What would be your solution for bringing down the UK's debt? Page 8

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  • BonzoBanana 11 Oct 2013 14:00:25 88 posts
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    faux_carnation wrote:
    BonzoBanana wrote:
    http://moneyweek.com/endofbritain/
    That link is hilarious.
    But the web page it goes to certainly isn't. Even if they have over-stated the result their figures are real figures.
  • elstoof 11 Oct 2013 14:08:06 7,396 posts
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    It's like the internet version of going to Speakers Corner and listening to the man with the megaphone.
  • jamievilla 11 Oct 2013 14:14:50 535 posts
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    faux_carnation wrote:
    BonzoBanana wrote:
    http://moneyweek.com/endofbritain/
    That link is hilarious.
    Even more hilarious is that the poster doesn't recognise that as a Direct Mail letter written by a copywriter for a particular purpose. They're not stating facts, it's Marketing.
  • RedSparrows 11 Oct 2013 15:10:26 22,764 posts
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    It's terribly written, saying the same thing over and over and over again.
  • jamievilla 11 Oct 2013 15:36:11 535 posts
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    @RedSparrows welcome to direct mail! Surprisingly it has been proven to work, as much as I hate the style of writing - it seems to make people act.

    I love the use of graphs without any context to what they are referring to. "Look - government spending has exploded over the last 30 years look at this massive spike in this graph (we've created), aren't you scared? Well aren't you??? Buy our magazine and be saved!"
  • mcmonkeyplc 11 Oct 2013 16:07:40 39,458 posts
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    How will this magazine save us?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • elstoof 11 Oct 2013 16:11:46 7,396 posts
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    You can fold it into a hat that blocks all the government mind control ray beams.
  • mcmonkeyplc 11 Oct 2013 16:15:08 39,458 posts
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    Wow that is one "special" link

    Here's my response:




    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 16:16:05 11-10-2013

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Chopsen 11 Oct 2013 16:16:58 16,019 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Wow that is one "special" link

    Here's my response:


    That world wars are associated with subsequent high levels of national debt?

    Edited by Chopsen at 16:17:11 11-10-2013
  • mcmonkeyplc 11 Oct 2013 16:20:57 39,458 posts
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    No, look at the percentage of debt now and compare it to the retarded numbers that "article" claims.

    "500% of national GDP"

    Errm it's closer to 50%.

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 16:22:24 11-10-2013

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • mcmonkeyplc 11 Oct 2013 16:25:28 39,458 posts
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    It's a good job I'm at work. I'd be fucking pissed off I wasted my time reading that. :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • jamievilla 11 Oct 2013 16:57:27 535 posts
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    Haha indeed. I actually know the guy who writes that stuff as well.

    He's a bellend.
  • mcmonkeyplc 11 Oct 2013 17:00:49 39,458 posts
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    Punch him in the face for me.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 11 Oct 2013 17:06:06 44,278 posts
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    Megapost, be warned.

    MoneyWeek is now the UK's best-selling financial magazine, and serves tens of thousands of subscribers in more than 60 countries
    And the Daily Mail is the UK's best selling newspaper. What an accolade. Also both of you use one sentence paragraphs, sprinkle their text with bold and underlined words for emphasis, and use a really big font.

    To our knowledge, no other publication can match our record of correctly anticipating and predicting the financial crisis.
    To my knowledge, given your daily spam emails full of advice that land in my inbox, your editorial staff are a bunch of monkeys with a dartboard.

    This looming crisis is related to the financial crisis of 2008... but it will be infinitely more dangerous. As we'll explain, there is an unsolvable problem at the heart of our financial system. One that dates back over a hundred years.
    'Infinitely more dangerous'. Horrible tautology. Even an editorial staff of monkeys should have better standards than to allow that phrase through.

    This is the most serious warning we've ever made
    I have at least a dozen Moneyweek emails in my work inbox with that title. Also I note we're 22 paragraphs in and you haven't said the first thing about what your actual topic is.

    You can decide for yourself if we're full of hot air
    And this is after a further 16 paragraphs which also fail to even slightly some to the point. Gibbons was more concise that this, for fuck sake.

    We are going to talk you through exactly what's happening and what you can do as well. We can't promise you'll emerge from this potential crisis completely unharmed – but we sincerely believe you'll be a lot better off than people who don't follow the simple steps outlined in this letter.
    And another 8 paragraphs but thank Christ, FINALLY.

