Why is there so much negativity surrounding Star Wars Battlefront 2? Page 3

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  • AaronTurner 14 Nov 2017 14:11:14 9,557 posts
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    Releasing maps over a period of time keeps things fresh. If they don't do that then there are complaints, if they do do it then there are complaints. Like it or not most games are going this way.
  • mothercruncher 14 Nov 2017 14:17:13 14,114 posts
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    Derblington wrote:
    No, they take longer than 3 weeks. But you don't just hit a set day when the game is done and the team moves on.

    As areas are finalised people will move over weeks before the game releases. There's then crossover of the level teams starting up the DLC content while the remaining team finish off the title. More people then move over to the DLC team while a smaller remainer stay and work on day 1 patches, etc, while the game is in submission/production for the discs.
    Boy! So much work. How did normal, non pre-order bonus, non day one patch, non shit framerated, non servers fucked so you canít play, non marketing scraped, non unfathomable progression systemed, non link your fucking account, non gambling enabled, non DLCíd games ever get finished back in the day?
  • Duffking 14 Nov 2017 14:25:16 14,860 posts
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    Carlo wrote:It's already made, and held back
    Just because you've decided in your head that it is, doesn't mean that it is. It may have happened once or twice, but if you think that anything even approaching the majority of post-launch content is already done at release and being held back, you quite simply have literally no idea what you're talking about.
  • KD 14 Nov 2017 14:38:04 1,760 posts
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    I've never organised a team to make a digital product so cant answer, we all have suspicions but funny to see the definite yes they do hehe.
  • Duffking 14 Nov 2017 14:51:14 14,860 posts
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    @mothercruncher

    Because making games just used to be simpler back then.

    Take something like Unreal Tournament. You could make a respectable quality Unreal Tournament '99 hobby map in a day or two back then. Design your layout, block it out (since it's all simple geometry), place all the pickups, stick some lights in, slap some existing textures on the walls. Test. Done. For a pro team, you could build them quite rapidly. You'd spend longer on each, but there's a good reason those games used to ship with shitloads of maps, and why each map in UT used to be credited to one individual. Look through the UT maps and you'll see Cliffy B made like a third of them on his own. Good luck with that these days - you'll be credited along with about 15 other people, for a small handful of maps.

    You simply cannot produce anything of a contemporary quality in such a short time, with only one person on top of that. It's no longer feasible for even a couple of people to rapidly knock out a AAA quality map. It doesn't happen. You're talking months of work from several people.

    Where once your designer could both design the layout and implement it, now they build a prototype boxy layout, playtest it to death, iterate on it, playtest it, over and over. Only after possibly weeks of this, does it then go to your art team has to build flesh it out in another 3D modelling package and import it into the engine. And that's just for a first pass.

    The increased complexity of all that modelling work means a lot of ongoing testing is then necessary to deal with all of the potential collision issues and other glitches that have arisen, and look at where tradeoffs need to be made in order to ensure everything looks nice and AAA quality while also not compromising on the designers vision. This will be an ongoing back and forth: they'll iterate over and over on that layout, adding gradually more and more detail, since there's no point putting it all in in one go, testing it and discovering it's a pile of shit now.

    So after all of that, you're finally at the point you could be in a couple of hours back in 99. At that point, you'd start picking textures to put on your walls, floors... well today you can't really do that. You've got to sort out your UVs and unwrap them and that's a bit job. Then you can't simply stick any old theme texture and have it look alright, nope, you're going to need new art everywhere, from scratch. For hundreds of objects.

    Those textures you do create won't just be flat images like in 99 either - they'll also need normal maps, displacements, specular maps, heightmaps, occlusion maps and the like so they can become materials.

    Once you've got your materials applied, now you get to light it. In 99, that means sticking some point lights around the place, put a light mesh or something near them so it's not just coming from nowhere, and make sure it's all looking spic and span. Now, you get to make all sorts of decisions. Lighting can take weeks or months of tweaking to get looking natural. There's a continuous push and pull between performance and playability.

    You've also got to consider all the rest of the bits and pieces we didn't have back then. Reflection probes, post processing, map specific code... All your playtesting needs to happen in earnest around beta, you need to check the map thoroughly in your profiler for performance issues, you need to QA it extensively for bugs and glitches...

