Donald Trump, first orange US President Page 726

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  • Dirtbox 12 Aug 2017 23:53:21 89,008 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    Fascism:

    - seeks to remove parliamentary system -> Trump doesn't
    - uses organised militia/goon squads -> Trump doesn't
    - typically builds internment (concentration) camps to get rid of political opponents -> Trump doesn't
    - demands deep strong state -> Trump doesn't
    - strictly regulates society and economy -> Trump doesn't

    There are parallels, and he may have no problem with fascists, but that doesn't make him a fascist himself. I'd even say the term gives him more credit than he deserves, because it implies that he has an ideology. His only ideology is Trump. He's an unscrupulous, narcissist, decadent, antisocial, retarded manchild. Not a fascist.

    I'm against calling people fascist only to give them a most damning label. You can be a despicable cunt without being fascist.
    Trump isn't a fascist I agree, but he is #1 with fascists.





    The thing is, Americans haven't got a clue what Nazis are about, they just think they're about white supremacy, the socio politics behind fascism are irrelevant in their eyes.

    Edited by Dirtbox at 23:59:42 12-08-2017
  • Skirlasvoud 12 Aug 2017 23:55:05 2,365 posts
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    Trump musing about a military strike against the "death and chaos" in Venezuela while Charlottesville is a pressure cooker.

    Why not get your own country in order first Donald? You can barely get a grip on your own Staff.
  • Dirtbox 12 Aug 2017 23:55:54 89,008 posts
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    Wasn't his chant "America First"?
  • JamboWayOh 13 Aug 2017 00:03:48 967 posts
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    Yeah, as in America will bomb or nuke first. As Spicer said you shouldn't listen to his words but pay attention to his actions.
  • reddevil93 13 Aug 2017 00:16:10 13,419 posts
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    DreadedWalrus wrote:
    @reddevil93 Apparently, he was a Muslim. Apparently.

    Oh, and he was a Black Lives Matter supporter too.
    Like does an innocent person dying not get these people to cop the fuck on?

    Senator Hatch:
    "We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home. -OGH"

    How is this happening in 21st century America?
  • mal 13 Aug 2017 00:39:04 28,002 posts
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    mecha-DR wrote:
    America don't regard themselves as a country, they act more like an empire. International laws and norms are what other countries have to abide by.
    Team America; Fuck Yeah!
  • DrStrangelove 13 Aug 2017 00:44:24 10,743 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    Trump isn't a fascist I agree, but he is #1 with fascists.

    The thing is, Americans haven't got a clue what Nazis are about, they just think they're about white supremacy, the socio politics behind fascism are irrelevant in their eyes.
    I don't think the masses of European fascists know what it's about either, they're just dumb masses craving for someone to tell them what to do. I just think it makes a difference if you have a leadership following a fascist agenda to rebuild the state, or a leadership that doesn't give a fuck as long as Trump is the greatest guy ever.
  • neilka 13 Aug 2017 01:16:32 20,274 posts
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    Evening Fruit
  • Dirtbox 13 Aug 2017 09:56:03 89,008 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    Dirtbox wrote:
    Trump isn't a fascist I agree, but he is #1 with fascists.

    The thing is, Americans haven't got a clue what Nazis are about, they just think they're about white supremacy, the socio politics behind fascism are irrelevant in their eyes.
    I don't think the masses of European fascists know what it's about either, they're just dumb masses craving for someone to tell them what to do. I just think it makes a difference if you have a leadership following a fascist agenda to rebuild the state, or a leadership that doesn't give a fuck as long as Trump is the greatest guy ever.
    Thinking about it a little further, you're wrong. Trump is a fascist within the bounds you bulletpointed. Let's re-examine your points.

