How second hand sales on XBone will work Page 14

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  • jimlufc 28 May 2013 13:36:01 118 posts
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    People don't moan about not being able to resell MP3s. People don't moan about not owning content accessed on Netflix. People don't moan about not being able to sell games bought on Steam.

    The problem with buying digital copies of console games is there is no free market. No competition amongst retailers to force prices down.

    At least when you want to buy an MP3 album you can choose between iTunes or Play.com or Amazon or any other number of shops. And MP3 albums are generally much cheaper than they used to be on CD.

    You just know that digital copies of games will be £49.99 on the new PS4 and Xbox One game stores.
  • mcmonkeyplc 28 May 2013 13:40:10 39,464 posts
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    Yes and retail and compete to make their retail copies cheaper. It's just that second hand games won't be that much cheaper anymore.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • TheSaint 28 May 2013 13:43:22 14,497 posts
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    A decent selection of companies selling Steam keys seems to have developed on PC, so the same could happen for consoles.
  • GiarcYekrub 28 May 2013 13:48:01 3,783 posts
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    I'd like to see Steam and Origin on Xbox One offering multiple store fronts for digital content
  • SomaticSense 28 May 2013 13:57:33 8,460 posts
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    It would be nice, but it'll never happen.
  • Cappy 28 May 2013 13:59:48 11,972 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    A decent selection of companies selling Steam keys seems to have developed on PC, so the same could happen for consoles.
    The consoles are walled gardens though, they're entirely closed and setup to keep competition out. You can't draw any parallels with how things work on a PC.
  • mcmonkeyplc 28 May 2013 14:11:22 39,464 posts
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    Steam isn't a walled garden? OH RLY?!

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • TarickStonefire 28 May 2013 14:15:05 3,133 posts
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    jimlufc wrote:
    You just know that digital copies of games will be £49.99 on the new PS4 and Xbox One game stores.
    I'd be fascinated to see the sales figures for those, and how the suits justify what I suspect would be their exceedingly paltry nature.

    Any Netflix library in the world for a couple of quid a month? Gimme!

  • SomaticSense 28 May 2013 14:17:54 8,460 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Steam isn't a walled garden? OH RLY?!
    He means the consoles, not the stores. Obviously.
  • TheSaint 28 May 2013 14:20:31 14,497 posts
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    It may be an exception but Ni no Kuni has been cheaper on PSN then it has ever been for a physical copy.
  • SomaticSense 28 May 2013 14:23:26 8,460 posts
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    It was the same with Tales of Vesperia.

    That was due a mild rarity in available physical copies though, with digital obviously not having that problem.
  • disusedgenius 28 May 2013 14:26:24 5,359 posts
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    SomaticSense wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Steam isn't a walled garden? OH RLY?!
    He means the consoles, not the stores. Obviously.
    ...and steam has support for UPlay and GFWL etc anyway.
  • PhoenixFlames 28 May 2013 16:09:57 9,074 posts
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    Ryze wrote:
    PhoenixFlames wrote:
    If, from what I've read so far, second hand Xbone games will always cost the same as new then it's a no brainer to choose PS4. Long gone are the days when I'll hand over £40 for a game.
    What'll likely happen over the next 3 years is that the market will decide which games we're not prepared to spend £40+ on in the knowledge that we can't make anything back if it's a turkey, or simply to fund future purchases.

    So - if the prices are anywhere near rigidly fixed at their RRP, plenty of games outside of the top FIFA/COD/GTA/BF/GOW/HALO games just wont sell very many copies until the price is lowered. This will have to continue in some cases, until the price gets low enough that people choose to buy. The masses wont suddenly find £100s more to buy games with. They'll buy less games unless the price drops.

    Really - would a game like Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden remain at £40 for very long, pre-owned or not? If so, then they'd better be happy selling 500,000 copies, as they'll simply not sell unless they dial down the prices according to the demand and the sales figures. At £20 or less, they'd both start selling more readily, then at £15 or less it becomes an easy impulse purchase.

    I don't mind them making money on ALL retail sales of their games, but the informal swapping between friends is seemingly ruined by this, so it'll be interesting to see how this affects childrens' and teens' games buying habits. Swapping was ESSENTIAL when I was 11-14 years old, in order to even have ANY access to new games outside of Christmas and Birthdays. Without it, the younger audience may well stick to pre-owned on the 360/PS3, as the base is so large that in general, games should keep coming for the next 4 years at the very least.

    Regardless of how this pricing scheme STARTS, I believe it will be very different in 3 years time when we've seen a list of costly flops due to stubborn and arrogant price points coupled with a tiny installed base.

