From what I heard though the flying of the flag was discussed at a public meeting before and 3 people turned up. If the feeling was so strong why weren't all these people on the streets there at the meeting to show their opinions? This isn't something that just happened it followed the usual process and is just an excuse to have a bit of bother.
Union Jack is re-designed • Page 3
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ScoutTech 2,362 posts
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BritishBlue1 83 posts
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Registered 4 years agoWorst idea I've heard in a while.
And that's not even taking into account the question of a possible scottish secession, Great Britain may cease to exist within 2 years. -
Whizzo 41,155 posts
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Registered 11 years agoUnless Alex Salmond is planning on physically breaking up this island, Great Britain isn't going away any time soon.This space left intentionally blank.
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LeoliansBro 35,125 posts
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Registered 7 years agoI can't get my head around the logistics of Scotland leaving the UK, never mind whether they want to or not. Who will be invited to have Scottish passports? Will all countries immediately recognise Scotland as a sovereign state? What border controls will be put into place? Has anyone drawn up a budget given their heavy dependence on England for support? Have they got 200 odd foreign ambassadors (plus staff) ready to go? How's their military looking?LB, you really are a massive geek.
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RedSparrows 17,078 posts
Seen 3 hours ago
Registered 6 years agoThe issue of flags for England/GB seems to me a classic example of snowballing.
Someone, somewhere, has an issue with a flag being/not being flown - for whatever, insane/rational/emotional/intellectual reason.
This is reported on, and chimes with a sense of general malaise about... something or other.
Other people begin to pay attention, ascribing malicious intent for a lack/surplus of 'pride', whereas normally it was just absent minded comfort - 'we don't fly a flag cos nobody seemed that bothered, actually'.
Repeat, expand, Daily Mail.
Obviously, Northern Ireland is a slightly different matter... -
Tuffty 1,029 posts
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Registered 6 years agoAs a Protestant man living in Belfast, the flag issue is ridiculous. You couldn't really even see the flag anyway, and I can guarantee that a large majority of the rioters didn't even know it existed til now, bandwagon jumping gobshites. -
RedSparrows 17,078 posts
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Registered 6 years agoTuffty wrote:
Perhaps I was wrong... describes it perfectly for most cases of somewhat similar ilk in England. Minus the riots.
As a Protestant man living in Belfast, the flag issue is ridiculous. You couldn't really even see the flag anyway, and I can guarantee that a large majority of the rioters didn't even know it existed til now, bandwagon jumping gobshites. -
BritishBlue1 83 posts
Seen 15 hours ago
Registered 4 years ago@Whizzo
I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?
Edited by BritishBlue1 at 10:54:58 12-12-2012 -
nickthegun 44,590 posts
Seen 7 hours ago
Registered 7 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
Given the amount of money they throw around on that kind of thing, I bet they have got double that waiting to pounce at a moments notice.
Have they got 200 odd foreign ambassadors (plus staff) ready to go?---------------------------------------------------------
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DaM 11,761 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 11 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
Clearly these are questions that no one can answer for sure. The ridiculous thing is that most issues cannot be decided till after a Yes vote, which makes the whole thing a farce.
I can't get my head around the logistics of Scotland leaving the UK, never mind whether they want to or not. Who will be invited to have Scottish passports? Will all countries immediately recognise Scotland as a sovereign state? What border controls will be put into place? Has anyone drawn up a budget given their heavy dependence on England for support? Have they got 200 odd foreign ambassadors (plus staff) ready to go? How's their military looking?
Passports - I think if you were born here or are living there you'd get one.
Sovereign state - Not immediately after a Yes vote - it would lead to several years of negotiations with various bodies, before a date being set. I can't see why it would be an issue for other countries to recognise as a sovereign state.
Border controls - SNP say none, but it would depend on negotiations with UK and EU and the status of EU membership. So in theory we could be outside EU/outside free trade area, but the SNP never mention that.
Budget - the UK government has acknowledged that we pay our own way, if you take oil and gas revenue into account. So if that gets split according to international law (sea beds and territorial waters and stuff), it shouldn't be a problem. If the price of oil stays high and it never runs out obviously.gif)
London and the SE massively subsidise the whole of the UK, except for Scotland.
I don't think embassy staff/consulates would be a problem. Other small countries manage.
