The cycling thread Page 168

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  • MikeP 14 Nov 2012 10:39:09 2,075 posts
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    I had a go at something called a Functional Threshold Test last night.

    I'm using a host of gizmos and an online service called Trainerroad to set up some winter training plans. You have a speed/cadence sensor on the bike, heart rate monitor and a data stick on a laptop to collect the telemetry. As they've calibrated a load of turbo trainers, you select your model and it derives something they call 'Virtual Power.'

    It was pretty illuminating, but very, very hard work! It's not actual power output, and on-bike power meters that can do that are really expensive, but it does give you a baseline to work off.

    Here's the data, for those who are interested. This is a weird test, as for the main blocks you're trying to go as hard as you can sustain to set your personal baseline, rather than follow the supplied one.

    http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/103975

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • pistol 14 Nov 2012 15:22:53 13,019 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    Bought myself one of these for controlling the laptop when I'm on the turbo trainer.

    http://p.playserver1.com/ProductImages/8/2/1/0/1/7/0/2/20710128_300x300_1.jpg[/img]

    Seems to work really well. I hated having to stop to change what I was watching or mess with the volume on a long session.
    Could come in useful when doing the sufferfest videos.
  • pistol 14 Nov 2012 15:25:22 13,019 posts
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    MikeP wrote:
    I had a go at something called a Functional Threshold Test last night.

    I'm using a host of gizmos and an online service called Trainerroad to set up some winter training plans. You have a speed/cadence sensor on the bike, heart rate monitor and a data stick on a laptop to collect the telemetry. As they've calibrated a load of turbo trainers, you select your model and it derives something they call 'Virtual Power.'

    It was pretty illuminating, but very, very hard work! It's not actual power output, and on-bike power meters that can do that are really expensive, but it does give you a baseline to work off.

    Here's the data, for those who are interested. This is a weird test, as for the main blocks you're trying to go as hard as you can sustain to set your personal baseline, rather than follow the supplied one.

    http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/103975
    MikeP, what are you training for, goals etc?

    Your training should really be specific to get the most out of it.

    Winter training tends to be base mileage building at a fairly low heart rate percentage. Probably something like less than 80%. But a lot can depend on what your current condition is and how you currently burn energy.

    You're probably better taking a test at something like www.sportstest.co.uk. Garry Palmer who runs it is probably one of the most well known sports scientists in the UK. He's testing me for the 2nd time next week.

    Edited by pistol at 15:27:14 14-11-2012

    Edited by pistol at 15:27:56 14-11-2012
  • Psychotext 14 Nov 2012 16:53:18 55,032 posts
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    pistol wrote:
    Could come in useful when doing the sufferfest videos.
    Yeah, but it'll be hard to see the buttons with all the crying. :(

    Training related, I just ordered this: Time Crunched Cyclist. I can't really spend a ridiculous amount of time training at the moment because of other commitments, so I'd like to make the absolute best of the time I do have.

    I know a couple of coaches who have said it's good so I'm hoping it'll do the job for me.

    @MikeP: That looks interesting, reasonably priced too (I've been looking at online training recently and some of the prices are utterly insane). I wonder how close those calculated turbo power figures are and how much off you get because of machine age, drivetrain differences, tyre pressures, tyre differences and whatnot.

    One day I'll just buy myself a power meter... and then probably just use it twice. :D

    Edited by Psychotext at 17:08:19 14-11-2012
  • MikeP 14 Nov 2012 16:58:56 2,075 posts
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    Now they are very good questions.

    Previously, I've tended to bunker down in the winter and not done that much mileage, so this year I'm trying to keep some base fitness going so I feel less like Fatty Ullrich come Jan/Feb, and then build the intensity up.

    I don't have specific peak goals for events etc. if you were going to ask me for one I would like to get myself into Gold Sportive territory, time-wise. I know I'm capable of that as I was only a few mins outside of it last year, having waited 10 mins for a mate who'd snapped his chain, unbeknownst to me.

    I'm not really doing it for competitiveness sake, I just like being able to ride, fast, long and in comfort and to keep the weight off.

    The other thing I am doing is talking to someone about cross-training exercise and stretching off the bike, as doing just one sport can lead to problems through physical imbalance, and getting my setup checked.

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • MikeP 14 Nov 2012 17:18:14 2,075 posts
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    @Psychotext

    It is reasonable, and I know a couple of people who are using it to good effect.

    as for accuracy, it does vary on roller tension, tyre pressure, type of turbo etc. However, they are developing what they call a Rundown test which will calculate resistance in the system and therefore how much actual power you're applying at the wheel to overcome it.

    Once you have that then you can calibrate the system to give an accurate representation of your output, provided the other factors are kept constant.

