Egyptian military destroying Egyptian democracy or saving it? Page 3

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  • sirtacos 4 Jul 2013 13:03:20 7,267 posts
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    Would a combination of Swiss-style direct democracy with a parliament/House composed of 'experts' (each knowledgeable in a particular field) be a workable system? One which would potentially do away with career politicians (i.e. talking heads a la Ed Milliband) as much as possible?

    I don't know of any existing models that resemble this. I didn't give it much thought*, so it might be utterly retarded and unworkable.

    *(Not implying that if I did give it serious thought I would magically solve the problems of representative democracy or anything. This is an issue that's been mulled over since the dawn of mankind. There are plenty of alternative systems that work - such as pseudo-anarchist arrangements for smaller communities, but when it comes to nation-states the issue is hugely complex and not likely to give rise to anything remotely utopian.)

    Edited by sirtacos at 13:08:30 04-07-2013
  • Chopsen 4 Jul 2013 13:04:00 15,702 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    @Chopsen What surprises me is that while what you say has truth to it, it would appear that a lot of the education that people such as Osborne, Gove and Hunt have gone through doesn't seem to cover basic theories of their sectors which even I understand. Of course, it's more complicated than simple theories but take austerity as an example, it has been proven that it never works as a fiscal solution, yet they're persisting with it.

    Gove has never worked in a school (afaik), Hunt doesn't work as a medical professional. The idea that people who do work in those sectors would not be able to make rational and correct decisions seems disingenuous. I do wonder why more people from these areas don't end up in government.

    Of course, as you say, we get what we deserve and the days of politics on experience and principle (and expertise) seems to only really apply to Farage and the EDL!
    (and @MikeP)

    Oh aye. Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that the current government are any more qualified to run the things that they're supposed to be running. Rather they're more qualified at being *politicans*, a job where you seem to have the bizarre combination of having ultimate responsibility for running stuff that you're unqualified to run, and have to defend that position under constant public scrutiny. Now that is undeniably quite a skill. Being a smartly weasly git that can doge questions and keep smiling and still have people believe in you? That's quite a skill!

    Because of our (unrealistic) expectations of politicians to give us the moon on a stick with no experience of attaching celestial bodies to pieces of wood, we've selected a population of arseholes.

    I think the Lords are a different kettle of fish, because some of them actually know what they're talking about.
  • Mr_Sleep 4 Jul 2013 13:15:05 16,838 posts
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    @Chopsen I do agree with that, I always thought the mayoral elections were a good synthesis of what is wrong with the public's voting policy, I can understand people not voting for red Ken but Paddick was a perfectly reasonable candidate with a grounding in public order and law having been a chief constable (iirc) yet a large proportion voted for lolBoris due to his amusing turns on HIGNFY.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • ChronoTravis 4 Jul 2013 23:46:02 145 posts
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    It's a military coup, no doubt about it. The military forcefully removed a democratically elected leader from power. Now, I will say that Morsi was a bit of a creep, with his anti-Jewish hate speeches and what not, but there still has to be a respect for the office and the democratic process. There is some good that could come out of this however, if they stem the Muslim Brotherhood's attempts to turn the country into a theocracy, and adopt a secular constitution.
  • DrStrangelove 5 Jul 2013 01:47:52 3,365 posts
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    @sirtacos

    I'm not actually replaying to your post here, but your mentioning of the Swiss direct democracy reminded me of something else. Many think, the more direct it gets, the better. But Swiss democracy does things like forbidding minarets. I'm certainly no friend of Islam, but that is just xenophobic mob rule, and I think "direct democracy" supports mob rule. It's another example of a democratic society oppressing a minority. Because majority rule in principle allows (or even encourages?) oppression of minorities.

    There may be a lot right about that model, but there's also a great lot wrong with it. With time, I learned that democraticism is an ideology like socialism or anything else that rarely lives up to the idea in reality.
  • NBZ 5 Jul 2013 02:24:38 2,351 posts
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    Its a Coup in Egypt.

    back In November, the people were tired of the judiciary passing judgments reversing everything that was being done to change the country.

    Morsi tried to get around the judiciary by reform, but the judiciary ruled that illegal.

    Then when he passed a decree giving him power over them, the opposition came out in full opposition mode refusing to even discuss anything with the president.

    Its been a seesaw of escalation since where the opposition saw that it had a better hand to not seek reconciliation.

    The people have been played - their economic situation wouldn't have been much better under another regime, and the lack of law and order was because the police was sulking abouit losing its powers from a full on security state.

    They have only become visible now that the tide turned against Morsi.

    This military is the same one that drove armoured vehicles through crowds of coptic christians when they were protesting for rights.

    Morsi made his mistakes but it was more that he was handed a apoisoned chalice with his electoral victory last year.
  • Armoured_Bear 5 Jul 2013 07:01:46 10,251 posts
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    Egypt’s Declaration of Independence: Not So Different From Ours

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  • Armoured_Bear 5 Jul 2013 07:06:58 10,251 posts
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    Letter to CNN



    "I'm Egyptian... I live in New York. I'm watching your LIVE coverage of my country, and all I can say is S.H.A.M.E. on you for being so biased and ignorant, and for trying by your subjective, lopsided coverage to brainwash your viewers and distort facts.