    But we're getting ahead of ourselves a bit.
    /table head slam

    Let's start at the beginning.
    I did. I FUCKING DID. And now I'm on paragraph 47 of this puffed-up weaselly soothsaying bullshit and I haven't learned anything aside from the fact you're all monkeys and I'm 6 minutes older and 1,000 years more pissed off than when I started.

    But enough sniping. Let's get to it. You're saying we had £700bn of debt in 2010 and will have £1.4bn of debt in 2015. In fact, you summarise it rather handily in one of your bullet point bitesize easily digested parapgraphs:

    The fact is, when you look at our finances as a whole, the Coalition isn't cutting anything. State spending is going up… our national debt is going up… and our interest payments are going up.
    Yep. This is true. I hope you'll come to the point where you explain why 'This inescapable problem has only ever had one outcome: financial collapse', or 'In all recorded history, no country has ever recovered from the financial position we find ourselves in today', or why this is an 'unsolveable' problem rather than a structural decision. Also, I assume when I say 'Keynes' all I'll get in response from you is a vague memory of that place near Stevenage you went on Dave's stag do and ended up getting an STD off a stripper.

    By the next general election in 2015, our national debt is estimated to stand at almost £1.4 trillion, as this chart shows:
    Predicted by who, exactly. Because what 'this chart shows' is that you've taken the steepest point of the debt curve, at exactly the point of the cycle where the government is borrowing to support people, bail out banks and services, and increase spending to cover rising unemployment etc, and drawn a straight fucking line from there. Well, I can do something similar: I'm going to take this word from your opinion piece:

    mess
    And extrapolate than the rest of your article will be this:

    mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess HUGE GIANT MONKEY COCKS AND A DARTBOARD mess.
    But I won't sink to your level. So let's see where you go from this alarmost misunderstanding of the situation:

    Our total debts stand at more than FIVE TIMES what our entire economy is worth.
    No they aren't. Unless your saying GDP is a figure in totality (which it isn't), rather than an annual figure (which it is). Also what are you lumping into 'total' there, because it seems to be everything AND the kitchen sink. But of course you're not going to actually tell us, are you?

    Proportionally, that's more debt than Italy… Portugal… Spain… and almost twice as much debt as Greece. Those are four countries already in the throes of financial crisis. We're the odd one out because we haven't collapsed – yet. But things can't stay that way for long.
    Proportionally is a funny word here, isn't it? We're the largest of all those economies, so why do we need to mention 'proportionally' at all? It should be 'actually'. But of course it isn't, is it? I actually think you got that wrong - we have 'proportionally' twice as much debt as Greece? I call horsehit on the whole claim.

    And of course this ignores trend, maturity, interest costs, ratings, productivity, political strategy, structual liquidity and reserves. But OK.

    You see, the only countries that have more debt than us are Japan, where the economy has stagnated for 20 years and the stock market has crashed by 75%... and Ireland, where the housing market has crashed 50%, and the government has been forced to accept a bailout.
    Smashing strawman. THE ONLY COUNTRIES CLOSER TO THE ALTANTIC THAN US ARE PORTUGAL AND SPAIN AND ICELAND, AND LOOK HOW FUCKED THEY ARE, WE MUST BE NEXT, IT MUST BE PROXIMITY TO THE ALTANTIC THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Twatmonkeys.

    Source: Haver Analytics; Bank for International Settlements; national central banks; McKinsey Global Institute
    Why do they need those sources? Two are analyst estimates can houses I've never heard of (although hand on heart they could be kosher and just misrepresented here. One is a very odd choice, why not the ECB, the BoE, the IMF, why a comparatively small and unimportant clearing house. And 'national central banks'. I assume you mean the ones for the countries in your graph, but again you don't actually say.

    And the worst part is, even THAT isn't the full story…

    Because when you add in all of Britain's "unfunded obligations" – promises the Government has made on things like public sector pensions – our debts swell to 900% of our economy.
    Yep. Absolutely. Pensions are unsustainable. However this is not why. Pensions are unsustainable because our workforce isn't ageing but our population is, and those claiming are forming a larger and larger portion of the populace. It isn't a problem because you take a snapshot and think it's disastrous now, it's a problem because of the inexorable trend towards bankruptcy.

    A country can either pay back its debts or it can't.
    And a man in a forest can either see the sun or he can't. Stunning insight, monkeyfucks.

    And it is very clear to us that Britain can't.
    That debt isn't due NOW cretins. If we had topay it all back this instant you might have a point. But if that was the case there might be something 'the Telegraph or Sky News' felt was worth mentioning, rather than this shambolic, deceptive and dissembling rabble rousing garbage.

