MS to back track on DRM and always online? Page 20

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  • MrTomFTW Moderator 22 Jun 2013 09:38:00 37,860 posts
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    Also, they could re-instate it for games the owner has bought via digital download. That would also have the effect of encouraging people to buy via download which is what MS wants in the end right?

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  • MrTomFTW Moderator 22 Jun 2013 09:39:27 37,860 posts
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    kentmonkey wrote:
    /prints off photo of Mr Tom
    /holds it in front of camera
    /promises to the gods of MS that he's really my brother
    I wonder if Kinect will be able to tell... Well that's experiment number 1 for Digital Foundry :D

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  • kentmonkey 22 Jun 2013 10:00:09 20,595 posts
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    Perfect way to fuck up Kinect's potential 'restrictions'

    Edited by kentmonkey at 10:01:06 22-06-2013
  • Spectral 22 Jun 2013 10:02:27 4,980 posts
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    I really wish they'd drop the kinect requirement but I can see why they want it. Unfortunately it means that this will be the first console in generations I dont own all 3.
  • Baihu1983 22 Jun 2013 11:16:47 3,415 posts
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    @kentmonkey MS already said they didn't care if you picked family members or not.
  • IMO 22 Jun 2013 11:26:32 5,638 posts
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    Spectral wrote:
    I really wish they'd drop the kinect requirement but I can see why they want it. Unfortunately it means that this will be the first console in generations I dont own all 3.
    I'm just going to come out and say it: I am really looking forward to the possibilities of an enhanced Kinect. I also think motion-controlled gaming doesn't have to be the technological pariah that we all make it out to be.

    Don't judge me.
  • superdelphinus 22 Jun 2013 11:36:38 8,051 posts
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    Yeah but what about all the privaceh and shit
  • Spectral 22 Jun 2013 11:38:41 4,980 posts
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    I've got nothing against it in principle. I just dont think it will work how and where I game. I have the consoles hooked up to the same monitor as the PC so use a small screen very close instead of a large screen further away. The room I game in is also too small, the living room is a no gaming zone.
  • Progguitarist 22 Jun 2013 11:50:22 10,420 posts
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  • neilka 22 Jun 2013 11:52:57 15,850 posts
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    You don't have to use the Kinect, just have it connected. For some reason.

    A map is like comparing velocity and speed.

  • sirtacos 22 Jun 2013 13:27:58 7,274 posts
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    @all the people saying games' narrative aspirations are ridiculous, I disagree.

    I don't think it's a matter of "games are their own medium and therefore should stop trying to ape movies/choose-your-own-adventure-books". I think it's a matter of dissonance between game and story. The predominant approach seems to involve creating the two separately and then squeezing them together like James Gandolfini into a tight rubber gimp suit. If the process were more synergistic - that is, if narrative and gameplay were virtually one and the same, or at least fed into each other more organically - then that would be nice.

    Reducing the entire process to "just stick with the game and leave the writing to the experts" (i.e. movies etc.) is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is a middle ground.

    Edit: after giving it a bit more thought, I think my claims are specious and vague. I certainly can't substantiate my argument with a concrete example of a game that integrates grand narrative and gameplay in a way that isn't terribly awkward. My mind keeps going back to the most egregious example of recent times: Bioshock Infinite. On the other end of the spectrum, you have stuff like Don't Starve and Mount & Blade: Warband, which are practically devoid of any narrative whatsoever.

    Hmmm... nope. Can't think of anything.

    Edited by sirtacos at 13:35:54 22-06-2013
  • RobTheBuilder 22 Jun 2013 13:40:57 6,521 posts
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    I dislike having kinect always on, but then I did start to think that I have an always connected webcam on my PC. Plus every laptop and NetBook and phone has one too...
  • Bremenacht 22 Jun 2013 14:11:28 17,843 posts
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    sport wrote:
    OMG, what have we done?

    WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!?!?!
    I feel terrible now.

    I could have had it all. Utopia was right there: perfect games, perfectly delivered and realised on the perfect console at the perfect price.

