Motion Blur - LED TVs

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  • INSOMANiAC 23 Jun 2013 16:04:26 3,829 posts
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    So my aging LED TV gave up the ghost yesterday, so I went to Asda and bought a 300 quid Samsung 'Smart TV'.

    Everything was hunky dory, was very pleased with it, dicking about with the Smart TV stuff and on my PC. Then I went to play a game.....

    The motion blur is a joke. It totally ruins the image of most games, I was playing Dishonored and it was ruined by the trails left whenever I moved. Im going to have to take it back.

    Anyway, whats the best 300/400 Tv for motion blur or would I be better off getting a monitor? It'd need to have built in speakers.

    Monitor recommendations needed, 26/32 inch

    Cheers!

    Edited by INSOMANiAC at 16:04:49 23-06-2013

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  • Armoured_Bear 23 Jun 2013 16:07:44 11,267 posts
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    Can you not manage bigger, a 42" Plasma is your best bet.

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  • Syrette 23 Jun 2013 16:13:03 43,481 posts
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    Looks fine to me.

  • INSOMANiAC 23 Jun 2013 16:32:15 3,829 posts
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    @Armoured_Bear 32 is stretching it I had a 26 inch LG previously and that was suffice, but the 32 is ok, I can go any larger though. that all sounds so sordid!

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  • Deleted user 23 June 2013 16:39:50
    You sure there's not a setting to remove this?
  • INSOMANiAC 23 Jun 2013 16:50:58 3,829 posts
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    Its an LED problem, and there no kind of post processing, so no.

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  • liamthemaster 23 Jun 2013 16:55:11 1,599 posts
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    whats the model of the tv ?
  • Deleted user 23 June 2013 16:55:27
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Can you not manage bigger, a 42" Plasma is your best bet.
    38" or 46" won't do it. only 42" is good enough.
  • INSOMANiAC 23 Jun 2013 17:00:05 3,829 posts
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    ue32eh53000k I can assure you all I have spent many fruitless hours trawling the internet, this TV is going back, the motion blur is a joke, it makes everything into blurry mess and IMO makes game totally unplayable because you lose all clarity, I just tried Hitman absolution and the bricked walls looks absolutely awful, I didnt pay a fortune to build as powerful PC to have some wank TV ruin the picture.

    Im mainly here to get a recommendation for a monitor, these shitty thing is going back, theres no question about that

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  • Syrette 23 Jun 2013 17:20:58 43,481 posts
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    Maybe next time you could do this research before spending hundreds of pounds on the thing?

  • INSOMANiAC 23 Jun 2013 17:24:23 3,829 posts
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    Thanks for your excellent advice so far on this matter, I can see where your 38,000 posts have come from. I did research it and there are no reviews which state this problem. Once again though, thank you.

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  • CharlieStCloud 24 Jun 2013 08:40:04 5,202 posts
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    I do agree that you could have looked around a little bit more, but hey-ho ... these things happen!

    Although it reaches the higher end of your budget, I can very highly recommend this particular Panasonic TV which is not only 32 inches, it has the usual Smart TV bobbins too.

    Very energy efficient as well and comes with a 5 year guaranteed that John Lewis is super great for.
  • uiruki 24 Jun 2013 08:46:59 3,704 posts
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    He's right though - there's often not much on the net about panel performance. I bought a Sharp LCD on the strength of reviews a few years back and the blur was appalling (unusual for an Aquos - no other models is seen had that problem). In the end I spent more and got a Panasonic plasma which had a lot more written about it (G10 series), which was absolutely worth it.
  • mAc6 24 Jun 2013 09:42:18 692 posts
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    @INSOMANiAC have you tried putting your gameconsole/pc input on 'game-mode'? That disables a lot of unnessesary picture processecing that you do not want anyway with pure digital HD signal. This improves 'input-lag' and gives you a much faster and cleaner picture : no(t so much) smearing! With a LCD/LED you always will have some issues (compared to plasma, wich has its own kind of issues), but with compact sizes like 32 inch it will give you amazing good picture.

    Look into menu/remote/manual for GAME MODE, oh and please put Sharpness all the way down to 0, sharpnesscontrolls can really make lil graphics issues much and much worse, so get rid of artificial sharpening, LCD is already sharp as a knife :)
  • mAc6 24 Jun 2013 09:51:15 692 posts
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    @INSOMANiAC oh and i recall reading users changing the name/label of the pcinput to 'PC' or something to get smooth motion with pc. Dont have pc hooked up to (my old) Samsung LCD tv, so dont know for sure, but google it and i hope you can sort it out (with your current new tv or change to a better one), a new tv should be something to enjoy (just got new tv 2 weeks ago)!
  • AcidSnake 24 Jun 2013 09:53:53 7,275 posts
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    @INSOMANiAC:

    Sure it's not in the settings? It is for mine...

    It's called Motion Plus...Beware though, settings are individual to sources, so turning it off on the EXT-1 will still leave it enabled everywhere else for example...

