Depression Page 117

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  • RedSparrows 8 Mar 2013 11:32:53 22,776 posts
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    Of course: there are a range of benefits, which people in work, and out, apply for. Some might be forgotten about in a whirlwind of vindictive culling (particularly when people seem to forget that they can, or could, use/need them themselves).
  • Load_2.0 8 Mar 2013 11:38:32 19,300 posts
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    sajasanman wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:


    The actual disturbing thing is how the narrative seems to be about any benefit, not just fraud.
    Well benefits have always had some stigma, and imo it's not always unfounded. But at the end of the day what society do you want to live in? One that leaves you to die in the road like in Africa if you're poor and ill, or one that protects vulnerable people?
    The internet, where extreme ends of the spectrum are the only options.

    Edited by Load_2.0 at 11:39:08 08-03-2013
  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 11:42:06 27,355 posts
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    The main issue is that there is a culture, which is more prevalent now than ever, where it is popular to declare anyone who is on any benefit as a scrounger who has never worked in their life. This is at odds with the fact that we are currently in a climate where more people than ever before have been placed on benefits through no fault of their own after a lifetime of working and paying into the system.

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  • TheSaint 8 Mar 2013 11:44:25 14,430 posts
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    sajasanman wrote:
    well how about in the middle then like america where you get carted to a third rate hospital while having a heart attack because you have no insurance?
    Probably better than Mid Staffs though.
  • LeoliansBro 8 Mar 2013 11:52:30 44,308 posts
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    DM, in fairness it isn't that. How about this as a definition:

    There are those who can work, and they should work. There are those who can't work, and they should be supported by those who can work. But there is a grey area in the middle of those who feel they can't work, and it's how generous or how draconian we are to those people that causes conflict. And there are multiple drivers behind the level of generosity beyond the sympathetic element.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Dougs 8 Mar 2013 11:56:27 67,822 posts
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    It's about finding the types of work they could do though, and I'm sure most people with disabilities can do some kind of work and want to. You just don't try and make them do something they are blatantly incapable of doing. Which is where a lot of job referrals fall down, as it's about hitting targets, not what is right for the individual.
  • Chopsen 8 Mar 2013 12:01:33 16,020 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    It's about finding the types of work they could do though, and I'm sure most people with disabilities can do some kind of work and want to.
    Exactly, and I have actually seen this work for some people. Admittedly in a minority, but baby steps and all that. The previous system was quite binary. If you got signed off for doing your current role due to something, it was quite easy to lapse in to being labelled as incapable of any work ever. Which is obviously not the case for many, possibly most, people.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 8 Mar 2013 12:02:45 6,652 posts
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    I'm in the back to work group.

    Diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic about ten years ago, went through about 5 or 6 years of a cycle of work followed by nervous breakdown.

    The reality of the back to work group isn't as bad as is claimed in my experience, I've had two work assessment interviews, and the women was fine. She put absolutely no pressure on me, one phrase she used was "whether it takes 6 months or 6 years"

    The last year and a half I've been doing a couple of days a week voluntary work; so if I can handle that; theoretically the right job, I could manage.

    Edited by bitch_tits_zero_nine at 12:06:00 08-03-2013
  • Dougs 8 Mar 2013 12:05:54 67,822 posts
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    It's horrendously complicated, as employers need to be on board and there needs to be targetted action by properly trained people. Not the likes of me (in my early career). All of which is costly.
  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 12:08:50 27,355 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    DM, in fairness it isn't that. How about this as a definition:

    There are those who can work, and they should work. There are those who can't work, and they should be supported by those who can work. But there is a grey area in the middle of those who feel they can't work, and it's how generous or how draconian we are to those people that causes conflict. And there are multiple drivers behind the level of generosity beyond the sympathetic element.
    Dougs wrote:
    It's about finding the types of work they could do though, and I'm sure most people with disabilities can do some kind of work and want to. You just don't try and make them do something they are blatantly incapable of doing. Which is where a lot of job referrals fall down, as it's about hitting targets, not what is right for the individual.
    These are both valid points

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  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 12:10:01 27,355 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    The reality of the back to work group isn't as bad as is claimed in my experience, I've had two work assessment interviews, and the women was fine. She put absolutely no pressure on me, one phrase she used was "whether it takes 6 months or 6 years"
    My understanding is that you can only be in the work group for a year before you're put on JSA, so I think she may be telling porkies.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:13:37 08-03-2013

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  • Dougs 8 Mar 2013 12:10:59 67,822 posts
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    Paper cuts nick. Can't be too careful.
  • Deckard1 8 Mar 2013 12:12:13 28,087 posts
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    Exactly. What about those people that hold up signs in the street, surely anyone can do that. If a piece of wood had a wider skill set than me, that would be the time to end it I think.
  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 12:12:33 27,355 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    Dougs wrote:
    It's about finding the types of work they could do though, and I'm sure most people with disabilities can do some kind of work and want to.
    Exactly, and I have actually seen this work for some people. Admittedly in a minority, but baby steps and all that. The previous system was quite binary. If you got signed off for doing your current role due to something, it was quite easy to lapse in to being labelled as incapable of any work ever. Which is obviously not the case for many, possibly most, people.
    My mrs, who is something of a facist, always says 'why couldnt they sit at home and stuff envelopes?' or similar.
    O_O

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  • Dougs 8 Mar 2013 12:13:17 67,822 posts
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    Deckard1 wrote:
    Exactly. What about those people that hold up signs in the street, surely anyone can do that. If a piece of wood had a wider skill set than me, that would be the time to end it I think.
    In fact, if you're wheelchair bound, all the better. It's tiring standing up all day.

