 360 and it covers every fucking base when it comes to console gaming. PS3 needs to go the way of the Dreamcast fast so we can keep console gaming cheap and for the masses like it's always been.

    And SOTC is good but I don't think it's a 10/10, control issues and bad framerate fuck it up enough to drop it a point.

  • Les #63 5 years ago

    "If there was one gaming platform that would be ideal (like DVD is for movies), having to buy multiple platforms isn't nice."

    Couldn't agree with you less. It would kill creativity and we'd never have seen things like PlayStation, DS or Wii.

  • Les #64 5 years ago

    "PS3 needs to go the way of the Dreamcast fast so we can keep console gaming cheap and for the masses like it's always been."

    "but PS3 has no reason to be 400 quid"

    Uhm, well actually, it's never been like that till the Wii. And going for cheap has some disadvantages, like the horrible build quality of the 360.

    But game-wise I agree, there's not much reason to own a PS3. Like there's little reason to own a 360 if you've already got an xbox or ps2. PS3 and 360 are only for the hardcore as it is and unless MS or Sony can turn this around, both will be financial failures.

  • polymorph #65 5 years ago

    Wheels?

    Worth it?

  • Qbert2k #66 5 years ago

    "I'm not going to spin it, just come out with the truth, I was a PS1 and PS2 owner who felt that Sony took the piss with the PS3. I can afford most things but PS3 has no reason to be 400 quid, games don't warrant it so why should I support them this time?. I own a Wii and 360 and it covers every fucking base when it comes to console gaming. PS3 needs to go the way of the Dreamcast fast so we can keep console gaming cheap and for the masses like it's always been. "
    That's quite funny. You think any company with a monopoly (Nintendo is not aiming for the same market as ms/sony imho) especially MS, is not going to exploit that, no competition, charge whatever you like, release shoddy products, that would be great. Your thinking is short-sighted. If gaming is going to stay cheap we need competition.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 19:04

  • polymorph #67 5 years ago

    @ MrBiggles,
    You so sound like a fanboy, so much so that you said you wasnt straight away!
    I agree with you on certain points, but chill the fuck out!
    I like what the ps3 offers, but im not paying that sort of money for it.
    And i could easily,(i just refuse to pay for shit i dont need)

    I do not need to justify my wii, and 360 purchases at the same time though.
    I owned ps1, & ps2. Basically i have owned every console since they called them consoles, i started on the speccy!!
    I am not paying the money for a bluray player untill they are cheap enough.


    DON'T DISS THE DREAMCAST!!
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 19:17

  • Mordum #68 5 years ago

    Great reviews... Recieved mine through the post yesterday, and I'm loving every minute of it, excellent game.

  • Yossarian #69 5 years ago

    9/10 sounds overated

    The tracks look average.

    the considered reviews of two people with extensive experience with the game are nothing beside your eagle eyes, I take it?

  • Overlush #70 5 years ago

    As I've said before, getting all high and mighty over the 360 having more games than the PS3 is like getting full of yourself because your 3 yr old son is doing more things than your next door neighbour's 6 month old son: pathetic and naďve

    All three consoles are going through a drought at the moment. I mean, this is the only thing of worth to be released on the 360 since the PS3 launched!

    The next few months look ace for all three consoles: deal with it

    ""but PS3 has no reason to be 400 quid"

    IMHO it being the only fully functioned, smooth operating and reliable media/entertainment hub gives it EVERY reason.
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 20:00

  • Scimarad #71 5 years ago

    Well, Luke's review put me right off this game but luckily Simon's made me all enthusiastic again - Good call with the dual review thing.

    Although this did worry me a bit:-

    "It's difficult to quite put your finger on but as the hours roll past there's an undeniable sense of sanitation, over-cleanliness and coldness within the game."

    That's kind of what I tend to associate with the first Forza and I can't help thinking it still sound a little dull. That said I enjoyed the demo I suspect I'll like the game.

  • baardhimself #72 5 years ago

    good game.. kinda dissapointed about the jaggies on the cars and that it doesnt look better than GT:HD but it offers alot more than GT:HD right now. I just wish I could connect to my friends races so I can crash into him >:)

  • GamesConnoisseur #73 5 years ago

    Graphically it is quite acceptable, it doesnt swoon you but the smoothness is much more important so Turn 10 made the right call. I think it is unfair to compare to GT HD when it only have one track and actually quite limited demo of what GT could do, but I am liking this so much more than my GT HD on PS3, and like others have enjoyed every minutes of FM2 so far. Spent over 3 hours non stop already, and that saying a lot!

    Recommend people to give this a good try, worthy of being the best sim on X360 but would not say this the best driving sim of any platform... yet, so hoping Poly will raise their bar for GT.

    EDIT: My opinion is that it is a very solid 9 and not even tried multi-player yet!
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/07 @ 20:33

  • SomaticSense #74 5 years ago

    "This seems to come up every time, it's 12 environments not 12 tracks.

    No, it's actually 12 tracks not 12 environments. In real racing terminology track = circuit = course. Or another way Suzuka = track/circuit, and Suzuka West = ribbon/circuit variation.

    The "environments" thing is a Turn 10 gaming terminology that was used to pre-empt all the inevitable "Why are there so few tracks" comments, so they turned it on it's head just so they could stick "50 odd tracks" on the back of the case and mislead the racing anoraks. It's all PR.
    Which they needn't have done to be honest, as there seems to be more than enough tracks to be dealing with.

    Anyway, back to my beloved 281bhp electric blue Astra VXR (modelled on the Top Gear mag one).

    /worries is becoming chav......
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/07 @ 21:28

  • Kryon #75 5 years ago

    Wow! What a total surprise! Les is in another 360 thread spitting idiotic fanboy bile and telling us all how it's "just more of teh shiney pixel and der PS-tree is da more bettA innit"

    Les, everybody knows where your loyalties lie, I have so much pity for poor fools who can't afford both consoles so spout shit about the one they haven't got/don't want because of pathetic brand loyalty.

    Les you do not own a 360, you don't want one either, why are you in this comments thread? I have no idea why Kristan even bothered replying to your pathetic trolling attempt.

    This game is awesome (as the double review indicates). Why are you here trying to piss on everyones parade? Fuck off plz. KTHNXBYE

  • JackB #76 5 years ago

    To the poor AI complainers. The AI is fantastic. The AI is very very respectful if you know who has the right of way and know how to drive. "Respectable AI exposes Gran Turismo's racing-line-hugging corner buffers for what they really are..." I race lap after lap and never get touched. If you can't drive real people and AI will hit you.

    And to the "Where is the improvement? It's the same game as Forza" critics... Improvements are:

    AI is smarter.
    Physics are sampled 360 times a second instead of 240 for Forza 1 and 60 for Gran Tourismo.
    Physics are more sophisticated.
    Forza TV
    Forza Auction House
    Livery Paint Tool has 4,000 layers compared to 600 and more shapes and includes fonts.
    60fps graphics instead of 30fps.
    Online Tournaments
    Website integration of Tournaments, Photos, Auctions.
    Brilliant Photo Mode with uploads.
    More upgrade parts.
    All upgrade parts have weight and it's calculated in the handing of the car.
    35 tire compounds instead of 3 in Forza.
    More sophisticated damage model.
    Parts now fall off and stay on the track.
    More tracks. 12 environments with 48 ribbons (ie variants).
    Spectator mode in lobby's with voice for spectators
    A ton of new host options in multiplayer
    Replays of online races can be saved for viewing later... And upload of photos from online races.