    I reckon there's LOADS for them to tell us regarding pricing and subscriptions at E3 and beyond, and I'd be VERY surprised if a daily or even hourly rental option for friends borrowing our games wasn't somehow included.

    We'll see...

    edit:

    Of course it's been said that we can sell our games on to other people, but this doesn't help if I want to swap my game with my mate's, permanently.

    The other issue is how much we can really make back from selling a game that we've bought. It's all up in the air, so it'll be interesting to see how this all turns out, as well as the subsidised options for buying the console cheaply while bundled with a service of some sort.
    Interesting. Thanks for posting.

    PSN - phoenix1flames

  • Deleted user 28 May 2013 18:21:00
    PenguinJim wrote:
    vizzini wrote:

    You still don't get it, the point I'm making is that the world of game creation is paid for (at premium prices) and “driven” by home consoles consumers that want to own games (in the style of books).
    Any figures for that? Surely there would be no PC exclusives if they didn't pay for themselves?

    vizzini wrote:

    Who pays for AAA game development is an old console versus PC argument that everyone accepts that consoles pay for the industries biggest software technology achievements.
    Again, who is this "everyone"? Got any figures for that? :p I think that a little thing called the "3D Arms Race" happened on PC, not console. If consoles were pushing 3D tech, why did the PS3 have the RSX inside? (Oh, right - it's brought ray-tracing to the masses! FINALLY!) Until this generation, consoles could barely do anything other than games - surely there are thousands of software technology achievements unrelated to games and therefore impossible to attribute to consoles? (Oh, no, wait - let me guess! Those don't count!)

    vizzini wrote:

    So preserving AAA gaming history is far more important on a disc based medium(drm free) on home consoles than any other device.
    Tried copying a PS3 game recently? Mind letting me borrow one? (Just upload a copy of the disc for me to download - there surely won't be any DRM to get in the way)

    And when all of the PS3 consoles have YLOD'd in six-eight years, how will we play them then?

    vizzini wrote:

    If you've ever really enjoyed gaming, you should worry about its historical preservation, and be in the same boat the rest of the vocal gamers are in condemning any home console system that seeks to doubly reward the arse hole publishers at the expense of gaming preservation and consumer rights.
    Historical preservation? The only console I can see that being a problem for is the PS3 - how are we going to emulate it? Oh, it's not a problem, because Sony are offering backwards compatibility through streaming. FOREVER. So you're absolutely not being hypocritical in the slightest, and you're absolutely the best person to make that point. :)

    vizzini wrote:

    ...if it is true that they abandon the SPU/EiB Cell R&D. I'll be the first person in line to tell Sony they've repeated the Vita hardware mistake, and won't be buying a PS4 if it is just a Sony PC.
    Oops, that quote's a month old. However did it get in here?
    That's a bit paradoxical don't you think? You clearly read all my comments to be able to misquote me out of context so spectacularly over a prolonged period. So I clearly don't need to answer any of those questions you already know the answer to. Sadly the non-stalker readers will be unlikely to find the missing context, but whatever.

    I think you misunderstand my use of the term “DRM free”. I'm talking in the context of X360 versus X1, so specifically about the online authorisation and the DRM online heartbeat MS have implemented to tie games to online user accounts. I am not talking about the usual copy protection system that has been in games for decades but still allows games on media to be freely reused on any offline working console.

    Why would I need to emulate a PS3 for historical preservation if I have access to working consoles and spare parts for decades through second hand stores like ebay

    I'm not counting on any of these companies(Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo) being in business in 20years time, never mind having activation servers running to let old experiences work, like a NES does today.
  • ronuds 28 May 2013 18:27:23 21,788 posts
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    TarickStonefire wrote:
    jimlufc wrote:
    You just know that digital copies of games will be £49.99 on the new PS4 and Xbox One game stores.
    I'd be fascinated to see the sales figures for those, and how the suits justify what I suspect would be their exceedingly paltry nature.
    How could they sell them for less without hurting their relationship with retailers?
  • mcmothercruncher 28 May 2013 18:30:42 7,108 posts
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    Less teenager oiks cluttering up the latest games' servers with their chlamidya encrusted "ends" and "yolo" talk.

    I'm suddenly all in favour of Microsoft DRM'ing my arse.
  • PenguinJim 29 May 2013 01:45:02 5,880 posts
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    vizzini wrote:
    That's a bit paradoxical don't you think? You clearly read all my comments to be able to misquote me out of context so spectacularly over a prolonged period. So I clearly don't need to answer any of those questions you already know the answer to. Sadly the non-stalker readers will be unlikely to find the missing context, but whatever.
    That's OK. We'll skip what were sure to be succinct and devastatingly brilliant answers. I still have no idea how the 3D arms race of the last twenty years has suddenly been retconned to console, or why console versions of games are always the lead and the PC never gets a port in less than five years, or why every PC exclusive is made and sold at a loss. And it's obviously my fault that your use of "DRM free" means "different DRM". :p

    So don't worry about answering any of that. Just give me those links to the figures I asked for. No answers necessary there, just a few numbers.

