Gender equality and earnings in sport Page 4

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  • LeoliansBro 9 Apr 2013 11:25:06 43,246 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    It's certainly one good thing about the rise of e-games competitions.
    Not that women are particularly well-represented in those either.
    That's down to 'want' rather than 'could' though.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • nickthegun 9 Apr 2013 11:26:38 58,885 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I guess that's where I come out. Now go home and try telling your wife that ;)
    We have actually had a similar discussion after she I laughed at womens football.

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  • graysonavich 9 Apr 2013 11:27:16 7,309 posts
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    4 pages and no one has linked *that* goal keeper yet?
  • kalel 9 Apr 2013 11:27:29 86,417 posts
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    Whether it will or won't happen is not really the point I'm arguing. I'm simply saying that there's no reason why in principle it should be something than can happen.
  • disusedgenius 9 Apr 2013 11:28:32 5,225 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    That's down to 'want' rather than 'could' though.
    To some degree, yeah. But there's also a lot of typical internet misogyny to wade though which is an unfortunate part of that particular industry. Different issues to physical sports, but still something which needs to be worked on.
  • nickthegun 9 Apr 2013 11:29:35 58,885 posts
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    Like when teams blood 15 year olds, if youre good enough, you get played.

    There may be no women who can compete with men on level terms at the moment, but thats not to say that there wont be and when one emerges, she should get a chance to play with the big boys.

    I agree, you couldnt just chuck women onto the field at the moment in the same way that you couldnt chuck a conference player into the premier league. But the skill gap is slowly closing.

    Edited by nickthegun at 11:30:47 09-04-2013

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  • graysonavich 9 Apr 2013 11:31:20 7,309 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    That's down to 'want' rather than 'could' though.
    To some degree, yeah. But there's also a lot of typical internet misogyny to wade though which is an unfortunate part of that particular industry. Different issues to physical sports, but still something which needs to be worked on.
    I'll start taking girl streamers seriously when I see one /without/ their tits out on camera.
  • ram 9 Apr 2013 11:34:46 3,471 posts
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    As if skill and physicality are the only barriers to entry for women. What about charming football fans hurling abuse? Would a woman really want to subject herself to that hatred?

    Sexism at all levels? - ask Sian Massey.
  • LeoliansBro 9 Apr 2013 11:36:26 43,246 posts
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    Yes, women are delicate flowers and we should nurture and protect them from all nasty and horrid things.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Chopsen 9 Apr 2013 11:37:22 15,727 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Whether it will or won't happen is not really the point I'm arguing. I'm simply saying that there's no reason why in principle it should be something than can happen.
    I'm not bothered either way. But the principle that is preventing it from happening is *societal* expectation of what gender equality actually means in practice, and people's expectation of what women's involvement with sport (and their entitlement in sport) is about. The inevitable under-representation of women would be unacceptable, and I can bet you that someone would complain about how, say, all the women are playing in the lower leagues or whatever.
  • kalel 9 Apr 2013 11:38:00 86,417 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    Basically, this isn't going to happen till we have universal unisex everything.
    Well, yeah, I think that's the bigger picture, and this forms a part of that.

    Think you're overstating things somewhat though. Again, in women's tennis we have a mixed game as well as individual ones, and there is parity in pay. There is for all intents and purposes total equality.

    Yes, it's a less physical game and there is no direct physicality like tackles or whatever, but the kind of conversations we're having about football are not unlike the same conversation that were had about women's tennis a hundred years ago.

    What I'm saying is, I suspect we can have a far greater level of equality generally in sport without there first needing to be TOTAL unisex everything everywhere first.
  • Chopsen 9 Apr 2013 11:39:49 15,727 posts
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    Technically, though, mixed doubles is based on positive discrimination and quota based recruitment :)
  • Lukus 9 Apr 2013 11:41:36 19,003 posts
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    Deckard1 wrote:
    Fair enough, agree to disagree then. I don't see how its sexist though. Men and woman are physically very different. It makes perfect sense to me to have separate sports for them.
    Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure how this is even up for debate. Men and women are physically different in general. There's no point denying that. It's a good thing. Mixed teams is one thing, but a team of the best men against a team of the best women, in Rugby for example, would be a complete bloodbath.

