Page 316 • The Official Doctor Who Thread • Non-Gaming • TV • Eurogamer.net

Darren 1 Oct 2012 14:27:01 7,627 posts
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GiarcYekrub wrote:
Seems straight forward to me they created one paradox to escape the first time which almost destroyed NYC a second paradox in the same location is very bad I don't think the fact the TARDIS can't land is a reason they are separated rather explicitly stated how fragile the fabric of space time in NYC has become

So, he could have landed somewhere else like London, England and caught a flight to New York from there. Granted, that's not very Doctor Who-like but it is common sense plus he'd have gotten some air miles.

The idea of having people pushed back in time where they're forced to live out their lives just doesn't work when the Doctor has a time-travelling TARDIS! The explanations given in this episode do not make sense and contradict what we've seen in other Angel episodes. If I remember in the David Tennant "Blink" episode, the Doctor was separated from the TARDIS by time so that made sense as he left clues so that someone else could bring the TARDIS back to him. There were no fragile space/time continuums in that!

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FalseAlibi 1 Oct 2012 14:44:30 89 posts
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Darren wrote:
So, he could have landed somewhere else like London, England and caught a flight to New York from there. Granted, that's not very Doctor Who-like but it is common sense plus he'd have gotten some air miles.

I thought it was pretty clear that it was the creating of a paradox / changing a fixed time point that would be the issue, as opposed to merely being unable to get to the location to do the interfering.

Going to well before or after the event or to a different location and then getting in contact / timetravelling away again would still change the Rory & Amy's death in old New York timeline and thus create a second paradox / time ripple that would fracture the previously paradox-damaged New York.

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Blerk Moderator 1 Oct 2012 14:47:09 47,766 posts
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That's how I understood it. It wasn't that he couldn't go and get them physically, the issue was taking them away would 'break' time. They had to stay there to ensure the stability of the timeline.

Doesn't explain why he couldn't go and visit, though. Unless he doesn't trust himself not to interfere.

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FalseAlibi 1 Oct 2012 14:51:12 89 posts
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..as for the episode - it was another good one in my book, with a fitting send-off.

As ever in this season there were little irks (such as too much Angel screen time, the fact that sending someone back multiple times doesn't gain any more time / energy than sending them back once as they're going to have the same amount of life / time energy as their aging is finite anyway etc..)

But they're only irks as the episodes are good and it's frustrating that they're not flawless. In the RTD era, they'd hardly register as there was little internal logic to catch out scripting oversites, and the trademark big reset button in the sky Deus Ex Machinas made them mute points anyway.

Edited by FalseAlibi at 14:53:37 01-10-2012

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jellyhead 1 Oct 2012 15:47:23 24,346 posts
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So were they stuck in that bedroom until they died? or the building or the whole of "paradox" New York?

I'll have to watch it again as i thought it was a bit... *shrugs*
... and i thought the Doctor was a bit of a tosser too.

I was watching The Ryder Cup before and afterwards so maybe i wasn't paying enough attention.

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nickthegun 1 Oct 2012 15:51:38 44,588 posts
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jellyhead wrote:
So were they stuck in that bedroom until they died? or the building or the whole of "paradox" New York?

It seemed to vacillate wildly. If it wasnt the latter, why the hell would the angels bother to bury them together.

In a grave a thousand miles away from where they died.

And, yes, it could have been a tribute by rorys dad, but how ouwld he have known the exact ages and dates?

But, in the grand scheme of things its a small nitpick in an episode full of massive bullshit.

(not that it was necessarily bad, its just that some of the logic and plot holes put prometheus to shame)

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Megapocalypse 1 Oct 2012 16:00:39 4,462 posts
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Blerk wrote:
Doesn't explain why he couldn't go and visit, though. Unless he doesn't trust himself not to interfere.

Hadn't he already seen the chapter title 'The Last Farewell' and so knew that he wouldn't see them again and it had been written down. Doing so would cause a paradox.

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Daryoon 1 Oct 2012 16:15:45 4,435 posts
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I think the point everyone everywhere seems to be missing is that, from a character development perspective, the Doctor has to leave them alone. He clung to them, and was disrupting their attempts at leading a normal life. If he went back and twisted time around (potentially risking catastrophic destruction) just to see them, he'd be going all Time Lord Victorious again. Hence the "don't travel alone" reminder.

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FogHeart 1 Oct 2012 16:29:21 715 posts
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Has anyone spotted this....

OK so the Doctor has been erased from all history...but remember Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead, the shadows retreat when the Doctor recommends that they (the shadows) examine the library and see who he is. But now there's no record and has never been...so does that mean events played out differently? If so, where does River end up?

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Dan234 2 Oct 2012 09:15:15 2,226 posts
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In theory those episodes where he says 'do you know who I am?' and stuff like that (i.e. about half of them) should now disappear in a paradox as the reply would be 'no' followed by a zap, meaning that he couldn't have gone round deleting himself in the first place.

And River shouldn't have been released for killing someone who they had no record of, but have not actually existed as she was only born because all his enemies banded together against him at Demon's Run and the Doctor went there with an army made up of all the people he helped and knew him.

