Depressive/Suicidal Metal - Shining and all that, and not only Metal Page 2

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  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 20:57:32 27,276 posts
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    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 20:58:11 27,276 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    Indeed. They were one of my favourite bands in my teens, along with Burzum.
    Burzum? Isn't that the infamous murderer's band? Also a big old white supremacist twat?

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • warlockuk 30 Apr 2013 21:04:50 19,142 posts
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    GuiltySpark wrote:
    That Burzum track is awful : (

    I'm not sure how anyone can enjoy those vocals. But then again, it does sound like a VHS tape so I'll forgive it slightly!
    I think the production etc is on purpose...
    Doesn't really sound that depressing either.

    BillMurray wrote:
    Bongripper are the tits.
    Chamone.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • BillMurray 30 Apr 2013 21:14:47 7,690 posts
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    Not happy at all I missed them play earlier in the month.

    Edit* I should go actually read the rest of this thread now.

    Edited by BillMurray at 21:16:37 30-04-2013
  • RedSparrows 30 Apr 2013 22:15:37 22,219 posts
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    Needless and entirely self-interested addendum: I was not saying Koestler was a great artist. Far from it. But he was a useful example.

    Carry on!
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 22:38:59 27,276 posts
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    What about The Downward Spiral? That's pretty damn bleak.

    Also, moving further away from metal, The Holy Bible by the Manics. 4st 7lbs, INtense Humming of Evil, Archives of Pain.... That's probably the bleakest album I've ever listened to, in terms of its incredible cynicism about the human race and our capacity to fuck ourselves and each other over, It's pretty damn relentless in that regard.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 22:39:51 30-04-2013

    Edited by darkmorgado at 22:42:01 30-04-2013

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  • FuzzyDuck 30 Apr 2013 22:48:18 4,002 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Graveland wrote:
    Indeed. They were one of my favourite bands in my teens, along with Burzum.
    Burzum? Isn't that the infamous murderer's band? Also a big old white supremacist twat?
    That's the chap.

    Great discussion.

    I wouldn't be a big fan of most of the bands being discussed (although I investigated them when I had a much narrower musical palette, so maybe a revisit is warranted), but I think the most relevant example of the "who the artist is" spoiling the art for me is Dissection/Jon Nödtveidt. I get about 15 minutes into one of their albums and turn it off in sheer disgust at who he was. Despite the fucker being dead, I still feel uncomfortable listening to him. Faust is close behind.

    As for for the original thread discussion, Ulver's 'A Voice Enchants'always leaves me in a dark and sombre mood. I won't go into detail but it became the soundtrack to a very dark period of my life and it introduced a bizarre sense of calm to everything.

    Edited by FuzzyDuck at 23:05:10 30-04-2013
  • FabricatedLunatic 30 Apr 2013 22:56:32 12,997 posts
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    I used to listen to a lot of doom, especially funeral doom. Not so much these days but there are a few albums I still go back to every now and then.

    Evoken - In Pestilence, Burning

    Skepticism - The March and the Stream

    Katatonia - Gateways of Bereavement

    Mournful Congregation - The Epitome of Gods and Men Alike

    Pantheist - Don't Mourn
  • DrStrangelove 30 Apr 2013 23:21:10 3,585 posts
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    warlockuk wrote:
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    That Burzum track is awful : (

    I'm not sure how anyone can enjoy those vocals. But then again, it does sound like a VHS tape so I'll forgive it slightly!
    I think the production etc is on purpose...
    Doesn't really sound that depressing either.
    It is on purpose, as with most of "true" black metal, which is a decidedly low-fi affair. Varg once stated that when he went to a studio to record an album, he asked the guy from the studio for his worst mic, and ended up recording the vocals with a PC headset.

    I do think though that some of Burzum has a depressive tone, especially the Hvis Lyset Tar Oss album. Which contains lines like "we didn't die--we have never lived". Sure, I might project here, but it has that depressive vibe to me.
  • DrStrangelove 30 Apr 2013 23:24:18 3,585 posts
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    More aggro-depressive stuff, Cubanate: Voids. One of my favourites.

    I'm in a cold grey room
    With a 40 watt light bulb
    Sick to death of it all

  • DrStrangelove 1 May 2013 00:11:08 3,585 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    What about The Downward Spiral? That's pretty damn bleak.
    Oh yes, that's a big one.

    he couldn't believe how easy it was
    he put the gun into his face
    bang!
    so much blood from such a tiny little hole

    problems have solutions
    a lifetime of fucking things up fixed in one determined flash


    I read somewhere that Trent wanted to have a "kill yourself" call in the booklet, but for some reason the publisher didn't like the idea.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 00:14:52 01-05-2013
  • FuzzyDuck 1 May 2013 00:28:48 4,002 posts
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    Yeah, not really into the music of The Downward Spiral (although I do have the album on CD somewhere), but the lyrics are a veritable quagmire of despair, seriously bleak reading/listening.

