The Pope Page 4

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  • Deleted user 1 April 2005 10:43:22
    Lutz wrote:
    Djini wrote:
    Who the fuck 'verbally spat on' a dying man?
    Peekaboo wrote:
    Prop him up on a stick, keep the flies off him and no-one will notice for years. Sorted.

    I fail to see how what peekaboo said, amounts to him being verbally spat on.

    just how 'animated' has this pope been recently? His public appearences have been pretty similar to Peekaboo's decription for a while now (Metaphorically speaking).

    In my mind, the 'crewlty' here is the vatican not 'retireing' the pope and continuing to 'prop him up' dispite his obvious ill health. He should have been allowed to reach the end of his live without the constant disturbances required of a pope. Allowing his to retire would have decreased the endless burden. It would have also allowed him to be replaced with a more active and able pope, which would have done Catholism more good.

    Peekaboo is (I suggest) speaking about this in his (albeit rather crude) metaphore. He might have put it with better tact, but he's not exactly wrong here.
  • RubyRed 1 Apr 2005 10:44:06 4,303 posts
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  • ssuellid 1 Apr 2005 10:45:03 19,141 posts
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    RubyRed wrote:
    There's also the occurence of rape, which, *so I'm lead to believe is pretty rife over there and contributes to the spread of AIDS. I don't think rapists are interested in using condoms, somehow.

    Correct. And the lack of emergency contraception for the rape victims - both on cost and religious grounds.
  • bainbrge 1 Apr 2005 10:45:55 1,687 posts
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    Lutz wrote:
    sam_spade wrote:
    "Anyway, despite being brought up a catholic I disagree with a lot of the catholic beliefs and think that most relighions (except Buddhism) have done as much harm as good. The condom thing has to be sorted out right now. Hello vatican, Africa, AIDS!"

    I don't see how the Pope can be blamed for people who so heartless that they spread diesease or don't get checked up.

    People have to taken personal responsibility for themselves. You can't point at a Pope who says, don't wear condoms and also don't have sex with anyone else but your wife/husband. If you obey those simple laws, your chances of getting AIDS are pretty slim.
    Exactly. It sounds like people are laying all the blame at the doors of the vatican.

    For example:

    ...


    Actually, I'm not sure *how* true this is, and I can't recall the source, but I'm pretty certain that in Africa AIDS was viewed as a curse, and for a man to clense himself he had to have sex with a female. The younger the better. That was a view held by the "elders" or "witchdoctors" or similar in their society.

    As I say though, I can't recall the source.

    Don't be so disingenuous Lutz. There have been cases of babies being raped due to a belief that this will cure AIDS. There is obviously a lot of superstitious belief in the societies where it has occurred. How is that linked to what sam_spade implied, i.e. that anyone with AIDS caught it through lack of care? This is the same argument used by people who blamed homosexuals for the AIDS epidemic!

    The catholic church have expressly forbidden the use of condoms, even going so far as to say they do not prevent the transmission of HIV. African societies are on the whole patriachal, and often women have little choice over who they have sex with. AIDS is epidemic. Not a very good situation.
  • Whizzo 1 Apr 2005 10:46:15 43,033 posts
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    JPII refused to retire, the Vatican didn't force him to continue. I should imagine a lot of the more senior members of the church would have been quite happy for him to stand down when his health has been failing for quite some time.

    This space left intentionally blank.

  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 10:46:29 48,854 posts
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    Djini wrote:
    Peekaboo is (I suggest) speaking about this in his (albeit rather crude) metaphore. He might have put it with better tact, but he's not exactly wrong here.
    yes, that is what he is talking about. However when it was first read it didn't seem that way to anyone.

    If you need to explaina post, you've written it badly for someone to understand.

    Like a joke told wrong. :)

    I actually agree with what Pekaboo is saying, the Pope is more of a puppet figure and he should have been allowed to live out his remaining days in peace.