    - seeks to remove parliamentary system -> Trump is firing everyone that disagrees with him.
    - uses organised militia/goon squads -> Trump is on record calling for people to be beaten at his rallies, endorsing the use of greater violence in a recent speech to the police.
    - typically builds internment (concentration) camps to get rid of political opponents -> Hilary for jail, exploring the possibility of internment camps for Muslims.
    - demands deep strong state -> America First
    - strictly regulates society and economy -> Muslim flight ban, English speaking immigrants only, tax breaks for the rich taken directly from the poor, attempts to destroy health care for the poor. So on and on.

    You forgot about trying to control the media as well.

    According to that, trump is a fascist within the grounds of what the constitution will allow, and the only thing that stands between him and full on Hitler is a protected freedom of speech. Which incidentally, he is trying to dismantle as well by attacking the freedom of the press, threatening leakers and calling everything that disagrees with him fake news.

    Hell, he couldn't even do this https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/896483980857532416

    Edited by Dirtbox at 10:20:00 13-08-2017
  • Tonka 13 Aug 2017 10:26:46 25,705 posts
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    Plus he's relying on executive orders rather than passing bills
  • Boriska 13 Aug 2017 10:38:12 347 posts
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    Lots of stuff floating about around Trump laying the ground work for supressing voters at the next election as well as wanting to change parliamentary rules so he can enact legislation easily.

    He's threatened the media on multiple occasions in various ways and his Whitehouse have threatened to force the press to give up their sources. He has created his own state/Trump media.

    Fascism doesn't have to be binary, it can develop and take from you in increments.

    Edited by Boriska at 10:41:02 13-08-2017
  • DrStrangelove 13 Aug 2017 14:01:29 10,743 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:

    Thinking about it a little further, you're wrong. Trump is a fascist within the bounds you bulletpointed. Let's re-examine your points.

    - seeks to remove parliamentary system -> Trump is firing everyone that disagrees with him.
    He does, but how does that equate the removal of the parliamentary system? Those firings have nothing to do with the parliament, he can't fire congressmen. He clearly doesn't respect congress and would be glad to get rid of it, but I can't see any serious intent to do so. With the possible exception of Bannon, very most people he hired for his government would condemn any such attempt. He's authoritarianist, but again, that doesn't equal fascist.

    - uses organised militia/goon squads -> Trump is on record calling for people to be beaten at his rallies, endorsing the use of greater violence in a recent speech to the police.
    I was fully aware of that when writing it, the emphasis is on the actual organisation. Organised militia that suppress opposition with terror are at the core of fascist parties--perhaps it is the core of fascism, use of violence as the ideological primary means of achieving political goals. Trump flirts with political violence, I do see the parallels, but I see that mostly as strongman rhetoric without any plan or system.

    - typically builds internment (concentration) camps to get rid of political opponents -> Hilary for jail, exploring the possibility of internment camps for Muslims.
    A desire to imprison opposition leaders is a trait of any authoritarian regime, not just fascist ones. Erecting internment camps for Muslims, if pursued seriously, would seem pretty fascist, I'll agree with that. Even though what I was trying to say that fascist concentration camps were unlawful "islands" where state law was void even before they overtook the state.

    - demands deep strong state -> America First
    He seeks to push back the state, viciously cutting expenses everywhere except for military. That may remind of military dictatorships, but is the opposite of the totalitarian ideology of fascism which wants an overblown state that controls every last corner of society.

    - strictly regulates society and economy -> Muslim flight ban, English speaking immigrants only, tax breaks for the rich taken directly from the poor, attempts to destroy health care for the poor. So on and on.
    I was aiming at the corporatist (vs. free-market capitalist) nature of fascism and its strong socialist elements. Fascism doesn't deregulate, it gives orders to companies if it deems it necessary to serve state and community. It invests hugely into "education", youth organisations, workers' organisations and whatever you can imagine being organised. The nazis organised recreational programs for workers etc. Tax breaks for the rich and destruction of health care for the poor go in the opposite direction and have much more in common with oldschool capitalism--and in fact, with military dictatorships like Pinochet's--than with fascism.

