Chivalry Page 2

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  • Khanivor 17 Apr 2013 16:05:49 40,938 posts
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    I think there's a difference between complementing someone on their new clothes or not pushing them into a puddle and actively adapting your behaviour based simply on whether the person has tits.

    There will always be something you could label sexism. Is it sexist that I can wander around with no top on in the summer and not get in trouble? Is it sexist that I can have facial and body hair without being looked on as a freak? At the end of the day, the sexes are different - duh - and will be treated accordingly.

    To look at it from another angle, is it ageist to not allow kids to drive or to discourage pensioners from bungie jumping?
  • ZuluHero 17 Apr 2013 16:05:52 4,201 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    I think in this day and age men could choose to accept the role of the gentleman, giving up seats to young women and all that.
    I just don't see how that isn't intrinsically sexist.

    I suppose you could argue it's somehow "post-feminist" - recognising the equality of women yet embracing the spirit gentlemanly behaviour at the same time. That just kind of feels like bollocks though.
    Oh ffs, Just give her a friendly tap on the bum and tell her you agree with her.

    :p

    Edited by ZuluHero at 16:06:26 17-04-2013
  • chopsen 17 Apr 2013 16:06:17 16,125 posts
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    meme wrote:
    I agree with kal, but it also goes into competition to how I was raised. Every time a situation like that happens I end up with basically this debate internalised.
    Does that mean you stand there for ages waiting for them to come through the door, then slam it in their face at the last minute?
  • Deckard1 17 Apr 2013 16:07:06 28,713 posts
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    I fucking hate it when people hold the door open for too long and they make you feel like you've got to jog to catch up with them, thus expending more energy than you would have opening the fucking door in the first place.

    But yeah, I pretty much act with the same level as politeness with men as I do woman, doesn't everyone now? I haven't seen anyone laying their jacket over a puddle so the fair maiden doth not wet her feet for a while.

    I sometimes give my jacket to my girlfriend if we're out and she's cold though, I dunno if that makes me some kind of sexist monster?
  • quadfather 17 Apr 2013 16:07:33 12,869 posts
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    ZuluHero wrote:
    I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).

    I do this. Isn't it based on the fact that if a car goes by in the rain, you'll get splashed but not the woman?

    psn quaddy456, Dark Souls tips

  • Khanivor 17 Apr 2013 16:08:16 40,938 posts
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    Cunts who don't say thank you when you do that really piss me off. I could open a whole can of worms by mentioning a regular observation I've made here based on a characteristic which seems linked to the frequency of saying thanks. But I shan't. It's not Friday.
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 16:08:19 88,406 posts
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    quadfather wrote:
    ZuluHero wrote:
    I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).

    I do this. Isn't it based on the fact that if a car goes by in the rain, you'll get splashed but not the woman?
    I think it's so that if you choose to attack her, you've blocked her route of escape.
  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:09:16
    ZuluHero wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    I think in this day and age men could choose to accept the role of the gentleman, giving up seats to young women and all that.
    I just don't see how that isn't intrinsically sexist.

    I suppose you could argue it's somehow "post-feminist" - recognising the equality of women yet embracing the spirit gentlemanly behaviour at the same time. That just kind of feels like bollocks though.
    Oh ffs, Just give her a friendly tap on the bum and tell her you agree with her.
    :D
  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:09:37
    @Mr_Sleep A very good point. I think I'll spend a week deliberatley slamming doors in to peoples faces and compare the pleasure I get from that with the pleasure derived from being courteous. Whatever gives me greater pleasure, is what I'll do from now on.

    But then I also put cats in bins so I can walk round the block only to be the one to happen along and "rescue" said animal.

    Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:10:18 17-04-2013
  • ZuluHero 17 Apr 2013 16:09:47 4,201 posts
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    quadfather wrote:
    ZuluHero wrote:
    I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).

    I do this. Isn't it based on the fact that if a car goes by in the rain, you'll get splashed but not the woman?
    Yep. And on the 'old days' when people used to throw their crap out their windows they were out of that splash zone too! :)
  • L_Franko Moderator 17 Apr 2013 16:10:25 9,694 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)
    In my life I have know women that probably would question out loud the action of someone offering them a seat or flat out refuse the offer. Not in a nasty way mind.

    I'll offer my seat to a lady I know but will have second thoughts about it for a stranger. Things can easily be blown way out of proportion these days.
  • Deckard1 17 Apr 2013 16:11:31 28,713 posts
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    2 people I'd offer my seat to - pregnant and old. And maybe a mong.
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 16:12:47 88,406 posts
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    L_Franko wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)
    In my life I have know women that probably would question out loud the action of someone offering them a seat or flat out refuse the offer. Not in a nasty way mind.

