Union Jack is re-designed Page 3

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  • ScoutTech 12 Dec 2012 10:29:21 2,424 posts
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    From what I heard though the flying of the flag was discussed at a public meeting before and 3 people turned up. If the feeling was so strong why weren't all these people on the streets there at the meeting to show their opinions? This isn't something that just happened it followed the usual process and is just an excuse to have a bit of bother.
  • BritishBlue1 12 Dec 2012 10:36:21 132 posts
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    Worst idea I've heard in a while.

    And that's not even taking into account the question of a possible scottish secession, Great Britain may cease to exist within 2 years.
  • Whizzo 12 Dec 2012 10:43:40 43,128 posts
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    Unless Alex Salmond is planning on physically breaking up this island, Great Britain isn't going away any time soon.

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  • LeoliansBro 12 Dec 2012 10:48:13 44,246 posts
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    I can't get my head around the logistics of Scotland leaving the UK, never mind whether they want to or not. Who will be invited to have Scottish passports? Will all countries immediately recognise Scotland as a sovereign state? What border controls will be put into place? Has anyone drawn up a budget given their heavy dependence on England for support? Have they got 200 odd foreign ambassadors (plus staff) ready to go? How's their military looking?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 12 Dec 2012 10:49:07 22,735 posts
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    The issue of flags for England/GB seems to me a classic example of snowballing.

    Someone, somewhere, has an issue with a flag being/not being flown - for whatever, insane/rational/emotional/intellectual reason.

    This is reported on, and chimes with a sense of general malaise about... something or other.

    Other people begin to pay attention, ascribing malicious intent for a lack/surplus of 'pride', whereas normally it was just absent minded comfort - 'we don't fly a flag cos nobody seemed that bothered, actually'.

    Repeat, expand, Daily Mail.

    Obviously, Northern Ireland is a slightly different matter...
  • Tuffty 12 Dec 2012 10:49:46 1,590 posts
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    As a Protestant man living in Belfast, the flag issue is ridiculous. You couldn't really even see the flag anyway, and I can guarantee that a large majority of the rioters didn't even know it existed til now, bandwagon jumping gobshites.
  • RedSparrows 12 Dec 2012 10:52:00 22,735 posts
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    Tuffty wrote:
    As a Protestant man living in Belfast, the flag issue is ridiculous. You couldn't really even see the flag anyway, and I can guarantee that a large majority of the rioters didn't even know it existed til now, bandwagon jumping gobshites.
    Perhaps I was wrong... describes it perfectly for most cases of somewhat similar ilk in England. Minus the riots.
  • BritishBlue1 12 Dec 2012 10:54:40 132 posts
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    @Whizzo

    I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?

    Edited by BritishBlue1 at 10:54:58 12-12-2012
  • nickthegun 12 Dec 2012 11:02:45 59,937 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Have they got 200 odd foreign ambassadors (plus staff) ready to go?
    Given the amount of money they throw around on that kind of thing, I bet they have got double that waiting to pounce at a moments notice.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    someone say something funny

  • DaM 12 Dec 2012 11:06:17 13,225 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I can't get my head around the logistics of Scotland leaving the UK, never mind whether they want to or not. Who will be invited to have Scottish passports? Will all countries immediately recognise Scotland as a sovereign state? What border controls will be put into place? Has anyone drawn up a budget given their heavy dependence on England for support? Have they got 200 odd foreign ambassadors (plus staff) ready to go? How's their military looking?
    Clearly these are questions that no one can answer for sure. The ridiculous thing is that most issues cannot be decided till after a Yes vote, which makes the whole thing a farce.

    Passports - I think if you were born here or are living there you'd get one.

    Sovereign state - Not immediately after a Yes vote - it would lead to several years of negotiations with various bodies, before a date being set. I can't see why it would be an issue for other countries to recognise as a sovereign state.

    Border controls - SNP say none, but it would depend on negotiations with UK and EU and the status of EU membership. So in theory we could be outside EU/outside free trade area, but the SNP never mention that.

    Budget - the UK government has acknowledged that we pay our own way, if you take oil and gas revenue into account. So if that gets split according to international law (sea beds and territorial waters and stuff), it shouldn't be a problem. If the price of oil stays high and it never runs out obviously :) London and the SE massively subsidise the whole of the UK, except for Scotland.

    I don't think embassy staff/consulates would be a problem. Other small countries manage.

    Army - would all come in the negotiations, but we've got army divisions, naval bases and airfields. We'd negotiate 10% of kit off the UK. We've got the nukes too :)

    I think the EU President's statement this week has put a serious dent in the Yes campaign, making it less likely to happen.
  • Whizzo 12 Dec 2012 11:06:51 43,128 posts
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    BritishBlue1 wrote:I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?
    Then use the correct term, the words you were looking for are "the United Kingdom".