    Selecting immigrants on the basis of their abilities is hardly uncommon, and a Muslim travel ban, while being islamophobe, doesn't have a particular "fascist" quality in my opinion. Being islamophobe sadly seems to be very widespread all over the world, certainly not only among actual fascists.

    You forgot about trying to control the media as well.
    I think that would only reinforce my point. Fascism does absolutely not tolerate opposition press and does all it can to eradicate it. Trump berates the "fake news", he may refuse to talk with them, but he doesn't seem to take measures to actually suppress them. Any self-respecting fascist should laugh at his slavish consumption of Fox and Friends and his promotion of pathetic "real news" videos hosted by his daughter-in-law.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 14:19:45 13-08-2017
  • ubergine 13 Aug 2017 17:15:15 7,161 posts
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    I've no doubt that, after undermining the existing government institutions by installing people who openly want to destroy those institutions as their leader, he would replace them with monuments to himself, if given the chance. It's a long game.
  • mecha-DR 13 Aug 2017 17:52:24 208 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:


    Hell, he couldn't even do this https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/896483980857532416
    These are the telling things for me. If he was totally about self-glory, he would bend in the wind in massive areas like this. But he won't, because he comes from his fathers world, and he really is racist and fascist.
  • spindizzy 14 Aug 2017 11:58:43 7,597 posts
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    Rubio is a massive, massive hypocrite.

    https://twitter.com/3fecta/status/897044041443028992
  • Dirtbox 14 Aug 2017 14:17:06 89,008 posts
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    Hypocrite is pretty much the GOP modus operandi though.
  • DrStrangelove 14 Aug 2017 18:16:05 10,743 posts
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    So apparently he's reacted to the criticism now and said: "Racism is evil and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."
  • reddevil93 14 Aug 2017 18:22:24 13,419 posts
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    Yeah, read that teleprompter so well. Hopefully it mains some of the nazis turn on him though.
  • Dirtbox 14 Aug 2017 18:24:59 89,008 posts
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    That's 40% of his voter base.
  • Dirtbox 14 Aug 2017 18:26:04 89,008 posts
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    A new low on the polls.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx
  • FilthyAnimal 14 Aug 2017 18:45:27 9 posts
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    When seeing Trump read that statement, you can't help but see him as a (man)child breaking someone's window, being forced to apologise by his parents, coming up with all kinds of excuses, and then only apologising when he's threatened with being grounded.

    Still, at least it's some semblance of leadership, even if only insincerely meant. Trump's probably signed his own political death warrant (and depending on how the far right react, possibly actual death warrant), but that's the price you pay for a life of dishonesty. One half-right does not make good on an entire career of wrongs.

    Edited by FilthyAnimal at 18:48:57 14-08-2017
  • Duffking 14 Aug 2017 18:48:51 14,405 posts
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    Yeah didn't seem sincere at all, especially when it took what, the better the part of 3 days for him to denounce a group of people who are essentially the enemy of the country he pretends to care about, whom millions died fighting to ensure that he can sit his cheeto dust covered arse doing fuck all all day, but about 5 minutes to rail against nordstrom and someone who quit their job this morning.
  • Duffking 14 Aug 2017 18:49:43 14,405 posts
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    Insiders also claim that he was begged by WH staff repeatedly to make a clearer condemnation and refused repeatedly.

    As far as I'm concerned, the only reasons you could have for taking so long to properly condemn them is if you either don't care, or you support their cause.
  • reddevil93 14 Aug 2017 18:59:37 13,419 posts
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    He's condemned Kristen Stewart and Meryl Streep quicker than Nazi's. If he gives a crap about something it doesn't take him long to let people know.
  • LittleSparra 14 Aug 2017 19:00:14 6,434 posts
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    The key for his opponents is to set that statement in context: length of time, begging by aides, contrasting behavior when about other things. Trump is a toad.
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