XCOM 2 - Welcome back (PC) Commanders Page 36

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  • ubergine 5 Sep 2017 10:08:57 7,476 posts
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    I played hell out of Enemy Unknown and generally consider this my favourite genre. An easy run would annoy me more than a difficult one, but I think a restart on Normal is definitely in order before I go much further.

    Trying to decide if I should even wait for the DLC that's just out / about to be out.
  • ubergine 5 Sep 2017 11:59:12 7,476 posts
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    Damn, normal difficulty (whatever they call it here) isn't much easier. The map changed to something actually less easy than on the harder difficulty and it was only through some serious save scumming that I randomly got a round where the enemy managed to miss all my guys one time, and got through with all of them only gravely wounded instead of dead.

    They're not kidding around with this game!
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 5 Sep 2017 12:06:45 1,915 posts
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    @ubergine Yes, I meant what I said before. Rookie should be the starting point for all new XCom 2 players, even those with some XCom 1 experience.

    They really should have done more to emphasise this. Perhaps make the "new game" menu screen only show Rookie as an option by default for new profiles, requiring the manual ticking of a box with "you will regret this" style warnings for those who want to proceed.

    It's a harder game than XCom 1 by default and the volume of stuff it expects you to pick up early in the campaign is pretty intense.

    Edit: In fairness, once you actually know what you're doing, you can powergame XCom 2 in a way that makes the harder difficulty settings less of a step up than you might expect. The problem is that you've got little chance of making it through that learning curve unless you start on Rookie.

    Edited by Rogueywon at 12:07:49 05-09-2017
  • ubergine 5 Sep 2017 12:34:39 7,476 posts
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    Yeah, it's kicking my arse so far. I hate starting games on easy though because usually, once you've a handle on the systems, it barely needs my input, and restarting is more tedious than a steep learning curve. I'll see how I go with the second setting.
  • Mola_Ram 5 Sep 2017 12:38:12 16,334 posts
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    I can tell you now, Rookie was far from "easy mode". If I hadn't been save-scumming, I would have had multiple party wipes before I learned everything.

    But that's more me being completely new to the series. I have a much better handle on things now, I think.
  • ubergine 5 Sep 2017 12:38:55 7,476 posts
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    It doesn't help that the game literally does not work. Two guys I left on overwatch before I threw a grenade with a third again failed to act, letting the aliens right next to them run away. A strategy game where obvious strategies don't even function is a pretty shit strategy game.
  • Mola_Ram 5 Sep 2017 12:41:35 16,334 posts
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    I can't say I had problems getting Overwatch to work. The weird thing was when it worked *too* well, like how my guys could somehow shoot through multiple ceilings and walls to kill something that they shouldn't have even been able to see.
  • AaronTurner 5 Sep 2017 12:43:25 9,555 posts
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    ubergine wrote:
    It doesn't help that the game literally does not work. Two guys I left on overwatch before I threw a grenade with a third again failed to act, letting the aliens right next to them run away. A strategy game where obvious strategies don't even function is a pretty shit strategy game.
    Are you sure they had line of sight or that the aliens didn't have an ability to not trigger overwatch? I haven't had any problems myself.
  • JamboWayOh 5 Sep 2017 12:49:50 3,362 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    I can't say I had problems getting Overwatch to work. The weird thing was when it worked *too* well, like how my guys could somehow shoot through multiple ceilings and walls to kill something that they shouldn't have even been able to see.
    Yeah, I definitely noticed that little quirk. Like others have said rookie should be normal difficulty as standard. As much as I like games that respect my intelligence, this game just assumes you know all of its mechanics and don't get me started on the distinct lack of communication concerning radio relays. It's very much a game for veterans as opposed to one designed to attract new fans. I still fucking love it, as you really feel like you've earned your kills or when you escape just as a group of MEC reinforcements turn up. Fuck MECs and their long range missile attack!
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 5 Sep 2017 13:14:47 1,915 posts
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    Lines of sight in XC2 are a bit broken anyway, which is probably why so few game mechanics actually make use of line of sight (they do use a cover-calculation, but line of sight isn't a big factor in it). I suspect it's an artefact of the procedurally generated levels, which mean it isn't possible to pre-calculate sight-lines in the way that was possible for XC1.

    Certainly, across a 100+ hour LW2 playthrough, the number of occasions on which shots were passing clean through seemingly impassable obstacles was pretty high.
  • ubergine 5 Sep 2017 13:34:29 7,476 posts
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    I'm going to have to start keeping video of it because I cannot tell if these things are bugs or unreadable game mechanics.

    The mobs in question were two grunts on the second level of the game. I doubt they had any esoteric "won't trigger overwatch" abilities. My guys were behind half-cover (garbage bin, low crate etc) right in front of them.

    Maybe the grenade throw has some kind of effect. I'll see if that autosave still exists when I get home, or just start the level from scratch again.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 5 Sep 2017 15:09:34 1,915 posts
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    @ubergine That sounds like something isn't working properly to me. Either there was something "off" in the scenario that isn't included in your description, or else the game had thrown up a bug. I wouldn't rule out the latter; I've run into a few bugs in XC2 across a number of playthroughs.