    Edited by Whizzo at 11:07:14 12-12-2012

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  • LeoliansBro 12 Dec 2012 11:07:40 44,246 posts
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    BritishBlue1 wrote:
    @Whizzo

    I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?
    Great Britain is the landmass. 'The UK' is what you meant to say.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 12 Dec 2012 11:09:25 22,735 posts
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    I can't quite see why Scotland would want to cede from the UK in the current climate, but I ain't no economist.
  • LeoliansBro 12 Dec 2012 11:13:00 44,246 posts
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    DaM: without sovereignity and recognition from other countries, passports are useless and you won't be able to travel. I guess you'll keep your UK passport until the Scottish nation is fully recognised. Thing is, why would the remainder of the UK accommodate this? You could be on your collective arse.

    Revenues from oil companies don't go to Scotland. Tax on profits from the companies that extract the oil goes to Scotland. Have you sorted tax rates? Have you organised tax treaties with other countries to avoid double taxation? Have you the administrative framework ready to collect tax, mirroring Whitehall's?

    You don't have an army. The UK has an army and you're leaving the UK. We'll have to park our nukes somewhere else though, true.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • DaM 12 Dec 2012 11:25:41 13,225 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    DaM: without sovereignity and recognition from other countries, passports are useless and you won't be able to travel. I guess you'll keep your UK passport until the Scottish nation is fully recognised. Thing is, why would the remainder of the UK accommodate this? You could be on your collective arse.

    Revenues from oil companies don't go to Scotland. Tax on profits from the companies that extract the oil goes to Scotland. Have you sorted tax rates? Have you organised tax treaties with other countries to avoid double taxation? Have you the administrative framework ready to collect tax, mirroring Whitehall's?

    You don't have an army. The UK has an army and you're leaving the UK. We'll have to park our nukes somewhere else though, true.
    Don't put all this on me, I'm against it, just putting answering your queries from what we hear - I imagine it doesn't feature much down south :)

    The UK government has said it will recognise the democratic will of the Scottish people. There are such close ties between the countries, it is in the interest of both parties to ensure any break up goes smoothly.

    Tax - who knows! Nothing concrete has been put forward, though they keep harping on about making Scotland more attractive for investment, so a drop in corporation tax. We already have the administrative network in place (well most of it). Any of my tax, income, corp and VAT enquiries are dealt with by Scottish tax centres.

    Army - we would be entitled to approximately 10% of the UK's armed forces, acknowledged by both sides. The Scottish divisions would simply switch to Scotland, we'd get a few boats and planes. I don't think we're planning any major operations - we could maybe annex the Faroes. I wouldn't be surprised if some deal is on the cards where Faslane stays, as a part of the UK in Scotland (like Guantanamo Bay). But they'd never admit that before a vote.

    There are lots of really tricky areas, which the SNP just sort of brush over, like EU membership. But after the EU's statement this week, I don't they'll need to do more than their current "It'll all be fine" line. People have a lot of questions, like the ones you are raising. Some can be answered - some no one can, and I think the huge uncertainty is what will lose them the vote.
  • LeoliansBro 12 Dec 2012 11:28:23 44,246 posts
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    Automatic EU membership is out of the window, or you'll have a ton of very angry Catalans asking what makes you special :)

    I'm just highlighting examples of the real problem, which is that you're starting a developed country on the international stage from scratch, and providing a perfect opportunity for everyone else to either wriggle out of disadvantageous treaties and agreements, or ensure the new ones are to their advantage.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • X201 12 Dec 2012 11:30:51 15,484 posts
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    asphaltcowboy wrote:
    Bit of trivia for you: It's only called the Union Jack when it's on a boat. The rest of the time, it's called the Union Flag. So I'm told.

    It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Mot, which it isn't.



    "It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag"."

    http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7.2

    Edited by X201 at 11:41:53 12-12-2012
  • RedSparrows 12 Dec 2012 11:51:09 22,735 posts
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    I can't help but say Mot as 'MayohT', or 'may-ott' as in otter.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 11:51:20 12-12-2012
  • localnotail 12 Dec 2012 11:52:26 23,093 posts
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    X201 wrote:

    It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Mot, which it isn't.
    I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?

    Edited by localnotail at 11:54:44 12-12-2012

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • LeoliansBro 12 Dec 2012 11:53:43 44,246 posts
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    Since when do flags fly from the bow of a ship anyway? Aren't they on the stern?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Whizzo 12 Dec 2012 11:58:35 43,128 posts
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    Jackstaffs (jackstaves?) are on the bow.