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  • ILoveThrashMetal 24 Jun 2013 10:18:05 729 posts
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    Are all led's like this? Does it matter if it's back lit or side lit?
    I know side lit ones are a bit of a con.
    Is it the refresh rate?
    I instantly noticed the difference between plasma and lcd.
    So what panels do these new 4k and 8k use?
    Apologies for the questions

    Arsechickens

  • Spectral 24 Jun 2013 10:42:01 4,990 posts
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    Its nothing to do with it being LED. They are still LCD panels just with a different type of back light. Its the response time that causes the blur, however there is no standard in measuring it so take manufacturers claims with a pinch of salt. It doesn't help matters that manufacturers often use different LCD panels in the same model TV leading to a panel lottery when buying. It's the main reason I still use an old 19" TV as I got sick of having to return TV's that were a blurry mess.
  • mal 24 Jun 2013 10:44:30 22,554 posts
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    8k? I don't think those are available yet, and 4k sets are still the wrong side of a grand, I think.

    I dunno if INSOMNIAC means LED when he says it, cos he says he's got an ageing LED which went titsup, and I didn't think LED backlighting had been around for more than a gen or two. Regarding ghosting, seems to me LED or LCD should be about the same, as ghosting shouldn't have anything to do with the backlight, and other than the backlight, LED and LCD is the same tech.

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  • INSOMANiAC 24 Jun 2013 16:36:33 3,829 posts
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    Thanks for the responses but I can assure you, Ive been through every mode a hell of a lot of times, PC, Gaming mode, Motion plus, you name it.

    I've become something of an expert int he subject during my many many hours looking it up the past two days, http://www.blurbusters.com/ this page will explain it easier, but basically its to do with 'Pixel persistance'

    The only way to truly eliminate it is to have a backlight that strobes at the same speed as the FPS of whatever you're using. This technique can only be done using a 'lightboost' monitor and a 'hack' to use the tech when not using 3d. Even then, the monitor is running at 120hz and so the game would need to be running at 120fps to totally eliminate the blur.



    I dont read of any issues with PC monitors like the Benq and Im assuming it because the response time is so quick the blur is imperceptible.

    You can get Tv with 'CMR' and all that kind of nonsense that add extra frames to reduce blur but that will result in some input lag. The problem is, there are very few 32 inch TVs (If any) that use the highest type of CMR, this one I've bought doesnt seem to use any, even though it has a 'motion plus' option. This model is the 5300K which Im assuming is exclusive to Asda as its not listed anywhere and appears to be the same as the standard 5300 except theres no freeview HD and there is no faux '100hz' (50hz plus CMR)

    They did have another samsung in there for 70 quid more which looked identical but had '100hz CMR 100 rating' on the box so that probably the standard 5300 and might deal with this blur better.

    I'm reluctant to go and get one though in case it looks just as shit and I've spent an extra 70 quid. I'm not joking when I say this blur makes games unplayable, it's a joke. The 'motion plus' setting does absolutely nothing.

    I really cant get a monitor though for a number of reasons, mainly that ill need a soundbar and to plug my pc/wii u/Xbox/PS3 into it every time I want to use it, I'll have no TV functionality and no remote so I can't be arsed with all that. Just need a decent TV !

    Edited by INSOMANiAC at 16:43:06 24-06-2013

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  • INSOMANiAC 24 Jun 2013 16:49:58 3,829 posts
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    @CharlieStCloud I didn't realise motion blur was a problem, as I say, Ilooked into the various TVs before I bought it and this one has an average of 4 and half out of 5 reviews on Amazon... kind of enough to make you think its a good un..

    Thanks, Ive had a look at that Panasonic but it doesnt mention any kind of CMR or motion blur reduction techology which make me wonder why its 99 quid more expensive than the Samsung, maybe it has a faster response time but they dont put these number in most places arrrrgh

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  • INSOMANiAC 24 Jun 2013 16:53:49 3,829 posts
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    @ILoveThrashMetal All LCD/LEDs will have some kind of motion blur but some will use post processing to try and get rid of it, that can cause artifacts though as the TV is trying to predetermine what will appear on screen next. It also cause input lag because you are effectively getting double the amount of frames with 50% of those frames being 'made up' by the Tv.

    When you see a TV that claims to be '100hz' it is actually 50hz and is using this technique to fake 100hz, no terrestrial broadcasts use 'real 100hz' so it would be false economy on the part of the TV manufacturer (unless they wanted to put in the TV what they actually put on the box instead of deliberately misleading with their bullshit 'CMR' ratings'. You can see by the graph I've provided how the Hz determine the ms of motion blur

    Edited by INSOMANiAC at 16:55:06 24-06-2013

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  • INSOMANiAC 24 Jun 2013 19:27:36 3,829 posts
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    So I changed it for the LG 32LN5400 (40 quid dearer, no smart TV etc)....

    The motion blur is slightly better, especially on the desktop when scrolling, the text no longer turns into a blur. There still blur in game but its is id say maybe a 25% improvement at a guess.

    however, the black levels are nowhere near as good as the Samsung and the sound is nothing short pathetic and tinny and on a white background the colour is uneven and greyish on the left hand side. I definitely can't put up with that sound. Going back !

