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  • Mfolf 14 Nov 2017 10:48:07 1,426 posts
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    The Russians interfered to the extent that they spammed and botted the debates with nonsense. But we still voted Brexit on our own, fucking retarded, volition.
  • Zomoniac 14 Nov 2017 10:48:38 9,434 posts
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    A friend's husband has been in the army for 10 years and voted leave on the grouds that "we're not the British army anymore, we're being turned into the EU army but nobody's reporting on it". Because presumably this information is widely known by all low-ranking staff but has been a successfully guarded secret from everyone else.

    When I asked him why that would even be a bad thing he couldn't give me an answer.
  • LittleSparra 14 Nov 2017 10:50:30 7,005 posts
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    I can see why that would be a bad thing, I just don't see how it would happen.
  • Tonka 14 Nov 2017 10:55:21 26,482 posts
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    Mfolf wrote:
    The Russians interfered to the extent that they spammed and botted the debates with nonsense. But we still voted Brexit on our own, fucking retarded, volition.
    Yes. I don't think anyone believes the Russians sent fake voters to the booths.
  • FilthyAnimal 14 Nov 2017 10:56:18 163 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    Putin has everything in place already. The bot nets, the humans running them. The prepared strategies and messages.
    He benefits from a divided Europe.

    He can make that a reality by just pointing what he already have in a new direction.

    Why do you think he didn't?
    He almost certainly has the means and the will. And from a personal point of view, I believe that he did manipulate the EU referendum. But I'm a firm believer in the rule of law, and mine is simply an opinion that happens to fit the facts. When I dive into an ideological battle with an opponent (or even an enemy), I don't want to be caught with my pants around my ankles because my evidence wasn't watertight. I'm pragmatic like that, so I make sure I'm armed with the facts and don't pretend to know things that I don't.

    And call me old-fashioned, but investigative journalism goes much further than just digging up Twitter accounts and postulating on what it could be. The New York Times and Washington Post have done some brilliant investigative work on Putin's manipulation of the US election. They've acquired recordings, first-hand statements, email correspondence. The US intelligence community has acquired records of financial transactions from Facebook and Twitter. These are what constitute proof. The US could walk up to Putin and rightfully call him out on it, and Putin wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

    We haven't seen this kind of investigative journalism in the UK. That's not because the evidence isn't there. It's simply because the British media is made up of a corrupt mass of oligarchs whose coverage only seeks to cement their own influence. The BBC is probably the closest we have to investigative journalism but they are way too timid. The Guardian is also good at investigative work but has tainted its credibility by veering too far to the left.

    For all we know, UK intelligence may well be keeping their cards close to their chest so that the Russians don't have a chance to manipulate incriminating evidence.

    But it's important that people start learning the difference between "assertions", "indications", "suspicions" and "facts". We're precisely in the shit right now because people storm into debates like a bull in a china shop.
  • Tonka 14 Nov 2017 10:57:40 26,482 posts
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    FilthyAnimal wrote:
    Tonka wrote:
    Putin has everything in place already. The bot nets, the humans running them. The prepared strategies and messages.
    He benefits from a divided Europe.

    He can make that a reality by just pointing what he already have in a new direction.

    Why do you think he didn't?
    He almost certainly has the means and the will. And from a personal point of view, I believe that he did manipulate the EU referendum.
    Thank you.
  • Technoishmatt 14 Nov 2017 11:00:28 2,081 posts
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    I saw the Hillary Clinton interview on Graham Norton, and she explained that at least having seen the Russian interference in US election amd Brexit, other Europeans were able to be prepared for Russian interference. Which is why far right did not end up doing so well in French, German elections.

    She said Macron wrote a bunch of false emails during his campaign, so that when he was hacked (by Russians), which he was, he could ridicule them as being false, which he did. My French government colleagues confirmed this.

    I have no doubt putin bots are all over UK politics, and that their disinformstion has had a real impact. We are happy to say that a certain brand of media has quite a lot of control over opinion in the UK, but you have to realise how much people are increasingly relying on social media for their news, which is where the bots operate. It is not for nothing that Facebook revenues grew by 47% in last quarter (which is insane).
  • reviewer 14 Nov 2017 11:04:11 4,744 posts
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    Zomoniac wrote:
    A friend's husband has been in the army for 10 years and voted leave on the grouds that "we're not the British army anymore, we're being turned into the EU army but nobody's reporting on it". Because presumably this information is widely known by all low-ranking staff but has been a successfully guarded secret from everyone else.

    When I asked him why that would even be a bad thing he couldn't give me an answer.
    I have some knowledge of this but it's nonsense. We're sharing R&D because it works out much cheaper for all, the troops from different countries coordinate where it's applicable.

    Low ranking military staff aren't a great source of understanding the military.

    Britain has been the veto on any further integration of militaries. If we're against that we should have voted to stay in the EU.