    The facts are it's only the same if you don't notice anything new. The improvements are there if you look.
    Edited by 7 at 08/06/07 @ 21:50

  • killyourtv #77 5 years ago

    racing games... yawn

  • pancho #78 5 years ago

    KillyourTV: read the second review.

  • JackB #79 5 years ago

    In the hope that you may all have an enjoyable online and offline racing experience with AI and real people... Here is something I posted in another thread, that may be helpful. Generally, I've found European drivers very well informed about racing, but there are still a few that could use some help.

    ================

    Here is what the SCCA RULEBOOK and Skip Barber Racing school say about the rights to a line:

    "The responsibility for the decision to pass another care rests with the overtaking driver." If , at the brake point, your car is dead alongside the car your are trying to pass, the overtaken car is obliged to leave room for you and not simply turn into you at the turn-in point. If, however, you're trying to pass but you're not quite alongside, as in having the front wheels up the the middle of the other car at the break point, you haven't made the pass; it's your responsibility to get out of the way of the other car and yield the line in order to avoid a collision. The other driver might yield and give you room at the apex, but you can't count on it. He may not have even seen you if he hasn't been looking in his mirrors. If you're not alongside, you've got to expect to be "chopped", which is the racing term for another driver pulling across the nose of your car going to the apex.

    ==================

    My take.

    Inexperienced online drivers will chop you even more often than AI drivers. In Forza 2 the AI drivers are very respectful of the guidelines above. Anonymous online racers (not friends) will often late break and crash into your side and blame you, because they saw an opening "after" your turn-in and went barrelling right through your line instead of backing off.

    If you're not even at their turn-in point for the other car, you should back off and wait 'til you've earned the line. Late breaking is very difficult, because you have to brake later, which means you'll have more speed going into the turn. Then you must typically provide a racing line for the other driver, which means you yourself have to take the inside line which will be VERY slow even if you do stop in time to take the inside line...

    If you're even or almost even and you brake late you can pull it off, but 9 times out of 10 cars late braking are 1 to 2 lengths back and try to late brake. They go screaming past the car with the good line and skid right past the apex and the inside line. At that point, they've either broadsided the car with the good (outside) line or skidded right past and off the track.

    Bottom line. Passing on straights or sweeping turns is often much easier (depending on your car of course) than late braking.

  • mkreku #80 5 years ago

    OK, no matter how good this game looks, I just can't move my excitement meter one bit. Who cares if it has 2 billion cars with another billion of decals and modifiable parts? It has twelve tracks, and a lot of those are taken directly from the original Forza. I'm just not one of those guys who can circle the same strip of asphalt for hours on end anymore. :(

    Oh well, I still have the next Test Drive Unlimited to look forward to.

  • bdc #81 5 years ago

    12 tracks, each with several different routes. Methinks you're just fucking stupid.

  • bdc #82 5 years ago

    :p

  • mkreku #83 5 years ago

    Oh yeah, that smiley really helped.

  • Overlush #84 5 years ago

    Ok, so the tracks have variations - I think the thing that has people scratching their heads though is that most of them were in Forza1! Ok, so they're basing it on real world tracks - I get the point - but why limit the fun and variety just because you've got to be 'real'. IMHO the whole racing-sim genre suffers from trying to be 'real'. The last time I checked car behaviour is dictated by friction, gravity and inertia and my couch, gamepad and tv don't quite fit the bill when it comes to re-creating them realisticaly. Bring back fucking Rallisport Challenge PLEASE!

  • JackB #85 5 years ago

    You know what I hate about PES and FIFA. Every damn pitch is the same with different grass. What kind of crap is that. Next thing you know Forza 3 will come out with 1 track with different colored asphalt.

    That's why I don't like football. The ball never changes. The damn fields never change. I don't get it. How can that be fun. Don't people get bored playing with a round ball every damn game? Maybe Forza 3 will have 1 car.

    Yeah, that's it. One ball in FIFA. One car in Forza 3. One pitch in FIFA. One track in Forza 3. I thought Europeans were racing fans. Not impressed.

    You know what I think. There are a percentage of people in this thread who could give a rat's ass about auto racing. They aren't fans. They don't get it and they never will.
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/07 @ 23:29

  • SomaticSense #86 5 years ago

    @Overlush

    Before I got the game I was thinking EXACTLY the same as you. In fact I instigated the debate on the matter on a few forums regarding Turn 10's purposeful 're-catergorising' of tracks as 'environments', and that if people were to actually look at the track listings they would see that it is massively underwhelming, and nowhere near the variety that "50 odd tracks" implies (I can't remember whether the quoted figure was 52 or 57). The number even includes the reverse versions of each track and course variation for Christ sake.

    But after playing it, I honestly couldn't give a fuck anymore. Yes, Turn 10 did purposefully change the terminology to make the number sound more than it really is, but I now must be at least 8 hours into the career, and I still haven't even been on half of the variations (and I'm not even counting the reverse ones), and I'm still not bored of the ones I'm forced to use seemingly all the time.

    Reason being, is that much, much more than previous racing games you really need to know the tracks. If you are using the wheel, manual gears, medium AI, and all assists off, then it is absolutely essential that you truly know the course variation you are currently racing on, otherwise you haven't a chance. At times (in my case the Suzuka West, and Silverstone GP & International courses) an intense amount of practice laps are needed before you are truly ready to race on them. If there were more tracks, then it'd just be too much to learn, and it would be forever before people like me are able to get to know them.

    If there were more tracks, then I'd have no fucking chance!!
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/07 @ 23:31

  • Les #87 5 years ago

    "Wow! What a total surprise! Les is in another 360 thread spitting idiotic fanboy bile and telling us all how it's "just more of teh shiney pixel and der PS-tree is da more bettA innit" "

    Wow, how surprising, another xbot trying to turn a normal conversation into a fanboy rave... But that's what fanboys do. You lot only know dogma's and aren't capable of having a proper discussion, based on logic and arguments. Please look again at that silly line you wrote above. It makes no sense. Try harder.

    "Les, everybody knows where your loyalties lie, I have so much pity for poor fools who can't afford both consoles so spout shit about the one they haven't got/don't want because of pathetic brand loyalty.

    Les you do not own a 360, you don't want one either, why are you in this comments thread? I have no idea why Kristan even bothered replying to your pathetic trolling attempt."

    This seems like a classic case of pot-kettle-black. I don't care about brands, I care about quality products. But I do love to rile up pathetic fanboys like you.

    You're right that I don't own a 360 and as it is, I don't want one either. But since when is that a prerequisite for joining a comments thread?! I'm not trolling, I gave fair comments to the article. If you can't stand anyone that's not heaping praise upon praise on the console you lost your soul to, you're quite sad.

    PS3 and 360 are quite useless consoles so far as the only thing developers can do with them is create the same old games with lots of pixels. What bothers me is that for some reason, reviewers think it's perfectly acceptable to create minor updates to games when there's a generational shift and give them high review scores while had those games been released on the same generation as the previous installment, they would have been slacked for bringing too little to the table. Personally, I think that's quite ridiculous (especially considering that the minor upgrade requires a significant investment in new hardware) and it shows the immaturity of the medium. Game journalists are gamers first, critics later.

  • Katsumoto #88 5 years ago

    50 quid in game. ouch. apologies if this has been mentioned already - I notice a lot of you own this, any less painful prices out there that you can recommend?

  • Les #89 5 years ago

    "That's why I don't like football. The ball never changes. The damn fields never change. I don't get it. How can that be fun. Don't people get bored playing with a round ball every damn game?"

    You should give Super Mario Strikers a try... But other than that, it's quite a poor attempt at humor and quite a bad analogy. Don't you guys get taught proper reasoning anymore?!