    There are considerably better ways of saying that though, than what Pekaboo said.
  • Peekaboo 1 Apr 2005 10:46:44 152 posts
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    "Then don't go and wind people up if you don't understand what you're doing."

    Sigh...........Lutz, taking me the wrong way again, I was NOT attempting to wind people up, what is wrong with me stating how I feel about something and the point I was trying to make is Why does religion, considering the inconsitencies, lack of fact/proof, odd decisions and general harm it can cause when abused, spark such heated responses in people ? Thats what I don't understand and probably never will, for me religion is a non event. I only have to believe in one thing. Me.

    Djini -Thank you !!!!

    Lutz -Thats why I only got a B in English mate, never was my strongest point, hence my I'm an IT tech now.

    Edited by Peekaboo at 09:47:59 01-04-2005
  • ssuellid 1 Apr 2005 10:47:48 19,141 posts
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    bainbrge wrote:
    There have been cases of babies being raped due to a belief that this will cure AIDS.

    For some reason its a popular myth that shagging a virgin is a cure for AIDs. So first it was the young girls that got raped and then the babies to make absolutely sure it was a virgin.
  • bainbrge 1 Apr 2005 10:47:56 1,687 posts
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    ssuellid wrote:
    RubyRed wrote:
    There's also the occurence of rape, which, *so I'm lead to believe is pretty rife over there and contributes to the spread of AIDS. I don't think rapists are interested in using condoms, somehow.

    Correct. And the lack of emergency contraception for the rape victims - both on cost and religious grounds.

    Okay, thats idiotic. What you're saying is, its not important that the use of condoms is forbidden, because there are so many rapists it wouldn't make any difference?
  • ssuellid 1 Apr 2005 10:48:48 19,141 posts
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    ?
  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 10:50:19 48,854 posts
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    bainbrge wrote:
    Don't be so disingenuous Lutz. There have been cases of babies being raped due to a belief that this will cure AIDS. There is obviously a lot of superstitious belief in the societies where it has occurred. How is that linked to what sam_spade implied, i.e. that anyone with AIDS caught it through lack of care? This is the same argument used by people who blamed homosexuals for the AIDS epidemic!
    No, not linked, but it was a point that the vatican can't be blamed for AIDS due to their stance on condoms. It is partially this fault, it is partially societies fault, it is partially a LOT of peoples fault. That's what I was saying, sorry for confusion. :)

    The catholic church have expressly forbidden the use of condoms, even going so far as to say they do not prevent the transmission of HIV. African societies are on the whole patriachal, and often women have little choice over who they have sex with. AIDS is epidemic. Not a very good situation.
    I didn't know that church had said that, and I think it is wrong. That doesn't detract from that fact that it's not JUST their fault. Yes, they have a responisbility to help people where they can. But they're not the only ones who have to do so. Which is what I, and I believe Sam, were saying.

    And I personally think that that responisibilty is largly down to the individual themselves.
  • bainbrge 1 Apr 2005 10:50:53 1,687 posts
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    ssuellid wrote:
    ?

    RubyRed wrote:
    There's also the occurence of rape, which, *so I'm lead to believe is pretty rife over there and contributes to the spread of AIDS. I don't think rapists are interested in using condoms, somehow.
  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 10:51:12 48,854 posts
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    bainbrge wrote:
    ssuellid wrote:
    Correct. And the lack of emergency contraception for the rape victims - both on cost and religious grounds.
    Okay, thats idiotic. What you're saying is, its not important that the use of condoms is forbidden, because there are so many rapists it wouldn't make any difference?
    Er... no. He's saying it's a contributing factor to an epidemic. If rape accounts for 10% of all cases of AIDS then condoms won't make a dent in that 10%.


    Edit: Fixed quotes

    Edited by Lutz at 09:58:40 01-04-2005
  • bainbrge 1 Apr 2005 10:52:05 1,687 posts
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    Lutz wrote:
    And I personally think that that responisibilty is largly down to the individual themselves.