So really the universe is on borrowed time. Let's see how Moffat writes his way out of that one.

Edited by Dan234 at 09:17:35 02-10-2012

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Ignatius_Cheese Moderator 2 Oct 2012 10:09:16 10,511 posts
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WWTW?

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stephenb 2 Oct 2012 10:12:16 2,427 posts
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A lot of people in this thread think about this far more than Moffat does me thinks. The plot will fit what he needs to happen to the characters not the other way around.
He needed Amy and Rory to be unreachable and that's what happened. I'm sure he gave it quite a bit of thought on how he would achieve that. However he will have been looking at emotional responses of the people involved rather than 'Ooh they could just meet up elsewhere.'
Picking plot holes in Doctor Who could be a full time job. It's best to just enjoy and laugh at things like the sol being a giant angel.

PSN : v--WEDGE--v

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Ignatius_Cheese Moderator 2 Oct 2012 10:31:16 10,511 posts
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My understanding as to why the Doctor can't go back and "rescue" Amy and Rory was that as soon as the names were engraved on the gravestone, it was a fixed event in time i.e. they would grow old together in happiness.

In the same way that the chapter titles fixed the events. He prattles on about them enough in the last 3 series to suggest that you can't go messing about with fixed events.

As to how he is able to then go about wiping himself out of existence throughout the universe isn't worth thinking about too hard unless you fancy a stress headache.

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RobAnybody 2 Oct 2012 11:19:07 550 posts
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As with all of Moffat's Who of late, it really doesn't bear close anlysis. Moffat doesn't so much bend the 'rules'; instead he re-writes the rule book as he pleases, then chucks it away.

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FogHeart 2 Oct 2012 13:40:23 715 posts
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So both River's birth and 'death' are invalidated because of the 'Doctor Who' paradox. I imagine certain websites are spontaneously combusting right now.

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HoriZon 3 Oct 2012 00:44:36 13,195 posts
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Over think a kids show well done.

Everybody has secrets, life would be boring without secrets, don't you think...?

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RobTheBuilder 3 Oct 2012 01:05:43 5,810 posts
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People are putting waaaay too much thought into each bit of continuity.
It was a very good episode, that gave a fitting send off to Amy and Rory before they outstayed their welcome.

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mal 3 Oct 2012 04:02:42 20,522 posts
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I don't understand what FogHeart says, but he makes a good point - whatever happens in this thread, there are entire sects of the internet devoted to overanalysing Who, and it's vaguely amusing to imagine the sort of convolutions they're getting themselves into if what he says makes sense. Not that I'm going to go there to check - it's just better left to the imagination.

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GiarcYekrub 3 Oct 2012 12:28:19 3,150 posts
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I like the arguments about if the brigadier is dead or not (There is apparently comic or book set 2050 something where he is commanding the Sontaran fleet)

Edited by GiarcYekrub at 12:29:40 03-10-2012

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Darren 4 Oct 2012 08:36:39 7,627 posts
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RobTheBuilder wrote:
People are putting waaaay too much thought into each bit of continuity.
It was a very good episode, that gave a fitting send off to Amy and Rory before they outstayed their welcome.

I thought they'd already overstayed their welcome this series personally and couldn't wait for them to leave. What really put me off them as characters was their whole reaction to Melody Pond/River Song who in the last episode was not greeted by her parents; she didn't get so much as a glance from either of them never mind a "Hi daughter!". Granted the whole River Song thing was bizarre but there is no chemistry at all between them, which is odd when you consider that they cannot have any more children. You'd think they'd be delighted to see their only child from time to time. What an obnoxious couple!

Edited by Darren at 08:37:02 04-10-2012

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Qui-Gon 13 Oct 2012 08:34:34 81 posts
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Overall it was a disappointing 5 episode run. The only one that really stood out for me was Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, which had great visuals and a decent story. The old west one was a mixture of historical inaccuracies. I mean the trailers were more exciting than the actual episode.
The Angels episode was just a 'cop out'. Yes it had some great moments like Amy and Rory jumping off of the roof which, was moving. But come on, don't pretend that the episodes we had were fantastic because to be honest, the Ponds could and should have left at the end of the last season. Of course he can always go back and rescue them; how do you think river is going to do it? Yes, the vortex manipulater. It carries 3 people.
So we've had 5 episodes and now we have to wait a few months for the christmas epidode, and if they've only started filming again for the rest of the season then there won't be anything on in January!

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RobTheBuilder 13 Oct 2012 13:03:48 5,810 posts
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I still think it was a decent set of episodes, not realllly greatbut enjoyable and moving, with a good number of funny bits.

Also, there is apparently a short voiced over bit of animation that adds a little more detail to end of the Amy/Rory story and includes Rory's dad. Not had a look yet but supposed to be pretty good.

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Spong 13 Oct 2012 19:53:24 389 posts
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@RobTheBuilder You mean this...

Doctor Who: P.S.

It's a short hand-drawn storyboard, showing an unrecorded scene with Brian (with some dialogue from Rory), that tags on to the end of Angels Take Manhattan.

It means nothing though because it never happened.