Bioshock - **Contains spoilers** Page 98

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  • WrongShui 7 Jul 2008 12:24:49 6,609 posts
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    Well, that makes you all terrible human beings.

    Good day, sirs.
  • Quint2020 7 Jul 2008 12:36:11 3,484 posts
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    Phattso wrote:
    The difference is, they have a choice: Civ on the PC in its "pure" form, or Civ on the consoles in its more accessible form.

    Bioshock gives the second part of that equation, but what I wanted was the first. :)

    I'm with you on this.

    Although i still really enjoyed Bioshock, i just would have enjoyed it more if the RPG stuff had been deeper.
  • SomaticSense 7 Jul 2008 12:37:34 8,132 posts
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    It really says something when a game - which is incidentally nearing it's first anniversary - is still being discussed in it's original EG topic. Yes I'm aware it's back in the public eye due to the PS3 port, but that isn't really what everyone seems to be disscussing.

    I'll say it again, because I feel like it:

    Bioshock on Normal with Vita Chambers on - A throroughly entertaining and atmospheric title, which was among the best of last year. But was tarnished by a repsawn system that effectively broke the gameplay.

    Bioshock on Hard with Vitas off - The best game of last year by a fair few miles, with the atmosphere ramped up to extreme levels with the slightly more tense gameplay, and a level of creative combat open to the player quite unlike anything I've ever seen before. One of the greatest FPS games ever made, dumbed down or non-existent RPG elements or not.
  • thefilthandthefury 7 Jul 2008 12:39:36 24,983 posts
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    The Vita Chambers made no sense. I don't even know why they were in the game.

    You died? Reload your save then.
  • Deleted user 7 July 2008 12:40:37
    Yeah those fucking things. Why wasn't the place teeming with respawning baddies?
  • SomaticSense 7 Jul 2008 12:44:11 8,132 posts
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    They broke the game by allowing you to progressively plug away at enemies, even if you were constantly dying. Having a MP style respawn system in a story-focused single player game was a huge mistake, whether it fit into the mythos or not.

    I applaud Levine and his team for their overall vision and for making such an immense game, but they fucked up big time with that one. There are other ways of making your game more accessible and easier for newbies or people shit at games, but infinite respawns with the world staying as it is, is certainly not one of them.
  • Lateralaus 7 Jul 2008 12:46:06 1,091 posts
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    I started Halo3 on Heroic and its fucking hard towards the end. I restarted on legendary and I completely stuck on the 2nd or 3rd last level I havnt gone back to it in ages!

    Bioshock however, I've completed it 3 times and I still love it, I can see myself going back to it to play over again in the future

  • Quint2020 7 Jul 2008 12:46:16 3,484 posts
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    Bad Company has done pretty much the same thing, one thing that's holding me off buying it.

    All the urgency and intensity is lost with a system like that.
  • thefilthandthefury 7 Jul 2008 12:46:19 24,983 posts
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    Whenever I fought a Big Daddy and died, I'd reload my save. There's no point wasting ammo plugging away at it. If you reload you can try a different tactic and kill it quicker without wasting equipment/ammo.
  • AaronTurner 7 Jul 2008 12:47:08 7,669 posts
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    There is an option to turn off the Vitaq things? Might try that out.
  • Quint2020 7 Jul 2008 12:47:57 3,484 posts
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    Sticky grenades + explosive barrel + telekinesis = delicious ADAM!
  • SomaticSense 7 Jul 2008 12:56:05 8,132 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    There is an option to turn off the Vitaq things? Might try that out.

    It was in an update, so you'll need to download that if you haven't already. It also comes with an option to play it in a non-cropped aspect ratio.

    You also get a pretty meaty achievement for finishing the game on hard with them switched off. So not only do you get to play the game with it being a 100 times better, you also get rewarded with an achievement for your 'troubles' as well :)
  • brockenheimer 7 Jul 2008 13:03:46 675 posts
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    I'm halfway through, on medium with Vita Chambers on. Been that way since April and haven't been back to it since. Should I switch them off, would that make it a better game?

    I don't think I have enough imagination to kill Big Daddies in creative, ammo-conserving ways... :-(
  • Razz 7 Jul 2008 13:07:50 61,003 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    Whenever I fought a Big Daddy and died, I'd reload my save. There's no point wasting ammo plugging away at it. If you reload you can try a different tactic and kill it quicker without wasting equipment/ammo.
    Me too! But it took me a long time to understand vita chambers. I didn't know that the BD's energy stays the same when you respawn. That's stupid. :( Thank the Gods I'm from the old PC days of qSave and qLoad! ^__^

    For me though, the best method is still the Metroid Prime save points. Now /that/ was hardcore. Moreso than any PC game I've played before.

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  • Dirtbox 7 Jul 2008 15:20:56 77,656 posts
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    That was a top post, Yossarian (the long one) and pinpointed exactly what I meant with the dumbed down statement.

    But I have to disagree with you on your last paragraph. The only reason it is so wishy washy and easy is because it's a console game and by that token, caters to people who they don't grant the attention span to play through a game where you have to take risks and make descisions that effect the outcome and way you play the game from there on.