  • JackB #90 5 years ago

    @Les

    "But other than that, it's quite a poor attempt at humor and quite a bad analogy. Don't you guys get taught proper reasoning anymore?! "

    ======================================

    OK, smart guy, where's your intelligent response explaing WHY it's a bad analogy?

    Auto racing fans in real life often spend $15-30k a year to race a single car around a single track on the weekends for maybe 8 races a year. You know why they spend that much on one car and one track? Because they LOVE auto racing.

    Go away. You're a troll and not an auto racing fan. Forza 2 was not made for trolls. Go post about something you know something about. What that is, I'm not sure...
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/07 @ 23:59

  • RMXtreme #91 5 years ago

    @ Katsumoto

    It's Ł 40.99 over at cd-wow.com, Ł 39.99 at play.com and also Ł 39.99 at Amazon.co.uk.

  • The-Bodybuilder #92 5 years ago

    >"I read on the official forums that Drivatars had been left out of this release; I haven't gone looking for them, but I haven't seen an option to train them either. You can still hire an AI driver though."

    So it;s like pokemon, except for the whole training bit.
    I would've loved some online drivitar battles with other people's drivitars.

    I'm less interested now (but will probably still buy it).

  • The-Bodybuilder #93 5 years ago

    >"this is supposed to be a simulation and no real driver would do that in real-life."

    Except Schummaca ofcourse.
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/07 @ 00:25

  • The-Bodybuilder #94 5 years ago

    >" IMHO the whole racing-sim genre suffers from trying to be 'real'."

    Wouldn't be much of a real-life simulation if it didn't....you know, simulate real-life.

    Edit: Spelling errors ftl.
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/07 @ 13:54

  • Katsumoto #95 5 years ago

    @ RMX

    cheers, I think i'll still wait a while till it ends up as part of a deal, but playing the demo may convince me otherwise. Alas, my 360 is with Microsoft atm!

  • mkreku #96 5 years ago

    So according to JackB you can't be an auto racing fan unless you like to spin around the same track a thousand times over and over and over again.

    Uh, right, JackB, if you say so.

  • ScottyXTUK #97 5 years ago

    Got the game today and have spent a good few hours playing it and I'm loving it. It's everything I hoped for and more, the 60fps feels so smooth and the Nurburgring is a blast to play.

    I haven't found anything to moan at yet and I doubt I will. I know I'll be playing this for months to come, it's a superb game. Review score is spot on, brilliant game, one of the best racers out there with GTR2 and GT4.

  • kangarootoo #98 5 years ago

    @Les

    First off, I think the commenters suggesting you are trolling in this instance are full of crap. I may not agree with you, but I didn't think the points you made were vacuous in any way. I don't much care what your motives are so long as you deliver your opinion in a constructive way, which so far I believe you have.

    One fanboy accusing someone else of being a fanboy, simply because they don't like what they have to say is about as interesting as drowning, so lets not humour that any further in this thread please. Some would prefer the world if everyone agreed with them; but then an ego never needs much stimulation, rather it just requires regular buffing. Jesus what a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything.


    However... your mention of not owning a 360 begs me to ask a question. Have you actually played this game, the AI of which you were commenting on so specifically? If you haven't put significant time into playing the finished product (I've heard bad things about the demo, so that hardly counts as fair comparison if that is all you have played), that rather undermines everything you were saying about the quality of the AI.

  • davisorle #99 5 years ago

    @ Les

    This game rocks. Who ever thinks its not about the most amazing driving game out here right now he is just messed up making a fool of himself cause he either doesnt know of racing games and cars in general either is a freaking fanboy that has nothing better to do for once more.

    @ JackB

    Still though a soccer game couldnt be able to have upgrades or anything cause that would be so not realistic :p

  • Kryon #100 5 years ago

    @Kanga

    I accused Les of trolling and no, I'm not full of crap. Les has not played the game, does not own a 360, and has no interest in any 360 related topic (apart from trolling them). He is just upset that the 360 has just been graced with another triple-A title. He tries to cover his tracks by saying the PS3 is also "useless", yet I don't recall seeing such negativity from him in any Sony/Nintendo related item.

    @Les

    You mention that you don't like the way EG reviews games? F*** off then and troll elsewhere, your twatty comments and fabricated criticism is not welcome here.

  • driptray #101 5 years ago

    Ł37.99 at woolies!

  • Les #102 5 years ago

    "However... your mention of not owning a 360 begs me to ask a question. Have you actually played this game, the AI of which you were commenting on so specifically?"

    Uhm, well, I wasn't. I only have a gripe against reviewers that put games down for not being significant improvements upon their predecessors but don't mind the same thing happening when there' s a generational shift in between. Never, ever mentioned the AI, because, you're right, I can't possibly comment upon that from first hand experience.

  • Les #103 5 years ago

    "yet I don't recall seeing such negativity from him in any Sony/Nintendo related item."

    I'm very critical of Sony and Nintendo if there's reason for it. You 360 fans really need to deal with criticism, this is sad. And by the way, I never said the game was crap, as some of you mindless drones scream, because it clearly isn't. It's not my fault that most of you people are too stupid to comprehend my posts...

    "You mention that you don't like the way EG reviews games? F*** off then and troll elsewhere"

    Sorry, but this is the "comments" section, not the "heap praise" section...

  • Les #104 5 years ago

    "OK, smart guy, where's your intelligent response explaing WHY it's a bad analogy?"

    Because you're comparing the pitch of a football game with the track in a racing game. The pitch has quite specific specifications while a racing track needs a start/finish line and a pit, some space around it for safety, but outside of that, you're pretty much free to do as you please. As a consequence in football the pitch itself (so I'm not talking about weather conditions) doesn't impact the game that much, while just the track design has a huge impact on how a race pans out.

  • captain-future #105 5 years ago

    A solid 8 /10 for me. I miss more tracks and it's a little too much Forza 1.0 with HD graphics thrown in. But it delivers where it matters.

  • Overlush #106 5 years ago

    ""IMHO it being the only fully functioned, smooth operating and reliable media/entertainment hub gives it EVERY reason."

    @Overlush - Lets not for get "Games Console" shall we? That being the whole point right?

    Games = entertainment = read 1st my post

  • Kryon #107 5 years ago

    "I'm very critical of Sony and Nintendo if there's reason for it"

    What reason could you possibly have to criticize the AI/playability of a game you haven't played? The word 'imbecile' springs to mind.

    You see the thing is Les, I don't comment in PC threads (for example) because I have no interest in PC gaming, I certainly wouldn't comment on aspects of playability when I've never played the game in question.

    As for me being an Xbox fanboy, not true, I'm playing VF5 right now on my PS3, it's just people like you make me ashamed to be a gamer (unless you're under 14, which I suspect you probably are)

  • Kryon #108 5 years ago

    "Sorry, but this is the "comments" section, not the "heap praise" section..."

    No ones asking you to "heap praise" but if you dislike the journalism here, go elsewhere. You're not forced to read EG so if you find it so totally disagreeable, bugger off.

    /Thinks Les is probably French... Poor guy :(

  • FooAtari #109 5 years ago

    Edit - Sorry, I didn't realize I wrote so much...

    /puts on his flame proof hat...

    Where to start. I've played most racing sims going from Grand Prix to Forza Motorsport 2 including Grand Prix Legends, GT4, GTR 2, GT Legends and Richard Burns Rally along the way. I love racing games, but I really love racing simulations.

