kangarootoo Comments

Page 1 of 334

  • Why I think big console game sales are down

  • kangarootoo 30/11/2016

    @Bagpuss

    I think the price for the core game is kind of reasonable. I don't mean that I can happily drop 55 on a game every other week, but when you consider the cost of making the things, and what games used to cost (you could easily pay 40 for a console game in the late 80s, FORTY QUID! Accounting for inflation, that is probably a million dollars in modern money).

    The season passes and DLC however, I am totally with you there. Open world game costs 50 and gives you maybe 20 hours of gameplay. Season pass /special edition costs 25 and gives you about 3 hours more.

    And not even close to the best 3 hours. When will we as an industry realise that horde and survival modes are sub-par nonsense, costing literally pennies to make and looking like it, and consign them to the bin where they belong? In a game where I explore levels and shoot things, the idea that putting me in a big room and asking me to shoot things, and then asking me to pay for the privilege, is like being given cold tea with an umbrella in it (I haven't thought that metaphor through at all, let's all just agree horde modes are a bad idea).
    Reply +25
  • kangarootoo 30/11/2016

    I think the last CoD game I was "excited" about was CoD 1.

    Has it taken this long for us to realise that CoD's increasing journey down the path of boring near-future military scifi is..... boring?

    Dishonored 2 underperforming is a shame, but I'm part of the problem as I was very much looking forward to it but still haven't bought it. I literally have too many other games on the go, and I don't need another one just now.
    Reply +4
  • Ubisoft's VR line-up will support cross-platform play

  • kangarootoo 30/11/2016

    I rather like the look of Star Trek: Bridge Crew. Anyone who has played Artemis will know the sort of vibe that can develop. Reply +4
  • kangarootoo 30/11/2016

    Strong work Ubisoft. Reply +2
  • Oblivion is now backwards compatible on Xbox One

  • kangarootoo 30/11/2016

    Oblivion was the first thing I played on my first HDTV, and still the only XB game for which I got all achievements.... until I bought DLC, and that suddenly turned my clean slate into 1000/1250 :(

    Stopped playing at around 120 hours.

    The enemy scaling was just silly (bandits running up to you on a deserted road, all dressed in glass armour, and looking like they were on the same mission to save the world that you were), and chock full of the terrible animation that has is pretty much part of the ES genre), but aside from that an excellent game.

    Playing Skyrim on PS4 now, which I never finished on last gen due to its annoying preference for miles of landscape that is too bloody steep to walk on, but also still an excellent roaming about type game.


    Regards my comment about animation, it has struck me that I think we have become blind to the character animation and character development in general within Bethesda RPG games. They do an amazing job of building a world, and I love both ES games and Fallout, but by Buddha they cannot make a character with life in it. NPCs running about like marionettes, conversations with characters that sound like they are reading a bus time table, NPCs in a giant world all voiced by about 5 actors who don't even put on a different voice each time (not the actor's fault, I know full well the influence that good voice direction has on such things).

    And as I said above, it is like we've become blind to it all, like it has just become part of the genre. Look at the characters in Witcher 3, and see how much life is in even the randoms you meet by the side of the road. Look at the opening sequence of The Last of Us for how to put emotion into the beginning of the end of the world, and then look at Fallout 4's opening sequence with characters puppeting their way along a road shouting "Noooooooo!"

    To reiterate, I love ES games and Fallout, and I'm glad I've become blind to their character flaws. Worthy of note and discussion though. Somebody disagree with me! :)
    Reply +2
  • No Man's Sky's long-awaited update brings its galaxy back to life

  • kangarootoo 29/11/2016

    @ourumov

    For exactly the reasons you give, I don't ever play with randoms. I love coop though, when played with people I know. Not that returning to NMS is a priority for me at the moment, but being able to play coop with a couple of friends at a future point would be a big draw.
    Reply +1
  • Lucio voice actor talks Overwatch fame and his unlikely friend in the biz

  • kangarootoo 29/11/2016

    @dirtyeffinhippy

    Well thanks for the personal reply, kudos to you. I guess lesson learned for the next time. Maybe recording everybody locally during the call might give you a backup you could use if the same thing happens again? I was interested in the content, but I'm afraid the quality meant I didn't stick around. Perhaps it isn't a common issue, and it won't happen again, or maybe there are other options besides OBS. If it does happen again though, I'd honestly consider not whether releasing it is the right step. It isn't for me to tell you how to do your thing, but as a new listener, it didn't give the impression that I'm sure you'd prefer me to have, and for every big gob like me there are going to be a number of less vocal listeners that simply don't come back.
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @Bertie

    "a couple of them say they've been in journalism for years"

    I'm not sure what that really means these days (meow, milk to table 4, etc).

