Chivalry

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  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 15:36:27 86,427 posts
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    Been having a bit of a work debate with someone on the concept of chivalry.

    Her view is that chivalry is a wonderful thing, and that it still has a place in modern non-sexist society.

    My view is that it is basically the positive discrimination side of sexism, and while it may appear to be a nice thing, it is intrinsically linked with the belief that women are the weaker, more feeble sex.

    In short, I think chivalry IS sexism.

    Interested in other thoughts.
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 15:38:28 86,427 posts
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    Note - I'm not talking about the more traditional "Knight" related thing. More just things men "should" do for women like giving up their seat.
  • Chopsen 17 Apr 2013 15:42:19 15,748 posts
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    Yeah, I'm with you.

    I hold the door open for people for example, and I don't know if women think I'm doing that because they're women. I just view it as basic politeness. If you do that for women and not for men, I'd find that a bit weird.
  • TheSaint 17 Apr 2013 15:42:44 14,201 posts
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    Probably a thin line between chivalry and general politeness in modern society.
  • HarryPalmer 17 Apr 2013 15:43:47 3,124 posts
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    Whenever I hold a door open for a woman I always think: "I'm in there."
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 15:46:01 86,427 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    Probably a thin line between chivalry and general politeness in modern society.
    The line is gender based.

    If someone needs help then I'll help - carrying something heavy up stairs, holding a door open, giving them a seat on the tube etc.

    That's just politeness and common courtesy. If I do it because they're a woman, it's chivalry/sexist.
  • joeymoto108 17 Apr 2013 15:46:01 628 posts
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    Guys who define themselves to be chivalrous tend to be fucking pricks.

    Edited by joeymoto108 at 15:46:14 17-04-2013

    'Look at you, hacker: a pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?'

  • Pac-man-ate-my-wife 17 Apr 2013 15:46:06 7,004 posts
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    It's basically politeness, isn't it? And my view should be applied to men and women directly.

    If I see someone struggling with a heavy bag, I help. If I see someone old or infirm needing a seat, I'll let them have mine. If someone is being nasty to someone, I'll try and help diffuse the situation.

    Doesn't matter if they are female or male.

    EDIT: Everything I said has been said already. CURSE YOU SLOW FINGERS!!

    Edited by Pac-man-ate-my-wife at 15:47:05 17-04-2013
  • L_Franko Moderator 17 Apr 2013 15:46:43 9,694 posts
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    I don't see it as being sexist, I see it as being polite but then I'll do a social favour (is that a thing) for anyone. I have noticed that there can be a difference in the way I perform these actions though, for example:
    I'll hold the door for anyone but when holding a door for a man it will be after I've walked through the door but for a woman it will be before to let her go through first. I don't even think about it, just seem like an automatic action.
  • graysonavich 17 Apr 2013 15:48:51 7,309 posts
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    HOT TOPIC
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 15:49:50 86,427 posts
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    The person I'm arguing with thinks men should automatically offer their seat (on the tube/bus whatever) to a woman.

    This isn't an age/disabled/pregnant/whatever thing. This is a young healthy able-bodied woman.
  • Khanivor 17 Apr 2013 15:51:06 40,403 posts
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    Well, she can get fucked.
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 15:53:58 86,427 posts
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    Basically she's lamenting the loss of "the gentleman".

    My view is that the behaviour she is talking about it actually sexist. It's positive discrimination instead of negative, but still discriminatory.

    She is not in agreement.
  • Chopsen 17 Apr 2013 15:54:12 15,748 posts
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    I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)

    Edited by Chopsen at 15:54:52 17-04-2013
  • ZuluHero 17 Apr 2013 15:54:36 4,036 posts
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    Chivalry in this context is actually a misnomer, what you actually mean is etiquette. And there are different etiquettes depending on gender (just like there are different etiquette expectations out of different social classes).

    I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).

    I'm sorry if i've ever walked past anyone and caused offence, like L_Franko, it's a bit hard wired now, I do it without thinking - but in this instance I doubt anyone ever really notices! :p

    /silver spoon :p

    Edited by ZuluHero at 15:57:35 17-04-2013
  • Deckard1 17 Apr 2013 15:54:39 27,268 posts
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    There was a young girl getting raped in the car park last night, I was gonna help but I didn't want to steal her girl power anymore than it already was being. I just cheered him on.
  • billythekid 17 Apr 2013 15:55:16 11,035 posts
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    Cake and eat it!
  • Mr_Sleep 17 Apr 2013 15:56:20 16,855 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    She is not in agreement.
    She's wrong. It is sexist, it's discriminating a persons actions and reactions based on the sex of another person. It's about the best level of discrimination possible but it's still being deferential towards her just because of her sex.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 15:57:22 86,427 posts
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    ZuluHero wrote:
    Chivalry in this context is actually a misnomer, what you actually mean is etiquette. And there are different etiquettes depending on gender (just like there are different etiquettes expected out of social classes).