    Oh God, I was going to continue but they've just stuck up a pic of David Lloyd George and referred to the Welfare State as 'A Dangerous Experiment Gone Wrong' so I don't think I can. Sorry for the rant.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • mcmonkeyplc 11 Oct 2013 17:25:36 39,458 posts
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    @LeoliansBro Why the hell did you read past the insane over exaggeration of the national debt chart?

    You must've been extremely bored at work :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 11 Oct 2013 17:28:00 44,278 posts
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    I've just got my first iphone, a 5C, and it's a huge motherfucker of a letdown. I needed to vent.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • BonzoBanana 11 Oct 2013 19:00:16 88 posts
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    It doesn't take much work to see figures that support those of moneyweek.

    This may go back to 2011 but it shows similar figures before 2012 and 13 are added.

    http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/true-level-of-uk-government-debt-exceeds-%C2%A35-trillion

    There seems a lot of denial here.

    Clearly the point is the sanitised government debt figure of 1-1.4 trillion is bad enough but a true figure that factors in all debt and liablilities is going to be much higher. This is hardly surprising.

    As ever people believe what they want to believe, we wouldn't have religion if that wasn't true.

    I certainly don't want to believe this so if anyone has some geniune factual comments about why this level of debt isn't so bad I'm happy to read it. I don't really think the debt level can be argued against but again it would be great if someone could prove the debt level was realistically much lower due to some overlooked factors.
  • jamievilla 11 Oct 2013 19:15:51 535 posts
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    @LeoliansBro that was ace. I don't always agree with your posts but that was an epic rant.

    Especially this bit:

    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Megapost, be warned.

    Well, I can do something similar: I'm going to take this word from your opinion piece:

    mess
    And extrapolate than the rest of your article will be this:

    mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess mess HUGE GIANT MONKEY COCKS AND A DARTBOARD mess.
    Enjoy the new phone :champo2:

    Edited by jamievilla at 19:18:37 11-10-2013
  • LeoliansBro 11 Oct 2013 19:17:42 44,278 posts
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    Debt isn't a problem, managing the interest payments is. A far more useful comparison is to compare debt servicing costs with GDP, whereas what you're doing Mr. Banana is comparing your monthly wage income with the amount left on your mortgage.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 11 Oct 2013 19:48:48 22,764 posts
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    BOOM! FATALITY!
  • Deleted user 12 October 2013 20:39:39
    By all means help the unemployed, with help in finding them work etc but put a stop to giving them money. Food vouchers, stuff like that, but not cash. That would soon bring down the levels.
  • spamdangled 12 Oct 2013 20:45:29 27,355 posts
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    @blacksea

    How would they pay their bills then?

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • Ginger 12 Oct 2013 22:33:45 6,843 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    @blacksea

    How would they pay their bills then?
    Sell the food vouchers on eBay for cash.

    London open taekwondo champion

  • RedSparrows 12 Oct 2013 23:25:21 22,764 posts
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    Vouchers: the best way to make the unemployed feel even more powerless, patronised and pissed upon.
  • elstoof 12 Oct 2013 23:28:16 7,396 posts
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    The annual Christmas gift from your least favourite aunt: vouchers.
  • spamdangled 12 Oct 2013 23:35:50 27,355 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    Vouchers: the best way to make the unemployed feel even more powerless, patronised and pissed upon.
    Precisely.

    Not to mention it's unworkable.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • Ginger 13 Oct 2013 10:18:02 6,843 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    Vouchers: the best way to make the unemployed feel even more powerless, patronised and pissed upon.
    Might that not be an incentive to look for work perhaps?

    London open taekwondo champion

  • elstoof 13 Oct 2013 10:25:31 7,396 posts
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    What if the vouchers had little stickers on them, gold stars and motivational messages that kind of thing.
  • RichieTenenbaum 13 Oct 2013 10:45:37 2,211 posts
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    Ginger wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:
    Vouchers: the best way to make the unemployed feel even more powerless, patronised and pissed upon.
    Might that not be an incentive to look for work perhaps?
    Except the people who don't want a job are a tiny percentage. The rest can't find one because there's hardly any jobs.
  • LeoliansBro 13 Oct 2013 11:45:23 44,278 posts
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    Going to be a pariah for saying this, but part of the reason there are so few jobs is because of the level the minimum wage is set at.

    Not saying for a second that the minimum wage is wrongly set, just pointing out this is why the scheme to find jobs for the long term unemployed if they wish to continue to receive the JSA can work.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

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