    All power to them getting the interview set up. If only the chap with decent audio had set the bar for everyone else to meet. It just made such a poor impression on me, not just because it was unpleasant to listen to, but also because it left me thinking "...and nobody among you thought this wasn't acceptable to broadcast?" High-quality is an attitude.
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 23/11/2016

    I couldn't stand to watch the interview video, the audio quality was so bad. That surely isn't from a professional website? Reply +1
  • San Francisco public transport hacked, passengers get free rides

  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    @Kitano123

    It is arguably both.

    It is definitely victim blaming.
    Reply -2
  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    @Nodka

    Well as you seem to think that connecting a city-wide travel network to the internet is "technology moving too fast", I can only assume you are a time traveller from the late 80s, and so may I bid you welcome to 2016. I hope you enjoy your stay. May I recommend you enjoy our range of fizzy drinks, which contain far fewer toxic additives than you are used to.
    Reply -2
  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    @orangpelupa

    "I think depending on the case, the responsibility can be on both the perpetrator and victim."

    Well I'd be keen to hear of an example. But maybe another day :)
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    @orangpelupa

    "but this is not a girl or a private house. This is a big body."

    I understand your point, but as a counter to mine it is lacking. My point was about your attributing responsibility to the victim, the principle of which has nothing to do with the nature of the victim.


    Perhaps it is simply the wording, as clearly your use of "on the flipside" was the thing I took issue with.

    Let's explore some different phrasing.

    "Whilst the public transport system would clearly benefit from increased security to protect against such attacks, blame for the disruption and the resulting cost to legitimate customers, lies entirely with the perpetrators."

    How does that sound? Would you agree with that?

    Edit: OK, read your edited post. Yes a company holding private data has a legal responsibility to protect that data. I'm not sure that applies in this case, as private data was not part of the issue. My point was that moral responsibility lies entirely with those who caused the service disruption, and perhaps I made it about moral responsibility by my interpretation of your comment.
    Reply +3
  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    @orangpelupa

    "they should have kept their software and security measures up to date."

    #victimblaming

    To be more specific, it isn't "on the flipside", any more than it is to say that the victim of a burglary should have stronger locks on their windows and doors, or that a girl should dress conservatively on a night out to avoid unwanted attention, or that a black kid should avoid walking into rich white neighbourhoods to avoid being shot by security? See how these sorts of examples escalate easily?

    The reason the examples escalate easily is because the underlying logic of what I accept was a casual statement, is abhorrent. Security is a necessity in our lives because of dishonest people. It is not a moral or practical obligation, that redefines the victim as part of the problem, if they do not adequately supply it.

    To casually state "on the flipside" suggests, as in the coin at the root of the saying, that both sides are equal. That perpetrator and unprepared victim, are equal. They are not.
    Reply +5
  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    I'm always baffled that people ask for a ransom for this sort of thing. Like a ransom would ever, ever be paid in a case like this. "Why yes, we'd be absolutely delighted to create a fiscal incentive to have this shit happen five times a week."

    And as the first poster says, the costs resulting from this will be passed on to the customers in due course, because where else would the costs possibly go? And those costs will equal the lost fares, plus the additional expense of all the resulting dicking about. "Fight the power" /sigh
    Reply +5
  • Final Fantasy 15 review

  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    @paulnettle

    Great story bro.

    I only wish all comments could be about how the subject matter of the article in question isn't the subject matter of a different article that would be of more interest to the poster. It makes for riveting reading.