    I also think that sports in which physicality is secondary to skill - snooker, darts (giving it the benefit of the doubt as a sport), horse riding (no, jockeys aren't fucking athletes, they're just small and wiry, so physicality is an issue in a different way I guess), motor sport (there's no good reason women can't be as fast), etc. - there's no good reason not to have mixed competitions at the top levels.

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  • Dougs 9 Apr 2013 11:47:42 66,722 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Like when teams blood 15 year olds, if youre good enough, you get played.

    There may be no women who can compete with men on level terms at the moment, but thats not to say that there wont be and when one emerges, she should get a chance to play with the big boys.

    I agree, you couldnt just chuck women onto the field at the moment in the same way that you couldnt chuck a conference player into the premier league. But the skill gap is slowly closing.
    That Brazilian Marta could cut it. She's got both the physicality and skills. But yeah, it won't happen until there is equality across the piece, including perceptions and attitudes. No bloke will go in as hard on a woman (steady) on a football pitch as he would a bloke.

    I find it interesting that on some sports where there is no reason why women couldn't compete equally, they don't or can't. Darts and snooker as examples.

    Edit. Must refresh.

    Edited by Dougs at 11:48:20 09-04-2013
  • kalel 9 Apr 2013 11:50:58 86,417 posts
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    ram wrote:
    As if skill and physicality are the only barriers to entry for women. What about charming football fans hurling abuse? Would a woman really want to subject herself to that hatred?

    Sexism at all levels? - ask Sian Massey.
    I'm not really sure what your point is. Yes, there's lots of other barriers and things that will need to be addressed. So?

    Or are you saying this is a reason why we shouldn't move towards women in games?
  • mal 9 Apr 2013 11:51:16 22,341 posts
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    Point of note, all the female snooker players that wikipedia has chosen to note have all switched to pool in more recent years.

    Not sure that says much other than that Wikipedia editors prefer women's pool to women's snooker.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Deckard1 9 Apr 2013 11:52:31 27,255 posts
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    And another thing, wouldn't it further cheapen womans football (or any sports) if the elite few where "given the honour" to compete with the men. I'm sure all the other woman in the womans leagues would be delighted for them.
  • Dougs 9 Apr 2013 11:54:35 66,722 posts
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    mal wrote:
    Point of note, all the female snooker players that wikipedia has chosen to note have all switched to pool in more recent years.

    Not sure that says much other than that Wikipedia editors prefer women's pool to women's snooker.
    Probably as that's where the quick cash is I guess. If there's no market, there's no funding, sponsorship or prize money.

    Edit: As a separate sport. No idea why they just don't join the men's. I suppose lack of sponsorship means no Tim to practice, improve etc

    Edited by Dougs at 11:55:38 09-04-2013
  • Lukus 9 Apr 2013 11:58:00 19,003 posts
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    I have a solution to the earnings gap. Only the sexiest sportswomen should be allowed to compete, so they have to be a 7/10, at least. Also, they should compete in bikinis and hotpants as standard.

    That way, more people would tune in and prize money would equal or surpass men's. Sexual equality at last.

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  • kalel 9 Apr 2013 11:59:12 86,417 posts
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    Lukus wrote:
    Deckard1 wrote:
    Fair enough, agree to disagree then. I don't see how its sexist though. Men and woman are physically very different. It makes perfect sense to me to have separate sports for them.
    Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure how this is even up for debate. Men and women are physically different in general. There's no point denying that. It's a good thing. Mixed teams is one thing, but a team of the best men against a team of the best women, in Rugby for example, would be a complete bloodbath.
    I'm at risk of just making the same point over and over again, but nobody is denying that men and women are physically different. This is in fact the essence of my point. They're different, and play sport in different ways and are good at different things.

    Therefore, could you not have a mixed sport that that in theory celebrates these differences, and is all the richer and more entertaining for it?

    to be extremely clear, when I say mixed, I do no not mean men Vs women. I mean mixed MIXED.

    MIXED.
  • Shikasama 9 Apr 2013 12:03:07 6,633 posts
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    Someone has probably already mentioned it but it's an issue that has come up in MMA recently with a a female-male transexual fighter getting media exposure. They are legally a woman but still (despite having all of the operations etc) physically a man, so should they be able to compete in such a physical sport against other women?