Army - would all come in the negotiations, but we've got army divisions, naval bases and airfields. We'd negotiate 10% of kit off the UK. We've got the nukes too
I think the EU President's statement this week has put a serious dent in the Yes campaign, making it less likely to happen. -
Whizzo 41,155 posts
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Registered 11 years agoBritishBlue1 wrote:I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?
Then use the correct term, the words you were looking for are "the United Kingdom".
Edited by Whizzo at 11:07:14 12-12-2012This space left intentionally blank.
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LeoliansBro 35,125 posts
Seen 18 hours ago
Registered 7 years agoBritishBlue1 wrote:
Great Britain is the landmass. 'The UK' is what you meant to say.
@Whizzo
I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?LB, you really are a massive geek.
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RedSparrows 17,078 posts
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Registered 6 years agoI can't quite see why Scotland would want to cede from the UK in the current climate, but I ain't no economist. -
LeoliansBro 35,125 posts
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Registered 7 years agoDaM: without sovereignity and recognition from other countries, passports are useless and you won't be able to travel. I guess you'll keep your UK passport until the Scottish nation is fully recognised. Thing is, why would the remainder of the UK accommodate this? You could be on your collective arse.
Revenues from oil companies don't go to Scotland. Tax on profits from the companies that extract the oil goes to Scotland. Have you sorted tax rates? Have you organised tax treaties with other countries to avoid double taxation? Have you the administrative framework ready to collect tax, mirroring Whitehall's?
You don't have an army. The UK has an army and you're leaving the UK. We'll have to park our nukes somewhere else though, true.LB, you really are a massive geek.
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DaM 11,761 posts
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Registered 11 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
Don't put all this on me, I'm against it, just putting answering your queries from what we hear - I imagine it doesn't feature much down south
DaM: without sovereignity and recognition from other countries, passports are useless and you won't be able to travel. I guess you'll keep your UK passport until the Scottish nation is fully recognised. Thing is, why would the remainder of the UK accommodate this? You could be on your collective arse.
Revenues from oil companies don't go to Scotland. Tax on profits from the companies that extract the oil goes to Scotland. Have you sorted tax rates? Have you organised tax treaties with other countries to avoid double taxation? Have you the administrative framework ready to collect tax, mirroring Whitehall's?
You don't have an army. The UK has an army and you're leaving the UK. We'll have to park our nukes somewhere else though, true.
The UK government has said it will recognise the democratic will of the Scottish people. There are such close ties between the countries, it is in the interest of both parties to ensure any break up goes smoothly.
Tax - who knows! Nothing concrete has been put forward, though they keep harping on about making Scotland more attractive for investment, so a drop in corporation tax. We already have the administrative network in place (well most of it). Any of my tax, income, corp and VAT enquiries are dealt with by Scottish tax centres.
Army - we would be entitled to approximately 10% of the UK's armed forces, acknowledged by both sides. The Scottish divisions would simply switch to Scotland, we'd get a few boats and planes. I don't think we're planning any major operations - we could maybe annex the Faroes. I wouldn't be surprised if some deal is on the cards where Faslane stays, as a part of the UK in Scotland (like Guantanamo Bay). But they'd never admit that before a vote.
There are lots of really tricky areas, which the SNP just sort of brush over, like EU membership. But after the EU's statement this week, I don't they'll need to do more than their current "It'll all be fine" line. People have a lot of questions, like the ones you are raising. Some can be answered - some no one can, and I think the huge uncertainty is what will lose them the vote. -
LeoliansBro 35,125 posts
Seen 18 hours ago
Registered 7 years agoAutomatic EU membership is out of the window, or you'll have a ton of very angry Catalans asking what makes you special
I'm just highlighting examples of the real problem, which is that you're starting a developed country on the international stage from scratch, and providing a perfect opportunity for everyone else to either wriggle out of disadvantageous treaties and agreements, or ensure the new ones are to their advantage.LB, you really are a massive geek.
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X201 13,085 posts
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Registered 7 years agoasphaltcowboy wrote:
Bit of trivia for you: It's only called the Union Jack when it's on a boat. The rest of the time, it's called the Union Flag. So I'm told.
It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Moët, which it isn't.
"It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag"."
http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7.2
Edited by X201 at 11:41:53 12-12-2012 -
RedSparrows 17,078 posts
Seen 3 hours ago
Registered 6 years agoI can't help but say Moët as 'MayohT', or 'may-ott' as in otter.
Edited by RedSparrows at 11:51:20 12-12-2012 -
localnotail 21,458 posts
Seen 2 hours ago
Registered 4 years agoX201 wrote:
I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Moët, which it isn't.