    I'm not remotely interested in this game either, but there I was of the mind that meant I had nothing of value to contribute to this thread. You certainly taught me a lesson.
    Reply +9
  • Huge Hitman update makes unlocks work offline

  • kangarootoo 28/11/2016

    Well it is a step, but if you still have to be online to complete challenges and unlock items, there is still barely a reason to play without an online connection.

    It hasn't bothered me personally (not once they made the connection, and sorted the disconnection behaviour), but it does still seem somewhat pointless. They must have a reason for requiring online, but unless I've missed something, they haven't given a reason publicly. I presumed it was just to reduce piracy, but who knows.
    Reply +3
  • Mass Effect Andromeda's new Normandy has no loading screens throughout

  • kangarootoo 26/11/2016

    @Naetharu

    I'm a VCS generation kid too (and ZX81, just to avoid any accusations of console bias ;) ).

    The graphics in The Hobbit text adventure used to rock my world. I agree, we just couldn't imagine back then where game graphics would go in our lifetimes. It makes me sigh sometimes, that people critisise modern game visuals for less than perfection, because they just don't realise how amazing it is they even exist.
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 25/11/2016

    @Naetharu

    I think one of the amazing things about GTAV is how the world can appear full of life, even though it is built of many common assets. An awful lot of tarmac, a lot of pavement, a relative handful of building variants in any district, but all all with low cost dressing to add that variety. Even to the point that certain districts have specific vehicle types that turn up a lot - which reduces the cost in memory, but also makes good narrative sense>

    With ME, I may simply be off the mark. I recall there being some large unique textures and models in each section, large screens showing bespoke content, bespoke models and textures such as those in the cockpit area, some large functional items such as the galaxy map. If that were not the case, I can't see why they would have ended up sectioning the ship up. Outside of the ship, I recall some pretty big levels, but those levels were much more consistent in terms of assets compared toi the ship.

    I played ME 1 a long time ago, so I might be misremembering all of this :)
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 25/11/2016

    @Matthew_Hornet

    Just checked your video link. You can see there is a huge amount of reuse of assets and textures across the ship, meaning comparatively little needs to be swapped in and out of memory as the player moves around.

    That is in no way a critisism btw, making sensible choices that strike the right balance between art and practical use is good development. In this instance, regularity in the environment also makes narrative sense - space craft don't typically have different wallpaper in every room :)
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 25/11/2016

    @Matthew_Hornet

    Oh for sure, nothing is impossible, it always comes down to the individual content in question. The amount of asset reuse is a factor, the viewing distance, even the speed of movement (the quicker you can go, the sooner you can see new content, and so the quicker it needs to be loaded into memory during constant movement). Many racing games heavily restrict reverse movement (often resetting the player after a few seconds or metres of going in the wrong direction), which means they can chuck away stuff behind you much sooner to make room for loading in the assets ahead of you. Compare that to a free roaming game, where enough content needs to be loaded for movement in any direction.

    So the issue is not about indoors or outdoors as such, it is about how many unique assets there are in each part of the world, and all of the unique constraints and behaviours such as I touched on above. My point was indeed a generalism, but a reliable one - that a series of small but individual rooms, between which there is little reuse, means more loading is likely required than for acres of the same few fences, trees and haystacks. And if you can't load in new data quick enough to allow free movement, you need either low memory choke points (like a quite plain lift) or loading screens.
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 23/11/2016

    @Naetharu

    "Given that games like Farcry, GTA V and so forth manage enormous worlds with seamless transitions the news that EA managed to create a small internal environment without the need to instance it off strikes me as rather underwhelming."

    The comparison isn't really a fair one, and the open world aspect is in fact exactly the reason that type of game can be streamed in easily. Games like Farcry and GTA are using a huge set of repeated assets (even putting building parts aside, which are still repeated a lot within a given district in GTA, just think how much grass or tarmac there is in those games), that can either be kept in memory all the time, or at least swapped in and out at a much more gentle rate as the player moves around the environment.

    A room based game like ME is much less able to stream content in the same way, as each room has more bespoke content and has to be more completely be brought into memory when it is needed.