    But rather than signing up to Input One, I whined instead. Microsoft heard me, and took it all away. :'(
  • Bremenacht 22 Jun 2013 14:13:07 17,843 posts
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    meme wrote:
    The best game narratives (and stories) use gameplay to forward it. This absolutely does not require cinematics, AAA budgets or even decent graphics.

    I know I keep pimping it, but Papers, Please is a fantastic example of how this idea of gameplay narrative can work - the gameplay mechanics in themselves create narrative dilemma (ultimately ending up a balancing act whereby being good at the game and following the rules actually endangers your fictional family). And it doesn't even have a fully fleshed out story behind it yet.

    But yes, "game narratives" and "story narratives" are two wildly different things. The former is very rarely used, the latter is massively overused and often shoehorned uncomfortably (especially in open world games, where the gameplayer can do things entirely at odds with the motivations of the character they're playing). Games need to stop attempting to ape movies and grow into their own medium.
    There's a Dan Whitehead piece on the front page at the moment that could probably do replacing with this non-hyperbolic piece of text.

    Edited by Bremenacht at 14:16:05 22-06-2013
  • Deleted user 22 June 2013 15:03:52
    I think he's almost saying something else. He's suggesting that sandbox narrative is the best thing for games. Whilst I don't wholly disagree--some of the best parts of games like Silent Hunter 3 are the action reports some people generate afterwards--and whilst I don't want to compare the different mediums directly, it's a bit like suggesting kids playing Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles in the playground is better than watching the show. In some degrees, it is, in others, it completely isn't.

    Plus there's the other issue that making gameplay narrative all about emergent sandbox gameplay could make for incredibly lazy storytelling--"we don't need to come up with a solid setting or story, we'll just let the player fill in the gaps". It's almost along the same lines as representational graphics vs realistic ones--make graphics sparse and purely functional, even just something like ascii, and the player's imagination has to fill in the blanks and thus becomes better than if we detailed it intricately with phong shaders etc etc--again it's not a theory I necessarily disagree with (look at Dwarf Fortress), but it's not a one-size-fits-all thing and could again simply be used as an excuse for creative laziness.

    Interactivity is the thing that separates games from other mediums, true, but that doesn't necessitate giving the narrative power to the player in themselves. Look at A Mind Forever Voyaging, Walking Dead, and to a lesser extent Braid or Pathologic. They're all flawed in their own way (especially Pathologic's dodgy translation issues), but they all have narrative that could only really be done in games, yet all ultimately have completely linear stories and no real emergent gameplay to speak of.
  • sport 22 Jun 2013 16:10:04 12,695 posts
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    What the hell are you talking about, Gremmi?
  • Whizzo 22 Jun 2013 16:20:09 43,093 posts
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    There is never a good reason to post a C-A-D comic, never.

    This space left intentionally blank.

  • Deleted user 22 June 2013 16:37:19
    sport wrote:
    What the hell are you talking about, Gremmi?
    Your mother.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 22 Jun 2013 16:45:09 37,860 posts
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    Whizzo wrote:
    There is never a good reason to post a C-A-D comic, never.
    How about to remind you he's still shit?

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
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  • sanctusmortis 22 Jun 2013 16:51:32 9,628 posts
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    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Whizzo wrote:
    There is never a good reason to post a C-A-D comic, never.
    How about to remind you he's still shit?
    Not even then.
  • sirtacos 22 Jun 2013 17:40:59 7,274 posts
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    meme wrote:
    not a one-size-fits-all thing and could again simply be used as an excuse for creative laziness.

    Interactivity is the thing that separates games from other mediums, true, but that doesn't necessitate giving the narrative power to the player in themselves. Look at A Mind Forever Voyaging, Walking Dead, and to a lesser extent Braid or Pathologic. They're all flawed in their own way (especially Pathologic's dodgy translation issues), but they all have narrative that could only really be done in games, yet all ultimately have completely linear stories and no real emergent gameplay to speak of.
    Yes! TheWalking Dead! That's the example I was looking for.
    Also, To The Moon - if you're into that kind of thing. It's barely a game, really, but I liked it.
  • DodgyPast 22 Jun 2013 18:54:27 8,450 posts
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    If people are noodling about that kind of thing what about the personal narrative of your experience with the game.