    She says that the hormones she takes has destroyed any physical benefits she gets from being a male. Personally I'm not convinced and neither are many doctors associated with the sport, but it's quite an interesting problem.
  • Deckard1 9 Apr 2013 12:03:55 27,255 posts
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    Ok, so do you think it would be good for womans sports to start handpicking the best few to play with the men?
  • nickthegun 9 Apr 2013 12:10:28 58,885 posts
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    You could argue that if a few women played at the top level, earning millions of pounds a year, it would increase interest in womens sports and drag the general standard up.

    Womens football wouldnt be a joke, it would be a feeder league.

    Incredibly hypothetical, but theres no real reason that it would negatively effect it at all. Couldnt make it worse, anyway.

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  • kalel 9 Apr 2013 12:11:49 86,417 posts
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    Deckard1 wrote:
    Ok, so do you think it would be good for womans sports to start handpicking the best few to play with the men?
    Ultimately yes, as it will give the female game profile and validity. As with all moves towards equality, you're going to get accusations of tokenism and abuse and all that along the way, but it's an omelettes/eggs situation.
  • Lukus 9 Apr 2013 12:12:00 19,003 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Lukus wrote:
    Deckard1 wrote:
    Fair enough, agree to disagree then. I don't see how its sexist though. Men and woman are physically very different. It makes perfect sense to me to have separate sports for them.
    Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure how this is even up for debate. Men and women are physically different in general. There's no point denying that. It's a good thing. Mixed teams is one thing, but a team of the best men against a team of the best women, in Rugby for example, would be a complete bloodbath.
    I'm at risk of just making the same point over and over again, but nobody is denying that men and women are physically different. This is in fact the essence of my point. They're different, and play sport in different ways and are good at different things.

    Therefore, could you not have a mixed sport that that in theory celebrates these differences, and is all the richer and more entertaining for it?

    to be extremely clear, when I say mixed, I do no not mean men Vs women. I mean mixed MIXED.

    MIXED.
    Yeah, mixed is great. Although I'm all for the bloodbath too.

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  • Deckard1 9 Apr 2013 12:13:38 27,255 posts
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    You could also argue that womans football would become even more of a joke as all the top players are taken out of the league, thus making it even more difficult for anyone but the elite few to make any kind of career out of it.
  • kalel 9 Apr 2013 12:17:43 86,417 posts
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    Deckard1 wrote:
    You could also argue that womans football would become even more of a joke as all the top players are taken out of the league, thus making it even more difficult for anyone but the elite few to make any kind of career out of it.
    I don't really follow your logic. Why if the top players are taken out, dies it make it "more difficult" for those left? Surely they're in the same position, if not a better position as now they at least have a higher level they know they can reach if they're good enough.
  • nickthegun 9 Apr 2013 12:18:40 58,885 posts
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    This happens everywhere. The EPL cherry picks the best players from all over the world and countries like argentina and brazil still have reasonably competative leagues.

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  • Deleted user 9 April 2013 12:19:25
    kalel wrote:
    Lukus wrote:
    Deckard1 wrote:
    Fair enough, agree to disagree then. I don't see how its sexist though. Men and woman are physically very different. It makes perfect sense to me to have separate sports for them.
    Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure how this is even up for debate. Men and women are physically different in general. There's no point denying that. It's a good thing. Mixed teams is one thing, but a team of the best men against a team of the best women, in Rugby for example, would be a complete bloodbath.
    I'm at risk of just making the same point over and over again, but nobody is denying that men and women are physically different. This is in fact the essence of my point. They're different, and play sport in different ways and are good at different things.

    Therefore, could you not have a mixed sport that that in theory celebrates these differences, and is all the richer and more entertaining for it?

    to be extremely clear, when I say mixed, I do no not mean men Vs women. I mean mixed MIXED.

    MIXED.

    Honest question Kalel - you say that women and men are good at different things in sport. Can you expand on this? Im not sure I agree.
  • SparkyMarky81 9 Apr 2013 12:20:20 562 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    SparkyMarky81 wrote:
    Deckard1 wrote:
    Woman's football is hilariously shit. Sorry if that makes me sexist or whatever, but it's true. There certainly wouldn't be any woman troubling even any of the very worst mens teams, and I can't see it ever changing. Certainly not in my life time. Plus they kick the ball weird. No one wants to see that.
    I have seen some decent outfield players, but what really lets Woman's fotball down is the goalkeepers. They are comically bad!
    Again, your problem is that they are full sized nets and the women arent 6ft+
    True, but that doesn't explain the bird-like flapping when the ball aproaches.
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