    (by the way i've also at some point owned most gaming platforms over the last 15 - 20 years, I don't much care what platform a game is on, so long as it's good. Just to get that away before I am accused of being a fanboy)

    Forza 2 isn't a bad racing game, but as a racing simulation is doesn't cut it IMO. Here are some of the reasons why, in no particular order.

    Race formats. Any racing sim worth is salt should immerse you in the role of the racing driver, that includes the option of at the very least a qualifying session, preferably practice sessions as well. Forza 2 does not have this. You are dropped into a quick fix 3 lap race, which is quite arcade like.

    Telemetry. In order to set up a car properly you need to drive at the limit. How exactly are you suppose to read and take in any meaningful data on how the car is behaving when it can only be viewed while racing. Concentrating on that means I'm not concentrating on driving. This means I'm not driving at the limit which in turn makes the telemetry a bit useless. As for using the A.I. to do it, I'm setting the car up for me, not the Xbox 360. I'm not sure if you can watch the telemetry during replays? But this would make setting up the car a very cumbersome and long process.

    RWD Cars. The FWD cars feel quite realistic to drive. But the RWD cars are very challenging, but for all the wrong reasons. They have waaaaay to much tendency to over steer. For example, in both the Mazda RX-5 and Renault Clio v6 I experienced the same thing. When going through little more than a fairly gentle left hand bend with stock setup I completely lifted off the throttle before turing in. I then turned in and had the rear end snap out, as I counter steered to catch the slide (which is also far to easy) it almost felt like Ridge Racer. As with the demo all RWD cars constantly want to oversteer regardless of power, throttle application or weather entering or exiting the corner. To me the cars also feel very much like they spin on a central axis.

    Overall though FM2 feels to forgiving all together.

    And what's with the brakes? Last time I checked my brake pedal (or trigger) wasn't a digital button. But you have to apply very little pressure before they lock up.

    Thats the biggest gripes that come to mind

    Without getting into the amount of tracks or similarity to the previous games, Forza Motorsport 2 is a decent racing game. But simulation it isn't. Weather you think games like GT Legends or Grand Prix Legends are anal, doesnt give FM2 extra credit. Neither does other sims not being available on the 360.

    I understand why they might want to tone things down a little to appeal to a broader marker, but again that doesn't mean FM2 should get any kind of special treatment. The fact is, MS and Turn 10 hype this up to be an amazing sim, and it should be reviewed as such and against other games in the genre. Not PGR 3, or even just GT4. From a simulation perspective FM2 can't compete with the realism these games offer.

    I'm not a huge fans of scores, as a game I can see why it would get an 8 or a 9, but as a sim I'd give it 6 or 7. And that's what it supposed to be....

    And not get me started on the wheel :)
    Edited by 2 at 09/06/07 @ 13:03

  • The-Bodybuilder #110 5 years ago

    >"How exactly are you suppose to read and take in any meaningful data on how the car is behaving when it can only be viewed while racing."

    I haven't got the game. But doesn't the review indicate that you can view the telemetry during the replay?

  • Kryon #111 5 years ago

    @Les

    Read the post above by FooAtari, that is valid criticism by a person who is enthusiastic about the genre and has actually played the game ( I'm not saying I personally agree with all his points) but I have no problem with critics like him because he gives valid reasons for his views and has actually played the game without a pathetic platform bias. Do you now understand why people think you're a wankstrel and a troll? I hope that has cleared things up for you. :-)

  • FooAtari #112 5 years ago

    @ The Bodybuilder

    You can. But you can't get to the setup screen during the reply as far as I remember. You have to quit the reply, go back to the main menu and go from there. Then you would need to take the car out and start all over again. Pretty cumbersome way to do it.

    Ideally i'd like to be able to pause the game during a time trial/practice session or have a garage screen where I can view telemetry from the last lap, make some adjustments and go again.

    I'm a bit elitist when it comes to sims i'm afraid. But it seems a bit of a waste to have all those tuning options and telemetry data but no efficient way to make proper use of it.

  • Les #113 5 years ago

    "What reason could you possibly have to criticize the AI/playability of a game you haven't played? The word 'imbecile' springs to mind."

    How can you criticize me if you don't even read my posts?! I never ever criticized Forza 2 or it's AI. The word 'imbecile' certainly springs to mind...

  • Les #114 5 years ago

    "You're not forced to read EG so if you find it so totally disagreeable, bugger off."

    I don't totally disagree. Learn to understand words, words combined to sentences, etc. and read my posts again. Maybe one day you'll get it...

  • Les #115 5 years ago

    "I have no problem with critics like him because he gives valid reasons for his views and has actually played the game without a pathetic platform bias. Do you now understand why people think you're a wankstrel and a troll? I hope that has cleared things up for you. :-)"

    As long as it's silly people like you that don't read posts that think I'm a wankstrel and a troll, I'm perfectly fine with it. It's not as if there's anything to do about it. If you wanna be a moron, be my guest. I can't force you to read intelligently and/or make smart remarks...

  • kangarootoo #116 5 years ago

    ARSE!!

    I got my commentors in a twist and got all confused. I shall explain.

    I was chatting away with Darren about the way the AI drivers behaved. I didn't share his opinion, but he was being contructive and so everything was good.

    Then in a classic blond moment I switched tracks and got it into my head that it was Les who made the initial point about AI driver behaviour. And in essence, I started talking nonsense.

    Fuck. So, let me unravel this shit tip.

    @Kryon
    Much apologies. I don't think you are full of crap. I got all confused :)

    @Les
    When I read your comment saying you hadn't mentioned AI the cogs in my head slowly twitched into action and I realised what I had done. TBH, if you haven't played the game, you probably don't have much constructive comment to give about it. I shan't however accuse you of trolling, or indeed defend you against accusation of such, as I can't be arsed to tread back through the thread to see what you actually said.


    So, the lesson we have all learned today is that I need to take my vitamin. Or more accurately, I need to avoid posting on EG in the very early morning from my desk at work, when drunk, after missing the last train home after a night out on the razz.

    Kangarootit signing off.

  • Les #117 5 years ago

    "TBH, if you haven't played the game, you probably don't have much constructive comment to give about it."

    Which is why I wasn't commenting on the game itself but rather on the strange phenomenon of sequels within a generation getting a "too-little-innovation" discount, while sequels across generations don't. Some crazy people took this as an attack on Forza 2 which it isn't.

    "as I can't be arsed to tread back through the thread to see what you actually said."

    You shouldn't as it was mainly responding to idiots that failed to see the point of my original comment.

  • Kryon #118 5 years ago

    @Kanga

    You are well loved and respected in these forums so I'm sure you'll be forgiven for drunken/tiredness :)

    @Les

    Listen poppet, I feel I want to communicate with you but there is obviously a significant age barrier there (i.e. you're obviously about 7 or 8) so I'll refrain from commenting further as you might tell your mummy that I'm cyber bullying you and that's not my intention. :) < Smiley face (makes it all better)

    Edit - But you are French aren't you?
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/07 @ 16:09

  • Les #119 5 years ago

    "Listen poppet, I feel I want to communicate with you but there is obviously a significant age barrier there"

    Well it's quite clear there's an intellectual barrier...

  • fungaloid #120 5 years ago

    "Edit - But you are French aren't you?"

    What would that have to do with anything?


    "OK, smart guy, where's your intelligent response explaing WHY it's a bad analogy?"

    I get what you are saying but I think one important difference is that for most people your main opponent in football games is the team you play against while in racing your main opponent is actually the track. For me at least the comparison would be having few tracks in a racing game is like having few teams in a football game.