    Or perhaps it was a sight radius thing? Overwatch shots won't trigger if the moving enemy is outside of the character in question's sight radius, even if another character can see them (though there is a mid-level ability for marksmen that lets them bypass this restriction).

    If a character is in overwatch and an enemy that is in their sight radius moves, then an overwatch should trigger. You can only trigger one overwatch shot per character per turn, of course, without a certain ability available at high ranks. The passive abilities that grant limited immunity to overwatch shots should only be available late in the game, so I doubt it was that.
  • ubergine 5 Sep 2017 16:34:34 7,476 posts
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    No, there's definitely something unpredictable going on with characters set up in overwatch. In this instance I had two standing together behind a crate, would aggro up the mobs with a third and two mobs come out of a building. Neither fired one time, only one fired another time. The mobs are RIGHT in front of them.

    It may be something to do with reloading the game - they are in overwatch when I loaded. I've noticed other characters behaving oddly on a reload.

    Anyway, I wound up finishing that level, and the following one was an unexpected cakewalk.

    I'm not frustrated with it, I'm a serial reloader of these kinds of games. I'm just puzzled at the behaviour. If it is a bug that came in 1.4 the other day (I took ages to get around to starting this) hopefully it's patched soon. I'll just use varied tactics in the meantime.
  • Mola_Ram 6 Sep 2017 12:00:01 16,334 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    @Mola_Ram If concealment is broken, then aliens can always see you once "activated". Aliens are always activated once they enter the line of sight of a member of your squad who is not in concealment and they will never de-activate until killed.

    There is a skill which allows a soldier to re-enter concealment under certain circumstances (or at least, there is in Long War 2 - can't remember if it is in the main game). But other than that, once your squad has left concealment, any aliens you can see can also see you - and they will continue to be able to see you even if you run away from them or otherwise break line of sight.
    I just think it's a bit rich when I'm edging forward with a blue move into cover like I'm supposed to do, see a group of aliens, and then they instantly get to run away and hide. Even though I saw them first, and even though my own soldiers don't get the same advantage.

    I guess I could use scanners or something to see faraway enemies, but even then I need to get closer to be able to shoot them, with the same result as in the first paragraph.

    It's not a deal breaker or anything, but it's definitely a weird sort of system.
  • Mola_Ram 6 Sep 2017 12:01:26 16,334 posts
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    And yeah, Rangers get to conceal themselves again as one of their skills. Only problem is, the alternative is something like Run and Gun, which is probably the skill I used the most throughout the campaign.
  • cs96and 6 Sep 2017 13:20:02 178 posts
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    Picked this up for 12 from the PS Store. Bloody hell its a lot more difficult than XCOM 1 isn't it? I'm not ashamed to say I have been save-scumming like crazy, and that was just the first couple of missions!

    However, I was quite proud of myself last night. I managed to complete a mission without save-scumming and with only 1 gravely wounded recruit (though it was my sniper, grrr).
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 6 Sep 2017 14:05:45 1,915 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:

    I just think it's a bit rich when I'm edging forward with a blue move into cover like I'm supposed to do, see a group of aliens, and then they instantly get to run away and hide. Even though I saw them first, and even though my own soldiers don't get the same advantage.

    I guess I could use scanners or something to see faraway enemies, but even then I need to get closer to be able to shoot them, with the same result as in the first paragraph.

    It's not a deal breaker or anything, but it's definitely a weird sort of system.
    Yes, as I've said before, if they do an XCom 3 (and I hope they do, and that it is what the ending to XC2 implies it will be), then they need to completely overhaul this element of the tactical gameplay. As I understand it, the encounter mechanic in these games was designed to counter certain types of overpowered playstyle, particularly rush-tactics. But it instead encourages an ultra-cautious style where you always try to let the enemy discover you, rather than vice-versa. Their attempt at solving this for XC2 - the turn limit - misfired.

    Letting the balance swing back towards fast-assault based rush tactics might mix up the gameplay a bit anyway. Or you could even go an old-school AD&D route with some sort of (invisible) "roll for initiative" when an encounter happens.
  • GarlVinland 6 Sep 2017 14:33:22 2,162 posts
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    The wait for this on PS4 is excruciating. :(

    The possibilities just from the Skirmisher and Reaper skill trees look spectacular!

    Destiny will be but a stopgap until this arrives...
  • Mr_Sleep 6 Sep 2017 14:36:10 21,313 posts
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    Been playing the expansion for a few hours and all the new stuff is quite intriguing but fuck me, it is an absolutely ridiculous level of information to take in. I have barely done anything but read about the new stuff available. Couple of missions and I'm already confused about what the point of all the new stuff is.

    I started on Normal Ironman to get a feel for it and I forgot how much easier it is, I have missed only a few shots and none of them have had a catastrophic effect, I have taken 1 damage after the first mission where someone got a bit damaged. While that is fine it does also feel weird to not have that much jeopardy. I'm sure this will change as it inevitably ramps up but at the moment it is the information boss that is doing me the most harm.
  • Mola_Ram 10 Sep 2017 06:49:00 16,334 posts
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    FFS, some of the bugs in this game are stupid.