    And how about a yes/no answer for this, just to make sure that I've got your final answer straight in my head:

    You'll never buy the "repugnant" One because of the "draconian" DRM that (as far as we know) doesn't allow you to lend your software to friends, but does allow you to sell your software on. But you'll buy Android software that doesn't even allow you to sell it because:

    "The major difference is that any “meaningful” gaming experience worth preserving is always on home consoles first(bar one or two DRm free physical Nintendo/Sony handheld games). The other platforms only get 5-10 year later (and inferior) copies of console(& old PC) gaming R&D games, or the new experiences are so trivial/bitesize in nature they aren't imperative to the preservation of gaming history(or will get back ported like Angrybirds). "

    So: buying One games damages the gaming industry and the historical preservation of the gaming industry. Buying Android software (for example) doesn't, and you simply don't care about the... smartphone software industry (because it's not part of the "gaming industry" ). Yes/no?

    I'm not sure I've quite got that right, because that conclusion seems at odds with what you said the other day. By "At the point a product removes consumer rights in such a draconian way, the change in relationship to lose the perpetual license to those single player experiences... become priceless", I would have thought that you'd absolutely be against smartphone software where the product removes consumer rights in an even more severe way (and with Sony's support, no less!). (And it goes without saying that you hate Kindle, but that's a whole other topic)

    Enlighten me, vizzy!

    Edit: grrr, EG's close-quotes-close-parenthesis-smiley glitch! Worse than DRM! :mad:

    Edited by PenguinJim at 01:49:38 29-05-2013
  • RightBean 29 May 2013 06:50:19 651 posts
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    In my mind Android/PSN/XBLA are different, they are completely new form compared to DVD/Cartridge/Cassette tape games on home consoles, I don't have the same expectation in terms of rights... I accept that it's different, because it is a new thing, it introduces greater convenience and also the prices are usually substantially lower, which I think compensates a little for the limitations. How will the One compensate for the new restrictions? It won't have greater convenience, and disk games will be the same price.

    Anyway, I think it will hurt them, it is such a common thing for people to sell their old games in order to purchase new ones, that's a big reason why all these used copies exist in the first place, so they are compromising peoples ability to spend money on their new shit. I don't think they realise not everyone is full of money or how important used games are in the wider picture. It's not just about profit either, it's about the social aspect of people sharing games, the size and penetration of the market. Ah.. fuck 'em.

    Edited by RightBean at 06:50:58 29-05-2013
  • Armoured_Bear 29 May 2013 07:28:17 11,300 posts
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    jimlufc wrote:
    People don't moan about not being able to resell MP3s. People don't moan about not owning content accessed on Netflix. People don't moan about not being able to sell games bought on Steam.

    The problem with buying digital copies of console games is there is no free market. No competition amongst retailers to force prices down.

    At least when you want to buy an MP3 album you can choose between iTunes or Play.com or Amazon or any other number of shops. And MP3 albums are generally much cheaper than they used to be on CD.

    You just know that digital copies of games will be £49.99 on the new PS4 and Xbox One game stores.

    MP3 albums are shit, significantly inferior in terms of sound quality and completely lack documentation and packaging, they should be tons cheaper.

    XBL : ecosse011172
    PSN : ecosse_011172
    NNID : armoured_bear

  • King_Edward 29 May 2013 07:37:47 11,454 posts
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    Plus, whether they want me to or not, I can share my MP3s.
  • oconnomiyaki 29 May 2013 08:31:59 245 posts
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    jimlufc wrote:
    People don't moan about not being able to resell MP3s. People don't moan about not owning content accessed on Netflix. People don't moan about...
    I know you went on to make a different point here, but at the same time it's fascinating to see how far behind the times gaming can be. The only people who get kind of close are Sony with PS+. I never buy CDs now, and I'll only buy the movies I truly love like Star Wars and Alien. Otherwise, I just subscribe to services. I don't really care if I don't own the content -- and I can always buy it if it's good -- but the selection and variety for the cost per month is a no-brainer.

    There was the Sega Channel in the US, and PS+ globally, but no one has really seemed to work out that a subscription service makes all this moot but for the collector.
  • King_Edward 29 May 2013 09:50:36 11,454 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    Confirmed that Xbox wont play age related content if it picks up unknown or underaged faces.