    The point is one map, of AAA quality, used to be a couple of weeks work for a small team, and they could stick loads in for launch easily. Now, it's months of work, for a big team, who'll come and go as they move from job to job.

    If a map is launching a month after launch, it was probably in beta at launch given today's workload. If it was launched 2 months later, it was likely in early stages. 3 months? It's probably brand new. And all of that is fine, because there's no point having everyone just... stop and sit on their thumbs all day at the end of development. Continuing production targeted at post launch is the most sensible use of resources.

    Edited by Duffking at 14:53:37 14-11-2017
  • JYM60 14 Nov 2017 15:06:22 17,490 posts
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    I understand that the disks may be going to print or whatever, but sure just fire in a day one patch or something. It's the whole 'look how good we are to you, free dlc!' Which is a load of balls.

    If we're still seeing 'free' dlc for the game after 1 or 2 years, then you got to say fair enough, thanks.

    Edited by JYM60 at 15:07:39 14-11-2017
  • Duffking 14 Nov 2017 15:10:02 14,860 posts
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    It's literally got nothing to do with disks going out to print. When a group of people finish the work on their assigned tasks 2 months ahead of launch, you can either have the people who are surplus to requirements on other tasks sit sucking their thumbs for 2 months or you can set them off making something else, knowing it won't make launch, but that's fine because you can drop it when it's done instead.

    If it is done, yeah, it can go in a day 1 patch. If it came out a month later, it mostly probably wasn't done, and that's why it's not in your day one patch.
  • Rhaegyr 14 Nov 2017 15:11:31 3,915 posts
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    Christ - it takes that long to make a single map and they're still inferior to the likes of Deck 16 and Facing Worlds.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 14 Nov 2017 15:13:12 30,742 posts
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    I choose to side with frothing rage over informed reason in this battle.
  • Duffking 14 Nov 2017 15:16:57 14,860 posts
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    @Rhaegyr thing is, you could smash out maps so quickly back then that you were bound to strike gold sooner or later!
  • Rhaegyr 14 Nov 2017 15:18:08 3,915 posts
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    Hah - good point. UT had its fair share of absolute stinkers too.

    Ratchet lol.
  • Carlo 14 Nov 2017 15:36:01 19,867 posts
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    Duffking wrote:
    Carlo wrote:It's already made, and held back
    Just because you've decided in your head that it is, doesn't mean that it is. It may have happened once or twice, but if you think that anything even approaching the majority of post-launch content is already done at release and being held back, you quite simply have literally no idea what you're talking about.
    Fine. Let's say all these things including maps didn't exist, and needed to be made after release. Work out what the cost should be and stick a label on it with that total cost and see who buys it... no-one will because it is too expensive.

    So start making games cheaper to produce, don't 'release' it anyway and try and claw back the money off your players via play-to-win, gambling, or force players into buying the dlc (like Destiny for example)

    Don't want to to do that because it's too risky? Fine. Same for us consumers. Why should we carry the risk that you won't deliver on your promises because the game didn't sell well enough.

    Don't treat your customers like hosts for your parasitic attitudes.
  • Carlo 14 Nov 2017 15:36:01 19,867 posts
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    Post deleted
  • Derblington 14 Nov 2017 15:41:55 29,676 posts
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    People wouldn't buy cheaply made games either.
  • Rhaegyr 14 Nov 2017 16:06:36 3,915 posts
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    Do games made by small/one man teams count as 'cheap', such as Gunpoint, Spelunky, Undertale and the like? They sold pretty well I think.
  • mothercruncher 14 Nov 2017 16:12:57 14,114 posts
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    Iíd like to buy a game, feel that whatís in front of me is clear on value and complete of content, sit down, play it. No extra bullshit and Iím not really that interested in extra content. Iíd rather wait for a well conceived the sequel.
    These days Iím absolutely the exception though, I realise. Gamers have been the proverbial boiled frog the past ten years- weíve gradually slid towards all of this marketing shite in tiny steps to the point where a developer can think itís acceptable to ask customers to pay full price for a Star Wars game and not get to play as any of the main characters.
    I think Iíve only bought three games new this year and all of them have been Nintendo ones though obviously that isnít going to last too. For the little itís worth Iíll match publishers cynicism and continue protesting by generally buying these heavily monetised AAA titles second hand.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 14 Nov 2017 16:14:25 30,742 posts
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    Gone is the old 360/PS3 era of mid-tier games that used to produce the odd gem every now and then. No-one can be arsed to buy them anymore because their slightly lower price point never balanced out their lack of shiny.