Edited by localnotail at 11:54:44 12-12-2012Playing all the right notes— but not necessarily in the right order.
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LeoliansBro 35,125 posts
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Registered 7 years agoSince when do flags fly from the bow of a ship anyway? Aren't they on the stern?LB, you really are a massive geek.
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Whizzo 41,155 posts
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Registered 11 years agoJackstaffs (jackstaves?) are on the bow.This space left intentionally blank.
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X201 13,085 posts
Seen 27 minutes ago
Registered 7 years agolocalnotail wrote:
You pronounce the "t" at the end.X201 wrote:
I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Moët, which it isn't.
There are two reasons that the mo-ay pronunciation is wrong. The diacritic above the "e" means that the "ay" sound is wrong.
The second reason is more matter of fact, Mr Moët was Dutch.
Edited by X201 at 12:25:20 12-12-2012 -
DaM 11,761 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 11 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
Precisely - entry into the EU would be on their terms, and they are very unlikely to be advantageous to us. Salmond keeps going on about how wealthy an independent Scotland would be - entry to the EU would probably therefore see us paying a lot more per head than we do now. A unanimous vote would be required for entry - and Spain, Italy and Poland, who all have regions that want to secede, would make sure the process is not quick and easy.
Automatic EU membership is out of the window, or you'll have a ton of very angry Catalans asking what makes you special
I'm just highlighting examples of the real problem, which is that you're starting a developed country on the international stage from scratch, and providing a perfect opportunity for everyone else to either wriggle out of disadvantageous treaties and agreements, or ensure the new ones are to their advantage.
It's just added a whole new layer of uncertainty to the Referendum - now not only do we have to guess the outcome of negotiations between the rump UK and a Scottish gov, now also we have to guess what the EU would demand too. People don't like uncertainty, especially in the current economic climate. I think that is why the next opinion polls will see a further slump for the Yes camp, without the Nos having done anything at all. -
X201 13,085 posts
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Registered 7 years agoI remember hearing something about how Salmond's wind power goldmine talk was a load of hot air, and that the money would actually be going to the big corporations who set up the wind farms and not the Scottish people. -
DaM 11,761 posts
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Registered 11 years agoWell Scottish Power is now Spanish.... And the companies investing in renewable manufacturing are foreign.
I think there could be revenue from tidal/wave ventures, as the Crown (or whatever succeeds it) owns the land.
I think there is a lot of potential for dodgy gas production too (fracking etc), but it's not very popular. Plenty of small countries get along fine without oil, it just makes it a lot easier. -
mal 20,536 posts
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Registered 11 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
AIUI the landmasses the UK is on are called the British Isles. I've always assumed the term 'great britain' is just a marketing and sporting term, though I've never really looked into it.BritishBlue1 wrote:
Great Britain is the landmass. 'The UK' is what you meant to say.
@Whizzo
I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!
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LeoliansBro 35,125 posts
Seen 18 hours ago
Registered 7 years agoX201 wrote:
...and we mispronounce Paris as well. It comes down to common usage and acceptance.localnotail wrote:
You pronounce the "t" at the end.X201 wrote:
I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Moët, which it isn't.
There are two reasons that the mo-ay pronunciation is wrong. The diacritic above the "e" means that the "ay" sound is wrong.
The second reason is more matter of fact, Mr Moët was Dutch.LB, you really are a massive geek.
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RedSparrows 17,078 posts
Seen 3 hours ago
Registered 6 years agoMy dad gets really riled about the pronunciation of place names. It's an odd one. -
meme 15,520 posts
Seen 1 hour ago
Registered 5 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
To be fair, even the winery itself consistently insists on the correct pronunciation. You don't have the French going off at tourists, shouting "EEETS PAAARRRREEEEE".X201 wrote:
...and we mispronounce Paris as well. It comes down to common usage and acceptance.localnotail wrote:
You pronounce the "t" at the end.X201 wrote:
I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Moët, which it isn't.
There are two reasons that the mo-ay pronunciation is wrong. The diacritic above the "e" means that the "ay" sound is wrong.
The second reason is more matter of fact, Mr Moët was Dutch.GHOSTBUSTERS
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In French, Moët is pronounced as Mmm-wet. We say Paris rather that Par-ee because we anglicised it, much like the French francofied London to Londres, this is correct to do. The perceived wisdom is that Moët should be Moway because its French. This is incorrect and should be punished.
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