    For me it's about having a good amount of variety. In a football game I would like different teams with different strengths so I have to change tactics, team selection etc. In racing games I like to have tracks that vary in terms of the challenge they present. Of course having lots of different tracks doesn't immediately mean there is a lot of variety. I'd rather have 12 tracks that offer different challenges than 5 gazillion ovals that just have different clouds.
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/07 @ 18:03

  • miiiguel #121 5 years ago

    MS should start delivering some shitty games otherwise anti-MS (aka Sony-fundamentalists) will develop serious skin problems.

  • JackB #122 5 years ago

    @fooAtari,

    I have a pet peeve when people comment on sims, who aren't nearly qualified.

    I'm not saying you aren't, but I just looked up your ranking on http://fo rzamotorsport.net/scoreboards/F... and for Career you are ranked 199,283. Now maybe you've not played this much and are a great racer, I don't know, but do you have any decent times on any time trials or Hotlaps? I have a poor career ranking, because I play online and am not nearly finished with Career, so that could be an excuse, but I checked your True Skill rank it's Beginner indicating you haven't raced on line yet. I'm in the top 3% in True Skill at the moment for online racing.

    My gamertag is Jack B if you want to challenge how much I've invested in my opinion on Forza 2. You can look up Time Trials on Mugello Short or Nubergring if you want to challenge my credibility. Also, B class on Road Atlanta, Mugello, Sebring. Some of those are ranked under 100, some under 300. I'm not saying you aren't qualified to comment on a sim's quality, but do you have any better times than 199,283, because I believe it's an excellent sim. Note: I've played many of those other sims you mentioned as well on the PC. In fact my first was Indy 500 on the PC in 1987/88.
    Edited by 3 at 09/06/07 @ 22:14

  • miiiguel #123 5 years ago

    Read all the comments now, and Les..., man..., someday you'll say "yes, it's a good game /blushes/, but still the font size on the box is soooo last gen..., so no 360 for me!"

  • Overlush #124 5 years ago

    We come from the same angle in the sense that I too got bored of farting around with upgrades, drivers and PC gaming in general.

    I own a low spec laptop so for me, the PS3 IS the entertainment hub - the laptop's just a tool to surf the web and write a couple of letters.

    I'm not trying to 'sell' anything - just puting my view across is all.

  • SomaticSense #125 5 years ago

    @FooAtari

    "I'm a bit elitist when it comes to sims i'm afraid. But it seems a bit of a waste to have all those tuning options and telemetry data but no efficient way to make proper use of it."

    There is. Go for a test drive and press 'up' on the d-pad, and voila, instant telemetry. Then just pause the game, go to the tune car option and tinker to your heart's content. Then unpause and go back to your test, and see how your results are working via the live telemetry again. Easy!
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/07 @ 22:45

  • TheCooler #126 5 years ago

    >>> There is. Go for a test drive and press 'up' on the d-pad, and voila, instant telemetry. Then just pause the game, go to the tune car option and tinker to your heart's content. Then unpause and go back to your test, and see how your results are working via the live telemetry again. Easy!

    Yep, that's how I do it.

    I find it quite funny that FooAtari - being an elitist and all - calls the game shallow and stupid. And then overlooks something as obvious as this. But seeing his ranking he probably haven't played much at all.

    And what about this:
    >>> Last time I checked my brake pedal (or trigger) wasn't a digital button.

    It isn't a digital button dude. It is a trigger with 256 levels of pressure. You can brake very hard, or almost nothing at all. And 253 levels in between.

    Personally I have no problems at all applying just a touch of brakes when I want to do that.

  • FooAtari #127 5 years ago

    @JackB

    You would be right I havent played much of the career, ranked online games (done several unranked races with friends) or done the Time Trials. But I have done quite a few practice sessions or whatever that mode called. Any car, any track.

    And I'm not going to challenge your skill or ability in Forza or how qualified you are to comment on a sim. I take slight offence that because I have not posted many times in "ranked" events you question me? Like you I have been playing sims for many years.

    This evening I did many laps round several ciruits in RWD cars from Group B to R1 and I have changed my opinion slightly.

    I still feel most of the stock cars are way to tail happy. But in general as long as you stay within the limits of the car the physics feel pretty good. But as soon as you cross the limit it all goes a bit wrong and this where i think it caters towards more casual racers. I very rarely completley loose the car. For example I put the rear end of the car on the grass and got totally sideways, I was at 90 degrees to the track but I just kept my foot on the throttle and steered into the skid, I got the car back and kept on going. This happens the 90% of the time the car goes into a slide. Not realistic. The more laps I did the better the handling felt but that doesnt change how the car reacts in a slide... I don't need to have logged 100 hours of play to know that wont change. And when that happens it spoils the immersions for me.

    And the other things I mentioned that are not physics related still apply. If you have played other sims I can't see how any argument can be made to excuse those ommissions. It's not just physics that make a sim.

    Have you played GT Legends or GPL with a clutch and H shift? Obviously Forza doesnt begin to simulate this but imo it shows that the physics engine is more advanced than Forza's, taking into account factors such as engine braking.
    Look at it this way, bang it down a gear without blipping a throttle and watch the car swap ends.

    I have a little track experience, having driving a single seater, a Caterham 7 and a breif run in a rally car. Games like those I mentioned on the PC just feel more realistic and beleivable to me. Forza is fairly realsitc, but also made to cater to a broader market in my opinion. Wether im a high ranked player or not doesnt have much relevance in my ability to judge these things imo. I'll continue to play it though and see how it turns out.

    Anyway I rarely take part in ranked game, the fact that they are ranked usually means people have other concerns when playing online leading to dirty racing and such like.
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/07 @ 23:58

  • FooAtari #128 5 years ago

    I guess I stand corrected SomaticSense :) That's a bit better than I thought. I hadn't looked that far into it, my bad.

    @sofalover. Tried it. All that does is adjust the area where is no response.

    @TheCooler. Dont put words in my mouth. I did not call FM2 shallow or stupid.

    It isn't a digital button dude. It is a trigger with 256 levels of pressure. You can brake very hard, or almost nothing at all. And 253 levels in between.

    Funny that, I find I have to be very light with the brake. I find you need to push it less than half way down to apply full brakes and slow down very rapidly. It doesnt take much to lock the brakes. I belive this is down to trying to make a big and obvious difference between ABS on and off.

    I think im a bit elitest in want I want from a sim, not that I think I know better than any particular person. I do feel I have quite a lot of experience. I'd be interested to know what sims you have played and what wheels you currently or previously owned.

    Finally see my previous posts about rankings. You can experience a lot of this game without doing a single "ranked" race or career race. But i'll admit I overlooked the telemtrey options.

    But seeing as you guys are putting so much emphasis on the ranked stuff i'll log some serious hours when im off work next week if it makes you happy...
    Edited by 3 at 09/06/07 @ 23:59

  • captain-future #129 5 years ago

    @SomaticSense: Excellent point with the setup. Thanks, didn't know that!

    /tips hat.

  • JackB #130 5 years ago

    @FooAtari,

    I appreciate you changing your evaluation as you learn more about the game. Make sure you drive without TCS and SCM. Very different car handling. You backend comes out and recovering is nearly impossible. Keep the telemetry up or watch the reply with the telemetry and the tire temps just kill you in those situations.

    As for the real-time telemetry adjustments, someone mentioned the Test Drive option for that.