    Agreed. My point is that lots of people aren't allowed that responsibility. Especially women in developing countries.
  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 10:55:17 48,854 posts
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    Peekaboo wrote:
    "Then don't go and wind people up if you don't understand what you're doing."

    Sigh...........Lutz, taking me the wrong way again, I was NOT attempting to wind people up, what is wrong with me stating how I feel about something and the point I was trying to make is Why does religion, considering the inconsitencies, lack of fact/proof, odd decisions and general harm it can cause when abused, spark such heated responses in people ? Thats what I don't understand and probably never will, for me religion is a non event. I only have to believe in one thing. Me.
    The reason why it does cause these feelings is because it CAN.

    Who can really hurt you? For me, very people can hurt me, only those people that I really love, and the things I really love. People REALLY love thier religion, so it can hurt them, either when that religion does something they don't like, or someone attacks it.
    Same with family. Your mum loves you to bits, and vice versa, however you're also one of the people in the world who could REALLY hurt her.

    With power comes responsibilty.

    So what you said was taken as an insult to something that many people hold dear to their hearts.
  • sam_spade 1 Apr 2005 10:55:22 15,745 posts
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    bainbrge wrote:
    Don't be so disingenuous Lutz. There have been cases of babies being raped due to a belief that this will cure AIDS. There is obviously a lot of superstitious belief in the societies where it has occurred. How is that linked to what sam_spade implied, i.e. that anyone with AIDS caught it through lack of care? This is the same argument used by people who blamed homosexuals for the AIDS epidemic!

    The catholic church have expressly forbidden the use of condoms, even going so far as to say they do not prevent the transmission of HIV. African societies are on the whole patriachal, and often women have little choice over who they have sex with. AIDS is epidemic. Not a very good situation.

    My point is that if obey the laws that the Vatican set down. Man and wife have sex, and they will only have sex with each other, then the rules are secure.

    It's when you break the rules that it goes wrong. So for someone to break those rules they are clearly not going to listen to Papal decisions.
  • ssuellid 1 Apr 2005 10:55:59 19,141 posts
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    I think I'm being misquoted here.
  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 10:56:30 48,854 posts
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    bainbrge wrote:
    Agreed. My point is that lots of people aren't allowed that responsibility. Especially women in developing countries.
    Exactly. And if so many women can't have a choice, aren't they being raped? And if they are, would the men care about condoms? So if the church DID say "Condoms are fine, please use them" how many men do you think actually would?
  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 10:57:46 48,854 posts
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    ssuellid wrote:
    I think I'm being misquoted here.
    ?
    ssuellid wrote:
    Correct. And the lack of emergency contraception for the rape victims - both on cost and religious grounds.
  • Peekaboo 1 Apr 2005 10:58:05 152 posts
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    Lutz said -"With power comes responsibilty."

    Hence my dislike of religion.

    In my view that power is abused and as such I find it difficult to fathom that in this day and age people can love religion to the point they do.

    People die everyday, lets have a moments silence for each and every one of them, after all they are just as important as the Pope in my view.
  • Deleted user 1 April 2005 10:59:04
    Now I don't unserstand what you lot are on about...

    We *was* talking about the pope... remember?
  • RubyRed 1 Apr 2005 10:59:15 4,303 posts
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    Edit: Point has already been made. Damn my distractions!

    Edited by RubyRed at 10:00:40 01-04-2005
  • Retroid Moderator 1 Apr 2005 11:02:34 44,503 posts
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    There's the small matter of men in working communities visiting prostitutes and not using condoms. It's fair to say in a fair proportion one or the other will refuse to use a condom at least partially because of catholic edict.

    In a lot of cases there hasn't been a lot of education available, and religion tends to combine with local customs rather than usurp it.