    Size isn't everything :)
    Reply 0
  • No Man's Sky studio breaks silence, announces base building and more in huge Foundation update

  • kangarootoo 25/11/2016

    Seems fair to give them a shot. I played NMS, wished for more, traded it. No ill feeling remains though. I think this is what happens when you put non-PR people in charge of their own PR, and everyone has probably learned a lesson. I wish them well. Reply +72
  • Capcom Vancouver defends Dead Rising 4's "super-polarising" changes

  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @Stoatboy

    Thanks for the reply.

    I would argue that DR didn't force you to make a series of interesting decisions, but to in fact make one decision right at the start - level up, or play the story. The open world roaming couldn't easily coexist with the time story, and so you had top pick one or the other.

    "There's no jeopardy, bar the second-to-second fight to stay alive"

    But that second to second fight to stay alive shouldn't be downgraded to a suffix. THAT is in fact the gameplay. Dying Light was chock full of tension, because it very much centred itself on the struggle you describe, and didn't have to lumber you with any conflicting mechanics. Anybody who has taken a low level character outside a compound at night in DL, will surely agree that tension was present in spades (despite pretty much following the side-quest structure).

    I don't deny that timer based gameplay can bring a lot of value, I am not down on timers overall. I just again make the case I made in my other reply, that DR was the type of game you describe, and that is exactly why the timer was jarring. The game was not built to have the timer as its spine, and yet the timer influenced play to such an extent that the player was forced (as I mentioned above) to make a singular decision to either ignore it (and take the consequences) or abide by it (and have their options greatly limited as a result).
    Reply +1
  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @Awesome_Matrix

    I agree that building up a list of side quests, with no sense of urgency, is the elephant in the room of many open world games.

    Take any Elder Scrolls game. "Save us from the pressing danger of hell gates and dragons brave adventurer!" Right, I'll get right to it, but only after I've become head of the local librarians' union and helped this old lady find her lost backed potato recipe.


    That said, my complaint of DR was that they HAD in fact made exactly that kinfd of open world game, and the addition of a timer didn't solve that, it simply conflicted with it. It was still a game that followed the side-quest model you describe, with the condition that a bunch of your side-quests will fail if you roam about the countryside.

    And each of those scenarios you describe, where is the fun in that? If it was about difficult decisions, conflicting choices that couldn't lead to having cake and eating it, I would understand. But they put in a bunch of content, which you could only enjoy if you simply ignored the conflicting content. I don't consider ignoring survivors and side-quests completely to be a tough decision, just a smaller experience.

    The real thorn in the side for me was that if you played the main game from the start, you would reach the end quite under-powered. Whereas if you did a load of running about and side-missioning, and THEN started the main story, you would find it considerably easier. And then in a classic case of blaming the user, people would say that was the "right" way to play it, despite the game in way accommodating that experience in its design. Now I like emergent play as much as anyone, but it is no replacement for oversight in design.

    Edit: thank to you also, don't want to give the impression that I only appreciated one reply :) Also, I have no idea what about a third of your reply was about :P
    Reply +4
  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @viniciustourinho

    Ah fair enough. This reminds me of the protagonist of the Condemned series, who in the first game was a beat up middle height every-guy, but in the second game became a version of Dave Grohl after a lot of bench pressing.

    Incidentally, the voice-in-your-ear lady in Condemned 1 was a rounded black lady in her early 50s, who in the sequel became younger, slimmer, and lighter in skin tone.

    :(
    Reply +1
  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @viniciustourinho

    "He is now just another generic white male protagonist."

    I don't recall him ever being anything else?
    Reply +8
  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @sizu_sizu

    "Why does Capcom Vancouver need to defend their design decisions?"

    Because they are selling their game for money, to a customer that needs to be convinced to part with it.

    It is called PR.
    Reply +7
  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    About damned time that timer was binned. It was a poor choice right from the start. I know some people liked it, of course taste varies, but I cannot believe that a majority of players benefited from it.

    "the timer limitation lent itself to multiple playthroughs and created an unusual degree of tension"

    The timer lends itself to multiple playthroughs in the same way that being kicked in the balls lends itself to having bruised balls.

    Anyway, in the quoted sentence we see the explanation - the continued ability of our industry to use "tension" as a justification for "annoyance" resulting from conflicting values. There is no shortage of games that are very tense, but that find a way to create tension without betraying the core values of the title. A time limit in an open world exploration game is a striking conflict, and "tension" is no justification. Nobody has ever given a good explanation for that timer, they just run directly to "tension" and then act like everything has been explained.


