Egyptian military destroying Egyptian democracy or saving it?

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  • DrStrangelove 3 Jul 2013 20:33:55 3,954 posts
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    Not long ago, the Egyptian military has declared that president Morsi is no longer in power because he has failed to answer to the opposition's demands, and risking isntability or even civil war.

    People are jubilating. People who condemned Morsi for being like Mubarak, who was the last leader of that military dictatorship.

    I sometimes wonder what's better. A "democracy" that gives rise to extremist leaders and threatens to bring civil war, or a conservative military dictatorship that enforces some sort of "order" by means of violence and suppression.
  • X201 3 Jul 2013 20:39:20 15,446 posts
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    / leaves thread to check if "jubilating" is a real word.

    Edit: it is, that's this week's new word sorted. :-)

    Edited by X201 at 20:41:32 03-07-2013
  • Deleted user 3 July 2013 20:40:20
    Its a weird one. Probelm is every two years the population will get fed up, and demand a change, especially how shit their economy is. It can't keep going on like that.

    At the same time, they have put in a interim government and policy that seem pretty open and fair and at the end of it, the egyptian people are pretty united behind this.
  • Deleted user 3 July 2013 20:43:58
    The Egyptions have no idea what they want. They are angry and disillusioned and don't know who else to blame. There is a lot of flack you can correctly direct at Morsi but to expect him to have overturned the mess he inherited in such a short time is plain stupid.
  • Maturin 3 Jul 2013 20:52:32 2,995 posts
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    Revolutions take time. The first government following an overthrow is rarely the one the people ultimately settle on. It could take a decade for the country to become stable.

    Right now I don't think the removal of Morsi is anything to be too worried about. It's part of the growing pains of a new democracy.
  • DrStrangelove 3 Jul 2013 20:54:01 3,954 posts
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    I just wonder, can military intervention actually secure stability in a way that is to the better of the country as a whole?

    Being brought up here as diehard democrats, this goes against anything I learned, yet I think military intervention can actually be a saving grace to save the population from itself.

    edit: much was scoffed at Turkey's constitution for giving the military the right to intervene for example, but more often than not I think that's actually for the better.

    Poor military dictatorships are unjustifiedly condemned, it seems.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 20:57:03 03-07-2013
  • X201 3 Jul 2013 20:56:14 15,446 posts
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    Seemed to work out OK for Turkey
  • DrStrangelove 3 Jul 2013 21:02:07 3,954 posts
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    Pakistan is a great example too. Musharraf seemed to keep things somehow reasonable on a larger level. You knew he wouldn't actually use those nuclear weapons against India. Without him, I'm not so sure anymore.
  • Whizzo 3 Jul 2013 21:02:30 43,124 posts
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    I think it's fairly obvious what an awful lot of people of Egypt don't want and that's the Muslim Brotherhood in charge any longer.

    This space left intentionally blank.

  • DrStrangelove 3 Jul 2013 21:04:32 3,954 posts
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    Whizzo wrote:
    I think it's fairly obvious what an awful lot of people of Egypt don't want and that's the Muslim Brotherhood in charge any longer.
    True of course, but would you have expected them to greet the military overthrowing him?

    Or people in the democracist west greeting the military overthrowing him?
  • DaM 3 Jul 2013 21:05:11 13,196 posts
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    It was obvious at the elections that the Muslim Brotherhood were going to get in, the opposition had more support, but fragmented into different factions. A lesson for them I suppose.

    I feel bad about supporting this, but I've been wanting it to happen for a while. Turkey too. I don't like religious rule.
  • MrDigital 3 Jul 2013 21:06:12 1,866 posts
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    Wasn't convinced this would happen, blimey.

    Not sure how I feel about this. Morsi was democratically elected... Equally, the protests in Egypt now are larger than they were during the initial revolution, one could argue that although "official" forms of democracy were subverted, that the raw people power has prevailed in a democratic way.

    What now? Genuinely no idea.

    (Post from other thread)

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • Maturin 3 Jul 2013 21:16:30 2,995 posts
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    From what they are saying on Sky it sounds like Morsi and his party brought it on themselves by not creating a more pluralist constitution. They didn't support religious freedom, leaving the Shia minority and Egypt's Christians out in the cold. Morsi turned down IMF loans and went for money to the more oppressive Sunni states. This was a government looking after it's own.

    If the statement of the Egyptian military is sincere then they see themselves as the guardians of all Egyptians.
  • DrStrangelove 3 Jul 2013 21:43:27 3,954 posts
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    @Maturin

    He certainly brought it on himself, but what strikes me is how it all contradicts everything a German learns in school. We're taught to be fundamental democrats, that election can be the one and only justification for any government.