    Edited by reviewer at 11:09:01 14-11-2017
  • Deleted user 14 November 2017 11:05:33
    LittleSparra wrote:
    I can see why that would be a bad thing, I just don't see how it would happen.
    I cant see how intergration with europe on anything would be a bad thing. I dont like the financial model the first world countries take, but it is what it is and beyond the control plebs lThe thing often left out of the EU discussion is war was constant for centuries in europe before ww2. People say oh that will never happen again. Like fuck. Trump, global warming etc, anythings possible.
  • oceanmotion 14 Nov 2017 11:06:48 17,260 posts
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    DaM wrote:
    An EU army (which isn't actually a thing, they just want increased co-operation) is a trigger for Brexiters, the suggestion makes them crazy. I've never understood the hate it inspires in them.

    But it is also something that Russia doesn't want.
    It makes the UK military more irrelevant on the world stage which annoys people who think Britain was awesome in colonial times and still are if it wasn't for the EU!

    Also, I would laugh if BAE got screwed by Brexit and weren't on the table for better cooperation and procurement and speaking of that, this is what it really is and only a good thing.
  • Mfolf 14 Nov 2017 11:27:01 1,426 posts
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    There will be a proper EU army in the future. And ultimately I think thatís a good thing.
  • nudistpete 14 Nov 2017 11:43:34 159 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    It is not for nothing that Facebook revenues grew by 47% in last quarter (which is insane).
    Is it amusing or horrifying that Zuckerberg is going to launch his political career of the back of so much Russian trollbot money?
  • brokenkey 14 Nov 2017 11:56:43 9,085 posts
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    LittleSparra wrote:
    I can see why that would be a bad thing, I just don't see how it would happen.
    https://qz.com/1127984/eu-army-bloc-forging-ahead-with-its-military-integration-to-shake-off-us-dependence/
  • FilthyAnimal 14 Nov 2017 12:14:58 163 posts
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    I think EU integration does need to slow down for a bit. The pace of EU integration has been absolutely blinding over the past quarter of a century and I do have a certain degree of empathy for the sentiment (as much as it stems from ignorance) that the pace of integration is too fast.

    Even the most proudly European and pro-Euro among us aren't ignorant of the facts, specifically the fact that the EU (and by extension, the Eurozone) has a number of emerging markets that are often dependent on different monetary and fiscal policy to maintain their economies. That's not to say that the Greek meltdown was the Euro's fault - it wasn't. That clusterfuck was a disaster of Greece's own making over several decades. But the recovery was hampered somewhat by the Euro.

    For what it's worth, the benefits of the Euro far outweigh the disadvantages. The comparable stability of the single currency makes it much more viable to do business with emerging markets like Greece. Currency volatility in general is a dreadful thing to deal with. That's specifically why I don't do business with UK clients anymore, and certainly not denominated in sterling.

    As far as the idea of an "EU army" is concerned, which is essentially nothing more than closer cooperation, I was actually opposed to the idea pre-Brexit but ironically am now even somewhat more in favour of it. Individually the EU member states are easy pickings militarily for both the US and Russia (neither of which can be trusted at this point) and NATO is somewhat mired in bureaucracy. I'm not too keen on the EU having influence over the use of member state forces for peacekeeping missions abroad, but in a defensive capacity, anything that helps ensure a fast response to aggression against the EU as a single body (either militarily or by way of cyber warfare) should be welcomed.
  • nudistpete 14 Nov 2017 12:24:16 159 posts
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    FilthyAnimal wrote:
    That's specifically why I don't do business with UK clients anymore, and certainly not denominated in sterling.
    So you don't do business with clients in the UK because of currency uncertainty, and despite not doing business with UK clients you'd definitely absolutely positively not do any business with those clients you wouldn't do business with anyway in Sterling. Err.. OK.

    The point about the pace of integration was interesting, though. A few times I heard people moan about "we joined the EC for trade, not for rules on (vacuum cleaners|bendy bananas|human rights)" and yet no messaging came from the Remain campaign about why these things are important, just a vague "it'll keep workers rights!".

    It's frustrating that the leave campaigns (note: plural) were so loud and brash and captured the public's imagination. The remain campaign had Bob Geldof getting sunk in the Thames. It was a wholly emotive campaign and Remain failed so badly.. :-(
  • LittleSparra 14 Nov 2017 12:29:46 7,005 posts
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    brokenkey wrote:
    LittleSparra wrote:
    I can see why that would be a bad thing, I just don't see how it would happen.
    https://qz.com/1127984/eu-army-bloc-forging-ahead-with-its-military-integration-to-shake-off-us-dependence/
    I meant more the specifoc example of the British armed forces.
  • FilthyAnimal 14 Nov 2017 12:35:02 163 posts
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    nudistpete wrote:
    So you don't do business with clients in the UK because of currency uncertainty, and despite not doing business with UK clients you'd definitely absolutely positively not do any business with those clients you wouldn't do business with anyway in Sterling. Err.. OK.
    I'll try and explain this. I had one client in the UK who I billed in euros (because I live in Germany). I don't have more than that because most insist on billing in sterling and because it's basically my living I can't afford to have my five-figure annual income dictated by currency volatility.