    Rant over :)

    Now who disagrees with me?
    Reply -1
  • UK retailer wants you to buy Nintendo Switch for 198.50 right now

  • kangarootoo 24/11/2016

    @Phishfood

    "GBP is unstable but if you pay now they will then purchase Japanese Yen with your money and then use it to buy the NS on release."

    It is this, clearly.

    Those suggesting this is a marketing stunt, you really think a marketing department said "The new campaign is... let people register pre-orders"?
    Reply 0
  • Watch Dogs 2 "seamless multiplayer" finally rolling out a week from launch

  • kangarootoo 23/11/2016

    "Hack into a rival hacker's world"

    This was a pain in the arse in the first one, and I eventually switched it off, despite losing a skill tree branch. Hoofing it along a road, chasing an enemy in a car, when up pops a message telling me I have to go and find someone hiding behind a park bench. No thanks.
    Reply +5
  • Black Friday deals for Tuesday 22nd November

  • kangarootoo 22/11/2016

    Dying Light is awesome. You'd have to be dead inside to pass it by (that is the only pun I'll ever make, and it isn't even very good, remember this day). Reply +1
  • Cancelled plans for Sleeping Dogs 2 were ridiculously ambitious

  • kangarootoo 22/11/2016

    At the risk of sounding like an ass, none of it sounds that ambitious really for a AAA open world game. In fact even the analysis of cloud save data might just boil down to be no more complicated than essentially connecting a leaderboard (the player crime values) with a slider (the police difficulty).

    And I'd have bet money the coop companion app feature wouldn't have gone the distance. That sort of thing seemed to be all the rage for a while, and then quietly kind of went away.
    Reply +19
  • Watch Dogs 2 launch sales nowhere near Watch Dogs 1

  • kangarootoo 21/11/2016

    "Watch Dogs 2 has had nothing like the same promotional push"

    This is probably responsible to a greater degree that many here are giving credit for. Marketing spend directly translates to sales at that end of the market.
    Reply +4
  • "The best video game I've ever played about LA" is out now

  • kangarootoo 18/11/2016

    @Sagara_Sousuke_x

    "See? It works both ways."

    Well of course it doesn't (see how I spotted your sarcasm there, eyes like a hawk me). Which is why it is a very good job I never suggested any such thing.

    Now this is the bit where one of us (clue... it's me!) who once read a page about logical fallacy* and feels all clever and superior, drops a "strawman" accusation, and then drops the mic.


    *this is my my sarcasm. I learned about logical fallacies when the internet was still in short trousers. I'm ahead of the curve.
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 18/11/2016

    @NewYork

    Are you suggesting that churlish comments should now directly drive EG's editorial choices?

    "Wait, hold the press, someone on the internet said something petulant!"
    Reply +10
  • The 48-hour Elite Dangerous rescue mission to the edge of the galaxy

  • kangarootoo 17/11/2016

    What an awesome story. I'm just a console player these days, and this is the first gen I've not had an XB. Everyso often a game comes along that really makes me miss PC gaming, and currently this is it. Really hoping for a PS4 version of this. Epic stuff. Reply +4
  • Chris Metzen on why he needed to leave Blizzard

  • kangarootoo 17/11/2016

    @S3M

    "I wonder if he was in fact asked to leave"

    Because the current explanation somehow doesn't seem reasonable or entirely believable?

    Some people always need a conspiracy.
    Reply +14
  • The Elder Scrolls Online is free to play tomorrow through Sunday

  • kangarootoo 16/11/2016

    @romelpotter

    That is at times my experience too. Though I play a lot of ESO, and I enjoy it, other people hoofing it through dungeons ahead of me can be annoying. That said, it doesn't seem to happen that often. I tend to play coop with one or two others, and most of the time there is just us. These aren't group dungeons, so it isn't impossible to see other players, but it doesn't seem to be very frequent. I think it depends a lot of which part of the world you are in. The towns in many of the earlier accessed locations are typically rammed, with more remote towns much less so.
    Reply +1
  • Sharing Watch Dogs 2 genitalia got someone banned from PSN

  • kangarootoo 15/11/2016

    @RawShark

    "I got a warning for sharing a pic of Tearaway on the Vita once. I had given the King Squirrel a particularly immature crown."