    Everything's at your fingertips and there's only a scant nod to some sort of forward thinking tactic in that you have to use a machine to switch plasmids.

    Once again, the core game is weak, there is nothing that sets it appart from even Unreal 2 appart from the voice in your ear, the lovely art work and the fetch factor.

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  • thefilthandthefury 7 Jul 2008 15:31:51 24,983 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    But I have to disagree with you on your last paragraph. The only reason it is so wishy washy and easy is because it's a console game and by that token, caters to people who they don't grant the attention span to play through a game where you have to take risks and make descisions that effect the outcome and way you play the game from there on.

    I'm sorry but I'd completely disagree with this. Why would a console game cater for this type of person? We aren't talking about Wii party games or anything. Console games can be and often are just as deep as any PC title. The only reason they sometimes seem 'cut back' is due to the control method. PC gamers and console gamers are only as different as an Xbox gamer and a Playstation gamer are.
  • Dirtbox 7 Jul 2008 15:34:54 77,656 posts
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    So you're saying that console games have to be easier because they have a shit control method?

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  • Razz 7 Jul 2008 15:38:42 61,003 posts
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    Well the PS3 is the pariah in this as games are allowed to have kb&m support. However I don't think there is the market for games with deep gameplay like those found on the PC. The gamers are just different. For instance I really don't think there is a market or a very limited market for something like Rome Total War, Europa Univasalis, Ceaser 3 etc on the home console market as the gamers are a different breed.

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  • thefilthandthefury 7 Jul 2008 15:40:33 24,983 posts
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    No, not easier at all. They just sometimes need to streamline certain elements of the controls. If it's a menu-heavy game then it's difficult to get it to work well on a console, for instance. It's nothing to do with console gamers wanting a different type of game in the slightest.
  • Dirtbox 7 Jul 2008 15:45:05 77,656 posts
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    There's a difference between streamlining and the points which are raised. I wasn't even talking about that aspect at all, merely that bioshock opens everything up to you from the off. You don't have to pick a skill tree, you can do everything and switch as and when you like. There are no risks at any point in the game beyond "shall I eat the girl's liver or not".

    They clearly did it to stop the enevitable whining when the kids realise they can't use such and such to get to that place there because 6 hours previously they were forced to make a choice.

    There's no depth and there's no replay value.

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  • thefilthandthefury 7 Jul 2008 15:49:55 24,983 posts
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    I honestly don't believe that's to cater to people on consoles though. As I said, I don't think there's any difference whatsoever between your 'normal' PC gamer and console gamer.

    Has nobody thought that maybe the dev's just wanted the game to be this way? That it was their vision and idea for it all along, for good or bad?
  • Deleted user 7 July 2008 15:51:05
    I used to be one and now I'm the other.

    /shrug
  • Phattso Moderator 7 Jul 2008 15:51:33 13,260 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    Has nobody thought that maybe the dev's just wanted the game to be this way? That it was their vision and idea for it all along, for good or bad?

    No. :) Their stated aim was to remake a new game using all the best bits from System Shock 2 in a compelling new setting with a twist.

    And then the first thing they did was remove all meaningful choices from the game. That has the whiff of a marketing skunk, not games design. ;)
  • Dirtbox 7 Jul 2008 15:53:56 77,656 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    I don't think there's any difference whatsoever between your 'normal' PC gamer and console gamer.
    I read that as casual PC gamer and hardcore console gamer, which is pretty clearly what you mean.

    The devs clearly had to make sacrifices and design compromises at many junctures to adapt for the console versions. This much you can spot in moments if you've played their previous games.

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  • Razz 7 Jul 2008 15:54:49 61,003 posts
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    So it's a bit like Civilsations Rev? Civ 4 with all of the deep bits chucked out for the great unwashed? :op

    I realise the hypocracy of a PC gamer calling the public the great unwashed.

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  • thefilthandthefury 7 Jul 2008 15:55:35 24,983 posts
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    Phattso wrote:
    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    Has nobody thought that maybe the dev's just wanted the game to be this way? That it was their vision and idea for it all along, for good or bad?

    No. :) Their stated aim was to remake a new game using all the best bits from System Shock 2 in a compelling new setting with a twist.

    And then the first thing they did was remove all meaningful choices from the game. That has the whiff of a marketing skunk, not games design. ;)

    How often do stated aims ever actually come about how they're promised though? I honestly think they created the game they wanted. They wanted Bioshock to be the way it is and to expect them to create a System Shock clone would be a bit pointless.
  • Dirtbox 7 Jul 2008 15:56:07 77,656 posts
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    Razz wrote:
    So it's a bit like Civilsations Rev? Civ 4 with all of the deep bits chucked out for the great unwashed? :op
    Pretty much, except the PC gamers didn't have to put up with the same inferior version.

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  • Razz 7 Jul 2008 15:56:29 61,003 posts
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    Clone? o_O Sequel surely.

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  • Razz 7 Jul 2008 15:57:30 61,003 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    Pretty much, except the PC gamers didn't have to put up with the same inferior version.
    :D

    I understand your comments from a couple days ago now. I thought you were just trolling. :/

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