    I think that's due relatively soon, they're collaborating with another firm to get it spot on.

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • pistol 14 Nov 2012 17:26:50 13,019 posts
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    MikeP wrote:
    Now they are very good questions.

    Previously, I've tended to bunker down in the winter and not done that much mileage, so this year I'm trying to keep some base fitness going so I feel less like Fatty Ullrich come Jan/Feb, and then build the intensity up.

    I don't have specific peak goals for events etc. if you were going to ask me for one I would like to get myself into Gold Sportive territory, time-wise. I know I'm capable of that as I was only a few mins outside of it last year, having waited 10 mins for a mate who'd snapped his chain, unbeknownst to me.

    I'm not really doing it for competitiveness sake, I just like being able to ride, fast, long and in comfort and to keep the weight off.

    The other thing I am doing is talking to someone about cross-training exercise and stretching off the bike, as doing just one sport can lead to problems through physical imbalance, and getting my setup checked.
    Gold Sportive times mean winter months spent building your endurance base, so riding hard will defeat the object. Do long slower rides all through the winter and then around Feb time start introducing threshold sessions. Whether it be on the road or turbo. You can then start fine tuning and doing more hilly routes to develop your climbing etc.

    A sportstest will give you many things but at the minimum you'll get your MHR so you can work out your training zones. Throughout the winter I try and stay under 80%.

    If you ride too hard in the winter you won't teach your body to source energy from bodyfat. It will crave glycogen from food. The slower you go the more it will grab from bodyfat too. If you are overweight you can also introduce fasted turbo sessions. Not always easy when you have to go out to work. Maybe do a couple of sessions at the weekend. 60-120 mins is a good length if you can stand it and keep your heart rate really low.

    Even if you're not overweight, these fasted sessions will teach your body to be more energy efficient.

    I do one once a week and 90 mins is the min. To give you an idea, my MHR is 188 and my fasted sessions are between 118-128.

    Edited by pistol at 17:32:21 14-11-2012
  • MikeP 14 Nov 2012 17:38:48 2,075 posts
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    Good info, thanks Pistol.

    Trainerroad does have plans that focus on the endurance base, so now I've got a decent idea of my current baseline I can start working on it. I've not signed up for much next year, but the first proper outing will be The Hell of the Ashdown in late Feb.

    That's probably going to be a bit of a jolly as I superdomestique my fat mates around the course :D

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • urban 14 Nov 2012 18:16:38 11,067 posts
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    @Psychotext

    I'm still not convinced that a lot of the field don't use every medical method available to win.
  • Psychotext 14 Nov 2012 18:31:27 55,032 posts
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    Is that in reply to a post of somewhere like 5 pages ago? :D
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 01:16:25 55,032 posts
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    Ugh... should have eaten before going on the trainer. Dead now. =/
  • pistol 15 Nov 2012 11:28:02 13,019 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    pistol wrote:
    Could come in useful when doing the sufferfest videos.
    Yeah, but it'll be hard to see the buttons with all the crying. :(

    Training related, I just ordered this: Time Crunched Cyclist. I can't really spend a ridiculous amount of time training at the moment because of other commitments, so I'd like to make the absolute best of the time I do have.

    I know a couple of coaches who have said it's good so I'm hoping it'll do the job for me.

    @MikeP: That looks interesting, reasonably priced too (I've been looking at online training recently and some of the prices are utterly insane). I wonder how close those calculated turbo power figures are and how much off you get because of machine age, drivetrain differences, tyre pressures, tyre differences and whatnot.

    One day I'll just buy myself a power meter... and then probably just use it twice. :D
    I'm potentially going down the power meter route next year but won't buy one outright. You can rent them for a month or so to give you an idea how they can benefit your training. Unless you really know what you are doing it's a lot of money to pay outright. We're discussing in at my sportstest next week.

    Edited by pistol at 11:28:36 15-11-2012
  • gang_of_bitches 15 Nov 2012 11:40:17 5,644 posts
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    pistol wrote:
    MikeP wrote:
    Now they are very good questions.

    Previously, I've tended to bunker down in the winter and not done that much mileage, so this year I'm trying to keep some base fitness going so I feel less like Fatty Ullrich come Jan/Feb, and then build the intensity up.

    I don't have specific peak goals for events etc. if you were going to ask me for one I would like to get myself into Gold Sportive territory, time-wise. I know I'm capable of that as I was only a few mins outside of it last year, having waited 10 mins for a mate who'd snapped his chain, unbeknownst to me.

    I'm not really doing it for competitiveness sake, I just like being able to ride, fast, long and in comfort and to keep the weight off.