    Engine breaking, downshifting to cause tire slip or a spin and lift off oversteer are all present. Drive without the aids to really feel them. Additionally, I tune or upgrade out most of the issues on a car if needed. If you're into sims, then you'll probably understand how to tune or upgrade out or at least minimize certain characteristics in any cars in question. Some are more difficult than others, but if the adjustments are available you can always crank up oversteer or understeer to dramatically change a car's handling. It's a big part of Forza and one they "want" you to experience. If you're a sim guy. Fix it. Be thankful. Many Forza users, don't understand tuning. I'm guessing you do. Unless you're Tom Cruise in Days of Thunder, you should be able to tell your pit crew what the car is doing and help them tweak it.

    And yeah, I've driven Legends with an H shifter. I still have that laying around, but it died. It was extremely challenging. Sure, I'd prefer the Motec software they have in GTR for examining telemetry, but not having it doesn't make Forza a bad sim. The physics modeling is excellent and the rest of the game impressive.

    They calculate the weight of all upgrades and even how it effects the front/rear car balance. Even rim sizes change the car handling. Even some of the upgrade parts, change to sound of the car. That's impressive stuff. Overall, it's an impressive sim, IMO. Throw in the 300 cars, great online hosting options, tournaments, car painting etc, and this is a 9 easily.

    Anyway, as you explore more options, you'll start to appreciate the depth. It's not quite as deep in some areas as certain PC sims, but it's better and deeper in others and overall it's an incredible effort. And yeah, the G25 would be great even at two and a half times the cost the 360 wheel. The api's have been made available and hopefully Logitech will make this happen.
    Edited by 2 at 10/06/07 @ 03:27

  • FooAtari #131 5 years ago

    @JackB


    Make sure you drive without TCS and SCM. Very different car handling. You backend comes out and recovering is nearly impossible. Keep the telemetry up or watch the reply with the telemetry and the tire temps just kill you in those situations.

    Driving aids??? Haven't gone near them, not even once. What do you take me for :-P I have started career on Champion and have no intentions of changing it. Recovering is far from impossible. Just out of interest are using the wheel or pad?
    Sliding all over the track may kill your tyres, as it should. Doesn't change how easy it is to save the car.

    As for the real-time telemetry adjustments, someone mentioned the Test Drive option for that.

    Yeah like I said above I overlooked that. Good to know.

    Engine breaking, downshifting to cause tire slip or a spin and lift off oversteer are all present. Drive without the aids to really feel them.

    I agree that it is simulated to a point. But the game has to have an auto cluth which (not a criticism) which helps to dial these things out. All though the lift off over steer is there for sure.

    Additionally, I tune or upgrade out most of the issues on a car if needed. If you're into sims, then you'll probably understand how to tune or upgrade out or at least minimize certain characteristics in any cars in question. Some are more difficult than others, but if the adjustments are available you can always crank up oversteer or understeer to dramatically change a car's handling. It's a big part of Forza and one they "want" you to experience. If you're a sim guy. Fix it. Be thankful. Many Forza users, don't understand tuning. I'm guessing you do. Unless you're Tom Cruise in Days of Thunder, you should be able to tell your pit crew what the car is doing and help them tweak it.

    Forza definitely delivers in the tuning department, no argument there. But I am talking about stock cars here. Most road cars, even RWD, will have a tendency to understeer purely for driveability (is that a word) and safety, unless you stamp hard on the throttle through a bend or something (in a moderately powered car). Obviosuly if you drive something like a TVR Tuscan, the powere there will make the car more tail happy than your average RWD. But you hardly have to touch the throttle in the game for the back to start sliding around. I think it's a little OT in that respect.
    You will not go to a show room and find a Clio V6 or RX-5 that's as tail happy as those in the game. It shouldn't have to be dialed out, well it cant be dialed out in a stock setup. Tuning only comes into play when you are running "racing" parts.

    And yeah, I've driven Legends with an H shifter. I still have that laying around, but it died. It was extremely challenging. Sure, I'd prefer the Motec software they have in GTR for examining telemetry, but not having it doesn't make Forza a bad sim. The physics modeling is excellent and the rest of the game impressive.

    I agree that some parts of the game are impressive, the tuning and upgrade options are quite huge and in depth. I don't agree the physics model is excellent however, I'd say its good.

    They calculate the weight of all upgrades and even how it effects the front/rear car balance. Even rim sizes change the car handling. Even some of the upgrade parts, change to sound of the car. That's impressive stuff. Overall, it's an impressive sim, IMO. Throw in the 300 cars, great online hosting options, tournaments, car painting etc, and this is a 9 easily.

    I also fully agree with the content of the game, there is plenty there to keep you busy for a long time, again no arguments. I did say earlier, as a game I can see where it gets a 9. But from a sim perspective I still feel it misses some crucial options and modes, which brings the game down a little IMO. Like I said above I want a full race weekend, more telemetry options and better physics.

    Anyway, as you explore more options, you'll start to appreciate the depth. It's not quite as deep in some areas as certain PC sims, but it's better and deeper in others and overall it's an incredible effort.

    Again I mostly agree. And you might have hit on something. It's not as deep as PC sims in the areas that count for me. Yes it is an incredible effort (if very similar to what we had in Forza) and yes it has a lot of depth. But that doesn't change what I feel is missing.

    And yeah, the G25 would be great even at two and a half times the cost the 360 wheel. The api's have been made available and hopefully Logitech will make this happen.

    Two and a half times? I paid Ł89.99 for the 360 wheel and Ł140 for the G25, which in my opinion is far superior than Ł50 worth, if that makes sense. But take a look at the Logitech Driving Force Pro, released mainly for the PS2 and GT4, 2 years ago(?), (i also used it on the PC) which is an infinitely better wheel in every area. And I paid Ł70 for it new in 2005.

    The 360 wheel is a poor effort worth Ł50 at most. The steering column is loose, it centers slightly off center and generally feels a little cheap. It's also noisy and isn't very subtle, due to a week FFB which in turn limits the range of effects possible. Certainly doesn't have the build quality of the Logitech wheels, including the Driving Force Pro. I was rather surprised by the MS wheel. I used to own a Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel 6 or 7 years ago, it was of better build quality and allowed for a greater range of effects than the 360 wheel does. Granted it's better than the pad but far from impressive. Most console wheels are crap, but the DFP raised the bar to a high level for a mainstream market wheel, the 360 effort fell quite a long way short of it.

    But don't get me wrong. I'm not discounting your opinion, quite enjoying the discussion actually :D physics are quite subjective sometimes and what feels right to one person may feel wrong to someone else.
    The only area where I'm at a loss is with the RWD cars, even low powered ones, tendency to oversteer. I don't understand how anyone can feel this is realistic, the same for when the car actually starts to swap ends. IMO it's way to easy to catch it and there is a reason for it. Make a game to hard and most people will not enjoy it. That's why PC sims are bit niche and never sell well IMO. But in other areas the physics in forza are completely subjective. The game feels good as long as you don't over step the limits of the car you are driving. I guess I think that the physics are quite good in most areas, but a little forgiving sometimes.
    Edited by 2 at 10/06/07 @ 08:14

  • Overlush #132 5 years ago

    "generally feels a little cheap. It's also noisy and isn't very subtle"

    A bit like the thing you plug it into then?

    /is ashamed

  • FooAtari #133 5 years ago

    @Overlush

    Lol

    However, sadly, you have a point there.

  • chronom4n #134 5 years ago

    What I can't get over is the fact that the MS wheel has no gear stick! In my eyes, the lack of a gear stick is criminal. One of the beauties of having a gear stick is that it allows you to change and steer all with one hand if you know how to! so i can still drink and drive!

    On the subject of telemetry, I thought that that was a real good move in the sense that while driving you could tell exactly what was happening to the car. But there is something weird that i have noticed. could someone please clear this up for me. why oh why does it seem that the disc brake rotors heat up fully at the slightest press of the brakes.