    Besides, most people have at least some doublethink.
  • Lutz 1 Apr 2005 11:03:51 48,854 posts
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    Peekaboo wrote:
    Lutz said -"With power comes responsibilty."

    Hence my dislike of religion.
    You must hate everything. Everything you do has power, and hence responsibilty. It's your choice of what to do with it. Has the Catholic Church abused it's position at times? Hell yes. Does this make it responsible for the consequence of every act that it may be involved in? No, only for it's own.

    In my view that power is abused and as such I find it difficult to fathom that in this day and age people can love religion to the point they do.
    Fair enough. Think of it this way (This is how I think of it anyway)

    Do you have a problem with God? Or his Church?

    Personally I have no problem with God at all. There are some very good things in the Bible to be learnt, and there are a lot of rewarding things that come of this. Many people do amazing things for no reason other than the fact that they can do so, and that they believe this is Gods design. Fair play to them, I love these people.

    The Church though? Different kettle of fish altogether, especially the Church of England, which was created soley so that Henry VIII could get his dick into a different woman.

    I think that the Church, as a group, has some very bad sides, and can do a lot of harm. However the individual beliefs of the person? That is almost certainly good.

    Oddly I feel the same way about Americans. On their own, nice people. As a country? G.W.Bush.

    People die everyday, lets have a moments silence for each and every one of them, after all they are just as important as the Pope in my view.
    100% correct, they are. However not all are focus points for what you believe in... ;)
  • Retroid Moderator 1 Apr 2005 11:03:59 44,503 posts
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    Djini wrote:
    We *was* talking about the pope... remember?
    See my post at the top of page 4. That's all I'm saying on the matter.
  • ssuellid 1 Apr 2005 11:04:30 19,141 posts
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    What I said was that the rape victims were suffering as they do not get emergency contraception after rape - which could also help to prevent AIDs and pregnancy. A) because the hospitals cannot afford it and B) because of the hospitals religious stance on contraception.

    The catholic church has a strong influence in Africa. They should use it for good.
  • Peekaboo 1 Apr 2005 11:04:48 152 posts
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    Retroid -In some cases the church prevents the educationary bodies from dispensing that education. is quite scary to think they'd rather leave people uneducated and in the dark as opposed to having them enlightened so to speak.
  • bainbrge 1 Apr 2005 11:05:31 1,687 posts
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    Lutz wrote:
    bainbrge wrote:
    Agreed. My point is that lots of people aren't allowed that responsibility. Especially women in developing countries.
    Exactly. And if so many women can't have a choice, aren't they being raped? And if they are, would the men care about condoms? So if the church DID say "Condoms are fine, please use them" how many men do you think actually would?

    Oh dear. There are two separate issues:

    1. The Vatican forbids the use of condoms, which contributes towards the spread of AIDS.

    2. Many women have little choice over who they have sex with.

    You are using number 2 to justify number 1.

    The Church though? Different kettle of fish altogether, especially the Church of England, which was created soley so that Henry VIII could get his dick into a different woman.

    Thats a bit misleading. There was a general feeling of anti-catholicism across much of Northern Europe at the time. Protestantism wasn't solely the creation of Henry VIII.



    Edited by bainbrge at 10:10:15 01-04-2005
  • bainbrge 1 Apr 2005 11:07:52 1,687 posts
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    ssuellid wrote:
    What I said was that the rape victims were suffering as they do not get emergency contraception after rape - which could also help to prevent AIDs and pregnancy. A) because the hospitals cannot afford it and B) because of the hospitals religious stance on contraception.

    The catholic church has a strong influence in Africa. They should use it for good.

    sorry for the misquote!
  • Clive_Dunn 1 Apr 2005 11:07:52 4,775 posts
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    But surely the key point is that this Pope could have helped control the spread of AIDS but neglected to do so because of doctrine. Blaming the spread on a number of factors is all well and good however the failure to act in any way to help is a damning indictment of the current papacy and its outdated principles.
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