    I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).
    Hmm. Call it what you like, I don't really see why calling it etiquette rather than chivalry doesn't make it gender based positive discrimination.
  • Khanivor 17 Apr 2013 15:57:31 40,403 posts
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    I think in this day and age men could choose to accept the role of the gentleman, giving up seats to young women and all that. But it should not be expected, anymore than that gentleman should expect the young lady to bear him many children and stay in the kitchen.

    There's comfort to be had in conforming to specific roles but to think that people should automatically conform is very wrong. It also display sa rather shocking lack of self-awareness.
  • Chopsen 17 Apr 2013 15:58:01 15,748 posts
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    But etiquette can get fucked as well.

    It's just social convention, and as soon as it needs to be spelled out and taught explicitly, it becomes archaic. Yeah you have social norms of behaviour, and people generally adopt them because everybody else does, we're social animals, and it smooths things along.

    The minute you have to consult a book to know how to behave on something is the moment you know that behaviour doesn't really matter.
  • ZuluHero 17 Apr 2013 15:58:44 4,036 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    ZuluHero wrote:
    Chivalry in this context is actually a misnomer, what you actually mean is etiquette. And there are different etiquettes depending on gender (just like there are different etiquettes expected out of social classes).

    I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).
    Hmm. Call it what you like, I don't really see why calling it etiquette rather than chivalry doesn't make it gender based positive discrimination.
    I'm just a pedant, sorry! :)
  • TheSaint 17 Apr 2013 15:59:03 14,201 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    The person I'm arguing with thinks men should automatically offer their seat (on the tube/bus whatever) to a woman.

    This isn't an age/disabled/pregnant/whatever thing. This is a young healthy able-bodied woman.
    I assume she is also will to subscribe to her stereotypical gender role of doing all the house work and cooking all the meals.
  • LeoliansBro 17 Apr 2013 15:59:12 43,306 posts
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    I'm polite to women because then they might sleep with me.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 16:00:24 86,427 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    I think in this day and age men could choose to accept the role of the gentleman, giving up seats to young women and all that.
    I just don't see how that isn't intrinsically sexist.

    I suppose you could argue it's somehow "post-feminist" - recognising the equality of women yet embracing the spirit gentlemanly behaviour at the same time. That just kind of feels like bollocks though.
  • Chopsen 17 Apr 2013 16:00:28 15,748 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    There's comfort to be had in conforming to specific roles but to think that people should automatically conform is very wrong. It also display sa rather shocking lack of self-awareness.
    But that is exactly what social norms are all about. They're about shared rules of engagement during social situations. Awkwardness is avoided and all parties are put at ease because they know how the other will act.
  • kinky_mong 17 Apr 2013 16:00:49 9,990 posts
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    Last year I was at some ticket gates exiting the underground, and a middle aged woman was dawdling right by them so I edged in front of her.

    "What ever happened to chivalry?!" she exclaimed.
    "The suffragettes. Deal with it!" I fired back.

    Needless to say, I had the last laugh.

    I'll never get my Orc looking the same again.

  • Mr_Sleep 17 Apr 2013 16:01:46 16,855 posts
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    How often do other people consider that their acts of politeness are actually slightly self serving? It's a weird quirk that the politeness of opening a door at least somewhat makes you feel good about yourself. I have held a door open for ages when really I should have just walked on but while it seems like the right thing to do it also gives me a little bit of pleasure to be thanked for something so unnecessary.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Deleted user 17 April 2013 16:03:51
    I agree with kal, but it also goes into competition to how I was raised. Every time a situation like that happens I end up with basically this debate internalised.
  • kalel 17 Apr 2013 16:04:55 86,427 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    How often do other people consider that their acts of politeness are actually slightly self serving? It's a weird quirk that the politeness of opening a door at least somewhat makes you feel good about yourself. I have held a door open for ages when really I should have just walked on but while it seems like the right thing to do it also gives me a little bit of pleasure to be thanked for something so unnecessary.
    There's some name for this in Catholic theology where there's a paradox in charity and pride being linked (one is a key virtue and the other a mortal sin). Can't remember what it's called but I remember my father in law explaining it to me once.
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