    It's not like I'm questioning this for the first time, I could see justification for military intervention/governments long ago, but I wonder if other western countries are similar in this condemnation, or if they have a more relaxed attitude.
  • sirtacos 4 Jul 2013 04:26:50 7,280 posts
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    I think a big mistake of popular development theory as espoused by many, is that democracy should come first. The concept of democracy as a prerequisite for stability and economic/social progress is wrong, in my mind.

    Look at the numerous failures of democracy in Sub-Saharan Africa, for example, and compare those to the East Asian 'Miracles', as they're sometimes called - which non-democratic regimes helped create.

    I'll admit that my comparison is deeply flawed (Africa & E. Asia are too different to sweepingly generalise about like I just did, ignoring all the context etc.), but it does seem to lead to the conclusion that political freedom and increased prosperity are not contingent on neoliberal economic policy + democracy. There's a lot more to it than that.

    It would be stupid not to be skeptical of a military intervention, but in Egypt's current case, it might turn out to be a necessary temporary measure to reverse the country's slide towards theocratic authoritarianism.

    Edit: or just look at Russia's shining example of what democracy can do for a country. (ALthough Russia's a fairly unique case, and was deeply fucked long before Yeltsin officially handed over the country to the mafia and their ex-KGB cronies)...

    Edited by sirtacos at 04:32:10 04-07-2013
  • Dangerous_Dan 4 Jul 2013 08:48:16 2,380 posts
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    Being brought up here as diehard democrats, this goes against anything I learned, yet I think military intervention can actually be a saving grace to save the population from itself.
    Why would you want to save the population? Maybe suffering can't be postponed indefinitely. Maybe those pockets of time where life is made free from suffering due to an iron grip on nature and the minds of people, like in modern western democracies is unsustainable.
    Maybe millions of years of evolution and suffering are the usual way of life and 70 years of peace and pacification won't extend into an eternal paradise.

    Disclaimer - I'm just kidding. Tavern wench! Bring more wine!
  • cubbymoore 4 Jul 2013 08:57:30 36,496 posts
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    The military coup was engineered by laser pen and fireworks manufacturers.
  • Load_2.0 4 Jul 2013 09:27:39 19,268 posts
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    12 Months is a very short time to bring any noticable change. The concern will be that that protest becomes the standard in place of an election process.

    2-3 years of rapid policy changes can't be good for economic stability or security.
  • nickthegun 4 Jul 2013 09:33:08 59,922 posts
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    Where, oh where will I go on a diving holiday that I never cease to tell everyone I meet how amazing it was and how they should definitely go now?

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  • Deleted user 4 July 2013 09:34:33
    Haha ^^
  • nickthegun 4 Jul 2013 09:38:13 59,922 posts
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    It was amazing, though. You get to dive a wreck in the suez canal. It was an almost spiritual experience. You should definitely go.

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  • Deleted user 4 July 2013 09:39:28
    Were you scared? I don't think I could do it see.
  • nickthegun 4 Jul 2013 09:42:06 59,922 posts
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    Ha, no ive never been. Snorkling is my limit.

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  • Deleted user 4 July 2013 09:44:48
    I was playing a long you knobber. Been in this conversation a million times.
  • nickthegun 4 Jul 2013 09:46:46 59,922 posts
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    OIC. The snorkeling was great, though. I cot swamped by a school of fish and couldnt see which way to go and totally freaked out. Would recommend.

    Also, I really like the word 'snorkel'.

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  • Deleted user 4 July 2013 09:52:16
    So what happens now if they have free and fair elections and the Muslim Brotherhood get voted in again?
  • Chopsen 4 Jul 2013 09:52:57 15,983 posts
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    Snorkelling is cool. Though I got scared by little fish, which surprised me. I didn't realise I was such a fanny. A big fuck off flat bastard swam by after I got out the sea, and if I'd seen that I would probably have needed counselling.
  • glaeken 4 Jul 2013 10:00:21 11,174 posts
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    @Alipan They will be excluded from running in the free and fair elections.

    It's actually kind of a weird one with democracies who have parties that could be voted in who don't really believe in democracy. They could limit the potential for that a little by at least having some constitution that separates religion from government. That has worked very well in the US.

    Edited by glaeken at 10:03:36 04-07-2013
  • Load_2.0 4 Jul 2013 10:02:32 19,268 posts
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    Biggest problem seems to be all these troublesome squares, Tahrir, Tiananmen, Times. Best solution if you are in charge?

    Dump a load of powdered E's on the crowd from a chopper and blast some 90's Psy-Trance.

    Get those water cannons out, free foam party.

    Boom! Protest? Nah biggest rave up ever.

    Until three days later when everyone is on a massive come down. Maybe expect a few murders midweek.
  • Deleted user 4 July 2013 10:08:45
    Snorkeling in the Maldives was tits. Apart from the wife being the daft side of brave and kept bring me to see sharks and eels she kept finding.
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