    Edited by FuzzyDuck at 00:34:31 01-05-2013
  • DrStrangelove 1 May 2013 01:10:50 3,585 posts
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    Bethlehem - Krankgeburt (Thorn version)



    Bethlehem is an obscenely unknown German "Dark Metal" band with huge talent and influence on black metal, especially the suicidal/depressive stuff. Main influence of Kvarforth (Shining) btw.

    Speaking of which:



    Edited by DrStrangelove at 01:15:19 01-05-2013
  • spamdangled 1 May 2013 01:49:30 27,276 posts
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    FuzzyDuck wrote:
    Yeah, not really into the music of The Downward Spiral (although I do have the album on CD somewhere), but the lyrics are a veritable quagmire of despair, seriously bleak reading/listening.
    It makes sense when you realise that he was actually on the edge of a full-on nervous breakdown and a descent into drug addiction at the time.

    He personally considers the Fragile to be even bleaker from a conceptual standpoint, as TDW is about stripping your life down piece by piece and rejecting it all, whereas the Fragile starts at the bottom, attempts to rebuild that life and come to terms with everything with moderate success, but ultimately ends up worse than before - the album begins with "Somewhat damaged" and ends with "Ripe (with Decay)". The heavy use of string instruments on that album in comparison to his other work was deliberate due to the inherent "imperfection" of string instruments at replicating notes.

    Another bit of trivia: Fight Club was written while listening to The Downward Spiral (which could explain a lot).

    Edited by darkmorgado at 01:50:23 01-05-2013

    Edited by darkmorgado at 01:50:54 01-05-2013

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  • spamdangled 1 May 2013 01:53:46 27,276 posts
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    Another NIN release: Year Zero. Not just bleak, but fucking apocalyptic (it ends with the heavily-hinted at destruction of the entire human race at the hands of a supernatural force disgusted with humanity's utter failure to improve themselves).

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  • warlockuk 1 May 2013 09:12:05 19,142 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    I do think though that some of Burzum has a depressive tone, especially the Hvis Lyset Tar Oss album. Which contains lines like "we didn't die--we have never lived". Sure, I might project here, but it has that depressive vibe to me.
    I think bleak would be a better word than depressive; there's a certain amount of nihilism involved, but I don't feel sad or depressed about it.

    Maybe I'm too happy a chappy :) I have been known to give it the Saturday Night Fever treatment near the front of a stage while Immortal are playing.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • warlockuk 1 May 2013 09:14:36 19,142 posts
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    I wouldn't really call Varg a Nazi as such, though he does have certain nationalistic views and did come out with some utter crap while he was in jail. I think separating art from artist is possible, but in some cases tricky.
    I guess everyone can appreciate the work that goes into building and decorating cathedrals without having to fall to their knees to worship an invisible man because he has an awesome shame-palace.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • warlockuk 1 May 2013 09:15:17 19,142 posts
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    Weird, when replying to threads the ignore breaks.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • RedSparrows 1 May 2013 09:35:28 22,219 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    Not meaning to dredge up the previous discussion on page one, but I sincerely believe that it's possible to separate art from its creator. However, our own moral/political compass can certainly influence our decision in whether to pursue particular artists before we've even sampled their art. Personally, I think that this is a flaw on the individual's part as they are blurring the boundary between art and the artist.

    Does an artist's worldview automatically manifest itself in their art? No. To suggest that it does is to argue that humans are one dimensional beings. However, I can certainly understand the feeling of unease that people get when they discover unsavoury truths about certain artists. But it comes back round to my point of art being viewed independently from its creator. If Burzum was a music group founded by an anonymous creator there'd be no sense of controversy in liking the music. The fact that Burzum is the creation of a homicidal Nazi doesn't automatically imbue the music with the same qualities. The lyrics do not espouse Nazi ideology, so I personally don't believe it's justified in viewing them as one and the same.
    An 'artist's worldview doesn't automatically manifest itself, no, but I think that an 'artist' (we're being broad here: not saying Burzum isn't art, never listened, but want to be clear of broad nature) has to put something of themselves in their creation: otherwise where does the inspiration come from? It's not one dimensional to consider art as a creation of a creator, and that that creator has only so much control over what they put in: conscious/unconscious, aware/unaware, genius/accident. That works both ways, of course.

    There are definitely explicit references: words, symbols. And then there are abstract: musical, visual, tactile tricks that people employ, and you need training to decipher, if the genre is run in schema (e.g., broadly, classical music).

    I understand your argument re: if Burzum was founded by someone much less offensive, then the music would feel different. You are correct, I think, that this suggests a certain discord between our appreciation the art and the artist - that you could enjoy the former if you thought differently of the latter. But I can understand why someone might dislike it only because of the their knowledge of the creator. It might be a 'flaw' (by what moral scale? The Romantic notion of expression is good, regardless?), but it's an entirely understandable one, because I don't think you can ever entirely separate art and artist. The 'message', if there is one, does not automatically manifest itself, no: but neither does the art automatically become totally distinct from the creator.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 09:37:13 01-05-2013
  • itsoldsquarejaw 1 May 2013 10:12:53 193 posts
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    Edited by itsoldsquarejaw at 10:15:27 01-05-2013
  • RedSparrows 1 May 2013 10:26:58 22,219 posts
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    I saw a bit of Wolves in the Throne Room live. Intense isn't the word.
  • itsoldsquarejaw 1 May 2013 10:49:16 193 posts
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    Yeah, they're more an album band. They were rubbish at ATP last year. Rubbish.