    I jest, I jest.
  • Deckard1 8 Mar 2013 12:15:58 28,087 posts
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    No you're right dougs. Even if they can't lift their arms they could just put the signs on little hats for them. Some people just don't want to work.
  • LeoliansBro 8 Mar 2013 12:17:47 44,308 posts
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    Joking aside, dignity does have to come into it somewhere.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 8 Mar 2013 12:18:22 6,652 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    The reality of the back to work group isn't as bad as is claimed in my experience, I've had two work assessment interviews, and the women was fine. She put absolutely no pressure on me, one phrase she used was "whether it takes 6 months or 6 years"
    My understanding is that you can only be in the work group for a year before you're put on JSA.
    ESA as far as I know is broken down into two groups, Support, and Work Related Activity.

    The Work Related Activity group is further broken down into two groups, Income Based, which is what you get if you have worked and paid your contribution; this can only be claimed for one year; and the other one, the name escapes me, which you can apply for once you have claimed the full year of income based.

    As far as i'm aware the application process for the second group is exactly the same.

    Good luck btw; I think the fact that you're putting yourself up to be shot at on here takes more balls than I've got. Or you're a masochist.

    Dunno.
  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 12:24:57 27,355 posts
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    You don't apply for the second group, you are placed into it automatically after your contributions run out (JSA itself is broken down similarly)

    Either way, after a year you are put on JSA.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:25:31 08-03-2013

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  • Load_2.0 8 Mar 2013 12:26:27 19,300 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    Dougs wrote:
    It's about finding the types of work they could do though, and I'm sure most people with disabilities can do some kind of work and want to.
    Exactly, and I have actually seen this work for some people. Admittedly in a minority, but baby steps and all that. The previous system was quite binary. If you got signed off for doing your current role due to something, it was quite easy to lapse in to being labelled as incapable of any work ever. Which is obviously not the case for many, possibly most, people.
    My mrs, who is something of a facist, always says 'why couldnt they sit at home and stuff envelopes?' or similar.
    O_O
    Given the fact people can work independantly from home straight forward tasks such as data entry would at least give structure and a path back to full time employment.

    The longer someone is out of the workforce the more miniscule the chance becomes of ever them building a career.
  • scott1987 8 Mar 2013 12:28:36 123 posts
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    have to say after reading this thread, i really hope you guys feel better about everything
  • Load_2.0 8 Mar 2013 12:29:07 19,300 posts
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    For what its worth I have assembled venetian blinds, stuffed envelopes, unloaded a fishing boat, put up race results at the track, done hour upon hour of dull data entry.

    I never thought I was above it or the people I worked with.
  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 12:29:21 27,355 posts
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    @nickthegun

    What about people who are terminally ill? Or have learning disabilities? Etc etc etc.

    Should people who are ill really be pressured into a system where they are forced into working when, in many cases they are trying to recover from either short-term illness or suffering from long-term chronic illness? Especially when there is a country-wide shortage in jobs atm. There's an established link between stress and its effects on both mental and physical health, and putting people under pressure to work whilst they are trying to recover could be counter-productive in the long-term by increasing the length of time before they overcome the reason they are ill in the first place.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:38:09 08-03-2013

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  • Deckard1 8 Mar 2013 12:30:02 28,087 posts
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    I still think I'm on to something with this sign thing. If its successful you could put them on motorways and stuff as well.
  • speedofthepuma 8 Mar 2013 12:32:47 13,292 posts
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    Yeah nick, stop advocating all those bad things.

    I lurk. If I've spoken to you, I'm either impassioned, or drunk.

  • spamdangled 8 Mar 2013 12:35:45 27,355 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    Dougs wrote:
    It's about finding the types of work they could do though, and I'm sure most people with disabilities can do some kind of work and want to.
    Exactly, and I have actually seen this work for some people. Admittedly in a minority, but baby steps and all that. The previous system was quite binary. If you got signed off for doing your current role due to something, it was quite easy to lapse in to being labelled as incapable of any work ever. Which is obviously not the case for many, possibly most, people.
    My mrs, who is something of a facist, always says 'why couldnt they sit at home and stuff envelopes?' or similar.
    O_O
    Given the fact people can work independantly from home straight forward tasks such as data entry would at least give structure and a path back to full time employment.

    The longer someone is out of the workforce the more miniscule the chance becomes of ever them building a career.
    I totally agree, and that is one of the other reasons, aside from ATOS, that I have resisted being signed off for so long and done everything I can to take any work - even voluntary/unpaid - just to keep active. It's the old axiom of "it's easier to get a job if you have a job".

    However, having done that for so long, it has come to the detriment of focussing on my health (both mental and physical), which is, I guess, why the shrink has now said that I should not even be looking for work, let alone working. I don't know. I can see where he's coming from, as I said in my original post last night. But I do utterly hate feeling unproductive.

    I just hope this whole "changing minds" department actually helps, and that the waiting list isn't too long.

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