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  • X201 12 Dec 2012 12:23:09 15,484 posts
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    localnotail wrote:
    X201 wrote:

    It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Mot, which it isn't.
    I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
    You pronounce the "t" at the end.

    There are two reasons that the mo-ay pronunciation is wrong. The diacritic above the "e" means that the "ay" sound is wrong.
    The second reason is more matter of fact, Mr Mot was Dutch.

    Edited by X201 at 12:25:20 12-12-2012
  • DaM 12 Dec 2012 13:22:39 13,225 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Automatic EU membership is out of the window, or you'll have a ton of very angry Catalans asking what makes you special :)

    I'm just highlighting examples of the real problem, which is that you're starting a developed country on the international stage from scratch, and providing a perfect opportunity for everyone else to either wriggle out of disadvantageous treaties and agreements, or ensure the new ones are to their advantage.
    Precisely - entry into the EU would be on their terms, and they are very unlikely to be advantageous to us. Salmond keeps going on about how wealthy an independent Scotland would be - entry to the EU would probably therefore see us paying a lot more per head than we do now. A unanimous vote would be required for entry - and Spain, Italy and Poland, who all have regions that want to secede, would make sure the process is not quick and easy.

    It's just added a whole new layer of uncertainty to the Referendum - now not only do we have to guess the outcome of negotiations between the rump UK and a Scottish gov, now also we have to guess what the EU would demand too. People don't like uncertainty, especially in the current economic climate. I think that is why the next opinion polls will see a further slump for the Yes camp, without the Nos having done anything at all.
  • X201 12 Dec 2012 13:57:22 15,484 posts
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    I remember hearing something about how Salmond's wind power goldmine talk was a load of hot air, and that the money would actually be going to the big corporations who set up the wind farms and not the Scottish people.
  • DaM 12 Dec 2012 14:03:32 13,225 posts
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    Well Scottish Power is now Spanish.... And the companies investing in renewable manufacturing are foreign.

    I think there could be revenue from tidal/wave ventures, as the Crown (or whatever succeeds it) owns the land.

    I think there is a lot of potential for dodgy gas production too (fracking etc), but it's not very popular. Plenty of small countries get along fine without oil, it just makes it a lot easier.
  • mal 12 Dec 2012 14:29:10 22,560 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    BritishBlue1 wrote:
    @Whizzo

    I'm commenting on the political Union rather than, you know, the actual physical land mass. Or are you being a bit of a deliberate twat?
    Great Britain is the landmass. 'The UK' is what you meant to say.
    AIUI the landmasses the UK is on are called the British Isles. I've always assumed the term 'great britain' is just a marketing and sporting term, though I've never really looked into it.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • LeoliansBro 12 Dec 2012 14:32:10 44,246 posts
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    X201 wrote:
    localnotail wrote:
    X201 wrote:

    It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Mot, which it isn't.
    I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
    You pronounce the "t" at the end.

    There are two reasons that the mo-ay pronunciation is wrong. The diacritic above the "e" means that the "ay" sound is wrong.
    The second reason is more matter of fact, Mr Mot was Dutch.
    ...and we mispronounce Paris as well. It comes down to common usage and acceptance.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 12 Dec 2012 14:53:05 22,735 posts
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    My dad gets really riled about the pronunciation of place names. It's an odd one.
  • Deleted user 12 December 2012 15:11:07
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    X201 wrote:
    localnotail wrote:
    X201 wrote:

    It a "fact" that comes from the same received wisdom stable as "Mo-ey" being the correct pronunciation of Mot, which it isn't.
    I don't remember Queen writing lyrics about the Union Jack. "Killer Queen" is the reason I pronounce it Mo-ey. Well, more like mo-ay. How is it supposed to be pronounced?
    You pronounce the "t" at the end.

    There are two reasons that the mo-ay pronunciation is wrong. The diacritic above the "e" means that the "ay" sound is wrong.
    The second reason is more matter of fact, Mr Mot was Dutch.
    ...and we mispronounce Paris as well. It comes down to common usage and acceptance.
    To be fair, even the winery itself consistently insists on the correct pronunciation. You don't have the French going off at tourists, shouting "EEETS PAAARRRREEEEE".
  • elstoof 12 Dec 2012 15:14:16 7,367 posts
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    In French, Mot is pronounced as Mmm-wet. We say Paris rather that Par-ee because we anglicised it, much like the French francofied London to Londres, this is correct to do. The perceived wisdom is that Mot should be Moway because its French. This is incorrect and should be punished.
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