    The other thing I am doing is talking to someone about cross-training exercise and stretching off the bike, as doing just one sport can lead to problems through physical imbalance, and getting my setup checked.
    Gold Sportive times mean winter months spent building your endurance base, so riding hard will defeat the object. Do long slower rides all through the winter and then around Feb time start introducing threshold sessions. Whether it be on the road or turbo. You can then start fine tuning and doing more hilly routes to develop your climbing etc.

    A sportstest will give you many things but at the minimum you'll get your MHR so you can work out your training zones. Throughout the winter I try and stay under 80%.

    If you ride too hard in the winter you won't teach your body to source energy from bodyfat. It will crave glycogen from food. The slower you go the more it will grab from bodyfat too. If you are overweight you can also introduce fasted turbo sessions. Not always easy when you have to go out to work. Maybe do a couple of sessions at the weekend. 60-120 mins is a good length if you can stand it and keep your heart rate really low.

    Even if you're not overweight, these fasted sessions will teach your body to be more energy efficient.

    I do one once a week and 90 mins is the min. To give you an idea, my MHR is 188 and my fasted sessions are between 118-128.
    Went to a seminar on nutrition and training a couple of weeks back. Training side covered a lot on winter training with former pro Daniel Lloyd. He showed about 4 years worth of his own powertap data analysis and his improvement when changing his winter training from long base miles to shorter (1-2 hour) near peak sessions was pretty dramatic. He and a lot of pros also apparently like to ride with little or no energy supplements during a ride as kind of an equivalent to high altitude training. That is to say that when you enter the part of your season when you want to perform, your body has become better at drawing on fat reserves and will receive a kind of turbo boost from energy supplements while riding.

    Was actually an excellent session, I wish I'd taken better notes. If you get a chance to see either him or nutritionist Dr. Robert Child speaking I'd thoroughly recommend it.
  • MikeP 15 Nov 2012 12:48:08 2,075 posts
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    Without wishing to start a fight (because the Cycling thread is one of the finest on EG) is that advice directly contradictory to Pistol's then?

    I get the impression that the nutrition/metabolic stuff is very complex.

    At least I'm still at the "get off your arse and do more and you'll be betterer" point!

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • gang_of_bitches 15 Nov 2012 12:59:43 5,644 posts
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    MikeP wrote:
    Without wishing to start a fight (because the Cycling thread is one of the finest on EG) is that advice directly contradictory to Pistol's then?

    I get the impression that the nutrition/metabolic stuff is very complex.

    At least I'm still at the "get off your arse and do more and you'll be betterer" point!
    It certainly seems to be.

    Like so many things these days, differing opinions abound. This seminar was aimed at keen club level cyclists looking to do things like the Marmotte and other challenging events, but yes you're right, for most of us, just doing something has to be good.

    For me though, having started in early January this year doing long, cold, boring rides, I welcome anything that might reduce the length of my rides and chances of getting hypothermia and was encouraged to see that this wasn't the only way of preparing for a fun summer. It did seam that getting a power meter was pretty much essential for this training method and with even second hand costing 350 odd quid I'm not sure I can justify the expense right now, may be that I'd get one rather than upgrading wheels or something though.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 13:12:01 55,032 posts
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    MikeP wrote:
    I get the impression that the nutrition/metabolic stuff is very complex.
    It's extremely complex. Funny thing is, they're actually both technically right but in slightly different ways.

    There's an interesting (complex as fuck) discussion (argument) on it here: http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12887130 and details / discussion of a sweetspot routine here: http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12888793
  • MikeP 15 Nov 2012 14:29:19 2,075 posts
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    I read that and saw your "I'm confused, carry on!" comment :)

    Some really detailed information in there.

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • pistol 15 Nov 2012 15:27:25 13,019 posts
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    gang_of_bitches wrote:
    MikeP wrote:
    Without wishing to start a fight (because the Cycling thread is one of the finest on EG) is that advice directly contradictory to Pistol's then?

    I get the impression that the nutrition/metabolic stuff is very complex.

    At least I'm still at the "get off your arse and do more and you'll be betterer" point!
    It certainly seems to be.

    Like so many things these days, differing opinions abound. This seminar was aimed at keen club level cyclists looking to do things like the Marmotte and other challenging events, but yes you're right, for most of us, just doing something has to be good.

    For me though, having started in early January this year doing long, cold, boring rides, I welcome anything that might reduce the length of my rides and chances of getting hypothermia and was encouraged to see that this wasn't the only way of preparing for a fun summer. It did seam that getting a power meter was pretty much essential for this training method and with even second hand costing 350 odd quid I'm not sure I can justify the expense right now, may be that I'd get one rather than upgrading wheels or something though.
    It's a conflicting one and people do different things. There is evidence that both methods have their place and you really have to try various methods to see what works for you and also, good coaches will tailor to your own current condition. That's why getting tested is a great way to begin your training and whatever you do is tailored to your condition.