    Edited by INSOMANiAC at 19:29:00 24-06-2013

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  • BinaryBob101 24 Jun 2013 20:02:14 22,964 posts
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    Anybody expecting decent sound on a TV that cheap probably needs to increase their budget.

    Send it back and get a Panny plasma.

    /helpful

    The Grumpy Vaper

  • mal 24 Jun 2013 20:09:25 22,554 posts
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    Hmm, on that graph the most motion blur is 16.7ms. The interval between frames on a 60Hz signal is about 16.6ms, and given most console games are 30Hz that interval's twice that. A motion blur that's a thousand millionth of a second over the input source doesn't sound that bad to be.

    On an old fashioned CRT for example the scanning beam would draw the bottom of the screen almost 20ms after the top (I'm ignoring the vblank interval, as to the best of my knowledge it's normally less than 10% of the scan rate - it used to be so much easier to find this shit out on the internet than it is these days). Granted, motion blur is probably more noticable than time offset graphics, but if 17ms was that significant I'd have thought I'd have heard people complaining that their health bar didn't respond to damage quickly enough.

    Edit: If you're using it as a PC display, no TV will be as good as a PC monitor. PC monitors use TN matrix panels and usually use a trick known as overdrive, which dramatically improves black-to-white times, but it would be rubbish to have on TV since it cripples grey-to-grey (or any colour-to-any colour) times. TVs on the other hand tend to use IPS panels (as do most tablets, as it happens) which have much worse response times, but are much more colour accurate and don't have nearly as narrow a sweet spot as computer monitors have.

    Edited by mal at 20:14:43 24-06-2013

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  • INSOMANiAC 24 Jun 2013 20:17:22 3,829 posts
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    @BinaryBob101 My old LG had decent sound as did the Samsung, Im not talking concert quality, I have realistic expectations, but when it sounds like you're hearing through someone else loud pair of headphones its a joke.

    Also, the motion blur really isnt any better, its almost sufferable on a 60fps PC game, on the last of us online its just a big fucking mess when you move. I really dont know what the answer is beyond getting a monitor and having to dick around with sound bars everytime I want to change machines.

    Also, If you can find me a 1080p plasma 32 inch Ill buy one!

    First world problems.

    Edited by INSOMANiAC at 20:22:10 24-06-2013

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  • INSOMANiAC 24 Jun 2013 20:21:35 3,829 posts
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    mal wrote:
    Hmm, on that graph the most motion blur is 16.7ms. The interval between frames on a 60Hz signal is about 16.6ms, and given most console games are 30Hz that interval's twice that. A motion blur that's a thousand millionth of a second over the input source doesn't sound that bad to be.

    On an old fashioned CRT for example the scanning beam would draw the bottom of the screen almost 20ms after the top (I'm ignoring the vblank interval, as to the best of my knowledge it's normally less than 10% of the scan rate - it used to be so much easier to find this shit out on the internet than it is these days). Granted, motion blur is probably more noticable than time offset graphics, but if 17ms was that significant I'd have thought I'd have heard people complaining that their health bar didn't respond to damage quickly enough.

    Edit: If you're using it as a PC display, no TV will be as good as a PC monitor. PC monitors use TN matrix panels and usually use a trick known as overdrive, which dramatically improves black-to-white times, but it would be rubbish to have on TV since it cripples grey-to-grey (or any colour-to-any colour) times. TVs on the other hand tend to use IPS panels (as do most tablets, as it happens) which have much worse response times, but are much more colour accurate and don't have nearly as narrow a sweet spot as computer monitors have.
    Well in theory maybe it doesn't sound too bad, in practice, when everything is a mess when you turn at speed and text is unreadable then its a different matter. What I dont understand is I didnt have any of these problems with my LG 26 inch 720p LCD and yet its extremely prevalent on these things?

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  • Sharzam 25 Jun 2013 16:33:41 2,877 posts
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    For my knowledge how does LED back light compare with CCFL back lighting? Their both LCD after all.

    My monitor is LED and is designed for gaming with super fast response and no blur or ghosting. Where as my TV is about 3 years old and is a LG 38" with no led but works for gaming just not as crystal as I would like. Also keeping an eye out for a TV as want more contrast.

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  • INSOMANiAC 26 Jun 2013 01:34:45 3,829 posts
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    @Sharzam

    If you want to get yourself an LED 32 inch LG or Samsung, then knock yourself out if you can live with this kind of picture, just in case people think I'm exaggerating.

    This is the Second TV, the LG with its 100hz bollocks.

    Believe me, it looks much much worse in motion, with Juddering etc, makes game totally unplayable.





    Edited by INSOMANiAC at 01:38:51 26-06-2013

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  • INSOMANiAC 26 Jun 2013 02:26:36 3,829 posts
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    For anyone even slightly interested, Ive given up with these shitbox cheap TVs and got myself a monitor, more specifically Iiyama G2773HS 27" LED 120Hz Gaming Monitor

    http://www.cclonline.com/product/80205/PLG2773HS-1/Monitors/Iiyama-Prolite-G2773HS-LED-Monitor/MON0910/

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