    First of all, what happened in Egypt earlier is by no means a military coup as you call it. The military's intervention was very welcome and came only as a response of what the masses desired.

    And Morsi was NOT a democratically elected president: there was massive rigging... many poors' votes were purchased with little money or in-kind trivialities... and mosque leaders poisoned many people's decisions by convincing them that whoever wouldn't vote for Morsi will end up in hell! Now how democratic is this, taking advantage of people's poverty and ignorance???

    I personally had a short chat with Morsi last September when he came to the UN General Assembly, and I instantly felt embarrassed to be Egyptian and thus be associated with such a retard.

    Rather than focusing on the tiny unknown square where the minuscule Morsi support base is gathered, how about taking your cameras to the famous Tahrir Square or to any other Egyptian neighborhood?

    I'm listening to Wolf Blitzer as we speak and am outraged by him and by CNN for spreading such blatant lies and distorting the crystal clear truth.

    The overwhelming majority of Egyptians today are in a state of euphoria because a dictator was ousted: a dictator who in one year has (along with his gang) caused the country indelible damage and has been trying systematically to destroy its economy, chase away tourists, assign former terrorists to leadership positions, discriminate against women and minorities, arrest journalists, justify harassment against us women, undermine the country's culture and art (e.g. attempting to ban ballet for being a "nude art"), instill sectarian sedition between its people, cause a massive brain-drain... an exodus of skills out of the country, deprive Egyptians of the bare essentials of a decent live, including water, electricity and fuel, etc. etc.

    How about taking a peek at social media to see how delighted everyone is and how people are congratulating each other for the end of a dark era?

    If there's no mention of all this, then that ill-intentioned Blitzer and the rest of his crowd should go find themselves another job and should be branded liars! Shame on you all indeed!"

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  • ChronoTravis 5 Jul 2013 14:35:10 145 posts
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    Bassem Yussuf tweeted out that before the ousting, the Muslim Brotherhood leadership was sending out letters giving liberal media organizations a an ultimatum to shut down. It looks like a secular constitution and government are the only way out of this problem.
  • LetsGo 5 Jul 2013 14:47:59 5,161 posts
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    I really don't get it.

    - Guy wins election
    - Things don't happen overnight (hey, this is politics, it takes time to turn a country around right?)
    - Protests on street
    - Army oust the government which was elected by the people of Egypt
    - Army starts killing supporters who voted for the government

    Its crazy, I'll admit I have 0 knowledge of the situation.
  • sirtacos 5 Jul 2013 15:15:37 7,267 posts
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    If by 'turn a country around' you mean turn it into a theocracy, then Morsi was actually making pretty good progress.

    But he did do it democratically (although some would dispute the legitimacy of that, just like many dispute Putin's legitimacy as Russia's new Tzar), so there's that.

    (Even though, like Putin, he was using the democratic apparatus to steer the state back towards authoritarianism.)

    Edited by sirtacos at 15:18:31 05-07-2013
  • ChronoTravis 5 Jul 2013 16:23:17 145 posts
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    Morsi was democratically elected, but the election was hastily organized after the fall of the previous regime. The Muslim Brotherhood was the largest organization at that point, in terms of power and money, and they were able to mobilize quickly, and take advantage of the high emotions in the public, to create a knee-jerk reaction in favor of their party.

    The Muslim Brotherhood then proceeded to disenfranchise women and religious minorities, and openly discriminate against them, and tried to turn the country into a theocracy. They were also cracking down on the press and media, and opposition figures. Once the population realized the true nature and intentions of Morsi and his party, they had already put in him into power. Plus, there were accusations of poll rigging and intimidation.

    I still believe that he should have been voted out of power via legitimate means, but at least this is an opportunity to pursue a more progressive liberal democratic agenda, with a clear separation of religion and state.
  • Errol 5 Jul 2013 17:28:28 12,454 posts
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    32 million people voted for Morsi.

    Egypt is headed for civil war if they don't sort something out quickly.

    If fresh elections are held, Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood will have to be allowed to stand again. It's a democracy after all, right?

    Edited by Errol at 17:28:41 05-07-2013
  • Load_2.0 5 Jul 2013 18:02:31 18,861 posts
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    They need a new name, Muslim Brotherhood has an air of the sinister about it.

    MusBroHood United.

    New MBH.

    Muslim OK Party.
  • Mr_Sleep 5 Jul 2013 18:09:38 16,838 posts
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    Muslim Defence League?