    For example my memories of playing Dark Souls are very strong and I might even go so far as to say it helped me rediscover a certain form of grim determination that I've since used elsewhere in my life.

    The assumption that they're frivolous entertainment seems to prevent us from considering whether individual games have had a meaningful impact on our lives.
  • Deleted user 22 June 2013 19:02:40
    Not really. It's just that personal narrative and intent/purpose are completely separate with no overlap. You can have a deep personal connection with something utterly frivolous and ostensibly meaningless. Someone could be inspired by Transformers to investigate robotics and AI, or consider the ramifications of what "life" is, or want to join the military, or countless things that have a distinct person impact. Likewise someone could watch Tree of Life and take absolutely nothing from it. That doesn't change the former being mindless lowbrow entertainment and the latter being something deeper and more intrinsically meaningful.
  • GuiltySpark 22 Jun 2013 19:53:27 6,363 posts
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    DodgyPast wrote:
    For example my memories of playing Dark Souls are very strong and I might even go so far as to say it helped me rediscover a certain form of grim determination that I've since used elsewhere in my life.
    She finally left the door unlocked eh?

    Get bent.

  • altitude2k 22 Jun 2013 22:15:49 4,122 posts
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    I think it's quite telling that comments on the Daily Mail's article about this are seeing a similar trend in positives and negatives as the comments on the Eurogamer article.
  • werewolf_poo 22 Jun 2013 22:30:29 150 posts
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    [/URL]
  • sirtacos 23 Jun 2013 00:56:56 7,274 posts
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    About the sandbox vs. 'proper story' debate...

    The Walking Dead and To The Moon are examples of story done well.

    To be honest though, even those two examples are a bit crap. They're great in their own ways, sure, especially from a narrative standpoint, but TWD's gameplay mechanics (outside of dialogue) are awkward and highly reminiscent of Heavy Rain (i.e. move your mouse left and right to brush your teeth, press X to Jason...) it basically amounts to busywork to keep the player distracted from the fact that they don't have that much agency/interactivity outside of key points in the story.

    Braid is a much better example.
    The original Bioshock is another - perhaps only because of the clever twist, which justifies the linearity that came before it, but still.
    Planescape Torment is a favourite of mine, but I could also unfavourably compare it to a choose your own adventure book.
    Deus Ex is probably closer to what I'm trying to get at.
    From what I've heard, Spec Ops: The Line also manages to meaningfully integrate gameplay and story without too many concessions.
    Metal Gear Solid would not be the same without its wacky, self-indulgent and occasionally tedious cinematic pretensions.

    Anyway, back to my original point: games can have meaningful grand narratives, and it'd be a terrible shame if everyone decided to abandon that in favour of emergent gameplay like meme said (actually it wasn't meme. Maybe I'm just inventing a strawman to argue against. I'm pretty sure someone did say something along those lines on the previous page though).
  • Deleted user 23 June 2013 01:31:30
    Yeah, I was hesitant to mention TWD, but the fact that the gameplay choices it does have are basically made at an emotional, rather than logical (whether real-world or in-game logic) level, makes it stand out as a decent example of game narrative in a linear world. And yes, I was also arguing against emergent gameplay being the defacto "narrative" of choice. It was an article on the front page that argued it's the best--possibly even the only--way forward. So really I should have left it as a comment there, but comment-threads are shite.
  • the_dudefather 23 Jun 2013 03:44:41 9,287 posts
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    altitude2k wrote:
    I think it's quite telling that comments on the Daily Mail's article about this are seeing a similar trend in positives and negatives as the comments on the Eurogamer article.
    If you hate drm then you're probably racist too? ;)

    (ง ͠ ͟ʖ ͡)

  • Deleted user 23 June 2013 08:24:03
    The flaw of storytelling in many modern games is they think that storytelling means cutscenes and removal of any interactivity from the player for several minutes at a time.

    Keep cutscenes short and always ask whether it could be done better another way.
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