    Really does seem like this is the end of consoles.
    So much for the theory MS are pandering to Activision and EA. This would half CoD's userbase.
  • Load_2.0 29 May 2013 10:00:33 19,361 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    Confirmed that Xbox wont play age related content if it picks up unknown or underaged faces.

    Really does seem like this is the end of consoles.
    What? Madness.

    There was a story today that kinnect would be used when watching shows like Big Brother or the X-Factor. Participation (jumping about like a twat) would earn achievements or badges.

    It is pretty much everything I hate about consoles amplified to an unbearable degree.
  • TheSaint 29 May 2013 10:02:17 14,497 posts
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    Where is it confirmed?
  • Deckard1 29 May 2013 10:02:21 28,268 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    Confirmed that Xbox wont play age related content if it picks up unknown or underaged faces.

    Really does seem like this is the end of consoles.
    Haha bollocks, where you read that?
  • mcmonkeyplc 29 May 2013 10:04:31 39,464 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    Confirmed that Xbox wont play age related content if it picks up unknown or underaged faces.

    Really does seem like this is the end of consoles.
    Source?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Deckard1 29 May 2013 10:05:03 28,268 posts
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    Sales of old man mask have sky rocketed!!

  • Deleted user 29 May 2013 10:52:11
    PenguinJim wrote:
    vizzini wrote:
    That's a bit paradoxical don't you think? You clearly read all my comments to be able to misquote me out of context so spectacularly over a prolonged period. So I clearly don't need to answer any of those questions you already know the answer to. Sadly the non-stalker readers will be unlikely to find the missing context, but whatever.
    That's OK. We'll skip what were sure to be succinct and devastatingly brilliant answers. I still have no idea how the 3D arms race of the last twenty years has suddenly been retconned to console, or why console versions of games are always the lead and the PC never gets a port in less than five years, or why every PC exclusive is made and sold at a loss. And it's obviously my fault that your use of "DRM free" means "different DRM". :p

    So don't worry about answering any of that. Just give me those links to the figures I asked for. No answers necessary there, just a few numbers.

    And how about a yes/no answer for this, just to make sure that I've got your final answer straight in my head:

    You'll never buy the "repugnant" One because of the "draconian" DRM that (as far as we know) doesn't allow you to lend your software to friends, but does allow you to sell your software on. But you'll buy Android software that doesn't even allow you to sell it because:

    "The major difference is that any “meaningful” gaming experience worth preserving is always on home consoles first(bar one or two DRm free physical Nintendo/Sony handheld games). The other platforms only get 5-10 year later (and inferior) copies of console(& old PC) gaming R&D games, or the new experiences are so trivial/bitesize in nature they aren't imperative to the preservation of gaming history(or will get back ported like Angrybirds). "

    So: buying One games damages the gaming industry and the historical preservation of the gaming industry. Buying Android software (for example) doesn't, and you simply don't care about the... smartphone software industry (because it's not part of the "gaming industry" ). Yes/no?

    I'm not sure I've quite got that right, because that conclusion seems at odds with what you said the other day. By "At the point a product removes consumer rights in such a draconian way, the change in relationship to lose the perpetual license to those single player experiences... become priceless", I would have thought that you'd absolutely be against smartphone software where the product removes consumer rights in an even more severe way (and with Sony's support, no less!). (And it goes without saying that you hate Kindle, but that's a whole other topic)

    Enlighten me, vizzy!

    Edit: grrr, EG's close-quotes-close-parenthesis-smiley glitch! Worse than DRM! :mad:
    Look at RightBean's comment below yours, I'm perfectly in alignment with that viewpoint, so it seems like others aren't suffering with your personal reading comprehension issues of my comments.

    It is fun that we can have more rounds of you shuffling my quotes to produce some quasi argument I didn't make for you to interpret as hypocrisy, but your reason for this is presumably to discredit my opinion to mitigate the size of fallout from the cluster bomb MS (and possibly Sony) are dropping on gaming with X1/PS4.

    Just to answer your previous questions, yes consoles(and arcade) did kickstart the “3D hardware accelerated” gaming while PCs were still using 2D accelerators and PVS algorithms on the CPU for all but the top (+£200 Titan esq owning) customers as it took until Quake3/UE2 and Pentium MMX/Pentium 2 before commodity 3D accelerators were standard in most PCs.

    By and large the “App stores” are not the games industry, in the same way the free sky box interactive games weren't the games industry. There will be some exceptions, where the work produced is both innovative and the R&D cost was sustainable from the game's sales, instead of some re-tasked console middleware, IP or gameplay mechanics that have been ported, but no, it isn't the games industry. If the primary purpose (of mobile communication and the internet) ceased on phones and tablets then the platform would be dead, unlike say the handhelds/consoles(or pc hardware as a console) that provide a games platform primarily.
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