Ukraine

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  • Tom_Servo 20 Feb 2014 11:35:31 18,082 posts
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    I think it's time for a dedicated thread.

    So, things seem to be getting worse despite the truce agreed to stop the violence over recent days.

    At least 10 people have died in Kiev today alone, including from gunshot wounds.

    What's the end game now? The government resigning? Civil war? The country splitting in two? We seem to be past the point of talking now that a truce has done literally nothing.

    The Polish foreign minister is occasionally posting pictures.

    Here's Vice's news editor on the scene.

    Edited by Tom_Servo at 11:55:06 20-02-2014
  • Zomoniac 20 Feb 2014 11:48:18 7,979 posts
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    Independence Square, before and after.

  • Load_2.0 20 Feb 2014 11:51:11 19,670 posts
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    Civil war, if the country splits in two it will be an interesting demographic.

    Under 40? Pro Euro.

    Over 40? Pro Ruski.
  • BillMurray 20 Feb 2014 11:52:13 7,905 posts
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    Warhammer 40k?
  • BillMurray 20 Feb 2014 11:54:01 7,905 posts
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    Also, a month old but obviously still relevant.



    Revolution in Kiev(I think someone posted this on another thread but it's definitely worth a repost)

    More photos

    Click
    Click



    Edited by BillMurray at 11:58:56 20-02-2014
  • Tom_Servo 20 Feb 2014 11:59:03 18,082 posts
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    Video of police apparently using live ammo
  • mcmonkeyplc 20 Feb 2014 12:00:08 39,567 posts
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    They fly the EU flag with more pride than we ever have.

    Maybe we should live up to that image?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • RedSparrows 20 Feb 2014 12:06:20 24,226 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Civil war, if the country splits in two it will be an interesting demographic.

    Under 40? Pro Euro.

    Over 40? Pro Ruski.
    I don't know about demographics, but historically the divide has been East/West. The regions of Galicia, Lviv and Volyn (Volhynia) have perpetually been a thorn in Russia's side, for instance.
  • RedSparrows 20 Feb 2014 12:07:20 24,226 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    They fly the EU flag with more pride than we ever have.

    Maybe we should live up to that image?
    People might be more pro-EU if the alternative was Russian dominance, as per the past 90 years or so.
  • Tom_Servo 20 Feb 2014 12:09:18 18,082 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Civil war, if the country splits in two it will be an interesting demographic.

    Under 40? Pro Euro.

    Over 40? Pro Ruski.
    I don't know about demographics, but historically the divide has been East/West. The regions of Galicia, Lviv and Volyn (Volhynia) have perpetually been a thorn in Russia's side, for instance.
    Apparently there are protests in the east of the country as well, although I doubt they're anything like what we're seeing in Kiev.

    It does seem to be a generational thing from what I can tell, like Load says.
  • Kichijoten 20 Feb 2014 12:54:39 2,251 posts
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    Watch BBC news the Russia today. It is two different versions of same event.
    On BBC it slates the abusive police and Russia today it shows police burning to death and has interviews with ex American chief police officers saying the police are being soft and that in America they would be using lethal force.
    The constant hypocritical comments from western governments annoy me as well.
    Like Syria there are millons (apparently 54%) who support the government, therefore stay out of their internal issues and dont constantly take the side of the opposition. Watching BBC footage now and I can't see many demonstrators, I can only see thugs throwing petrol bombs.
  • beastmaster 20 Feb 2014 13:17:15 11,985 posts
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    It's a very tricky situation. We've got a lot of family over there and it doesn't sound good at all.

    Ukraine's main source of income is from Russia. It is as the saying goes "Russia's break-basket". a deal with the EU wouldn't have been very good for the Ukraine.

    What's really pissed off the anti-Ruskis though a LOT more than not signing up with the EU is that schools in the pro-Ruski areas are no longer teaching the Ukrainian language but Russian instead.

    That has pissed them off no end and I think that's what the original protest was about or at least more so than any economic deal. The police came in and got excessively violent and it's now all kicked off big style.

    The Resident Evil films. I'm one of the reasons they keep making them.

  • mcmonkeyplc 20 Feb 2014 13:21:34 39,567 posts
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    beastmaster wrote:
    It's a very tricky situation. We've got a lot of family over there and it doesn't sound good at all.

    Ukraine's main source of income is from Russia. It is as the saying goes "Russia's break-basket". a deal with the EU wouldn't have been very good for the Ukraine.

    Why?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • FWB 20 Feb 2014 13:22:09 45,580 posts
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    Western Ukraine has always had ties to Central Europe. Belonged to Poland at some point. My family comes from there. Anti communists, fought them and eventually had to flee to what is today Poland.

    My totally unbiased view is that the East is generally full of nationalistic morons.

    Edited by FWB at 13:25:54 20-02-2014
  • Load_2.0 20 Feb 2014 13:22:43 19,670 posts
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    US commentary from the Whitehouse was damaging and confused in Syria. I imagine it will be the same again here.