  • FooAtari #135 5 years ago

    @Chronom4n

    Yeah that would seem to be another issue. Show me a stock Integra (or take your pick of any of the lower class cars in the game) that will have it's discs go red hot under breaking?.... In fact there are many race cars, such as a touring car for example, where that doesn't happen either. A cosmetic issue only perhaps but still a bit odd. I'll have to take a look at the telemetry and see what happens.

  • bauhaus #136 5 years ago

    Tescos sold out, gonna try Woolies on the way to the beach in a few moments

    This better be good


    EDIT: Better than my speeling at least! :/
    Edited by 1 at 10/06/07 @ 12:16

  • Overlush #137 5 years ago

    I'd go for a wheel setup IF you could get one with: wheel / gearstick / clutch

    Anything else seems like a half-assed waste of time.

  • FooAtari #138 5 years ago

    I agree Overlush. As long as the clutch is optional in game. I'd love it, but it's pretty dam challenging racing with one. Heel-toeing can be tough to master. Although most modern race cars run sequential semi-automatics anyway.

    But I would have settled for a good two pedal setup.
    Edited by 2 at 10/06/07 @ 14:28

  • kangarootoo #139 5 years ago

    Ok, I've scanned back through the thread to see what Les was actually on about in the first place. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

    Les commented on there being little in the way of what might deem "advances" made between this title and its prequel. Now I haven't played either game, so I can't agree or disagree on that point. However, I thikn he was treated somewhat harshly for suggesting that sequels should try harder to be a little more original. It honestly appeared to me that the reaction to him was based on the assumption that he was critisising the game. Actually, he made a point of saying he thought the game seemed very good, but was using it as a vehicle for making a more general point.

    NOW, whether originality is good for its own sake is a bigger argument that was given credit here. I've said before that originality is nice, but I don't value it as highly as strong implementation. In this instance it sounds as though Forza 2 has had some minor tweaks, making the overal experience 'even better' than the first episode of the franchise.

    So it might be said that me and Les disagree on the value we place on originality in games, but at LEAST we should have all been able to have an adult discussion on the matter. Les might even have changed his mind, or seen a different point of view (I am sure he remember countless sequels of good games, that in the pursuit of 'doing something new' turned into travesties and killed the franchise with which they were associated). But he isn't going to now is he? Not now some people are calling him ten different kinds of c*nt!

    @Kryon

    If you and me were to sit and discuss originality in games, it sounds like we would probably agree on most of the key points. But we differ on the way we present our arguments I think. I don't know where Les is from, but if he was from France would it realy matter? It doesn't matter to me thats for sure. And don't forget the age old Rule of the Internet - the first person to call names loses the argument.

    I bet if we chilled out and started again we could have a proper discussion about originality vs iteration. By another name what we are talking about here is revolution vs evolution. Its not a new subject, and cases can easily be formed for both sides of the fence (not that these things are even mutually exclusive). I bet we would find some stuff to agree on to, regardless of what games we like, what system we play them on, or what city we play them in.

    So there.

  • cyber_nicco #140 5 years ago

    kangarootoo is obviously from France, too.

    :p

  • Overlush #141 5 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Originality or more of the same? It depends on the genre I guess. I mean, driving, party and sports games get away with churning out the SAME environmnets again and again but can you imagine an FPS or action game churning out EXACTLY the same levels and environments from game to game? And before any of you start with half-assed Halo comments, I mean EXACTLY the same, y'know, like using tracks from Forza 1 in Forza 2.

    Odd that it's FPS that seems to get slated so much for being 'moribund'...

    Someone get the track designers from PGR2, the joystick designers from Steel Battalion and the 'it has to be realistic' physics designers from Forza in a room with a big fat-ass bong.

    Driving zen :)

    Edited by 1 at 10/06/07 @ 19:43

  • EmiliasHorse #142 5 years ago

    Best driving game ever?
    Yes I tend to think so.

  • FooAtari #143 5 years ago

    My vote easily goes to Grand Prix Legends. The most challenging sim I have ever played, and probably ever will. The devs had the balls to do a game most wouldnt.

  • JackB #144 5 years ago

    @FooAtari,

    Yes, good discussion and I'd say we agree more than disagree. One thing to consider is that it's significantly easier to get the handling accurate for 30 cars than 300. I'd agree that car manufacturers always build understeer into lower end vehicles, because it's much safer than oversteer. Having said that, I've not spent much time in the lower powered vehicles in question, although I have noticed quite a bit of oversteer in a couple I've driven.

    Since, I've spent hours and hours tuning cars, I can typically tune in or out oversteer or understeer with a single or multiple tweaks to some of the subtle options. Tweaking tire pressure, Toe In, Camber, Shocks, Anti-Roll bars, Wings, brake balance, differential etc, can all be used to "fix" a car's handling. You can't make them all handle identically, but you can have a huge influence on handling. Thus, I never really worry much about the stock settings. I just change them if needed.

    Did they get all 300 cars just right? I doubt it, but I don't look at that as a physics issue as much as a "does a particular car's handling match it's real life counterpart. Matching 300 cars from street cars to R1's is a ridiculous task. 30 would be more manageable. I'm more concerned with can I get a car to feel and react like a car should. The answer for me seems to be, "yes, they've modeled the tire physics, upgrades, tuning, weight effects, lift off over-steer, down shift traction loss, etc, very well".

    Grand Prix Legends was a great game, but it did little to expand the sim genre in a big way. It's been discussed before, but a true sim needs a motion simulation at the least. The only one I know of costs $24,000 US dollars. Without that it's unfair to ask a sim driver to "feel" a car like a real driver would. If the sim car handles exactly like it should, it would be extremely difficult to drive, because you just don't have the same quantity of clues about when you are on the edge. GPL wasn't really fair. It was rewarding to the hardcore, but honestly it would probably be easier to drive the real car. It was so hard, because you just didn't have the real world forces/senses to help. Sim's need to compensate a bit to give you a fighting chance. Forza 2 does a very commendable job with 300 cars. In the end it's a console sim, so things like Motec add-ons aren't likely, sad to say, but on the other hand online leaderboards (currently up to over 200,000 users) and real-time tournaments in game are going to bring far more people closer to the sim genre than another GPL.

    Enjoy.

  • kangarootoo #145 5 years ago

    @cyber_nicco

    Vive la difference!

    :)

  • kangarootoo #146 5 years ago

    @Overlush

    Am I correct in assuming all the tracks in Forza are created for the game (rather than being based on real world tracks)? My thinking is that if someone released a MototGP game and used all the real world MGP tracks, people wouldn't complain so loudly perhaps if the same tracks were used the next time around if they were still the correct MGOP tracks from the current season.

    I think it really depends on the game type, but even then its not so straight forward. Your FPS comparison is a good one, and I'm sure reusing levels would be frowned heavily upon, even if everything else was updated.

    So maybe at one extreme we have the FPS, at the other extreme we have football and tennis (where no-one would expect new pitches or courts), and somewhere in the middle we have driving games.

    I think sometimes we focus too much on originality for its own sake (as has been suggested by others along the way). Rather than look at the tracks, or the wheels or the paintschemes or the pit babes or whatever, shouldn't we be asking whether people that play the game have a fun old time doing so?

    If both new players, and players coming from Forza 1, both love this new game... has it not achieved its goal? Now maybe even players who love this could say "well yes, a few original tracks would have made it even better"... but I think we can always find something that will make our favourites games "even better". That doesn't make them bad games, it just means that we can't escape reality (and that we all have good imaginations).