    I was on an avenger defence mission (the one where you have to stop aliens from getting inside your base), after the point where reinforcements start showing up every turn. Most of my guys are helping the Ranger disable the jammer thing, with a few closer to the base on guard.

    Then I see an enemy flare... right in the middle of the place I'm supposed to protect at all costs. "No", I think. "That must be some mistake. They can't land right there, because that would be bullshit."

    But they did, and one of them survived my panicked overwatch shots, and I got a Game Over for it. Thank god I wasn't playing in Iron Man - if I had, I think I would have broken something.
  • Mola_Ram 10 Sep 2017 07:03:26 16,334 posts
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    I mean, I *assume* it's a bug. I'm fine with reinforcements spawning close to the area I have to protect, because at least then I get a chance to deal with them.

    But literally right on top of it? Hell no.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 10 Sep 2017 10:01:57 1,915 posts
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    @Mola_Ram Must surely be a bug. Done that mission multiple times on both a normal playthrough and Long War 2 and never seen reinforcements spawn anywhere near the "defend" area. To be honest, while that's a tough mission, I've never found the "defend the ramp" part of it particularly tough - it's getting the jammer down before you get overwhelmed and your squad dies that's a challenge.
  • Mola_Ram 10 Sep 2017 10:23:37 16,334 posts
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    My eyes literally went O_o when I saw it. And no, I didn't have much trouble with defending the last time I did the mission on Rookie, but I didn't have aliens teleporting right into my base then either. :)

    Luckily I could reload a save from a couple turns back and rush more guys down there to overwatch.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 10:32:01 10-09-2017
  • AaronTurner 10 Sep 2017 10:41:27 9,555 posts
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    ubergine wrote:
    No, there's definitely something unpredictable going on with characters set up in overwatch. In this instance I had two standing together behind a crate, would aggro up the mobs with a third and two mobs come out of a building. Neither fired one time, only one fired another time. The mobs are RIGHT in front of them.

    It may be something to do with reloading the game - they are in overwatch when I loaded. I've noticed other characters behaving oddly on a reload.

    Anyway, I wound up finishing that level, and the following one was an unexpected cakewalk.

    I'm not frustrated with it, I'm a serial reloader of these kinds of games. I'm just puzzled at the behaviour. If it is a bug that came in 1.4 the other day (I took ages to get around to starting this) hopefully it's patched soon. I'll just use varied tactics in the meantime.
    Are your characters concealed?
  • the_dudefather 10 Sep 2017 11:09:06 10,466 posts
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    Just started vanilla game, one thing that absolutely messed me up in the previous game was Aliens invading your base, and every one of my soldiers didn't have anything equipped because I used the option to take items from everyone too often because otherwise it was a pain to get an active squad ready

    Should I worry about that in this game?
  • Mola_Ram 10 Sep 2017 11:11:35 16,334 posts
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    There's only one mission where that happens (the one I mentioned a couple of comments ago). And you get to use all your soldiers for it, including wounded/reserve soldiers. So I wouldn't worry too much.
  • SteveHolt 10 Sep 2017 17:51:15 449 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    @ubergine Yes, I meant what I said before. Rookie should be the starting point for all new XCom 2 players, even those with some XCom 1 experience.

    They really should have done more to emphasise this. Perhaps make the "new game" menu screen only show Rookie as an option by default for new profiles, requiring the manual ticking of a box with "you will regret this" style warnings for those who want to proceed.

    It's a harder game than XCom 1 by default and the volume of stuff it expects you to pick up early in the campaign is pretty intense.

    Edit: In fairness, once you actually know what you're doing, you can powergame XCom 2 in a way that makes the harder difficulty settings less of a step up than you might expect. The problem is that you've got little chance of making it through that learning curve unless you start on Rookie.
    I respectfully disagree. Disclaimer: I'm talking about veteran difficulty, iron man.

    The (huge) difference between xcom1 and this for me is that you actually can afford to fail a few missions in the early game in xcom2.
    In my experience with the original, the satellite rush at the beginning meant that every mission was vital. In the sequel, the most important thing early on is to keep your guys alive so they can level up, and they do even when you fail the objective. Much better than reloading saves until you get lucky, especially on ps4, because the loading times are so severe, it just kills the flow of the game.
  • Mola_Ram 12 Sep 2017 03:48:42 16,334 posts
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    I can now confirm that the load times on PS4 remain pretty bad, even with the expansion. I'm half tempted to give Iron Man a go, just so there's no temptation to reload (and wait forever) if/when I fuck up.

    I'd actually really like a sort of half Iron Man mode, that only lets you save on the map screen or before going on a mission. Call it "Fire Emblem mode" if you like.
  • MrFlay 12 Sep 2017 08:42:35 3,593 posts
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    From reports it seems like the game is completely broken on Xbox One and very buggy on PS4. 2k Games are denying any issues so buyer beware.
  • Mola_Ram 12 Sep 2017 09:34:51 16,334 posts
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    Well, I haven't noticed any bugs so far (aside from the usual silliness), but it's still early days.
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