    Now we just have big glimmering AAA games and pixelart indie games. No more, no less.
  • MoGamer2006 14 Nov 2017 16:18:05 1,040 posts
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    Carlo wrote:
    ...So start making games cheaper to produce...
    Of course! It's so simple!
  • SolidSCB 14 Nov 2017 16:24:54 9,926 posts
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    They've supposedly quietly removed the Refund button from their website in light of all this furore. You now have to ring up if you want your money back from them.

    You can't help but laugh.
  • bighairybear65 14 Nov 2017 16:32:32 198 posts
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    Does anyone think this could be the end of lootboxes?
    The internet seems quite up in arms about it, review sites have all mentioned it...

    This game could be a turning point?
  • StarchildHypocrethes 14 Nov 2017 16:35:54 30,742 posts
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    When it sells 7 billion copies on Friday I doubt EA will give any of this another thought.
  • Derblington 14 Nov 2017 16:38:24 29,676 posts
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    Rhaegyr wrote:
    Do games made by small/one man teams count as 'cheap', such as Gunpoint, Spelunky, Undertale and the like? They sold pretty well I think.
    Yes, but they also have a completely different target and market.
    If Battlefield 1 was stripped back to look like Battlefield 2 in order to keep costs down, no fucker would buy it.
    There's an expectation for what a AAA title should be and devs have to keep pace with that. It doesn't need to be the absolute best, most cutting edge but it needs to be appropriate.
    "Just make things cheaper" wouldn't work.

    Edited by Derblington at 16:39:00 14-11-2017
  • Derblington 14 Nov 2017 16:40:53 29,676 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    They've supposedly quietly removed the Refund button from their website in light of all this furore. You now have to ring up if you want your money back from them.

    You can't help but laugh.
    Yeah, this is misinformation spreading like wildfire too. Awful fucking timing, mind.
  • KD 14 Nov 2017 16:43:34 1,760 posts
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    Its not fake news unless Donald Rump tells us on twitter!
  • Duffking 14 Nov 2017 17:14:23 14,860 posts
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    Yeah, turns out the reason the refund button isn't there is because it's never existed for preordered games in the first place, it'll show up once the game is released.
  • Derblington 14 Nov 2017 17:25:19 29,676 posts
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    Unfortunately, amid the genuine concern over poor design choices, there are also a whole heap of people that just hate EA/want to jump on a bandwagon and make things worse. And they do, for both sides.
  • MoGamer2006 14 Nov 2017 17:58:14 1,040 posts
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    @Derblington That's my problem. Loot crates et al are shite, but then nobody likes DLC or paying more for games either, but instead of having a sensible debate about funding game development it's turned into a massive gamer rage circle jerk, where every other comment on BF threads is some misquoted Star Wars quote with "loot boxes LOL" wedged in somewhere.
  • Duffking 14 Nov 2017 18:20:22 14,860 posts
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    Bring back expansion packs
  • MoGamer2006 14 Nov 2017 20:47:00 1,040 posts
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    @Duffking They did that with BF1 and everyone shat the bed. Basically, unless gamers get a state-of-the-art epic that lasts them two years and costs £15, they scream the house down.
  • JYM60 14 Nov 2017 21:14:07 17,490 posts
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    Duffking wrote:
    It's literally got nothing to do with disks going out to print. When a group of people finish the work on their assigned tasks 2 months ahead of launch, you can either have the people who are surplus to requirements on other tasks sit sucking their thumbs for 2 months or you can set them off making something else, knowing it won't make launch, but that's fine because you can drop it when it's done instead.

    If it is done, yeah, it can go in a day 1 patch. If it came out a month later, it mostly probably wasn't done, and that's why it's not in your day one patch.
    Lol. Yeah the DLC is only coming out because some guys were twiddling their thumbs. It definitely isn't a thought out ploy by a massive money grabbing company.
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