  • Les #147 5 years ago

    “However, I thikn he was treated somewhat harshly for suggesting that sequels should try harder to be a little more original.”

    TBH, that wasn’t really my point. What I merely stated is that sequels should be treated equally regardless of there being a generational shift in between. I actually happen to agree with your POV. ;-)

    “Read all the comments now, and Les..., man..., someday you'll say "yes, it's a good game /blushes/, but still the font size on the box is soooo last gen..., so no 360 for me!" “

    Well miiiguel, if you’ve really read my posts than it’s down to your limited intellectual capabilities that you didn’t recognize that I didn’t say anything negative about Forza 2 other than the general remark that 360 and PS3 games deliver nothing new gameplay-wise. Not all people are so obsessed with brands as you are.

  • tesco #148 5 years ago

    The most entertaining thing to note from this very long winded comment thread is that Les had said he wanted to post to "rile" the fanboys. I would suggest that Len has possibly been more riled than anyone else.
    Too defensive Les, you should have just posted once and left it.
    People know they have gotten to you now.

    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 11:26

  • CannonAnBall #149 5 years ago

    I've played FM2 for most of the weekend and I'm loving it. I never played the first one so I can't comment on that but Forza 2 is a very very good game.

  • king_skins #150 5 years ago

    Having played the first game and now the latest one the lack of more tracks is a little disapointing. But the game still rocks.

    Bring back Blue Mountain, I miss you. Hopefully more tracks to come via the marketplace. Three of Four more tracks would be wikkid. Brands Hatch would be good, being the home of motorsport and all.

    http://www.tdracing.org< /a>
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 11:49

  • SomaticSense #151 5 years ago

    Personally I'd love Sepang, the best race circuit in the world.

    And Silverstone makes me wish for MS to launch the first 'Anti-DLC' to take the fucking thing out of my game. Being a British motor racing fan I should love it, but I absolutely hate the place.......

    Seriously, how is Silverstone still in and Blue Mountain not?
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 12:27

  • ruckus #152 5 years ago

    I still miss the fact that there's no cockpit view - and the fact you can't manually change any of the views given (I drive via the bonnet cam but wish I had some degrees of freedom adjusting it since by default it's crap on some cars).

    Not enough variation in tracks as you go through career mode and I wish we had Donington intead of Silverstone ;)

    Overall a 7, not enough change since Forza (variable weather, custom races, ai seem to be not using the same physics model but then all games still do that?) but I still think it's a good game and obviously worth getting if your into driving games - if they release Le Mans then +1.

  • kangarootoo #153 5 years ago

    I bet DLC is firmly wedged into their plan for this title. I wouldn't be surprised to see new tracks and cars in due time, the pricing of which will obviously be another potential point of discussion :)

  • ilmaestro #154 5 years ago

    I don't even read your two page reviews, so I'm not sure what the point in a four page review is.

  • kangarootoo #155 5 years ago

    @ilmaestro

    "so I'm not sure what the point in a four page review is"

    Classic.

    You know, I think it might be for the other readers. Just a hunch.

  • FooAtari #156 5 years ago

    @JackB

    I agree you can tune out oversteer in the cars. My point however, was that many cars under stock setup are very tail happy. You cannot tune this out without first upgrading to racing suspension. So IMO, the stock cars, at least at the lower end should not have so much tendency to oversteer with stock parts. As a general rule of thumb the stock cars should have more tendency to understeer, unless of course your stamp on the throttle.

    As for the accuracy of each car, this is not so much of a concern to me. I fully agree it's a near impssible to to accurately represent each car. In this respect Turn 10 have done a pretty good job in the differences that they have managed to implement. Again I just feel in general the RWD cars are to tail happy. Like you, first and foremost, I want the cars to handle as a car generally should.

    As for Grand Prix Legends I do not agree :) It did a lot for simulations as it took realism and physics to a whole new level. I do not think it was unfair, as you said only the hardcore really enjoyed it, but I feel it was a game that was made for the hardcore, which there is nothing wrong with (you dont have to buy it).
    I do not think it's unfair, it's very very challenging, especially when you are missing the sensations of being strapped into the car. But it's far from impossible. With a good FFB wheel you can feel a lot of the cars movement. A sim doesn't NEED to compensate to give you a fighting chance, it's just harder. Grand Prix Legends was a game made for the hard core sim fan, Forza compensates and is IMO more forgiving in certain area's so that it appeals to a broader range of people.

    Sim's need to compensate a bit to give you a fighting chance. Forza 2 does a very commendable job with 300 cars. In the end it's a console sim, so things like Motec add-ons aren't likely, sad to say, but on the other hand online leaderboards (currently up to over 200,000 users) and real-time tournaments in game are going to bring far more people closer to the sim genre than another GPL.

    Forza may bring more people to the genre, but that doesn't make it any more of a simulation than it actually is. I don't think every game should be made for everyone. Grand Prix Legends does not appeal to most people but that doesn't mean that another GPL shouldn't be made for those that want it.

    And just to prove GPL isn't to hard for simulation fans, here is an ex Formula 3 racer (60's / 70's) doing pretty well.

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=Z8ZGjvn6PVM

    And I think it may be a bit ignorant to think driving in F1 in 1967 would have been easier than in the game ;-)
    Edited by 2 at 12/06/07 @ 19:55

  • kangarootoo #157 5 years ago

    That vid is really rather cool. I knew about heel-toe'ing, but it never occured to me that car racers would actually blip the throttle on changing down (its something that bikers on a track do as a matter of standard technique). Shows how much I know.

    I once saw a side by side video comparison of someone rather skilled (a game magazine editor who was also a real life biker) playing Tourist Trophy alongside some racing instructor on the same track on the same bike in real life. They were pretty much neck and neck the whole time, demonstrating how close a simulation the game actually is in many respects (I personally found it bloody hard, but then I didn't really persist, plus I'm probably a shite biker).

    I guess my point is that real track driving/riding is bloody hard. And so if you simulate it accurately the resulting game will likely be bloody hard. To the unskilled driver/rider (as we all are when compared to the pros) it may appear that the game isn't fair, but as FooAtari put so well, that doesn't mean the game isn't meeting its design brief and no game can be all things to all players.

  • FooAtari #158 5 years ago

    I knew about heel-toe'ing, but it never occured to me that car racers would actually blip the throttle on changing down

    Not so much now in a modern race car with semi-automatic sequential boxes, although it's still used in V8 Supercars. But in any car with a manual box definitly. Done in order to stop the rear wheel locking up as the cluth engages. Although im sure u know this :)

    I guess my point is that real track driving/riding is bloody hard

    Especially true of the monsters F1 drivers wrestled around the track in '67. F1 drivers these days have it easy in comparison ;)

    To the unskilled driver/rider (as we all are when compared to the pros) it may appear that the game isn't fair

    That's true. But for whatever reason some people want a game that accurately simulates racing/driving as cloesly as possible. Many of us can't afford to go racing for real. And the virtual race car is available whenever we feel like racing. Forza is fun, impressive and realistic. But comapred to other simulations it's definitly forgiving in some areas.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/07 @ 20:06

  • Les #159 5 years ago

    "I would suggest that Len has possibly been more riled than anyone else."

    Nah, it takes a lot more than that to rile me. :-) If you post anything that smells of criticism on the EG comments sections, there’s bound to be some people calling you a fanboy and a troll. Comes with the job. Being the selfless, “all I want is world peace” type of person, I try to educate them, even though I know chances of success are slim. But that’s just who I am…

  • myke6699 #160 4 years ago

    pole position my ass. more like MS stuck a 8 inch pole up EG ass.