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Fab4 5 Jul 2013 19:37:05 5,975 posts
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    Its all kicking off...live on Aljazeera
  • richardiox 5 Jul 2013 20:22:51 5,535 posts
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    Shit do I watch this or the tennis?
  • DrStrangelove 6 Jul 2013 22:17:21 3,365 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    They need a new name, Muslim Brotherhood has an air of the sinister about it.
    Not only the name. What struck me when seeing anti-Morsi and pro-Morsi protesters before the coup, it struck me that the pro-Morsis were largely armed with sticks and clubs, while I didn't see any of that at the antis.

    That may be selective perception, on my side or on the reporters', but it all didn't only look, but also feel like that.
  • DrStrangelove 6 Jul 2013 22:17:53 3,365 posts
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    @richardiox

    I never understood why anyone would watch tennis. I find even watching cricket more exciting.
  • NBZ 6 Jul 2013 22:32:46 2,351 posts
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    @DrStrangelove - the footage I watched showed it as the opposite, so I presume it is perception or selective reporting.

    Either way, ElBaradei has been appointed as Prime Minister. He spectacularly failed in the presidential elections and for the past few months had been positioning himself for power while refusing to enter into dialogue to diffuse some of the tension in the country.

    So far his way has paid off.
  • Khanivor 6 Jul 2013 22:55:55 40,359 posts
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    Well with his past he should at least be able to do something about the power outages.
  • FWB 6 Jul 2013 23:03:26 43,802 posts
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    Should put Tony Blair in power.
  • DrStrangelove 6 Jul 2013 23:05:12 3,365 posts
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    NBZ wrote:
    @DrStrangelove - the footage I watched showed it as the opposite, so I presume it is perception or selective reporting.
    I'm fairly confident the footage I saw was like I described it, but that's leading to another topic... the might of media that even "neutrally" report, but select what to show just like the despised tabloids, and that we can't ever be halfway sure about what we're watching.

    I mean, I'm a Guardian reader, and much I read there is very thoughtful, but selective perception is as evident there as in the Mail, or in fact, anywhere else. Our German main news show Tagesschau is highly respected for being neutral, but there's always humans deciding what to show and what not, and what deserves how much time. Sometimes I think, the reputation of neutrality can make them dangerous in their own way. They are necessarily subjective, but other than the tabloids, their objectivity is taken for granted by a great majority.
  • NBZ 6 Jul 2013 23:18:24 2,351 posts
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    Yup. and I cant blame people for having an angle, or some sort of bias - that is what people who have either analysed or are informed will be.

    Only those that are unaware of anything will be able to be truly neutral, but their views wont be able to inform others. Everyone else can only try to be objective.

    (I am not unbiased. I do have an opinion on what is happening in Egypt.)

    Edited by NBZ at 23:20:14 06-07-2013
  • NBZ 6 Jul 2013 23:22:11 2,351 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    Pakistan is a great example too. Musharraf seemed to keep things somehow reasonable on a larger level. You knew he wouldn't actually use those nuclear weapons against India. Without him, I'm not so sure anymore.
    IMO Pakistan is a special case where democracy doesnt work - any democratically elected government things it has been given a mandate to rob the people and that is all it seems to do.

    The military while often fumbling and out of its debt rarely is as corrupt as the democratic governments.
  • NBZ 6 Jul 2013 23:24:45 2,351 posts
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    DaM wrote:
    I feel bad about supporting this, but I've been wanting it to happen for a while. Turkey too. I don't like religious rule.
    Turkey is richer and freer than it was before the current governing party got in.

    It isn't fully liberal, but liberty has only improved under the "religious rule".

    A lot of Muslims have the opinion that the "west" only likes democracy if their preferred candidates are successful. If it is limited to that, it just causes more problems in the long term.
  • NBZ 8 Jul 2013 19:11:40 2,351 posts
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    Over 50 killed this morning, 300 injured when the military mistook praying protesters for a live firing range.

    Separate incident: Soldiers taking pot shots from a rooftop at what looks like peaceful protesters

  • spamdangled 14 Aug 2013 15:44:02 27,269 posts
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    Breaking news -

    Military clearing protest sites. A month-long state of emergency has been declared.

    95 dead so far, more than 850 injured according to the government. Protesters are reporting deaths in the "hundreds" and a hospital is reporting "several thousand" injured. Explosions and gunfire are now a constant sound.

    A Sky News cameraman has been killed in the violence. Daughter of a senior Muslim Brotherhood leader has also been reportedly killed.

    Turkism PM has demanded the government "cease the massacre".
    Egyptian government has been receiving some fairly strong condemnation and demands they stop violence and open negotiations immediately from governments around the world.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 15:51:08 14-08-2013

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  • WoodenSpoon 14 Aug 2013 15:46:39 12,275 posts
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    Good luck turning this in to anything other than a military dictatorship.
  • Mr_Sleep 14 Aug 2013 15:51:45 16,838 posts
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    Wow, it's really going off there. I'm all for having a secular government but it's quickly spiralling out of control. I am intrigued to see what happens in the public conciousness after this recent situation. There was a lot of support for the anti-muslim brotherhood movement but all these deaths might change public opinion.

    You are a factory of sadness.

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