    I'm only chiming in here because I saw Pantheist and know their drummer, so thought I'd do a drive-by Youtubing of Fen who're supporting Allagoch now (and by way of Inception, Pantheist supported Fen in Feb). They're mates of mine and fit in with the theme of the thread - enjoy!
  • Dr.Haggard 1 May 2013 12:36:51 4,151 posts
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    I love WIITR, though I've yet to catch them live. They're actually quite relevant to this discussion since they're kind of BM without the black, and thankfully there's a lot of that these days. It's a stylistic influence only, with none of the genre's silly legacy.

    I guess WIITR are 'Eco/pagan Black Metal' if they need a label :)

    Re Agalloch (again BM in style only AFAIK) I really wish they'd stop trying to be so 'troo' and get a decent production. And a drummer who can keep time while they're at it. Marrow of the Spirit was dreadful in both regards, and virtually unlistenable as a result IMO. Ashes Against The Grain was and is utterly sublime though.

    Personally I find it virtually impossible to separate art from artist, but as with everything there are degrees. Not the best example, but Dave Mustaine being a twat with some questionable (to put it mildly) views wouldn't stop me listening to Megadeth (their output in recent years does that job!), but I can't listen to Burzum despite actually liking some of his stuff, Filosofem in particular.

    I think there may be a factor at play here which hasn't been mentioned as far as I can tell, which is that some people are drawn to certain musicians because of the artist's extreme views - and in Varg's case his crimes - despite finding them abhorrent.

    With this kind of music in particular the extra dimension that adds to the experience is perfectly synchronised to the overall mood, and so only serves to enhance the listening experience. Therefore the art is very much linked to its creator, but his or her views enhance the music by virtue of the listener's repulsion, not endorsement.

    In short, for some, listening to dark atmospheric music made by a neo-nazi arsonist murderer provides a substantially more intense sensation than, say, listening to dark atmospheric music made by a middle class chap from Bristol who lives with his mum.

    Edit: In fact doesn't this explain the only reason why anyone would ever listen to the likes of GG Allin, for example?

    Edited by Dr.Haggard at 12:45:44 01-05-2013
  • warlockuk 1 May 2013 12:38:59 19,142 posts
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    itsoldsquarejaw wrote:
    Yeah, they're more an album band. They were rubbish at ATP last year. Rubbish.

    I'm only chiming in here because I saw Pantheist and know their drummer, so thought I'd do a drive-by Youtubing of Fen who're supporting Allagoch now (and by way of Inception, Pantheist supported Fen in Feb). They're mates of mine and fit in with the theme of the thread - enjoy!
    I saw 'em the other year at some really poncey venue in Manchester... was bored out of my tree.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • itsoldsquarejaw 1 May 2013 13:02:21 193 posts
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    My mate from Fen was really looking forward to it and we stood there for about ten minutes or so before getting a beer. The lack of energy and atmosphere was astounding. You can't really blame the venue either; Sleep followed in the main room and knocked it out of the park, plus the dim Alexandra Palace room they were in and great sound system meant they had no excuse. None.
  • Beetroot_Bertie 1 May 2013 13:13:41 292 posts
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    I guess this is quite well known but it always tugs at my emotions (and tear ducts).



    Edit: That Ulver track is great Fuzzy Duck. Not really heard much by them since The William Blake album and Perdition City but I think I'll check out more.

    And Neurosis...



    Edited by Beetroot_Bertie at 13:16:11 01-05-2013

    Edited by Beetroot_Bertie at 13:37:56 01-05-2013
  • riz23 1 May 2013 14:10:21 1,227 posts
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    Loving it all, if that's the right term for this. So far I've bought that We Lost The Sea album and some MDB.
    Added some more to the wish list.
    I'm going to see Sigur Ros in November and it looks like the latest album will be a much heavier affair. Could be an enjoyingly bleak gig!
  • Dr.Haggard 1 May 2013 14:26:45 4,151 posts
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    I might as well contribute something more than boring words to this excellent thread, so here's some very random stuff that popped into my head:

    The wonderful, short-lived Mare


    Eluvium


    Dead Can Dance


    Wolves In The Throne Room


    Silver Mt. Zion


    Transmission0


    Process Of Guilt


    And finally, possibly the two greatest second-halfs-of-songs ever recorded :)

    Cult Of Luna (I will never love anything as much as I love the last 9 minutes of this song)


    Isis


    Edited by Dr.Haggard at 14:29:27 01-05-2013
  • RedSparrows 1 May 2013 14:56:43 22,219 posts
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    A lot of good music in here (Eluvium, HOOOO), but is it really 'depressive/suicidal metal'?

    I'm one to talk about thread derails, I know...
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