    I'll offer my seat to a lady I know but will have second thoughts about it for a stranger. Things can easily be blown way out of proportion these days.
    The more common situation is when a seat becomes available equidistant to a man and a woman. I would say most times this happens the man will offer the seat to the woman, but wouldn't if it were a man.

    I have to admit, I do this as well. You just feel such a cunt taking the seat if a woman is standing there.
  • Deckard1 17 Apr 2013 16:13:48 28,713 posts
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    Fuck that, take the seat and then just pat your knee and wink at her.
  • chopsen 17 Apr 2013 16:15:26 16,125 posts
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    If I was in competition for anyone for a seat I would probably offer it to the other person, even if it was man. Mainly because I'm a complete pushover.
  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:15:37
    L_Franko wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)
    In my life I have know women that probably would question out loud the action of someone offering them a seat or flat out refuse the offer. Not in a nasty way mind.

    I'll offer my seat to a lady I know but will have second thoughts about it for a stranger. Things can easily be blown way out of proportion these days.
    Agreed, most women I know would laugh out loud if I offered them my seat. "The Perfect Gentleman" doesn't exist any more and is as outdated as the Robertsons Gollywog. Times have moved on and whilst most of us move on with them there are still women, and men out there with the belief that men should extend extra courtesy towards a female based on gender. Thankfully these people are now fewer and fewer.

    I'm basing this on a scuffle I had in a nightclub a few years ago, suddenly found myself picked on by some guy and his manky bird. Never met them before but they obviously didn't like my smooth moves on the dance floor. Whilst he acted all hard and came in with a few shoves, it was his mrs who bottled me over the head. If the bouncers hadn't intervened I would have lamped her one regardless of whether she needs to sit down to take a piss or not.

    Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:15:58 17-04-2013

    Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:17:03 17-04-2013
  • L_Franko Moderator 17 Apr 2013 16:16:02 9,694 posts
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    kalel wrote:

    The more common situation is when a seat becomes available equidistant to a man and a woman. I would say most times this happens the man will offer the seat to the woman, but wouldn't if it were a man.

    I have to admit, I do this as well. You just feel such a cunt taking the seat if a woman is standing there.
    I agree, I would do the same in that situation.
  • SClaw 17 Apr 2013 16:17:07 826 posts
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    This is an interesting subject.

    Iím going to throw a fox amongst the chickens by saying Iím utterly unchivalrous and, in the eyes of the masses, probably downright rude. Apparently.

    I wonít hold a door open for anyone, I wonít offer to help you lift your (pram, shopping trolley dealy, etc, whatever) off the train, I wonít give up my seat, I wonít help you carry heavy things. Why? Because itís fucking rude and presumptuous for anyone to assume their help is required.

    You offer your seat to an old person (or either gender) on the train? Fuck you. How do you know that old person is weaker than you and canít stand? They could have just come from a bloody marathon, while you nearly died coming down the stairs to get to your train? And even if they are OBVIOUSLY weaker they may still want to endure it for their pride, because they are allowed that despite being decrepit in your eyes. Incidentally, the ďyouĒ in that isnít directed at anyone specifically Ė just every smug tosser who thinks they are being ďpoliteĒ with these things.

    Women. Ha. Wheel chair users, people with walking sticks, the blind. I donít go out of my way for any of them. I just treat the fuckers as if they were regular, completely capable people who are totally capable of doing things for themselves. Or, you know, capable of asking if they canít because they are adults regardless of their gender or physical capabilities.

    Iíve often been criticised for this apparently aberrant behaviour, but people miss the fact Iíll jump to help anyone if ASK ME FOR IT.

    Jumping in and helping without being asked? Thatís not chivalrous at all. Itís presumptuous at best and patronising at worst. I absolutely hate it.
  • Deckard1 17 Apr 2013 16:18:40 28,713 posts
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    You sound like a bit of a bell end. No offence.
  • smoothpete 17 Apr 2013 16:19:07 31,574 posts
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    What fucks me off is all the advertising where men are portrayed as morons. No way would that be on telly if the genders were reversed. There is something to be said for being a "gentleman", at least it's adhering to some sense of having testicles, not like the emasculated and / or moronic man image put forward in the media.
  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:19:27
    @Deckard1 He's got a point though.

    Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:20:01 17-04-2013
  • Mr_Sleep 17 Apr 2013 16:19:37 17,182 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    How often do other people consider that their acts of politeness are actually slightly self serving? It's a weird quirk that the politeness of opening a door at least somewhat makes you feel good about yourself. I have held a door open for ages when really I should have just walked on but while it seems like the right thing to do it also gives me a little bit of pleasure to be thanked for something so unnecessary.
    There's some name for this in Catholic theology where there's a paradox in charity and pride being linked (one is a key virtue and the other a mortal sin). Can't remember what it's called but I remember my father in law explaining it to me once.
    It's a fair point too. Not that I think it's a bad thing at all, if I hold a door open for a woman and she thinks that's kind of me and expresses that then we both go away happy. I always find it interesting the reaction when someone doesn't thank you. There's often a slight twinge of, "why did I bother then?", which is kind of stupid as I bothered partly for my own reasons.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Mr_Sleep 17 Apr 2013 16:20:37 17,182 posts
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    BillCityfingers wrote:
    @Mr_Sleep A very good point. I think I'll spend a week deliberatley slamming doors in to peoples faces and compare the pleasure I get from that with the pleasure derived from being courteous. Whatever gives me greater pleasure, is what I'll do from now on.

    But then I also put cats in bins so I can walk round the block only to be the one to happen along and "rescue" said animal.
    Let me know how your experiment goes.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 16:20:37 88,406 posts
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    I do actually agree that it's a shame people aren't more comfortable asking for help when they need it. It would solve a lot of these issues.

    I have actually had a woman ask me for a seat on the tube before. She didn't tell me why she wanted it, but I assumed she had good reason if she asked, and gave it up.
  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:21:40
    @Mr_Sleep I will. I may get beaten up a few times.
  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:24:21
    Holding a door open for someone isn't assuming they'd need help to open a door.
  • joeymoto108 17 Apr 2013 16:25:07 650 posts
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    SClaw wrote:
    This is an interesting subject.

    Iím going to throw a fox amongst the chickens by saying Iím utterly unchivalrous and, in the eyes of the masses, probably downright rude. Apparently.

    I wonít hold a door open for anyone, I wonít offer to help you lift your (pram, shopping trolley dealy, etc, whatever) off the train, I wonít give up my seat, I wonít help you carry heavy things. Why? Because itís fucking rude and presumptuous for anyone to assume their help is required.

    You offer your seat to an old person (or either gender) on the train? Fuck you. How do you know that old person is weaker than you and canít stand? They could have just come from a bloody marathon, while you nearly died coming down the stairs to get to your train? And even if they are OBVIOUSLY weaker they may still want to endure it for their pride, because they are allowed that despite being decrepit in your eyes. Incidentally, the ďyouĒ in that isnít directed at anyone specifically Ė just every smug tosser who thinks they are being ďpoliteĒ with these things.

    Women. Ha. Wheel chair users, people with walking sticks, the blind. I donít go out of my way for any of them. I just treat the fuckers as if they were regular, completely capable people who are totally capable of doing things for themselves. Or, you know, capable of asking if they canít because they are adults regardless of their gender or physical capabilities.

    Iíve often been criticised for this apparently aberrant behaviour, but people miss the fact Iíll jump to help anyone if ASK ME FOR IT.

    Jumping in and helping without being asked? Thatís not chivalrous at all. Itís presumptuous at best and patronising at worst. I absolutely hate it.
    I'm pretty sure you're gonna die alone. You might want to rethink your life.

    'Look at you, hacker: a pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?'

  • Pac-man-ate-my-wife 17 Apr 2013 16:25:50 7,012 posts
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    @SClaw You could just ask politely if they need help. Seems straightforward enough.
  • Mola_Ram 17 Apr 2013 16:26:01 7,682 posts
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    I was brought up to be gentlemanly, and while I basically agree about the sexism thing, and while I don't go overboard with it, it's still something that I just generally do and not even think about. Kind of a hard habit to break, I've found.

    I hold doors open for basically anyone, though.
  • Mr_Sleep 17 Apr 2013 16:26:06 17,182 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I have actually had a woman ask me for a seat on the tube before. She didn't tell me why she wanted it, but I assumed she had good reason if she asked, and gave it up.
    I have a bad back and so long tube journeys stood up do me no good at all, however I have never once asked a woman if I could have their seat. Otherwise I look fine so I can't see how someone would think to give up their seat. In your previous example I almost always rush to get a seat first and it's amazing the looks you get off some people if you beat a woman to the seat!

    You are a factory of sadness.

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