    I was working with that one client when the EU referendum struck and sterling collapsed. To their credit, that particular client did pay their invoice in full after a bit of a delay because sterling had depreciated against the euro by 20% in the time between the project starting and ending. So of course, they had to budget in a price increase of around 20%. But it's not a risk I'd like to take again. I'm a small business working with other small businesses mostly and this kind of shift outside of our control can easily bankrupt me or my clients.

    So it's not just a matter of getting paid in a currency whose worth is unknown from day to day. It's also a matter of the creditworthiness of your clients, especially their ability to pay if their accounting currency drops through the floor.

    Edited by FilthyAnimal at 12:36:14 14-11-2017
  • Tonka 14 Nov 2017 12:51:01 26,482 posts
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    nudistpete wrote:
    [Is it amusing or horrifying that Zuckerberg is going to launch his political career of the back of so much Russian trollbot money?
    I'm hoping he will run for president just to see what a guy who owns the largest media company ever could accomplish.

    He's one spectacularly naÔve guy though. Seriously unfit for the role. Almost more so than Trump.
  • nudistpete 14 Nov 2017 12:57:35 159 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    He's [Zuckerberg] one spectacularly naÔve guy though. Seriously unfit for the role. Almost more so than Trump.
    I'd say that Trump and George W both go to show how the office of President has little relevance any more. They're there to deliver soundbites and shake the hands of foreign leaders, while the real wheeling and dealing is done by more competent, or more well connected, people.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Nov 2017 13:41:56 4,717 posts
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    Goodwill ambassador

    Tommy Robinson

    The Tommy Robinson

    Goodwill ambassador

    https://twitter.com/themmbf/status/930160588956798976
  • DocDawg 14 Nov 2017 13:47:29 159 posts
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    People got up and left. We pulled out of Europe and became and isolated, small, insular, old, ageing economy. We became an old peopleís home that couldnít pay for itself.

    That I see as a very real prospect and it chills me to the bone. It is an extreme choice but I think that is the choice we face as a country and the question whether we as a generation rise to it and grip it.
    From Tory MP, George Freeman. Sounds about right. So few people are actually warning people, and most of the media really seems not to give a shit.

    But, I really think a hard brexit is going to happen. David Miliband said something I agree with. If we want regulatory divergence, the only option is crashing out of the EU.

    If we want any trade deal, whatsoever we will have to agree to EU being able to give us massive fines for taking investment and business by undercutting the EU in regulations. It's why Miliband thinks there will be a hard brexit.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Nov 2017 13:57:57 3,376 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    Goodwill ambassador

    Tommy Robinson

    The Tommy Robinson

    Goodwill ambassador

    https://twitter.com/themmbf/status/930160588956798976
    I actually can't believe that. 2017 has been interesting year hasn't it.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Nov 2017 14:09:45 4,717 posts
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    Still, good news for all those budding young Riefenstahls out there looking for a funding grant
  • StarchildHypocrethes 14 Nov 2017 14:12:20 30,731 posts
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    I have no idea what the MMBF is, so just googled it.

    MMBF Trust is a fund set up to support young people with an interest to follow a career within the film industry or young people who would like to become pilots.
    Obviously...

    Edited by StarchildHypocrethes at 14:12:58 14-11-2017
  • whatfruitlivesagain 14 Nov 2017 14:13:44 539 posts
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    First production is 12 years a Brexiteer.
  • whatfruitlivesagain 14 Nov 2017 14:14:38 539 posts
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    The Boys From Barnsley.

    Edited by whatfruitlivesagain at 14:16:11 14-11-2017
  • FilthyAnimal 14 Nov 2017 14:17:56 163 posts
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    Triumph of the Will 2: The Return of the Glorious Empire.
  • DukeSilver 14 Nov 2017 14:18:12 2,419 posts
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    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    I have no idea what the MMBF is, so just googled it.

    MMBF Trust is a fund set up to support young people with an interest to follow a career within the film industry or young people who would like to become pilots.
    Obviously...
    Preferably flying planes that only have a right wing.

  • FilthyAnimal 14 Nov 2017 14:22:08 163 posts
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    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    I have no idea what the MMBF is, so just googled it.

    MMBF Trust is a fund set up to support young people with an interest to follow a career within the film industry or young people who would like to become pilots.
    Obviously...
    I did the same and the "Matthew Martino" of the name is a black Zimbabwean who seems largely apolitical on the face of things, which makes this all the more baffling. I wonder if he and his foundation have absolutely no idea who Tommy Robinson is.
  • captbirdseye 14 Nov 2017 14:24:09 8,130 posts
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    Hehe, a convicted fraudster as an ambassador.
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