    My source is Dr Garry Palmer who you might want to google.

    Edited by pistol at 15:29:07 15-11-2012

    How I train in the coming months will depend on the results of next weeks test, but at the moment I train 5 days a week. One long ride and 4 turbo sessions. They are a mixture of fasted and threshold.

    Edited by pistol at 15:32:44 15-11-2012
  • Trafford 15 Nov 2012 16:40:56 5,966 posts
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    So very technical. Porridge and trail mix for me.
    Try and maintain 100 miles a week through the winter and keep under 13 stone.

    Goals for next year:
    Welsh Ride Thing in May
    Woodcock CtC in August.
    Cairngorms loop in October.
    New 29er frame and self build at some point.
  • MikeP 15 Nov 2012 18:00:40 2,075 posts
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    That sounds like a great list. Have you already built the new bike in your head?

    PSN ID: Mikenetic

  • Trafford 15 Nov 2012 18:41:40 5,966 posts
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    Pretty much, take the Karate Monkey and swap out for Salsa Fargo F+F, found a local dealer in town.
    Add hub gear. Keep the cable discs and Woodchipper bars.
    Nothing too flash, I'm getting divorced also :(

    Need a more touring specific machine and the KM is a size too small, ideally need 20" for longer rides.
  • gang_of_bitches 15 Nov 2012 20:19:19 5,644 posts
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    Trafford wrote:
    Pretty much, take the Karate Monkey and swap out for Salsa Fargo F+F, found a local dealer in town.
    Add hub gear. Keep the cable discs and Woodchipper bars.
    Nothing too flash, I'm getting divorced also :(

    Need a more touring specific machine and the KM is a size too small, ideally need 20" for longer rides.
    Sorry to hear about the divorce Trafford. Good list though, I really need to have some targets for next year, didn't feel I progressed at all beyond June really.
  • sam_spade 15 Nov 2012 20:26:31 15,745 posts
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    What's a good starting distance for a new rider. I went out for a 22 mile ride at the weekend and was done by 11 miles-unfortunately the wife had her phone off, so I had to complete the round trip.
  • Trafford 15 Nov 2012 20:52:29 5,966 posts
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    Thanks GoB, all my own fault really. I'm getting more & more used to the idea now after a few weeks.

    These are only goals, not accomplishments, the 70 mile Welsh Ride I'm committed to and the CTC should be okay over a week in the summer.
    Cairngorms is stretching it a bit logistics wise, choosing the right time of year for the Highlands..
    Might settle for the new section of Pennine Bridleway North instead.

    Just going to keep up the overnight bivy rides and see what happens.
    Off road touring is strange, average speed of 6mph is good.
    Most I've ever cycled is 150 miles over 2 days on my 42/18.

    Nice blog of a guy who did the 180 mile Cairngorm loop in 22 hours!

    Edited by Trafford at 20:55:50 15-11-2012
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 21:02:54 55,032 posts
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    Good to have something to look forward to though with everything else that's going on. Pretty much only my recent mountain biking trip that kept me together after the loss of my mother.

    You'll feel great if you make any / all of those. :)

    Edit - What sort of terrain Sam? Road bike / Mountain bike?

    Edited by Psychotext at 21:03:44 15-11-2012
  • Trafford 15 Nov 2012 21:24:40 5,966 posts
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    Sorry to hear about your Mum Pt, I never expressed my condolences.
    I lost my dad a few years ago, he got me into cycling as a youth. Taught me all the basic maintenance. I often have a little cry when I'm out riding and I think of him.
  • sam_spade 15 Nov 2012 21:36:41 15,745 posts
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    @Psychotext it's a hybrid bike, my father-in-law gave it me to use but I've not ridden a bike since the mid-90s. I just want to get some air in my lungs and help to lose a bit of weight.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 21:42:19 55,032 posts
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    Thanks Trafford. What were you riding on sam? Roads / paths / trails / mud?

    In some terrain I'd consider myself lucky to ride 15 miles. On the road I could probably do 100 miles (I'd kill myself from boredom though).

    How long were you out there? More than a couple of hours as a beginner / unfit person and you're really going to start feeling it. Especially on a clunker of a bike.
  • gang_of_bitches 15 Nov 2012 22:19:18 5,644 posts
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    @sam_spade

    I really wouldn't worry too much in the early days about going huge distances, you'll build up quickly enough, just make sure you're going a little further each time.
  • sam_spade 15 Nov 2012 23:54:14 15,745 posts
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    It was pretty varied as it was a canal towpath so at times, smooth tarmac but at one point it was such thick mud I had to get off. :D

    In all it took four hours :/
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