    That is the un-curated content I mentioned though. It at least makes sense that if the game maker can't control what you add to their game, they have to moderate it retroactively.

    If the offending content is already IN the game, that is what makes this absurd in my view.
    Reply +6
  • kangarootoo 15/11/2016

    This banning makes no sense. The game was published on the platform, the platform has tools that allow a developer to restrict the sharing of in-game content (which were clearly not required by Sony to be enabled in this instance), and the platform also includes parental restriction controls that can limit a user's ability to see shared content.

    Bottom line, it should not be possible to be banned by sharing curated content that exists and is shareable within a controlled platform. If this were an open platform, or un-curated content (such as player uploaded content) that would be different, but it isn't. This type of material only exists in a PS4 game if Sony are OK with it existing.

    Either the content shouldn't be there, or the ability to share it should be restricted, or players should be allowed to share it. To allow curated game content to exist, and to allow players to share it, but to ban them if they do, is ridiculous.
    Reply +43
  • GAME to open concessions in WHSmith

  • kangarootoo 11/11/2016

    @CalamityJames

    Fond memories of compilation sets. Back in the Speccy days, just getting all of them to load (needing different tone and volume values on the tape deck for each) was a game mechanic all of its own.

    I think the last game I bought in WHSmith was "The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole" text adventure on C64, on sale for 29p.
    Reply +4
  • The ultimate Final Fantasy 15 collector's item will cost you almost 375,000

  • kangarootoo 11/11/2016

    "If you're in the market for one, would set you back 119,520 in the UK. It probably won't look quite as swish as the Audi R8 Star of Lucis, mind."

    I reckon you could probably tart it up a bit with the change from 375k.
    Reply +21
  • Three hours in and Dishonored 2 remains a gleeful laboratory of vindictiveness

  • kangarootoo 10/11/2016

    @scuffpuppies

    I don't think you are replying to me, but rather to the poster to whom I was replying, but I appreciate the info all the same :)
    Reply 0
  • kangarootoo 10/11/2016

    @richardpoole

    "The AI seems broken too, the slightest glimpse and they run to investigate"

    Do you mean broken, or just difficult? Is it inconsistent, or just tough? If it is consistent, it isn't really broken, is it?
    Reply +5
  • Skyrim on PS4 Pro runs at native 4K - but there's a catch

  • kangarootoo 10/11/2016

    Glad to see that Bethesda have finally broken the old habit of poor frame rates in their engine..... oh. Reply +4
  • Watch: Ian does some terrible things to virtual snowboarders in Steep

  • kangarootoo 09/11/2016

    I think this looks very promising. I've been wating for years for a snowboarding game that leans toward realistic, maybe this will finally be the one. Reply +1
  • Epic Games founder protects 7000 acres of US wilderness via $15m donation

  • kangarootoo 09/11/2016

    @NLRikkert

    Oh who givea a fuck why he did it, seriously. It still got done, which is surely what matters, you glass half empty nob.
    Reply +3
  • kangarootoo 09/11/2016

    Well done that man.

    Permanently never means permanently of course, but it helps.

    On a related note, anyone of a similar mind might want to consider some kind of service (there are a few around) that upon their death, buries them in a new forest and plants a tree on them. Cutting down trees and building things in their place is much more involved from a legal perspective when dead bodies are involved :)
    Reply +9
  • Skyrim Special Edition patch causing game crashes on PC, PS4, Xbox one

  • kangarootoo 09/11/2016

    @markandrewroberts1

    I'm not using mods, and the PS4 crash reporting system gives the devs all the info they need, including a video of the moments before the crash.

    Anecdotally, of course mods will sometimes be the problem. That doesn't appear to be the case this time.

    Edit.
    "This is new territory for console players. Many don't seem to realise that a mod mucking up your game isn't Bethesda's fault."

    Umm. On console, yes it is. If the mod comes through the game itself, from a limited set approved for use, then it should be compatible (or at least, not "roll the dice" incompatible).
    Reply +5