    It is an internal issue that needs to be resolved internally without the UK or the US having any input.
  • FWB 20 Feb 2014 13:23:54 45,580 posts
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    It's not an internal issue tho.
  • Deleted user 20 February 2014 13:24:01
    It's a really horrible situation. It's pretty clear a lot of the people aren't happy though and the government should vreally be doimg more to calm them down. If these people don't want ties with Russia, then they should be heard.
  • RedSparrows 20 Feb 2014 13:24:18 24,226 posts
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    Kichijoten wrote:
    Watch BBC news the Russia today. It is two different versions of same event.
    On BBC it slates the abusive police and Russia today it shows police burning to death and has interviews with ex American chief police officers saying the police are being soft and that in America they would be using lethal force.
    The constant hypocritical comments from western governments annoy me as well.
    Like Syria there are millons (apparently 54%) who support the government, therefore stay out of their internal issues and dont constantly take the side of the opposition. Watching BBC footage now and I can't see many demonstrators, I can only see thugs throwing petrol bombs.
    Yes, the evil BBC and that impartial Russia Today.
  • BillMurray 20 Feb 2014 13:28:17 7,905 posts
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    Kichijoten wrote:
    Watch BBC news the Russia today. It is two different versions of same event.
    On BBC it slates the abusive police and Russia today it shows police burning to death and has interviews with ex American chief police officers saying the police are being soft and that in America they would be using lethal force.
    The constant hypocritical comments from western governments annoy me as well.
    Like Syria there are millons (apparently 54%) who support the government, therefore stay out of their internal issues and dont constantly take the side of the opposition. Watching BBC footage now and I can't see many demonstrators, I can only see thugs throwing petrol bombs.
    Lol. You know RT is state owned, right?

    Edited by BillMurray at 13:29:18 20-02-2014
  • mcmonkeyplc 20 Feb 2014 13:29:51 39,567 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    US commentary from the Whitehouse was damaging and confused in Syria. I imagine it will be the same again here.

    It is an internal issue that needs to be resolved internally without the EU or the US having any input.
    Fixed and it's not just internal.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • beastmaster 20 Feb 2014 13:35:00 11,985 posts
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    From what I can gather there's two reasons.

    1. The EU are not really after Ukraine's produce as such. So it wouldn't have done much for the agriculture, which is pretty much what Ukraine is about.

    2. Russia also have Ukraine by the balls in many ways. It's Ukraine's main provider of gas for one thing. There were a few protests about the Russian navy presence in Sevastopol and the supply ended up having a few 'problems'

    Ukraine were on the brink of bankruptcy and Russia stepped in to help. They are very closely tied together.

    An article from 2010 below which goes through the economic relationship in a bit of detail.

    http://www.diploweb.com/Russia-s-Black-Sea-fleet-in.html

    The Resident Evil films. I'm one of the reasons they keep making them.

  • Deleted user 20 February 2014 13:36:37
    RT has been hilariously bad to watch. Blatantly one sided lol.
  • Deleted user 20 February 2014 13:44:58
    To be honest, with the amount of civil unrest around the world, it surprising that US/Russian bickering hasn't stepped up a few notches, especially with syrian problems as well. It looks like North Korea is back on the agenda too with calls for KJU to be tried on humanitarian issues.

    I guess thankfully, the stomach isn't there for such posturing. But it got the air of history text book what caused said war feeling about it all.

    Edited by joelstinton at 13:45:29 20-02-2014
  • mcmonkeyplc 20 Feb 2014 13:47:56 39,567 posts
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    beastmaster wrote:
    From what I can gather there's two reasons.

    1. The EU are not really after Ukraine's produce as such. So it wouldn't have done much for the agriculture, which is pretty much what Ukraine is about.

    2. Russia also have Ukraine by the balls in many ways. It's Ukraine's main provider of gas for one thing. There were a few protests about the Russian navy presence in Sevastopol and the supply ended up having a few 'problems'

    Ukraine were on the brink of bankruptcy and Russia stepped in to help. They are very closely tied together.

    An article from 2010 below which goes through the economic relationship in a bit of detail.

    http://www.diploweb.com/Russia-s-Black-Sea-fleet-in.html
    I wonder why Ukraine is on the brink of bankruptcy? Couldn't possibly have anything to do with Russia could it?

    The country is in the middle of an idealogical war between the EU and Russia.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Whizzo 20 Feb 2014 14:03:52 43,352 posts
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    IRT wrote:
    RT has been hilariously bad to watch. Blatantly one sided lol.
    Pravda TV was far too obvious a name for it so they called it Russia Today.

    This space left intentionally blank.

  • HelloNo 20 Feb 2014 14:14:48 1,272 posts
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    beastmaster wrote:
    It's a very tricky situation. We've got a lot of family over there and it doesn't sound good at all.

    Ukraine's main source of income is from Russia. It is as the saying goes "Russia's break-basket". a deal with the EU wouldn't have been very good for the Ukraine.

    What's really pissed off the anti-Ruskis though a LOT more than not signing up with the EU is that schools in the pro-Ruski areas are no longer teaching the Ukrainian language but Russian instead.

    That has pissed them off no end and I think that's what the original protest was about or at least more so than any economic deal. The police came in and got excessively violent and it's now all kicked off big style.
    What's communication with your family like?

    Those photo's are something. Gone are the days of grainy black-and-white photos processed by the government.
  • beastmaster 20 Feb 2014 14:33:34 11,985 posts
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    Family are mainly in Lviv and communication is okay. Mum's not spoken to them for a few days.

    My dad was from the Ukraine and my mum's of Ukrainian descent but born in former Yugoslavia. As you can imagine, she's had her fill of civil unrest.

    The Resident Evil films. I'm one of the reasons they keep making them.

  • Kichijoten 20 Feb 2014 14:40:22 2,251 posts
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    I'm not saying rt is fair and balance but don't be fools and think for a second that BBC are reporting the facts other than from a pro west stance.
  • Deleted user 20 February 2014 14:49:00
    Kichijoten wrote:
    I'm not saying rt is fair and balance but don't be fools and think for a second that BBC are reporting the facts other than from a pro west stance.
    Oh, I don't for one minute. That report (http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html) is the best reporting I've seen on this whole thing.
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